Argument

[G08]

I'm just going to leave this right here:

I don't ever want to hear anyone say that winning meaningless games in a non-playoff season is a good thing. I've argued it costs you draft currency, and look what happened. We beat San Fran week 13, and it LITERALLY COST US draft picks #67, #111, and a 2018 3rd round pick. That roughly amounts to the #38 overall pick in the draft.

/rant

[mmmc_35]

No god damn it, I want immediate gratification. Now. I want momentum, and carryover. I want I want.

[UOK]

It's too easy to look back on pointless wins as wasted opportunities to tank. This is low hanging fruit, but I understand what you're arguing.

You also need to look at it in the context of the season. Barkley was giving fans something to cheer for in an injury plagued season (at the time). Jordan Howard went for 117 yards & 3 touchdowns in an awesome snowy victory.

It was a nice breath of fresh air in a season that smelled like revolting shit.

I don't want a roster full of guys who willingly tank because of the greater good of the organization, so I'm not too peeved about it.

Let's look at the Bears history of glorious 3rd round picks recently:

Jonathan Bullard
Hroniss Grasu
Will Sutton
Brandon Hardin
Chris Conte
Major Wright
Jarron Gilbert
Juaqin Iglesias
Earl Bennett
Marcus Harrison
Garrett Wolfe
Michael Okwo

[Hematite]

Anybody that has any pride that has played any sport in the history of mankind (especially for their livelihood) who may or may not be replaced the next play, the next game, the next season, doesn't risk tanking. Sorry, but it's a silly argument.

[G08]

It's not low hanging fruit at all; I've had this argument on various boards FOREVER, and now it fucking materialized.

I'm going to highlight and underline it because it had a direct impact on us yesterday.

[Rockbear99]

Sorry G08 But I disagree. As Herm Edwards says 'YOU PLAY TO WIN THE GAMES.' I dont care about future draft position. I want players on the team that will play hard to the finale whistle, to the final gun, to the finale play of the season. That is what builds a winning tradition, not some unknown 3rd round draft pick. So yes I AM SELFISH AND WANT WINS.

[G08]

Sorry G08 But I disagree. As Herm Edwards says 'YOU PLAY TO WIN THE GAMES.' I dont care about future draft position. I want players on the team that will play hard to the finale whistle, to the final gun, to the finale play of the season. That is what builds a winning tradition, not some unknown 3rd round draft pick. So yes I AM SELFISH AND WANT WINS.

Nothing wrong with that, my friend. I have two roads in my head: playoffs and draft position. If I can't have one, I want the other

[Hematite]

Sorry G08 But I disagree. As Herm Edwards says 'YOU PLAY TO WIN THE GAMES.' I dont care about future draft position. I want players on the team that will play hard to the finale whistle, to the final gun, to the finale play of the season. That is what builds a winning tradition, not some unknown 3rd round draft pick. So yes I AM SELFISH AND WANT WINS.

Nothing wrong with that, my friend. I have two roads in my head: playoffs and draft position. If I can't have one, I want the other

Ideally, I completely agree with you. But a GM that promotes tanking and a coaching staff that promotes tanking will have lost all credibility with the players. These guys get paid a lot of money to compete and every loaf or missed tackle is catalogued for future analysis. In theory, you want to compete and lose on a last second field goal but in the real world it just doesn't work like that. Anyways, I feel you!

[Rockbear99]

As it is known I am a big NDSU Bison fan. I get behind the philosophy of Next Man Up and You dont play in the past or future you play in the present. This is the mantra I have been behind for many years now.

[UOK]

I get what he's arguing: It's 100% more profitable from a franchise perspective to go 0-16 than 3-13/etc.

That said, it's not a healthy or realistic way to experience NFL football, so I hope you only follow this philosophy gently.

[Otis Day]

The winning of "meaningless" game(s) did not have a direct impact in and of itself to this draft. The GM is the one who had the impact. He is the one that cost the extra picks, the actual losing of the game(s) did not. Beating SF did nothing but put a notch in the right hand column. This is on Pace and no one else.

Pros should never tank. JFL kids should never tank. It is irresponsible, lazy and complete bullshit.

[G08]

I get what he's arguing: It's 100% more profitable from a franchise perspective to go 0-16 than 3-13/etc.

That said, it's not a healthy or realistic way to experience NFL football, so I hope you only follow this philosophy gently.

Nope. When you're 2-9 in a 16 game season, I have zero rooting interest in winning games. None.

