wab wrote:The thing I like the most about Watson is that everyone says he's like a coach on the field. He's like a second offensive coordinator and is a student of the game. The dude knows what everyone is supposed to be doing and where everyone is supposed to be. That helps quell a lot of issues I have with the interceptions, because he knows his offense backwards and forwards.
A lot of his picks came when Williams was out. Cain is talented, but an incredibly undisciplined player. And they don't ask Scott to do much beyond taking the ball on reverses and screens. You see what happens when a QB expects someone to be somewhere and they aren't. See: Hester, Devin.
That's what makes me feel good about him as a prospect. Like you said it's been mentioned that he knows the offense as well, if not better, than some of the coaches. That shows to me that he's an intelligent, dedicated kid. He's got outstanding leadership qualities, which isn't the most important thing in the world necessarily but I think Ryan Pace puts a ton of value in it, and after the whole Jay Cutler "he's not a leader blah blah blah" nonsense, I think it will be over-valued. His arm is solid and he can extend plays / gain positive yards when there is nothing to be had, and I'm of the opinion he's going to measure in at 6'2"+ and 218 lbs.
Get a quality corner in FA, take Watson #3 overall, and then get Budda Baker or any rangy FS in round 2 and you're cooking with gas.
wab wrote:The thing I like the most about Watson is that everyone says he's like a coach on the field. He's like a second offensive coordinator and is a student of the game. The dude knows what everyone is supposed to be doing and where everyone is supposed to be. That helps quell a lot of issues I have with the interceptions, because he knows his offense backwards and forwards.
A lot of his picks came when Williams was out. Cain is talented, but an incredibly undisciplined player. And they don't ask Scott to do much beyond taking the ball on reverses and screens. You see what happens when a QB expects someone to be somewhere and they aren't. See: Hester, Devin.
I really am not high on Watson, if he is selected by the Bears, I really hope his football IQ is as advertised... because I didn't see the accuracy that G08 saw in the NC game, I saw Williams and Leggett bailing him out with amazing catches late. His toughness, leadership and resiliency are definite pluses but I'm scared of pre/post snap recognition as some of his picks look really really bad. But that said, I still would rather have him than Kizer... but I have really hopped on the Mahomes wagon, big time.
wab wrote:The thing I like the most about Watson is that everyone says he's like a coach on the field. He's like a second offensive coordinator and is a student of the game. The dude knows what everyone is supposed to be doing and where everyone is supposed to be. That helps quell a lot of issues I have with the interceptions, because he knows his offense backwards and forwards.
A lot of his picks came when Williams was out. Cain is talented, but an incredibly undisciplined player. And they don't ask Scott to do much beyond taking the ball on reverses and screens. You see what happens when a QB expects someone to be somewhere and they aren't. See: Hester, Devin.
I really am not high on Watson, if he is selected by the Bears, I really hope his football IQ is as advertised... because I didn't see the accuracy that G08 saw in the NC game, I saw Williams and Leggett bailing him out with amazing catches late. His toughness, leadership and resiliency are definite pluses but I'm scared of pre/post snap recognition as some of his picks look really really bad. But that said, I still would rather have him than Kizer... but I have really hopped on the Mahomes wagon, big time.
Alshon Jeffery is longer than Williams and Leggett... he can make those catches look simple while offering Watson even more of a target window on those balls. It's beautiful if we're smart enough to retain Alshon and draft Watson.
Daniel Jeremiah just came out with his top 50 prospect rankings. Check it out.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000775479/article/daniel-jeremiahs-top-50-prospects-for-2017-nfl-draft%3fnetworkId=4595&site=.news&zone=story&zoneUrl=url%253Dstory&zoneKeys=s1%253Dstory&env=&pageKeyValues=prtnr%253Dtop-50-draft-prospects&p.ct=Top+50&p.adsm=false&p.tcm=%2523000&p.bgc1m=%2523EAEAEA&sr=amp
Last edited by Adipost on Tue Jan 17, 2017 1:38 pm, edited 4 times in total.
