wab wrote:I'm slowly climbing onto the Jarvis Landry wagon. Landry, Meredith, Wright/Rookie, White, Gentry isn't a bad group of guys.
It's a bit small isn't it? The only players over 6" are Meredith, White and Gentry.
I'm not sure what your point is.
Landry is 5'11
Meredith is 6'3
Wright/rookie is 5'10/?
White is 6'3
Gentry is 6'2
and wab never mentioned the imposing MeKale McKay who is 6'5
So only 1+? out of 4+? is under 6 foot.
Lots of people suspect that the C***** era is over. Last year in KC the target-weighted height of WRs was 5'10.5
It’s a different offense guys. The WCO trends towards smaller/quicker guys that can get separation. It’s not the Brandon Marshall/Alshon Jeffery back to the end zone jump ball stuff.
wab wrote:I'm slowly climbing onto the Jarvis Landry wagon. Landry, Meredith, Wright/Rookie, White, Gentry isn't a bad group of guys.
It's a bit small isn't it? The only players over 6" are Meredith, White and Gentry.
I'm not sure what your point is.
Landry is 5'11
Meredith is 6'3
Wright/rookie is 5'10/?
White is 6'3
Gentry is 6'2
and wab never mentioned the imposing MeKale McKay who is 6'5
So only 1+? out of 4+? is under 6 foot.
Lots of people suspect that the C***** era is over. Last year in KC the target-weighted height of WRs was 5'10.5
C***** era? You've lost me there!
Just that out of that group the only guy with size that you can reasonably hope to rely on is Meredith and he's coming off a major injury. White and Gentry haven't proven anything so we're left with 5'11" Landry and 5'10" Wright.
Plus Landry and Wright played around 45% of their snaps in the slot and Meredith in 2016 35%. I just think it's a risk to have three similarish players as the best/most consistent receivers on the roster.
I didn't know that about KC though!
"I wouldn't take him for a conditional 7th. His next contract will pay him more than he could possibly contribute.".
NFL Update
NFL Update
@MySportsUpdate
Early indication is the two teams who will pursue Jarvis Landry most: #Bears and #Ravens. Again, still early as teams are sorting out their offseason plans.
4:30 PM · Feb 9, 2018
wab wrote:It’s a different offense guys. The WCO trends towards smaller/quicker guys that can get separation. It’s not the Brandon Marshall/Alshon Jeffery back to the end zone jump ball stuff.
All the more reason to try and get Austin if LA cuts him.
And as it turns out … After playing on around just 53 percent of offensive snaps in his first eight games of the 2017 season, Wilson used on 91.3 percent of the offense’s plays during Nagy’s play-calling debut. And that started a four-week run in which Wilson played on at least 86 percent of the Chiefs’ plays.
I think Albert Wilson might be our move, ahead of Jarvis Landry.
G08 wrote:wab and I have been pimpin' this kid's name:
And as it turns out … After playing on around just 53 percent of offensive snaps in his first eight games of the 2017 season, Wilson used on 91.3 percent of the offense’s plays during Nagy’s play-calling debut. And that started a four-week run in which Wilson played on at least 86 percent of the Chiefs’ plays.
I think Albert Wilson might be our move, ahead of Jarvis Landry.
I’d sign Landry because he’s a unique talent. Aside from him, I’d rather keep Meredith in the slot.
G08 wrote:wab and I have been pimpin' this kid's name:
And as it turns out … After playing on around just 53 percent of offensive snaps in his first eight games of the 2017 season, Wilson used on 91.3 percent of the offense’s plays during Nagy’s play-calling debut. And that started a four-week run in which Wilson played on at least 86 percent of the Chiefs’ plays.
I think Albert Wilson might be our move, ahead of Jarvis Landry.
Out of curiosity I looked... before the Jets game when Nagy took over:
11 games, 20 rec, 257 yards (could be a bit off, I did real quick addition in my head while distracted)
After:
5 games, 22 rec, 333 yards (he did have 10 catches in the Pat Mahomes game.)
RustyTrubisky wrote:ehhhh, i think WAB hit the nail on the head: With Cohen, he's redundant, and Cohen is a much more compete player. i think Cohen's even a more natural catcher than Austin.
I love Cohen, but are we going to line him up on the outside 85% of our offensive snaps? I mean we literally will be converting him into a WR and I don't think that's what we are looking to do. I see him used more as a Darren Sproles type.