[thunderspirit]

I get what he's arguing: It's 100% more profitable from a franchise perspective to go 0-16 than 3-13/etc.

That said, it's not a healthy or realistic way to experience NFL football, so I hope you only follow this philosophy gently.

Nope. When you're 2-9 in a 16 game season, I have zero rooting interest in winning games. None.

You don't.
I don't.

The players and coaches check out like that, though, and they'll soon be ex-players and ex-coaches. Can't really blame them for still trying to win.

[RING4CHI]

The majority of players on the Bears roster for that win against San Francisco don't give two shits about draft position. Most of them are fighting to stay on an NFL roster themselves. They're never going to intentionally tank.

[staleystarch]

Sorry G08 But I disagree. As Herm Edwards says 'YOU PLAY TO WIN THE GAMES.' I dont care about future draft position. I want players on the team that will play hard to the finale whistle, to the final gun, to the finale play of the season. That is what builds a winning tradition, not some unknown 3rd round draft pick. So yes I AM SELFISH AND WANT WINS.

Nothing wrong with that, my friend. I have two roads in my head: playoffs and draft position. If I can't have one, I want the other

To me this is situational. Maybe a year in an early rebuilding phase like the Bears in 2016 I am in the either playoffs or draft postion mindset. But at some point a rebuilding team has to learn how to win games even if they are out of contention.

[RING4CHI]

Let's look at the Bears history of glorious 3rd round picks recently:

Jonathan Bullard
Hroniss Grasu
Will Sutton
Brandon Hardin
Chris Conte
Major Wright
Jarron Gilbert
Juaqin Iglesias
Earl Bennett
Marcus Harrison
Garrett Wolfe
Michael Okwo

This is why the Bears suck. Not because they've missed on 98% of their first round picks this milenium, but also because they can't draft after that.

The Seahawks traded out of their first round pick last night, meaning they've had one first round pick since 2012. They rely on later draft picks to build their depth.

[Moriarty]

I'm just going to leave this right here:

I don't ever want to hear anyone say that winning meaningless games in a non-playoff season is a good thing. I've argued it costs you draft currency, and look what happened. We beat San Fran week 13, and it LITERALLY COST US draft picks #67, #111, and a 2018 3rd round pick. That roughly amounts to the #38 overall pick in the draft.

/rant

Amen to that

[docc]

Hall of shame..

Jonathan Bullard
Hroniss Grasu
Will Sutton
Brandon Hardin
Chris Conte
Major Wright
Jarron Gilbert
Juaqin Iglesias
Earl Bennett
Marcus Harrison
Garrett Wolfe
Michael Okwo

[malk]

The winning of "meaningless" game(s) did not have a direct impact in and of itself to this draft. The GM is the one who had the impact. He is the one that cost the extra picks, the actual losing of the game(s) did not. Beating SF did nothing but put a notch in the right hand column. This is on Pace and no one else.

Pros should never tank. JFL kids should never tank. It is irresponsible, lazy and complete bullshit.

This, a thousand times this!

G08, I'm with you when it comes to the result of the season but that's about not signing players (like say Amukamara but perhaps Glennon too) that are only marginal increases to wins and not solidly you as a playoff team. The players on the field have to try all out or your culture goes to hell.

This is all on Pace.

[alexwilkins]

It's not like throwing that Niners game would've been easy. It was 26-6. Jordan ran it 32 times. Barkley only threw 18 passes. And missed 7.

[wab]

It's not like throwing that Niners game would've been easy. It was 26-6. Jordan ran it 32 times. Barkley only threw 18 passes. And missed 7.

It's hard to throw a game when your opponent is trying to do the same thing.

[o-pus #40 in B major]

It's not like throwing that Niners game would've been easy. It was 26-6. Jordan ran it 32 times. Barkley only threw 18 passes. And missed 7.

It's hard to throw a game when your opponent is trying to do the same thing.

[BamaBear09]

It's too easy to look back on pointless wins as wasted opportunities to tank. This is low hanging fruit, but I understand what you're arguing.

You also need to look at it in the context of the season. Barkley was giving fans something to cheer for in an injury plagued season (at the time). Jordan Howard went for 117 yards & 3 touchdowns in an awesome snowy victory.

It was a nice breath of fresh air in a season that smelled like revolting shit.

I don't want a roster full of guys who willingly tank because of the greater good of the organization, so I'm not too peeved about it.

