EDGE rusher talk

College football and the NFL Draft

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Mikefive
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I was watching tape of both Landry and Davenport last night. I tried to watch Davenport against legit Div. I opponents. I can see why you'd like and dislike both guys.

With Landry, the word of the day is slippery. Once he gets anything on his opponent's side, it's like he's got Vaseline all over his jersey and will eventually slide by. He's a serious pass rush threat and he doesn't even have multiple moves yet. OTOH, if a run blocker gets his hands on Landry, he's done, unless he can change direction and get to the ball carrier. He's a real liability in the run game.

With Davenport, he has a bit more developed arsenal of moves, but he just doesn't seem as sneaky and productive as Landry with his pass rush, although his bull rush can do damage. And he's notably stronger and thus, not a run liability.

Both guys are good at staying with the play and not giving up. But they're not exceptional either.

I came away favoring Davenport because I think his game translates to the NFL better. I could be wrong, but I don't think Landry will be as slithery effective against NFL OTs, although he will be against some guys. And his run ineffectiveness will be a problem. Davenport OTOH will be a more balanced player whose pass rush could improve with NFL coaching. Landry could improve as well, but his seeming lack of strength holds him back.

If I'm playing against Landry, I just keep running the ball at him and I think I'd be successful. And that's a big negative for me.
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Adipost
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Mikefive wrote:I was watching tape of both Landry and Davenport last night. I tried to watch Davenport against legit Div. I opponents. I can see why you'd like and dislike both guys.

With Landry, the word of the day is slippery. Once he gets anything on his opponent's side, it's like he's got Vaseline all over his jersey and will eventually slide by. He's a serious pass rush threat and he doesn't even have multiple moves yet. OTOH, if a run blocker gets his hands on Landry, he's done, unless he can change direction and get to the ball carrier. He's a real liability in the run game.

With Davenport, he has a bit more developed arsenal of moves, but he just doesn't seem as sneaky and productive as Landry with his pass rush, although his bull rush can do damage. And he's notably stronger and thus, not a run liability.

Both guys are good at staying with the play and not giving up. But they're not exceptional either.

I came away favoring Davenport because I think his game translates to the NFL better. I could be wrong, but I don't think Landry will be as slithery effective against NFL OTs, although he will be against some guys. And his run ineffectiveness will be a problem. Davenport OTOH will be a more balanced player whose pass rush could improve with NFL coaching. Landry could improve as well, but his seeming lack of strength holds him back.

If I'm playing against Landry, I just keep running the ball at him and I think I'd be successful. And that's a big negative for me.
In UTSA’s defense, Davenport plays the STU DE role, basically just meaning he’s a Stand Up End. It’s important to differentiate between a STU and an OLB. In a 3-4 system, the SAM/WILL positions are protected by the 5 technique Defensive End on their sides. These DE’s absorb the Tackle’s initial punch and even if the Tackle later abandons the 5tech to pass set against the OLB on the edge, they are still accounting for that 5tech initially. This splits attention and makes life for the OLB easier. Also recognize that the OLB is able to line up in a wider technique. This make attacking the back shoulder of the QB easier, and with the 5tech the OLB is less concerned about getting burned on inside gap protection against the run.

So when we evaluate the STU’s role, we need to recognize that there is no 5tech. So even if the STU takes a wider technique, they are still playing a harder position due to not having that interior Defensive Lineman as extra insurance in the run game and a potential distraction in pass rushing. Instead Davenport’s position asked him to essentially account for the entirety of the outside for the left side of the defense. UTSA mostly runs a 6 man box, nixing the traditional 3rd LB for a Rover/Joker position in the Defensive Backfield. And they can do that because a player like Davenport is able to take on so much responsibility as both a pass rusher and a run stopper.

Landry lines up wide of the OT with his hand in the ground and has 1 thought in mind, get around the tackle. Davenports dline is shifted away from him, so he cannot lineup wide of the OT. He has to account for setting the edge as well as the inside gap run in a stand up stance. He can not go all out in either direction. The OT does not have to stay in at the snap of the ball to protect the inside, as there is no 5 tech there. The OT can fire back immediately, as his sole responsibility is Davenport. Understand that these 2 players had completely different responsibilities in college.
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If you want to know why Smith in the top 10, think of Shaq Thompson (25th) as his comp, then make him more athletic

I see Smith being used the same as Carolina uses Shaq Thompson - SAM and big nickel in a 4-3. It keeps him clean and lets him run around in coverage. Shaq was My Guy a few years ago and he's a bit of an unsung hero at Carolina because he's in Kuechly's shadow. Smith is a better athlete (because he's an insane athlete) but isn't quite the football player as Thompson. Shaq is a better blitzer IMO and a bit better in taking on blockers, though both look small and get man handled sometimes. I think it's a difference in instincts, but if you're a coach and think you can improve on his angles and leverage against blockers, you could get a Shaq Thompson +. That's how you go from 25 to 10.
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Adipost wrote:
Mikefive wrote:I was watching tape of both Landry and Davenport last night. I tried to watch Davenport against legit Div. I opponents. I can see why you'd like and dislike both guys.

