11.19.2017 // Loss - Bears 24, Lions 27

[G08]

27-13 Lions. Embarassment continues! Listening to Loggains in pressers, you want him to succeed, watching game day plays, you want to kill him!

Seriously. His pressers are enjoyable and informative, he comes off as the kind of dude that I really want to pull for, so I do... but then the results happen.

I've liked what he's done previously to this year. He's calling plays that are not his MO. I think Fox is in his ear and has him by the balls. He is so difficult to judge right now it's driving me bonkers. I'll keep giving him a pass until either Fox is gone or he starts to show more of his typical style of play calling. This staff obviously had a plan in play since Tru took over.

Elaborate plz

[Funkster]

27-13 Lions. Embarassment continues! Listening to Loggains in pressers, you want him to succeed, watching game day plays, you want to kill him!

Seriously. His pressers are enjoyable and informative, he comes off as the kind of dude that I really want to pull for, so I do... but then the results happen.

I've liked what he's done previously to this year. He's calling plays that are not his MO. I think Fox is in his ear and has him by the balls. He is so difficult to judge right now it's driving me bonkers. I'll keep giving him a pass until either Fox is gone or he starts to show more of his typical style of play calling. This staff obviously had a plan in play since Tru took over.

Elaborate plz

I've been watching a lot of Jake Locker and how Loggains utilized him. He wasn't gun shy with his play calling. He mixed things up 2x2, 3x1, spread and mix in boots and a lot of play action. Locker averaged 28.5 attempts per game in 2012. Then I watch what he did with Hoyer, then Barkley. Basically the same system, personnel groupings and formations wise. Fast forward to Trubisky and Loggains became this conservative heavy set, bunch style of offense. His creativity basically vanished. Fox knew he's in the hot seat, this was labeled a must win win game for Fox. He had no choice but to let Loggains have some freedom. This past game vs. the pukes was basically the first time Loggains was allowed to get his creative juices flowing. Mixing up personal groupings, using Cohen in motion, 2x1 & 3x1 with horizontal and vertical routes, even play action out of the I. That TD (Tru to Bellamy) play Loggains drew was a thing of beauty. He was systematically creating green for these receivers and it showed in Trubisky stat line. If Fox allows Loggains to get Trubisky into a rhythm early and stay creative, Tru can be dangerous (he's pretty damn good when throwing on time) and this offense could take off.

[wab]

Agree with UOK. Just when fans get down on the team, they get things right for a week. Just long enough for them to pull the rug out. This will be one of those games like Carolina...they win decisively even if the score looks close.

Bears 23
Lions 16

[Boris13c]

Philly is going to punt the Bears straight in the sack. It's going to be a beating that will elicit redundant Tribune quotes from George McCaskey who will say, "I spoke with Mom, and she is pretty pissed off."

The Iggles are going to bury the Bears 6-feet under. It will be ugly on a 2014 Patriots/Green Bay level.

come on fuckers ... can we deal with 1 disaster at a time please?

[Boris13c]

27-13 Lions. Embarassment continues! Listening to Loggains in pressers, you want him to succeed, watching game day plays, you want to kill him!

Seriously. His pressers are enjoyable and informative, he comes off as the kind of dude that I really want to pull for, so I do... but then the results happen.

I've liked what he's done previously to this year. He's calling plays that are not his MO. I think Fox is in his ear and has him by the balls. He is so difficult to judge right now it's driving me bonkers. I'll keep giving him a pass until either Fox is gone or he starts to show more of his typical style of play calling. This staff obviously had a plan in play since Tru took over.

Elaborate plz

at this point I don't care how nice Loggains sounds or what a good guy he appears to be

what I see is his offense regularly running into the teeth of 9 (or more) man defensive fronts and then passing only in predictable passing situations (also helping the defense)

if it takes him being an asshole to make the offensive scheme better and up to NFL speed, then please, be an asshole

right now he is simply broadcasting to the defense what the Bears are up to and providing no alternative for the players on the field

[Richie]

I think the level of pessimism with the final score predictions is a bit over the top. In the NFL, you're never quite as bad (or as good) as you think you are. This is still the only team that gave New Orleans a run, and dominated Carolina the week prior.

I also have very little respect for Detroit. They've been pretty sub-par to average since September.

It's kind of like how I said in last week's thread, that GB would bounce back... because that's what NFL teams tend to do when you stick a fork in them. I think the Bears pull off something similar this week, and Sunday was the second time when we were without Trevathan... and proceeded to get run all over on by two different scrub/3rd string RB's.

If we get Trevathan and Long back... I just still think this is a game we pointlessly follow through on. But no one will really give a damn, and I'll just roll my eyes and laugh.

