Boris13c wrote:I guess I'm not seeing the Alonso hit the same as some of you
yes, Alonso was running full speed at Flacco, but in order to hit Flacco the way he did he needed to dive to get low to hit him
in my view, that dive down towards the sliding Flacco was what made it a dirty hit ... if he was running the same speed at Flacco and remained upright his momentum would have carried him past Flacco, not down into him
once a QB starts to slide feet first, he is down at that point ... so it is up to defenders to know that and to not dive down at them
I think the hit could have been avoided ... I think the forearm to the head that dislodged Flacco's helmet could have been avoided ... the fact Alonso was not suspended has more to do with the NFL front office not having a uniform policy on punishments than anything else ... in a league where a player with a uniform wearing violation can be fined more than a player cheap-shotting someone, the priorities all seem to be off and the stated "concern for player safety" nothing more than mealy mouthed bullshit
The thing is, the dive started BEFORE Flacco sat down. And the wording of the rule even alludes to that. If the QB sits without giving the defender enough time to back off, then the defender can't be penalized for that. That was clearly the case here and the fact that the NFL didn't suspend him strongly suggests that the NFL office agrees with me on this one.
A defender has to commit to going for the tackle at some point. Your analysis ignores that there's no certainty that Flacco was going to give himself up. He just did so too late.
Mikefive's theory: The only time you KNOW that a sports team player, coach or management member is being 100% honest is when they're NOT reciting "the company line".
Boris13c wrote:I guess I'm not seeing the Alonso hit the same as some of you
yes, Alonso was running full speed at Flacco, but in order to hit Flacco the way he did he needed to dive to get low to hit him
in my view, that dive down towards the sliding Flacco was what made it a dirty hit ... if he was running the same speed at Flacco and remained upright his momentum would have carried him past Flacco, not down into him
once a QB starts to slide feet first, he is down at that point ... so it is up to defenders to know that and to not dive down at them
I think the hit could have been avoided ... I think the forearm to the head that dislodged Flacco's helmet could have been avoided ... the fact Alonso was not suspended has more to do with the NFL front office not having a uniform policy on punishments than anything else ... in a league where a player with a uniform wearing violation can be fined more than a player cheap-shotting someone, the priorities all seem to be off and the stated "concern for player safety" nothing more than mealy mouthed bullshit
The thing is, the dive started BEFORE Flacco sat down. And the wording of the rule even alludes to that. If the QB sits without giving the defender enough time to back off, then the defender can't be penalized for that. That was clearly the case here and the fact that the NFL didn't suspend him strongly suggests that the NFL office agrees with me on this one.
A defender has to commit to going for the tackle at some point. Your analysis ignores that there's no certainty that Flacco was going to give himself up. He just did so too late.
my analysis was the defender should have been attacking Flacco as if he was going to remain upright ... hit him in the chest with your shoulder to make a hard clean tackle ... then if he slides and you go over him, no biggie because he's down without a need for a tackle
in your scenario Alonso was already diving to tackle Flacco, which means hitting him low at the knees if Flacco had remained upright ... and isn't there yet another protect-the-QB rule that makes that illegal? or is that just when a QB is in the pocket?
"Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things." George Carlin
Boris13c wrote:I guess I'm not seeing the Alonso hit the same as some of you
yes, Alonso was running full speed at Flacco, but in order to hit Flacco the way he did he needed to dive to get low to hit him
in my view, that dive down towards the sliding Flacco was what made it a dirty hit ... if he was running the same speed at Flacco and remained upright his momentum would have carried him past Flacco, not down into him
once a QB starts to slide feet first, he is down at that point ... so it is up to defenders to know that and to not dive down at them
I think the hit could have been avoided ... I think the forearm to the head that dislodged Flacco's helmet could have been avoided ... the fact Alonso was not suspended has more to do with the NFL front office not having a uniform policy on punishments than anything else ... in a league where a player with a uniform wearing violation can be fined more than a player cheap-shotting someone, the priorities all seem to be off and the stated "concern for player safety" nothing more than mealy mouthed bullshit
The thing is, the dive started BEFORE Flacco sat down. And the wording of the rule even alludes to that. If the QB sits without giving the defender enough time to back off, then the defender can't be penalized for that. That was clearly the case here and the fact that the NFL didn't suspend him strongly suggests that the NFL office agrees with me on this one.
A defender has to commit to going for the tackle at some point. Your analysis ignores that there's no certainty that Flacco was going to give himself up. He just did so too late.
my analysis was the defender should have been attacking Flacco as if he was going to remain upright ... hit him in the chest with your shoulder to make a hard clean tackle ... then if he slides and you go over him, no biggie because he's down without a need for a tackle
in your scenario Alonso was already diving to tackle Flacco, which means hitting him low at the knees if Flacco had remained upright ... and isn't there yet another protect-the-QB rule that makes that illegal? or is that just when a QB is in the pocket?