With Landry, the word of the day is slippery. Once he gets anything on his opponent's side, it's like he's got Vaseline all over his jersey and will eventually slide by. He's a serious pass rush threat and he doesn't even have multiple moves yet. OTOH, if a run blocker gets his hands on Landry, he's done, unless he can change direction and get to the ball carrier. He's a real liability in the run game.

With Davenport, he has a bit more developed arsenal of moves, but he just doesn't seem as sneaky and productive as Landry with his pass rush, although his bull rush can do damage. And he's notably stronger and thus, not a run liability.

Both guys are good at staying with the play and not giving up. But they're not exceptional either.

I came away favoring Davenport because I think his game translates to the NFL better. I could be wrong, but I don't think Landry will be as slithery effective against NFL OTs, although he will be against some guys. And his run ineffectiveness will be a problem. Davenport OTOH will be a more balanced player whose pass rush could improve with NFL coaching. Landry could improve as well, but his seeming lack of strength holds him back.

If I'm playing against Landry, I just keep running the ball at him and I think I'd be successful. And that's a big negative for me.
In UTSA’s defense, Davenport plays the STU DE role, basically just meaning he’s a Stand Up End. It’s important to differentiate between a STU and an OLB. In a 3-4 system, the SAM/WILL positions are protected by the 5 technique Defensive End on their sides. These DE’s absorb the Tackle’s initial punch and even if the Tackle later abandons the 5tech to pass set against the OLB on the edge, they are still accounting for that 5tech initially. This splits attention and makes life for the OLB easier. Also recognize that the OLB is able to line up in a wider technique. This make attacking the back shoulder of the QB easier, and with the 5tech the OLB is less concerned about getting burned on inside gap protection against the run.

So when we evaluate the STU’s role, we need to recognize that there is no 5tech. So even if the STU takes a wider technique, they are still playing a harder position due to not having that interior Defensive Lineman as extra insurance in the run game and a potential distraction in pass rushing. Instead Davenport’s position asked him to essentially account for the entirety of the outside for the left side of the defense. UTSA mostly runs a 6 man box, nixing the traditional 3rd LB for a Rover/Joker position in the Defensive Backfield. And they can do that because a player like Davenport is able to take on so much responsibility as both a pass rusher and a run stopper.

Landry lines up wide of the OT with his hand in the ground and has 1 thought in mind, get around the tackle. Davenports dline is shifted away from him, so he cannot lineup wide of the OT. He has to account for setting the edge as well as the inside gap run in a stand up stance. He can not go all out in either direction. The OT does not have to stay in at the snap of the ball to protect the inside, as there is no 5 tech there. The OT can fire back immediately, as his sole responsibility is Davenport. Understand that these 2 players had completely different responsibilities in college.
Thanks for educating me. That does explain how he got bottled up quite often--too often--on pass plays.

One other thing that I noticed was like once I saw Davenport drop into coverage and he didn't look awkward or slow at it. His playing (not always but a lot) out of a 2 point stance really shows that he is ready to be a 3-4 OLB, even if he needs refining.
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Go back to leather helmets, NFL.
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After Bradley Chubb, who is the 2nd best EDGE rusher in this draft?

Daniel Jeremiah: Marcus Davenport (improvement from day 1 of Senior Bowl to the game was obvious, he was wrecking shop. Violent, explosive, size/length. Not there now but he will get there)

Bucky Brooks: Harold Landry (elite traits, bend and burst, snap count anticipation)
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Amazing read on Josh Sweat

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2770 ... -the-draft" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Anyone have any thoughts on this kid? Killed the combine!
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G08 wrote:Amazing read on Josh Sweat