[Rusty Trombagent]

I think the level of pessimism with the final score predictions is a bit over the top. In the NFL, you're never quite as bad (or as good) as you think you are. This is still the only team that gave New Orleans a run, and dominated Carolina the week prior.

I do think that if Danny Trevathan was healthy, we probably win that game.

[Boris13c]

If we get Trevathan and Long back...

if ifs and buts were candy and nuts we'd all have a Merry Christmas

[Bears Whiskey Nut]

I think the level of pessimism with the final score predictions is a bit over the top. In the NFL, you're never quite as bad (or as good) as you think you are. This is still the only team that gave New Orleans a run, and dominated Carolina the week prior.

I do think that if Danny Trevathan was healthy, we probably win that game.

He is literally the backbone of the defense. When he is in the game, playing well, making the right adjustments, the defense is amazing. When he is out. It just about falls apart.

[Rusty Trombagent]

I think the level of pessimism with the final score predictions is a bit over the top. In the NFL, you're never quite as bad (or as good) as you think you are. This is still the only team that gave New Orleans a run, and dominated Carolina the week prior.

I do think that if Danny Trevathan was healthy, we probably win that game.

He is literally the backbone of the defense. When he is in the game, playing well, making the right adjustments, the defense is amazing. When he is out. It just about falls apart.

i dont think this is an exaggeration at all. last season i found myself at times wondering if he was worth what we were paying him, but man this season it's so obvious it's painful.

[Wounded Bear]

I'll be brief this week:

Bears - 10
Lions - 44

[46Blitz]

Bears 27
Lions 24

To be honest, since we are out of the picture for any division title or playoff spot... I wouldnt mind loosing every game provided it shows something of a glimpse of the future (the positive type). If we see steady improvement with Trubisky and some of the other young guys a better draft pick will be acceptable. I do t want to see a total collapse, but if we get edged out each game slightly oh well... heck, almost every loss so far was like that so whatever.

In this game, I feel it could be a nice little bounce back game. Detroit is the better team, but hey...

[docc]

I'll also be in briefs..
.. as it's an early game way out here near Mexico..

Think of that on chat..

[Ormazd]

I'm still pissed off from last week. Don't know if I'll watch or join the chat.

Lions 38
Bears 10

[ramentaschen]

This is going to be the first game I'm not going to watch, I have no confidence in this team right now. The Green Bay game broke my enthusiasm.

I have better things to do this Sunday but will view the lowlights later.


The sooner Pace and company gets rid of Fox and Loggains, the better.

[wab]

I don't have anything better to do, and I'm paying for Sunday Ticket either way. So... blah.

[G08]

I have to watch... but I can tell my heart's not in it so I'm not going to enjoy the game as much as I would have if it actually meant something.

Still... I guess seeing if Mitch improves will be fun. I guess.

[Richie]

I have to watch... but I can tell my heart's not in it so I'm not going to enjoy the game as much as I would have if it actually meant something.

Still... I guess seeing if Mitch improves will be fun. I guess.

Exactly. Just root for the young QB to progress and find ways to win. Much more important than a handful of spots in the draft.

[G08]

I have to watch... but I can tell my heart's not in it so I'm not going to enjoy the game as much as I would have if it actually meant something.

Still... I guess seeing if Mitch improves will be fun. I guess.

Exactly. Just root for the young QB to progress and find ways to win. Much more important than a handful of spots in the draft.

Ehhh I'm on the other side of the fence on the "I'd rather lose meaningless games to improve draft position" conversation.

Look what it cost us to move up one spot this past draft...

[Richie]

If we get Trevathan and Long back...

if ifs and buts were candy and nuts we'd all have a Merry Christmas

No, you're right.

Our defensive captain and best offensive lineman mean nothing to us...

That's sound logic.

[Richie]

I have to watch... but I can tell my heart's not in it so I'm not going to enjoy the game as much as I would have if it actually meant something.

Still... I guess seeing if Mitch improves will be fun. I guess.

Exactly. Just root for the young QB to progress and find ways to win. Much more important than a handful of spots in the draft.

Ehhh I'm on the other side of the fence on the "I'd rather lose meaningless games to improve draft position" conversation.

Look what it cost us to move up one spot this past draft...

Drafting well > Draft positioning... by a mile and a half. Especially when you already are locked in with a young QB which you're committed to. Outside of that, it's really just about your staff/GM doing their job well. That's why KC, Pittsburgh, NE... etc... Stay competitive and keep reloading. While the Cleveland Browns, Oakland Raiders for 14 years, Miami Dolphins and Tampa Bay stay perpetually irrelevant.