I think where you will see Watson begin to climb to the top of the draft is at the combine, and specifically in interviews. Teams are going to fall in love with him whereas I don't think Kizer is going to interview well. Even though it really isn't his personality, Kizer can come across as cocky and condescending.
That the coaching staff at ND didn't put a lot of effort into trying to get him to stick around South Bend tells me quite a bit.
The only way you can take a safety in the top 5 is if there is he is absolutely 100% can't miss and is the only piece missing on an already great defense.
I'm already seeing mocks with both Hooker and Adams going in the top 5. No way in hell.
wab wrote:The only way you can take a safety in the top 5 is if there is he is absolutely 100% can't miss and is the only piece missing on an already great defense.
I'm already seeing mocks with both Hooker and Adams going in the top 5. No way in hell.
Malik Hooker - "He has the best ball skills of any safety I've EVER evaluated in college."
I'm intrigued only because Fangio is a mastermind when it comes to coverages... and having someone like Hooker back there could really allow him to be exotic with a lot of his looks.
Sigh... #3 is so fucking high for a God damned safety, though.
G08 wrote:I'm intrigued only because Fangio is a mastermind when it comes to coverages... and having someone like Hooker back there could really allow him to be exotic with a lot of his looks.
Sigh... #3 is so fucking high for a God damned safety, though.
It is, but honestly it's better to take Hooker than reach for a QB IMO. I also have soured a bit on Jonathan Allen - I don't see elite skills from him to make me think he's worth a top 3 pick.
The more I watch on Kizer, the more I feel like he will pretty much repeat Cutler's career: stubborn, big-armed QB coming off a losing college team... has issues with decision making, trusts arm talent a bit too much and holds the ball too long causing him to take sacks because he is lacking the vision to throw a receiver open or misses when a receiver hits a window
I've been a Notre Dame fan since I was 6 years old. And I want absolutely nothing to do with Kizer. I was happy to see him leave South Bend, and I'd be beside myself if I had to continue watching him on Sunday.
wab wrote:The only way you can take a safety in the top 5 is if there is he is absolutely 100% can't miss and is the only piece missing on an already great defense.
I'm already seeing mocks with both Hooker and Adams going in the top 5. No way in hell.
Seeing how two of the top defenses to be seen in the last 5 years is because of the superior safety play of Cam Chancelor and Eric Berry, I don't see how you can say that with a straight face. The Raven defense that basically won the superbowl with a little help from Jamal Lewis, was anchored by Ed Reed. Our own defense with Urlacher as it's face began to crumble when Mike Brown couldn't go.
I know that Safety is isn't a glamorous position by comparison with rush LB'ers and DE's, but they are what allow defenses to play close and take chances. Defences in this era of the NFL, where 3 wide shotgun is a staple alignment instead of something you only see in Buffalo, Houston and on 3rd and long. A true top safety would transform our defense IMO.
I will kill you if you cut me at the knees. You will drink with me when invited and stay til I say so. We only listen to American Music. I make men nervous with just my presence. I expect an apology if you hold. I throw linemen at QB's. Believe the Lore!
wab wrote:The only way you can take a safety in the top 5 is if there is he is absolutely 100% can't miss and is the only piece missing on an already great defense.
I'm already seeing mocks with both Hooker and Adams going in the top 5. No way in hell.
Seeing how two of the top defenses to be seen in the last 5 years is because of the superior safety play of Cam Chancelor and Eric Berry, I don't see how you can say that with a straight face. The Raven defense that basically won the superbowl with a little help from Jamal Lewis, was anchored by Ed Reed. Our own defense with Urlacher as it's face began to crumble when Mike Brown couldn't go.