At the end of the day, I don't care how it happens, but we need some juice on this offense. I'd be all over Landry if he wasn't a headcase. Austin is a classic buy low player who, I believe, could explode in this offense. I'd have to think guys like Nagy and Helfrich can figure out a way to use him... dude fell way out of favor in LA (had something like 22 targets in the passing game while the Albert Wilsons of the world had 62 in KC).
That's exactly it. We can make him a legit second WR, stretch the defense and open up the vertical passing game big time.
Then for the people who think that Cohen can put up huge yards in the running game, be a WR and then also return kicks, how much do you think a guy who is 5'6" and 180 or so can take in the NFL? Share the load with Austin.
Austin can be had and probably at a rate that easily fits into the cap while still being able to add players and retain our own. He's at $15M or so now. He'll get a fraction of that in free agency.
I'm too lazy to pool a bunch of quotes together. But I'm jumping on the same bandwagon of comments largely started with wab and added to by others...
I'm fine with Cohen playing mostly WR. We do need juice with this offense and Cohen can provide some of that. Keep in mind that Cohen in the backfield is nice but has limitations and handing off to a 180# guy is going to wear him and break him down the more he's used that way. Further, you really don't want to substitute him for Jordan Howard as it makes us easier to defend. Cohen can and should be moved all over the place as he's a very good football player. Attacking, spread concepts should find ways to use his skills.
Lining him up in the backfield makes more sense than at WR tough, as the patriots do with Lewis and White, it creates matchup problems once the RB goes into a pattern.
Adipost wrote:NFL Update
NFL Update
@MySportsUpdate
Early indication is the two teams who will pursue Jarvis Landry most: #Bears and #Ravens. Again, still early as teams are sorting out their offseason plans.
4:30 PM · Feb 9, 2018
I don't want him on this team if he wants to be paid like a top 5-8 WR.
5th in the league in RZ target % (32.4%) and 1st in the league in RZ receptions (18). He's an unconventional receiver but there may be an argument for him getting paid.
"I wouldn't take him for a conditional 7th. His next contract will pay him more than he could possibly contribute.".
RustyTrubisky wrote:ehhhh, i think WAB hit the nail on the head: With Cohen, he's redundant, and Cohen is a much more compete player. i think Cohen's even a more natural catcher than Austin.
I love Cohen, but are we going to line him up on the outside 85% of our offensive snaps? I mean we literally will be converting him into a WR and I don't think that's what we are looking to do. I see him used more as a Darren Sproles type.
At the end of the day, I don't care how it happens, but we need some juice on this offense. I'd be all over Landry if he wasn't a headcase. Austin is a classic buy low player who, I believe, could explode in this offense. I'd have to think guys like Nagy and Helfrich can figure out a way to use him... dude fell way out of favor in LA (had something like 22 targets in the passing game while the Albert Wilsons of the world had 62 in KC).
That's exactly it. We can make him a legit second WR, stretch the defense and open up the vertical passing game big time.
Then for the people who think that Cohen can put up huge yards in the running game, be a WR and then also return kicks, how much do you think a guy who is 5'6" and 180 or so can take in the NFL? Share the load with Austin.
Austin can be had and probably at a rate that easily fits into the cap while still being able to add players and retain our own. He's at $15M or so now. He'll get a fraction of that in free agency.
I'm too lazy to pool a bunch of quotes together. But I'm jumping on the same bandwagon of comments largely started with wab and added to by others...
I'm fine with Cohen playing mostly WR. We do need juice with this offense and Cohen can provide some of that. Keep in mind that Cohen in the backfield is nice but has limitations and handing off to a 180# guy is going to wear him and break him down the more he's used that way. Further, you really don't want to substitute him for Jordan Howard as it makes us easier to defend. Cohen can and should be moved all over the place as he's a very good football player. Attacking, spread concepts should find ways to use his skills.
Lining him up in the backfield makes more sense than at WR tough, as the patriots do with Lewis and White, it creates matchup problems once the RB goes into a pattern.
Point taken. But the question is... How often do you do that? And do you line him up in the backfield with or without Howard? I never said we should never put him behind the QB, just that we shouldn't do it most of the time and at the expense of having Howard be back there.
Another thing about what you're saying... If he lines up in the backfield and goes out in pass patterns most of the time, DCs will catch onto that and adjust their coverage with a DB who isn't so overmatched.
I bet if we had a longer discussion about this, our opinions really aren't very different.