Once he leaves the pocket the quarterback becomes a runner and you can hit him as you would anyone else.
IMO, the slide should be taken out of football. It puts both the slider and defender in a dangerous position. Also, if you have a helmet on and are on the field of play, no one player should get special treatment. I think these type of football bang bang plays are part of a fast, violent game. If the league is going to try and regulate these plays, it will change the game of football and not for the better.
“Protect this fucking house, go all out, leave that shit out on the field, let’s have some fun, makes some plays baby ” Mitch Trubisky #believethesleeve
Objecting to where Alonso aimed takes out the factors of speed, timing and instinct. It's nice to sit on your couch and say that "he should have aimed..."
These guys move very fast and have to commit to their action seconds before they make contact. Flacco's "slide" could have been a duck when Alonso made his commitment to hit him. Flacco's feet were under him not in front to signify a slide. Flacco wasn't on the ground either.
Appreciate that these defenders are being trained to hit, and have to make decisions in a very narrow window due to their own athleticism and the decisions of their opponents.
I said this in another discussion...Football is still a violent sport, that is still played by violent people, often resulting with violent outcomes. It might not be for everyone to play or watch. Yes there are rules in place to help protect players from getting seriously injured. But those rules don't guarantee player safety.
I will kill you if you cut me at the knees. You will drink with me when invited and stay til I say so. We only listen to American Music. I make men nervous with just my presence. I expect an apology if you hold. I throw linemen at QB's. Believe the Lore!
After the Green / Ramsey fight (which is still BS Ramsey got ejected) and Mike Evans cold-cocking Lattimore and only get's one game does anyone still think that Trevethon's 2 game suspension just?
League office needs to get the hell outta the discipline game. They constantly fudge it up and make themselves look stoopid.
Funkster wrote:IMO, the slide should be taken out of football. It puts both the slider and defender in a dangerous position. Also, if you have a helmet on and are on the field of play, no one player should get special treatment. I think these type of football bang bang plays are part of a fast, violent game. If the league is going to try and regulate these plays, it will change the game of football and not for the better.
Dammit! What is wrong with you?!? There's no place for logic in the NFL!
(I pretty well agree with you.)
Mikefive's theory: The only time you KNOW that a sports team player, coach or management member is being 100% honest is when they're NOT reciting "the company line".
Boris13c wrote:I guess I'm not seeing the Alonso hit the same as some of you
yes, Alonso was running full speed at Flacco, but in order to hit Flacco the way he did he needed to dive to get low to hit him
in my view, that dive down towards the sliding Flacco was what made it a dirty hit ... if he was running the same speed at Flacco and remained upright his momentum would have carried him past Flacco, not down into him
once a QB starts to slide feet first, he is down at that point ... so it is up to defenders to know that and to not dive down at them
I think the hit could have been avoided ... I think the forearm to the head that dislodged Flacco's helmet could have been avoided ... the fact Alonso was not suspended has more to do with the NFL front office not having a uniform policy on punishments than anything else ... in a league where a player with a uniform wearing violation can be fined more than a player cheap-shotting someone, the priorities all seem to be off and the stated "concern for player safety" nothing more than mealy mouthed bullshit
The thing is, the dive started BEFORE Flacco sat down. And the wording of the rule even alludes to that. If the QB sits without giving the defender enough time to back off, then the defender can't be penalized for that. That was clearly the case here and the fact that the NFL didn't suspend him strongly suggests that the NFL office agrees with me on this one.
A defender has to commit to going for the tackle at some point. Your analysis ignores that there's no certainty that Flacco was going to give himself up. He just did so too late.
my analysis was the defender should have been attacking Flacco as if he was going to remain upright ... hit him in the chest with your shoulder to make a hard clean tackle ... then if he slides and you go over him, no biggie because he's down without a need for a tackle
in your scenario Alonso was already diving to tackle Flacco, which means hitting him low at the knees if Flacco had remained upright ... and isn't there yet another protect-the-QB rule that makes that illegal? or is that just when a QB is in the pocket?
I bolded where I believe your analysis fails, because Flacco could've done any number of things. Plant and change direction right or left with or without a spin move. Lower his shoulder and deliver a blow or do a stiff arm. Stutter step or slow down to change speeds. Even though some of these things are unlikely, a defender has to be prepared for ANYTHING. So to say he should expect Flacco to do X and therefore do Y is a recipe for him to enhance the opportunity for failure. And even if he is successful, he becomes predictable and can be taken advantage of later.