I know that Safety is isn't a glamorous position by comparison with rush LB'ers and DE's, but they are what allow defenses to play close and take chances. Defences in this era of the NFL, where 3 wide shotgun is a staple alignment instead of something you only see in Buffalo, Houston and on 3rd and long. A true top safety would transform our defense IMO.
Allow me to counter with: "who are the starting safeties for the Falcons and Patriots".
I'll be impressed if you can name all 4 without looking them up.
wab wrote:The only way you can take a safety in the top 5 is if there is he is absolutely 100% can't miss and is the only piece missing on an already great defense.
I'm already seeing mocks with both Hooker and Adams going in the top 5. No way in hell.
Seeing how two of the top defenses to be seen in the last 5 years is because of the superior safety play of Cam Chancelor and Eric Berry, I don't see how you can say that with a straight face. The Raven defense that basically won the superbowl with a little help from Jamal Lewis, was anchored by Ed Reed. Our own defense with Urlacher as it's face began to crumble when Mike Brown couldn't go.
I know that Safety is isn't a glamorous position by comparison with rush LB'ers and DE's, but they are what allow defenses to play close and take chances. Defences in this era of the NFL, where 3 wide shotgun is a staple alignment instead of something you only see in Buffalo, Houston and on 3rd and long. A true top safety would transform our defense IMO.
Allow me to counter with: "who are the starting safeties for the Falcons and Patriots".
I'll be impressed if you can name all 4 without looking them up.
This is kind of a bs question though, just because those players aren't star names doesn't take away the impact they have on the games. Of course everyone will know the name of the starting QB for each team but I wouldn't be shocked if people couldn't name the starting offensive linemen of each team, but without them playing as well as they did, we wouldn't be talking about Ryan or Brady or the importance of a QB. I am pretty sure most of us could name the starting QB for each team in the NFL but there are 30 of them not playing in this game.
wab wrote:The only way you can take a safety in the top 5 is if there is he is absolutely 100% can't miss and is the only piece missing on an already great defense.
I'm already seeing mocks with both Hooker and Adams going in the top 5. No way in hell.
Seeing how two of the top defenses to be seen in the last 5 years is because of the superior safety play of Cam Chancelor and Eric Berry, I don't see how you can say that with a straight face. The Raven defense that basically won the superbowl with a little help from Jamal Lewis, was anchored by Ed Reed. Our own defense with Urlacher as it's face began to crumble when Mike Brown couldn't go.
I know that Safety is isn't a glamorous position by comparison with rush LB'ers and DE's, but they are what allow defenses to play close and take chances. Defences in this era of the NFL, where 3 wide shotgun is a staple alignment instead of something you only see in Buffalo, Houston and on 3rd and long. A true top safety would transform our defense IMO.
Allow me to counter with: "who are the starting safeties for the Falcons and Patriots".
I'll be impressed if you can name all 4 without looking them up.
This is kind of a bs question though, just because those players aren't star names doesn't take away the impact they have on the games. Of course everyone will know the name of the starting QB for each team but I wouldn't be shocked if people couldn't name the starting offensive linemen of each team, but without them playing as well as they did, we wouldn't be talking about Ryan or Brady or the importance of a QB. I am pretty sure most of us could name the starting QB for each team in the NFL but there are 30 of them not playing in this game.
It's not, though. I think everyone around here knows who Cam Chancellor, Eric Berry, and Ed Reed are. These are elite, game-changing safeties that do not grow on trees (and that's assuming you are using them correctly in your defensive system).
Look at the last 10 Super Bowls, these are the QBs:
Ryan
Brady
Manning
Newton
Brady
Wilson
Manning
Wilson
Flacco
Kaepernick
Eli Manning
Brady
Rodgers
Roethlisberger
Brees
Manning
Roethlisberger
Warner
Eli Manning
Brady
I'm of the opinion that if we fix our QB position and develop an offense, we have a better shot at going to the Super Bowl than if we drafted an elite, game-changing safety. Look at the Falcons, their defense is ranked 27th (worse than ours).
