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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 9:34 pm 
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This play needs it's own discussion thread.

Here's how it played out from my TV view.

Looked like Cunningham got a TD when they ran the play as he seemed to have the ball in his hand and he hit the pylon. I didn't notice where his feet were. Didn't see where they spotted the ball, although clearly it was short. None of the replays I saw before the challenge showed the ball loose. Thus, and correct me if I'm wrong here, but unless the coaching staff can see other angle replays immediately after the play, I don't see any reason to criticize them. Cunningham said he thought it was a TD, thus unaware that the ball was out, so loose ball wasn't communicated to the coaches by him. They simply didn't have the information.

Then they showed the first replay set. Those didn't clearly show the ball coming loose, although they did show his foot dragging over the out of bounds line before the ball hit the pylon. I assessed at this point that the ball should be spotted about a half a yard away.

After commercial, they showed a down the line replay angle which indeed showed the ball coming loose from the hand before hitting the pylon. However, it was difficult to tell exactly when the ball left the hand and the shot didn't show the foot hitting the out of bounds line. Thus, there was no way to tell if the ball was out first or the toe touched the line first. Thus, the ruling should've been inconclusive on whether a fumble occurred or not. Thus, it should revert to as called which was foot out of bounds, no fumble.

Here's a highlight show replay, which was compressed from the game telecast, but it shows the 3 replay views which I believe upholds my assessment.

That was my assessment. In all the media discussion I've heard, I hear some people saying the foot didn't go out of bounds and the ball definitely left Cunningham's hand. But I positively saw the foot drag over the white line. What am I missing????

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 11:38 pm 
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The refs got this one way wrong, but not for the reason everyone is saying.

If a player's foot (or hand or knee or whatever) is touching out of bounds, and they touch the loose ball, the ball is ruled dead out of bounds.

Now the ruling happened because it appeared Cunningham lost control of the ball before his foot touched out, so he was "mid fumble" as the ball touched the pylon and it was a touchback. The problem is that even though he doesn't have control of the ball, he is still CLEARLY, CONCLUSIVELY, INARGUABLY TOUCHING THE BALL BEFORE IT HITS THE PYLON.

Therefore dead ball at the half yard line. Period.

The refs fucked that one up big time.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 12:23 am 
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Good shout KOP!

Quote:
2017 NFL RULEBOOK

SECTION 21 - OUT OF BOUNDS, INBOUNDS, AND INBOUNDS SPOT

ARTICLE 3. BALL OUT OF BOUNDS

Item 2: Loose Ball. A loose ball is out of bounds when it touches a boundary line or anything that is on or outside such line, including a player, an official, or a pylon.

ARTICLE 4. OUT-OF-BOUNDS SPOT

Item 1. Loose Ball. If a Loose Ball touches anything on or outside a boundary line, the Out-of-Bounds Spot is the forward point of the ball when the ball crosses the sideline.

There's nothing to say the player in question cannot be the one who fumbled. This should be raised with the various media outlets to see if they'll press the NFL on the issue. It would be fascinating to hear the NFL's response!

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 4:28 am 
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KOP_Snake wrote:
The refs got this one way wrong, but not for the reason everyone is saying.

If a player's foot (or hand or knee or whatever) is touching out of bounds, and they touch the loose ball, the ball is ruled dead out of bounds.

Now the ruling happened because it appeared Cunningham lost control of the ball before his foot touched out, so he was "mid fumble" as the ball touched the pylon and it was a touchback. The problem is that even though he doesn't have control of the ball, he is still CLEARLY, CONCLUSIVELY, INARGUABLY TOUCHING THE BALL BEFORE IT HITS THE PYLON.

Therefore dead ball at the half yard line. Period.

The refs fucked that one up big time.


it sure look so but the one cam shows the ball is free in air and next time he touch it is after the ball hit the pylon.
right now at this moment knee out of bounds is just a maybe.
https://imgur.com/83oKxEm


still Miller TD Riveron should be fired immediately.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 5:09 am 
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KOP_Snake wrote:
The refs got this one way wrong, but not for the reason everyone is saying.

If a player's foot (or hand or knee or whatever) is touching out of bounds, and they touch the loose ball, the ball is ruled dead out of bounds.

Now the ruling happened because it appeared Cunningham lost control of the ball before his foot touched out, so he was "mid fumble" as the ball touched the pylon and it was a touchback. The problem is that even though he doesn't have control of the ball, he is still CLEARLY, CONCLUSIVELY, INARGUABLY TOUCHING THE BALL BEFORE IT HITS THE PYLON.

Therefore dead ball at the half yard line. Period.

The refs fucked that one up big time.


No, he is not clearly, conclusively, inarguably touching the ball before it hits the pylon.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 8:27 am 
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The pic at the link below shows he does not have control of ball prior to it hitting the pylon.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/football/bears/


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 8:39 am 
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Otis Day wrote:
The pic at the link below shows he does not have control of ball prior to it hitting the pylon.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/football/bears/


Yes, but I have to agree with Adi. It looks like his right knee is down out of bounds, and his right hand is still on the football. I have been saying all along that the refs made the right call with the touchback, but this picture shows that it SHOULD have been deadball at the 1/2 yard line. Whatever the correct call. SOMEONE on Fox's coaching staff should have said, 'don't challenge this, it could be a touchback.' Take the ball on the 1 yard line, with 1st down and goal to go. Just shitty coaching, and shitting decision making.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 9:20 am 
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yes, the rule about maintaining control of the ball has been enforced in a couple of earlier games this season ... most notable one cost the Jets a win ... so while I understand why runners do the whole extend the ball thing, if they don't have the hand strength to maintain control then it can hurt more than it helps

I also think the refs blew it because it appeared to me Cunningham's foot dragged out of bounds prior to him reaching to the pylon ... play should have been dead and ball down at that point, which was the original and correct call ... but on replay, they specifically said the runner was not out of bounds, leading to the loss of control of the ball at the pylon being Goon Bay's ball at the 20

that said, the ruling that went against the Bears is not really the issue here

the issue is why in the world would this play be worthy of a replay challenge? second quarter of the game, and you get a 1st and goal at the 2 yard line ... what you should do is accept that and move on ... but to Fox it is something you're going to challenge? really? this to me shows a clear lack of understanding about what the replay system is there for ... and this idiot challenge trumps any stupid one Lovie tried and failed on

the kicker here is the replay resulted in the Bears turning the ball over to Goon Bay instead of having a 1st and goal at the 2, but Fox winning the challenge ... which makes the whole thing so Bearsy - stupid and incomprehensible

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 9:25 am 
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I believe the challenge was aboot ball placement, and with a ball placement challenge the officials can use their best judgment to spot the ball. Using their best judgment, they did make the correct call.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 10:04 am 
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Adipost wrote:
I believe the challenge was aboot ball placement, and with a ball placement challenge the officials can use their best judgment to spot the ball. Using their best judgment, they did make the correct call.



the original call was correct, so Fox should have lost the challenge and it should have been Bears ball at around the 2 yard line

but on review, they got the call wrong IMO ... which comically resulted in Fox winning the challenge and the Bears turning over the ball

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