Mikefive's theory: The only time you KNOW that a sports team player, coach or management member is being 100% honest is when they're NOT reciting "the company line".
Boris13c wrote:I guess I'm not seeing the Alonso hit the same as some of you
yes, Alonso was running full speed at Flacco, but in order to hit Flacco the way he did he needed to dive to get low to hit him
in my view, that dive down towards the sliding Flacco was what made it a dirty hit ... if he was running the same speed at Flacco and remained upright his momentum would have carried him past Flacco, not down into him
once a QB starts to slide feet first, he is down at that point ... so it is up to defenders to know that and to not dive down at them
I think the hit could have been avoided ... I think the forearm to the head that dislodged Flacco's helmet could have been avoided ... the fact Alonso was not suspended has more to do with the NFL front office not having a uniform policy on punishments than anything else ... in a league where a player with a uniform wearing violation can be fined more than a player cheap-shotting someone, the priorities all seem to be off and the stated "concern for player safety" nothing more than mealy mouthed bullshit
The thing is, the dive started BEFORE Flacco sat down. And the wording of the rule even alludes to that. If the QB sits without giving the defender enough time to back off, then the defender can't be penalized for that. That was clearly the case here and the fact that the NFL didn't suspend him strongly suggests that the NFL office agrees with me on this one.
A defender has to commit to going for the tackle at some point. Your analysis ignores that there's no certainty that Flacco was going to give himself up. He just did so too late.
my analysis was the defender should have been attacking Flacco as if he was going to remain upright ... hit him in the chest with your shoulder to make a hard clean tackle ... then if he slides and you go over him, no biggie because he's down without a need for a tackle
in your scenario Alonso was already diving to tackle Flacco, which means hitting him low at the knees if Flacco had remained upright ... and isn't there yet another protect-the-QB rule that makes that illegal? or is that just when a QB is in the pocket?
I bolded where I believe your analysis fails, because Flacco could've done any number of things. Plant and change direction right or left with or without a spin move. Lower his shoulder and deliver a blow or do a stiff arm. Stutter step or slow down to change speeds. Even though some of these things are unlikely, a defender has to be prepared for ANYTHING. So to say he should expect Flacco to do X and therefore do Y is a recipe for him to enhance the opportunity for failure. And even if he is successful, he becomes predictable and can be taken advantage of later.
it's almost like we're speaking 2 different languages
let me try again
a defender pursuing a runner with the purpose of tackling him should be focused on the center mass of his intended target ... and if you focus on the center mass, you will be prepared to drill the guy in the center of his mass as you close in on him
the only thing we agree on is that a defender should be prepared for anything ... which is why focusing on the center mass of the runner is a critical element of proper tackling
I wasn't saying a defender is supposed to be predicting what a runner is going to do ... I wasn't saying a defender is supposed to be able to stop on a dime or change immediate momentum or direction
I don't know how I can make this any more clear so will simply leave it as is
"Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things." George Carlin
Boris13c wrote:I guess I'm not seeing the Alonso hit the same as some of you
yes, Alonso was running full speed at Flacco, but in order to hit Flacco the way he did he needed to dive to get low to hit him
in my view, that dive down towards the sliding Flacco was what made it a dirty hit ... if he was running the same speed at Flacco and remained upright his momentum would have carried him past Flacco, not down into him
once a QB starts to slide feet first, he is down at that point ... so it is up to defenders to know that and to not dive down at them
I think the hit could have been avoided ... I think the forearm to the head that dislodged Flacco's helmet could have been avoided ... the fact Alonso was not suspended has more to do with the NFL front office not having a uniform policy on punishments than anything else ... in a league where a player with a uniform wearing violation can be fined more than a player cheap-shotting someone, the priorities all seem to be off and the stated "concern for player safety" nothing more than mealy mouthed bullshit
The thing is, the dive started BEFORE Flacco sat down. And the wording of the rule even alludes to that. If the QB sits without giving the defender enough time to back off, then the defender can't be penalized for that. That was clearly the case here and the fact that the NFL didn't suspend him strongly suggests that the NFL office agrees with me on this one.
A defender has to commit to going for the tackle at some point. Your analysis ignores that there's no certainty that Flacco was going to give himself up. He just did so too late.
my analysis was the defender should have been attacking Flacco as if he was going to remain upright ... hit him in the chest with your shoulder to make a hard clean tackle ... then if he slides and you go over him, no biggie because he's down without a need for a tackle
in your scenario Alonso was already diving to tackle Flacco, which means hitting him low at the knees if Flacco had remained upright ... and isn't there yet another protect-the-QB rule that makes that illegal? or is that just when a QB is in the pocket?