Last edited by G08 on Tue Jan 24, 2017 10:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
kind of funny actually, since the falcons took a safety in the first last year (keanu neal), pretty much everyone universally panned that pick, and then he was one of PFF's top rated rookies and now it's a talking point about the falcon's defensive turnaround.
wab wrote:The only way you can take a safety in the top 5 is if there is he is absolutely 100% can't miss and is the only piece missing on an already great defense.
I'm already seeing mocks with both Hooker and Adams going in the top 5. No way in hell.
Seeing how two of the top defenses to be seen in the last 5 years is because of the superior safety play of Cam Chancelor and Eric Berry, I don't see how you can say that with a straight face. The Raven defense that basically won the superbowl with a little help from Jamal Lewis, was anchored by Ed Reed. Our own defense with Urlacher as it's face began to crumble when Mike Brown couldn't go.
I know that Safety is isn't a glamorous position by comparison with rush LB'ers and DE's, but they are what allow defenses to play close and take chances. Defences in this era of the NFL, where 3 wide shotgun is a staple alignment instead of something you only see in Buffalo, Houston and on 3rd and long. A true top safety would transform our defense IMO.
Allow me to counter with: "who are the starting safeties for the Falcons and Patriots".
I'll be impressed if you can name all 4 without looking them up.
This is kind of a bs question though, just because those players aren't star names doesn't take away the impact they have on the games. Of course everyone will know the name of the starting QB for each team but I wouldn't be shocked if people couldn't name the starting offensive linemen of each team, but without them playing as well as they did, we wouldn't be talking about Ryan or Brady or the importance of a QB. I am pretty sure most of us could name the starting QB for each team in the NFL but there are 30 of them not playing in this game.
It's not, though. I think everyone around here knows who Cam Chancellor, Eric Berry, and Ed Reed are. These are elite, game-changing safeties that do not grow on trees (and that's assuming you are using them correctly in your defensive system).
Look at the last 10 Super Bowls, these are the QBs:
Ryan
Brady
Manning
Newton
Brady
Wilson
Manning
Wilson
Flacco
Kaepernick
Eli Manning
Brady
Rodgers
Roethlisberger
Brees
Manning
Roethlisberger
Warner
Eli Manning
Brady
RustyTrombone wrote:kind of funny actually, since the falcons took a safety in the first last year (keanu neal), pretty much everyone universally panned that pick, and then he was one of PFF's top rated rookies and now it's a talking point about the falcon's defensive turnaround.
"Defensive turnaround" all the way to 27th in the league in points allowed, considering they were 14th the year before?
RustyTrombone wrote:kind of funny actually, since the falcons took a safety in the first last year (keanu neal), pretty much everyone universally panned that pick, and then he was one of PFF's top rated rookies and now it's a talking point about the falcon's defensive turnaround.
"Defensive turnaround" all the way to 27th in the league in points allowed, considering they were 14th the year before?
Pass that shit over here man
It’s easy to be skeptical of a young unit, which was burned for 124 points in the season’s first four games and benefits greatly from an offense that regularly provides leads that allow the defense to play aggressively. Yet after smothering Seattle in the divisional round, the defense went a long way toward proving it isn’t merely riding the coattails of Ryan and Co. given the manner in which they shut out Rodgers and Green Bay in the first half Sunday.
ATLANTA -- It was supposed to be Atlanta's fatal flaw, the reason why the Falcons weren't trustworthy enough to reach their first Super Bowl appearance in nearly two decades. Yes, they could generate points like no other team in the NFL, but their defense would definitely be their undoing. Now there's a different narrative building deep inside the Dirty South. It's one that revolves around the notion that this defense might suddenly be the reason to believe this team might just win it all.