Let's look at the Bears history of glorious 3rd round picks recently:

Jonathan Bullard
Hroniss Grasu
Will Sutton
Brandon Hardin
Chris Conte
Major Wright
Jarron Gilbert
Juaqin Iglesias
Earl Bennett
Marcus Harrison
Garrett Wolfe
Michael Okwo

I could break out the Bears history of drafting in the first round as a counter... basically this team has a good draft every few years and that's about it, which is why the team only goes to the playoffs every few years... remember this is the same team that selected Curtis Enis and Cedric Benson in the top 5 of their respective drafts... I was super excited beginning this draft and as soon as I saw the Bears had traded up, I was deflated because I knew it was for someone I really didn't want... didn't like Trubisky pre draft and the only thing that's going to change that is seeing him play well. I just doubt he's going to do that.

[Atkins&Rebel]

Tanking is for people with no self respect.
A team with no self respect will not magically find it again.
Beware what you wish for.

[wab]

NFL teams don't tank. At best they might not put themselves in the best position to win. But they don't outright tank. I'm not sure why this is even a thing.

[docc]

^^ THIS

and Atkins..

[Moriarty]

This whole argument is a giant string of ridiculousness, based on sloppy semantics and muddling all sorts of distinct concepts together.

• Is losing meaningless games better for a TEAM than winning meaningless games in the long run?
There are examples of both, but the overwhelming majority of the time (particularly in football), the TEAM is better off losing them. The 2016 win over SF G08 presented is an excellent example of this.

• Should PLAYERS deliberately throw games by going on the field and deliberately playing worse than they are capable?
Of course not. This virtually never happens (you’d damage your career, lose teammate trust, and are more likely to get hurt half-assing it), nor is it what anyone is suggesting. Move on.

• Should MANAGEMENT (GM and HC, primarily) play to lose?
Absolutely not and absolutely yes, depending on what type of ‘playing to lose’ you are talking about.

Deliberately teaching players bad technique or wrong assignments, cancelling all their practices, setting up a gameplan everyone knows is doomed to fail/calling bad plays on purpose, and telling players the team would be better off losing would have horrible impacts. And again, no one does this and no one is suggesting you should do this.

On the other hand, there are other types of ‘playing to lose’ that are different. When you have a young star who is struggling through an injury and you decide to shut them down for the season (or even sit them for a game or two more than you might in different circumstances), because the season is hopeless and you don’t want to ruin them, that is ‘playing to lose’. You are deliberately making your chances of winning in the short run worse, because improving your chances of winning in the longer run is more important. When (moreso in sports with longer seasons than football) you give players “rest days”, you are ‘playing to lose’ by deliberately making your chances of winning in the short run worse, because improving your chances of winning in the longer run is more important. When you cut aging, expensive veterans, because you’d rather develop a younger, cheaper player, who isn’t as good as the vet yet, but probably will be in the future, you are ‘playing to lose’ by deliberately making your chances of winning in the short run worse in order to improve your chances of winning in the long run. And the same thing goes for benching established vets late in a lost season, and bringing the kids in to evaluate and develop them. Deliberately making your chances of winning in the short run worse in order to improve your chances of winning in the long run.
Management ‘playing to lose’ is a very, very long-standing tradition in all major team sports with ongoing franchises. It’s been going on for longer than you’ve been alive. And nearly all fans endorse doing it at some point to some degree. This is the kind of behavior that people saying they want to see their team lose out are endorsing.

• Should FANS root for their team to lose?
First off, despite the illusion everyone likes to buy into of fan sentiment being critical, it isn’t that impactful. Me sitting in my basement, watching the game and thinking “I want the Bears to lose to SF” vs me sitting in my basement, watching the game and thinking “I want the Bears to beat to SF” doesn’t do anything to directly impact the game. Field goals don’t go straight or wide because you sat there wishing for it hard enough. Collectively, fanbase sentiment about whether winning meaningless games matters or not has perhaps a small impact on team strategy.

However, suppose we dismiss the impactfulness part of rooting, and just consider the “what would make you happier” part of it. Ask yourself, what brings you more satisfaction as a fan? Winning a pointless game or getting a better draft pick, which will give you hope for the future and, potentially win you a lot more than just one game, and games that matter? There’s no empirically, provably “right” answer, but to me – unless you plan on dying or ceasing to follow the team forever within the next few months – the answer is pretty overwhelmingly obvious. In situations like late 2016, I root for the team to play decently, but lose a close game, due to a bad call, slip on a wet field, tipped ball deflecting to the other team, or other fluke circumstance, because a better draft pick will make me a lot happier than a pointless, quickly forgotten win will.