I bolded where I believe your analysis fails, because Flacco could've done any number of things. Plant and change direction right or left with or without a spin move. Lower his shoulder and deliver a blow or do a stiff arm. Stutter step or slow down to change speeds. Even though some of these things are unlikely, a defender has to be prepared for ANYTHING. So to say he should expect Flacco to do X and therefore do Y is a recipe for him to enhance the opportunity for failure. And even if he is successful, he becomes predictable and can be taken advantage of later.
it's almost like we're speaking 2 different languages
let me try again
a defender pursuing a runner with the purpose of tackling him should be focused on the center mass of his intended target ... and if you focus on the center mass, you will be prepared to drill the guy in the center of his mass as you close in on him
the only thing we agree on is that a defender should be prepared for anything ... which is why focusing on the center mass of the runner is a critical element of proper tackling
I wasn't saying a defender is supposed to be predicting what a runner is going to do ... I wasn't saying a defender is supposed to be able to stop on a dime or change immediate momentum or direction
I don't know how I can make this any more clear so will simply leave it as is
The chest is not the center of mass. The waist is. And that's pretty much exactly the height of Alonso's hit.
Game. Set. Match.
Mikefive's theory: The only time you KNOW that a sports team player, coach or management member is being 100% honest is when they're NOT reciting "the company line".
Boris13c wrote:I guess I'm not seeing the Alonso hit the same as some of you
yes, Alonso was running full speed at Flacco, but in order to hit Flacco the way he did he needed to dive to get low to hit him
in my view, that dive down towards the sliding Flacco was what made it a dirty hit ... if he was running the same speed at Flacco and remained upright his momentum would have carried him past Flacco, not down into him
once a QB starts to slide feet first, he is down at that point ... so it is up to defenders to know that and to not dive down at them
I think the hit could have been avoided ... I think the forearm to the head that dislodged Flacco's helmet could have been avoided ... the fact Alonso was not suspended has more to do with the NFL front office not having a uniform policy on punishments than anything else ... in a league where a player with a uniform wearing violation can be fined more than a player cheap-shotting someone, the priorities all seem to be off and the stated "concern for player safety" nothing more than mealy mouthed bullshit
The thing is, the dive started BEFORE Flacco sat down. And the wording of the rule even alludes to that. If the QB sits without giving the defender enough time to back off, then the defender can't be penalized for that. That was clearly the case here and the fact that the NFL didn't suspend him strongly suggests that the NFL office agrees with me on this one.
A defender has to commit to going for the tackle at some point. Your analysis ignores that there's no certainty that Flacco was going to give himself up. He just did so too late.
my analysis was the defender should have been attacking Flacco as if he was going to remain upright ... hit him in the chest with your shoulder to make a hard clean tackle ... then if he slides and you go over him, no biggie because he's down without a need for a tackle
in your scenario Alonso was already diving to tackle Flacco, which means hitting him low at the knees if Flacco had remained upright ... and isn't there yet another protect-the-QB rule that makes that illegal? or is that just when a QB is in the pocket?
I bolded where I believe your analysis fails, because Flacco could've done any number of things. Plant and change direction right or left with or without a spin move. Lower his shoulder and deliver a blow or do a stiff arm. Stutter step or slow down to change speeds. Even though some of these things are unlikely, a defender has to be prepared for ANYTHING. So to say he should expect Flacco to do X and therefore do Y is a recipe for him to enhance the opportunity for failure. And even if he is successful, he becomes predictable and can be taken advantage of later.
it's almost like we're speaking 2 different languages
let me try again
a defender pursuing a runner with the purpose of tackling him should be focused on the center mass of his intended target ... and if you focus on the center mass, you will be prepared to drill the guy in the center of his mass as you close in on him
the only thing we agree on is that a defender should be prepared for anything ... which is why focusing on the center mass of the runner is a critical element of proper tackling
I wasn't saying a defender is supposed to be predicting what a runner is going to do ... I wasn't saying a defender is supposed to be able to stop on a dime or change immediate momentum or direction
I don't know how I can make this any more clear so will simply leave it as is
The chest is not the center of mass. The waist is.
fine
I should have said upper torso ... not chest, not waist, upper torso
Mikefive wrote:And that's pretty much exactly the height of Alonso's hit.
???
if you think Alonso hit Flacco at waist level, then you also think Flacco has legs about a foot long
"Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things." George Carlin
I think we need Adi to get the tape and do a freeze frame. In any case, we've made our points. Time to move on.
Cheers Boris!
Mikefive's theory: The only time you KNOW that a sports team player, coach or management member is being 100% honest is when they're NOT reciting "the company line".