Mikefive's theory: The only time you KNOW that a sports team player, coach or management member is being 100% honest is when they're NOT reciting "the company line".
I don't want him on this team if he wants to be paid like a top 5-8 WR.
5th in the league in RZ target % (32.4%) and 1st in the league in RZ receptions (18). He's an unconventional receiver but there may be an argument for him getting paid.
Targets don't mean much to me when you're running an average of 3.5 yards downfield and catching the ball, man. Look at his career YPC: 10.1
Top NFL WRs career avg:
A.Brown - 13.5
OBJ - 14.1
Hopkins - 14.2
Jones - 15.5
Fitzgerald - 12.6 (13.4 through the age of 30)
D.Thomas - 13.8
Green - 14.8
Bryant 14.0
Hard pass on Landry unless it's a team-friendly deal.
Before we look at this year’s free agent class, a word on Cameron Meredith, who said this on locker cleanout day Jan. 1: “Training camp for sure I’ll be back. Right now it’s staying on pace so that I can do that. Yes, full recovery.”
I don't want him on this team if he wants to be paid like a top 5-8 WR.
5th in the league in RZ target % (32.4%) and 1st in the league in RZ receptions (18). He's an unconventional receiver but there may be an argument for him getting paid.
Targets don't mean much to me when you're running an average of 3.5 yards downfield and catching the ball, man. Look at his career YPC: 10.1
Top NFL WRs career avg:
A.Brown - 13.5
OBJ - 14.1
Hopkins - 14.2
Jones - 15.5
Fitzgerald - 12.6 (13.4 through the age of 30)
D.Thomas - 13.8
Green - 14.8
Bryant 14.0
Hard pass on Landry unless it's a team-friendly deal.
Landry had identical numbers to Antonio Brown his first year under Adam Gase. 2017 Miami was an abortion of an offense led by Cutler and that offensive line/running game. Gase couldn’t get the ball out of Cutler’s hands fast enough. Landry was pretty much Miami’s running game.
I don't want him on this team if he wants to be paid like a top 5-8 WR.
5th in the league in RZ target % (32.4%) and 1st in the league in RZ receptions (18). He's an unconventional receiver but there may be an argument for him getting paid.
Targets don't mean much to me when you're running an average of 3.5 yards downfield and catching the ball, man. Look at his career YPC: 10.1
Top NFL WRs career avg:
A.Brown - 13.5
OBJ - 14.1
Hopkins - 14.2
Jones - 15.5
Fitzgerald - 12.6 (13.4 through the age of 30)
D.Thomas - 13.8
Green - 14.8
Bryant 14.0
Hard pass on Landry unless it's a team-friendly deal.
Landry had identical numbers to Antonio Brown his first year under Adam Gase. 2017 Miami was an abortion of an offense led by Cutler and that offensive line/running game. Gase couldn’t get the ball out of Cutler’s hands fast enough.
I don't want him on this team if he wants to be paid like a top 5-8 WR.
5th in the league in RZ target % (32.4%) and 1st in the league in RZ receptions (18). He's an unconventional receiver but there may be an argument for him getting paid.
Targets don't mean much to me when you're running an average of 3.5 yards downfield and catching the ball, man. Look at his career YPC: 10.1
Top NFL WRs career avg:
A.Brown - 13.5
OBJ - 14.1
Hopkins - 14.2
Jones - 15.5
Fitzgerald - 12.6 (13.4 through the age of 30)
D.Thomas - 13.8
Green - 14.8
Bryant 14.0
Hard pass on Landry unless it's a team-friendly deal.
Landry had identical numbers to Antonio Brown his first year under Adam Gase. 2017 Miami was an abortion of an offense led by Cutler and that offensive line/running game. Gase couldn’t get the ball out of Cutler’s hands fast enough.
I mean yeah Adi, Landry had the ball thrown to him 161 times and Belichick is notorious for taking away the opposition's best player. Double the guy that the Dolphins force-feed the ball.
G08 wrote:I mean yeah Adi, Landry had the ball thrown to him 161 times and Belichick is notorious for taking away the opposition's best player. Double the guy that the Dolphins force-feed the ball.
It’s a rebuttal to “the more catches he gets, the worse the team is” argument. You’d think teams wouldn’t be doubling a slot receiver, as it is incredibly dangerous to leave the back end open and outside receivers one on one. Landry actually opens up space for his outside receivers, as crazy and backward as that might sound.