I am disliking seeing this guy's name on many of the popular mocks as going to the Bears with the #3 pick
I do not think Kizer is a ready-to-start caliber NFL QB, so in my opinion, that would eliminate him as a first round pick, and definitely not #3 in the first round
has anyone seen anything on Kizer to have a different opinion?
"Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things." George Carlin
wab wrote:The only way you can take a safety in the top 5 is if there is he is absolutely 100% can't miss and is the only piece missing on an already great defense.
I'm already seeing mocks with both Hooker and Adams going in the top 5. No way in hell.
Seeing how two of the top defenses to be seen in the last 5 years is because of the superior safety play of Cam Chancelor and Eric Berry, I don't see how you can say that with a straight face. The Raven defense that basically won the superbowl with a little help from Jamal Lewis, was anchored by Ed Reed. Our own defense with Urlacher as it's face began to crumble when Mike Brown couldn't go.
I know that Safety is isn't a glamorous position by comparison with rush LB'ers and DE's, but they are what allow defenses to play close and take chances. Defences in this era of the NFL, where 3 wide shotgun is a staple alignment instead of something you only see in Buffalo, Houston and on 3rd and long. A true top safety would transform our defense IMO.
Allow me to counter with: "who are the starting safeties for the Falcons and Patriots".
I'll be impressed if you can name all 4 without looking them up.
This is kind of a bs question though, just because those players aren't star names doesn't take away the impact they have on the games. Of course everyone will know the name of the starting QB for each team but I wouldn't be shocked if people couldn't name the starting offensive linemen of each team, but without them playing as well as they did, we wouldn't be talking about Ryan or Brady or the importance of a QB. I am pretty sure most of us could name the starting QB for each team in the NFL but there are 30 of them not playing in this game.
It's not, though. I think everyone around here knows who Cam Chancellor, Eric Berry, and Ed Reed are. These are elite, game-changing safeties that do not grow on trees (and that's assuming you are using them correctly in your defensive system).
Look at the last 10 Super Bowls, these are the QBs:
Ryan
Brady
Manning
Newton
Brady
Wilson
Manning
Wilson
Flacco
Kaepernick
Eli Manning
Brady
Rodgers
Roethlisberger
Brees
Manning
Roethlisberger
Warner
Eli Manning
Brady
I'm of the opinion that if we fix our QB position and develop an offense, we have a better shot at going to the Super Bowl than if we drafted an elite, game-changing safety. Look at the Falcons, their defense is ranked 27th (worse than ours).
I understand the point you are making, the QB is the most important position on the field... but to say that just because you don't know the names of the starting safeties that they play an important part in helping the team win, I would like to point you to this wonderful memory...
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And I bet both safety tandems rated highly on PFF for their play for the season... just because we may not know their name doesn't mean they aren't important. I think it's one of the most under valued positions in the NFL, honestly. That is the last line of your defense, but it is treated like it may not matter but teams with good safety play are normally in the playoffs.
I will also say - NE's starting safeties according to football-reference are
Devin McCourty - 1st round pick
Patrick Chung - 2nd round pick
Atlanta Falcons
Keanu Neal - 1st round pick
Richardo Allen - 5th round pick
So even though they aren't stars that can be named by everyone, they were mostly highly selected in their respective drafts.
Boris13c wrote:back on topic - Deshone Kizer, Notre Dame
I am disliking seeing this guy's name on many of the popular mocks as going to the Bears with the #3 pick
I do not think Kizer is a ready-to-start caliber NFL QB, so in my opinion, that would eliminate him as a first round pick, and definitely not #3 in the first round
has anyone seen anything on Kizer to have a different opinion?
I'm not a fan of his, personally. I think he has a huge arm, but after dealing with Cutler for the past 9 years or so I've realized arm strength is fun/sexy but not the most important thing for a QB.
The rate at which Kizer sails balls (max velocity as well) and then turns around and throws them at his target's feet makes me uneasy. Sure, you can clean that up with mechanics and drill work, but #3 is too rich for my blood.