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2770 ... -the-draft" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Anyone have any thoughts on this kid? Killed the combine!
He is an easy kid to like but the injury and thin leg thing is hard to "scout" without medical info.
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Yeah, more than most, medical is key on Sweat.
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dplank wrote:I agree with Rich here
RichH55 wrote: Dplank is correct
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The best thing about the Josh Sweat cutups I've seen is the occasional appearances by Derwin James. He really does take a full beat after the snap of the ball to... diagnose? His best move is a bull rush, I think. He breaks it out after a couple of outside moves and it can be effective at unbalancing his blocker. I can't imagine that'll work in the NFL. He doesn't bend well and his hand fighting more resembles a DT than an EDGE guy. He just wrestles with his blocker and occasionally wins because he's a great athlete but again... I can't imagine him doing this consistently in the NFL. Overall I think he's my least favorite of any of the prospects we're discussing at 8.
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G08 wrote:After Bradley Chubb, who is the 2nd best EDGE rusher in this draft?

Daniel Jeremiah: Marcus Davenport (improvement from day 1 of Senior Bowl to the game was obvious, he was wrecking shop. Violent, explosive, size/length. Not there now but he will get there)

Bucky Brooks: Harold Landry (elite traits, bend and burst, snap count anticipation)
My $$$ is on Davenport.
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Looks like Josh Sweat would be a good pick at #39.
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Adipost wrote:
Looks like Josh Sweat would be a good pick at #39.
Pending medicals, I really like Sweat and Turay. I think Turay might be a reach at #39, so it would likely be in some sort of trade down.
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This is pretty good stuff.
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dplank wrote:I agree with Rich here
RichH55 wrote: Dplank is correct
:shocked:
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thunderspirit wrote:This is pretty good stuff.
I thought you'd like it!
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Marcus Davenport comp:
PRO PLAYER COMPARISON: Leonard Floyd, Chicago Bears
Holy Shit - We got Justin Fields!

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Hiphopopotamos wrote:

Marcus Davenport comp:
PRO PLAYER COMPARISON: Leonard Floyd, Chicago Bears
That's a terrible, terrible comp.
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G08 wrote:
Hiphopopotamos wrote:

Marcus Davenport comp:
PRO PLAYER COMPARISON: Leonard Floyd, Chicago Bears
That's a terrible, terrible comp.
It's...it's pretty bad, yeah.

And I like Matt Miller, but I don't know what he's seeing there.
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dplank wrote:I agree with Rich here
RichH55 wrote: Dplank is correct
:shocked:
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I don't get his comparison of Bradley Chubb to Terrell Suggs, either. Chubb is a lot more Everson Griffin.
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dplank wrote:I agree with Rich here
RichH55 wrote: Dplank is correct
:shocked:
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G08 wrote:
Hiphopopotamos wrote:

Marcus Davenport comp:
PRO PLAYER COMPARISON: Leonard Floyd, Chicago Bears
That's a terrible, terrible comp.
He said what???
Image
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Davenport comp in my opinion is Ziggy Ansah. Both are similar height length and raw coming out. Aside from the physical, they both have naturally strong hands, and impressive bull rush, need to refine technique, and get by on ability over skill.

Davenport. Ansah

H. -' 77" --- 77"
W. -- 264lbs. ---- 271lbs
A. -- 33.625" ---- 34.5"
H. -- 9.125" ---- 10.25"
10Y. ---1.62 ---- 1.63
40Y. -- 4.58 ---- 4.63
BP. --- 22 ----- 21
VJ. --- 33.5 34.5"
BJ. ---124. --- 118"
3C. ---7.2 ---- 7.11
20YS --- 4.41. ---- 4.26
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mmmc_35 wrote:Davenport comp in my opinion is Ziggy Ansah. Both are similar height length and raw coming out. Aside from the physical, they both have naturally strong hands, and impressive bull rush, need to refine technique, and get by on ability over skill.

Davenport. Ansah

H. -' 77" --- 77"
W. -- 264lbs. ---- 271lbs
A. -- 33.625" ---- 34.5"
H. -- 9.125" ---- 10.25"
10Y. ---1.62 ---- 1.63
40Y. -- 4.58 ---- 4.63
BP. --- 22 ----- 21
VJ. --- 33.5 34.5"
BJ. ---124. --- 118"
3C. ---7.2 ---- 7.11
20YS --- 4.41. ---- 4.26
Yup, and you can throw in Jadeveon Clowney:

6052/266 lbs/34.5" arms/10" hands
1.59/2.68/4.53
21 reps
37.5" vert
10'04" broad
4.43 shuttle
7.27 cone

Marcus Davenport:

6056/264 lbs/33.625" arms/9.125" hands
1.62/2.67/4.58
22 reps
33.5" vert
10'04" broad
4.41 shuttle
7.20 cone
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