“I usually have an idea what’s going on going into the game,” Gase said. “It’s not breaking news to anybody that I’m pretty sure I know who most teams try to take away on the offense. You just try to make it hard on them and try to keep Jarvis (Landry) doing the things he does well (and at the) same time, don’t make him a sitting duck where he lines up in the same spot play after play after play and everybody knows where he’s at.”
Stats don’t always tell the whole story. The analysts fail to actually watch the film, they just go by raw numbers. It doesn’t take into account many factors. For example, since Landry is doubled a lot, the only way Gase can get him the ball consistently is with quicker passes closer to the line of scrimmage. But since the analysts don’t watch the film, they just make it a knock on Landry and his skill set.
Is there a way to determine on what % of snaps Landry is actually doubled? I can't imagine it's any more than game breakers like Antonio Brown, Julio Jones etc.
Sooooo, I went back and watched a bunch of Sammy Watkins from this past season and I'm sincerely hoping he doesn't get tagged and hits free agency.
I don't care if we have to severely overpay for him, he has insane burst that would be tremendous in this offense.
Can you imagine, in an alternate universe perhaps, where Watkins and White are killing it on the outside and Meredith is destroying the slot?
I think we will have to overpay for his services (think Alshon Jeffery or more) but we really have no other choice. This is what we have to deal with since we let Marshall/Jeffery walk for nothing and Kevin White has been a bust. I think 4 years/$52 million/$28 million guaranteed will get it done. He'll lock down our WR1 and be a perfect hedge to Kevin White, we can draft a WR in round 2 to be our WR2 if/when we let Kevin White walk in 2019. Meredith will be the perfect #3.
If Kevin White stays healthy and has a decent season we could bring him back on a modest deal and let White/Meredith/Rookie battle for spots 2, 3 and 4. It's a win-win in my book.
wab wrote:First - It's weird to see you talking positively about Kevin White.
Second - I don't think there's any way Watkins gets out of LA.
I'm trying to turn over a new leaf regarding Kevin White. I still hate the pick but it doesn't mean I want to see him fail -- nothing would make me happier than him becoming a Pro Bowler in Chicago and serving me a huge plate of crow.
The LA angle... I'm digging around and there's some smoke around Joyner potentially getting tagged. That might be with the idea that Watkins wants to stay in LA and is willing to forgo testing the market. Still, if he's a FA I'd get on the phone immediately. Nobody else in FA moves the needle for us at WR as much as he does.
WR
Sammy Watkins - reasons stated above, true #1 WR that creates competition for WR2-4 among Meredith, White, Rookie
Allen Robinson - another true #1 WR, is his knee healthy? Will JAX tag him?
Albert Wilson - more of a low-end WR2 high-end WR3... familiarity with Nagy's offense, speed, production
Marqise Lee - heavy does of meh. More of a low-end WR2 with some potential upside, hands are questionable
John Brown/Taylor Gabirel/Paul Richardson - speed but each comes with size limitations
OLB
Trent Murphy - experience as a 3-4 OLB and 4-3 DE, had 9.0 sacks in 2016 before getting injured in 2017. Only 27 years old, offers size at OLB and a pass rushing presence at DE in base defenses.
Barkevious Mingo - yes, that Barkevious Mingo. Just turned 27 but I envision him being used how Fangio liked to deploy Leonard Floyd. Drop him in coverage at times, blitz him, spy the QB, etc. He can't simply be a pass rusher on every down, so his presence should allow Floyd to rush more than he has to worry about dropping back in coverage (although he can still do that from time to time).
Jerry Attaochu - probably more of a last option, has been a bust thus far but is still only 25 and has some burst/wiggle to his game. Reminds me of a younger Sam Acho with perhaps a touch more upside.
CB
Kyle Fuller - tag him with the hope that he will sign a longer deal to stay with us for the next 3-5 years.
Trumaine Johnson - solid backup option for us if Fuller doesn't seem interested, may not come very cheap however
Bashaud Breeland - I like him more as a CB2 than a CB1, but he's young (26) and I think Donatell could help him with some of his coverage inconsistencies. Plus the kid likes to stick his nose up in there in run support, which always endears a corner to me
Prince Amukamara - Turns 29 in June so I'd only want him back on a 1-2 year deal for depth purposes.
Gah, free agency is pretty uninspiring. When we are pining for Trent Murphy and two busts at OLB, undersized and inconsistent/injured WR's, and a laundry list of corners that have struggled to live up to lofty expectations...it's a underwhelming time.