Never really cared much about losing my mind over draft positioning, unless it's a year like last year. Where there is LITERALLY zero to root for, and every young player worth watching was hurt... and we were starting Matt Barkley.

Or... I suppose in a year where you feel there's a "can't miss" Luck or Peyton type of QB who is a #1 overall lock.

IMO, ESPECIALLY with a young team. It's so much more important to see them finding ways to win out there, and improving. Rooting for a young team like this, with a rookie QB and promising young defensive players to tank... it's just such a loser mentality. Leave that to the Cleveland's of the world. This team taking on good form the rest of the year is very important.

[G08]

Of course drafting well > draft positioning

However

Draft positioning gives you a better chance at drafting well



It's completely illogical to want to draft at a lower slot because you literally have less talent available on the board. Or, if you do prefer pick 10 over pick 4, trade down to pick 10 and acquire more draft capital.

Hell, a meaningless win might have been the difference between Amari Cooper/Leonard Williams and Kevin White. Wouldn't you much rather have one of the Cooper/Williams options? I sure as hell would.


At the end of the day, the whole argument boils down to this for me: does it cost you draft currency to move up in the draft? Yes it does. Does beating a shitty 49ers team with Matt Barkley at QB do anything for this franchise? No it doesn't.

[o-pus #40 in B major]

Well.

This young offense has to learn how to win. It doesn't look like they quite have that figured out and nobody's getting any younger. With that in mind, I think even a meaningless win beats the piss out of a loss.

So I'll take a few more wins in 2017 - followed by even more wins in 2018 - and so on...hopefully

..until we consistently pick in the bottom 6 or 8 of the draft

[RING4CHI]

Lions: It doesn't matter
Bears: Not enough

[PapaDongo]

If Fox cucks Tru and makes him take sacks and only let's him audible run right or left this is going to be a mf blowout. If Tru gets to rollout and sling the rock like he does best then this could be a legit shootout. No Ziggy Ansah so Tru definitely has a good opportunity to have a feel day on this Lions D.

[RING4CHI]

Hell, a meaningless win might have been the difference between Amari Cooper/Leonard Williams and Kevin White. Wouldn't you much rather have one of the Cooper/Williams options? I sure as hell would.

Vic Beasley went one pick after the Bears took Kevin White.

[Mikefive]

I really see both sides of these debates. I have recently been on the side of don't play to lose, but play players who can't win in order to enhance draft position. At the same time, when you're playing a rookie QB, losses hurt the psyche and can devastate the confidence of a young leader. So now that Biscuit is playing, you have to play to win. That's how I see it. In G08's argument, it ended with... does beating the 49ers with Barkley at QB help? He's right. It really doesn't. And that's part of why I argued to keep playing Glennon or go to Sanchez weeks ago. But when you're playing your franchise's future at QB, that's an entirely different matter. Of course, I focus heavily on the QB position as it's the most important position in all team sports.

Regarding the draft position versus draft smarter argument is also a debate where both sides make good points. We had a guy (hat's off to chewy) in our old forum who did an involved study over a decade or more of draft picks. The bottom line in R1 is that those players become quality starters-the expectation for a R1 pick--about half the time. That also means that about half the time, those players don't meet expectations. The odds are better in the top 10, but not much better. This gives a lot of credence to the pick smarter argument, which can't be denied. Arguments like the Beasley one pick after White or Cleveland are idiots because they passed on Wentz points made above are brought up to make a lot of teams look foolish every year. And yet, there's no denying that even the most shrewd GM picking 15th had no shot to get Wentz. So both sides have a point.

In the end, with a roughly 50% R1 success rate, a successful GM needs to hit on those 1st rounders way better than that, no matter where they're picking. The tough part is that your GM is who your GM is. To say "Cleveland needs to win and their GM needs to just pick smarter" is easy to say. And there's no denying that picking higher gives more choices to pick from, which undeniably creates more opportunity for better picks. Losing games to get higher picks is something teams have control over. Who their GM is isn't something teams do or should change willy nilly. So there's a lot less control there.

It's certainly an interesting and thoughtful debate.

[Funkster]

Meh, I can't believe we're talking draft already.

[RING4CHI]

Meh, I can't believe we're talking draft already.

I was thinking ahead to the 2018 draft in 2016.

[staleystarch]

After the game coach Fox will say in answer to the question as to why the offense fielded a quarterback for only 3 snaps, “we saw early that the Lions were sending an extra rusher, so they were taking away the passing game”. Jordan Howard gets 40 rushes into an 11 man wall for 40 yards.