EDGE rusher talk

[G08]

From the Sacramento Bee:

Keval Patel‏ @keval81 Why do most mock draft experts seem to be so much higher on Landry than Davenport? Davenport was bigger, faster, and stronger at the combine. Has bend + violent hands. Landry looks like he has one move: bend. Not like BC plays powerhouse programs either.

ANSW: First of all, how dare you insult the University of Virginia? (Insulting Duke and North Carolina is fine and, in fact, is encouraged.) Second, the term "mock-draft expert" is a bit of an oxymoron. Sort of like "YouTube star." Third, I agree with you. Harold Landry definitely has the superior public relations staff of the two. The few NFL experts I've talked to on the matter all like Marcus Davenport because he is more physical with a bigger upside. In fact, some of the evaluators I've spoken with have Arden Key rated ahead of Landry. When the Path to the Draft crew picked the 49ers' first three selections on Monday, they had Davenport going at No. 9. (49ers Webzone transcribed the segment). The 49ers, of course, worked out Davenport at his pro day. They only sent a regional scout to Landry's pro day. Does that prove they like one and not the other? Absolutely not. It may be they have more questions about one vs. the other. There are plenty of things we don't know about all these guys – off-field issues, etc. – and it will be interesting to see how the pass rushers play out on April 26 and 27.

[wab]

Gah, I don't even care anymore. I hope they take a kicker at #8.

[G08]

Gah, I don't even care anymore. I hope they take a kicker at #8.

I don't either, just keeping the masses informed when I come across shiat

[Adipost]

From the Sacramento Bee:

Keval Patel‏ @keval81 Why do most mock draft experts seem to be so much higher on Landry than Davenport? Davenport was bigger, faster, and stronger at the combine. Has bend + violent hands. Landry looks like he has one move: bend. Not like BC plays powerhouse programs either.

ANSW: First of all, how dare you insult the University of Virginia? (Insulting Duke and North Carolina is fine and, in fact, is encouraged.) Second, the term "mock-draft expert" is a bit of an oxymoron. Sort of like "YouTube star." Third, I agree with you. Harold Landry definitely has the superior public relations staff of the two. The few NFL experts I've talked to on the matter all like Marcus Davenport because he is more physical with a bigger upside. In fact, some of the evaluators I've spoken with have Arden Key rated ahead of Landry. When the Path to the Draft crew picked the 49ers' first three selections on Monday, they had Davenport going at No. 9. (49ers Webzone transcribed the segment). The 49ers, of course, worked out Davenport at his pro day. They only sent a regional scout to Landry's pro day. Does that prove they like one and not the other? Absolutely not. It may be they have more questions about one vs. the other. There are plenty of things we don't know about all these guys – off-field issues, etc. – and it will be interesting to see how the pass rushers play out on April 26 and 27.

Arden Key ahead of Landry? Wow

[Adipost]

ESPN SackSEER pass rusher rankings

1. Marcus Davenport
2. Bradley Chubb
3. Harold Landry
4. Sam Hubbard
5. Josh Sweat
6. Tyquan Lewis
7. Lorenzo Carter
8. Uchenna Nwosu
9. Arden Key

[G08]

ESPN SackSEER pass rusher rankings

1. Marcus Davenport
2. Bradley Chubb
3. Harold Landry
4. Sam Hubbard
5. Josh Sweat
6. Tyquan Lewis
7. Lorenzo Carter
8. Uchenna Nwosu
9. Arden Key

SackSEER's projections are based on a statistical analysis of the factors that have historically correlated to success as an NFL edge rusher. SackSEER has predicted success for current stars Von Miller, Khalil Mack and Justin Houston. SackSEER also has identified several high-profile busts at the edge rusher position, including Dion Jordan, Marcus Smith and Jarvis Jones. SackSEER had its fair share of misses as well, but it nevertheless provides a good starting point for discussing the likelihood that an edge rusher prospect will collect high sack numbers at the NFL level.

[thunderspirit]

Ja'von Rolland-jones pro day numbers are...uninspiring.
http://draftanalyst.com/pro-day-april-5-arkansas-state" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[wab]

Ja'von Rolland-jones pro day numbers are...uninspiring.
http://draftanalyst.com/pro-day-april-5-arkansas-state" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Yeah. My flame for him burned bright and fast.

[DaSuperfan]

Personally, I'm a Landry guy over Davenport - but that's not to say I don't like Davenport at all. I wouldn't be upset if that's who the Bears end up with. He's got a ton of upside, I just see him as more of a risk with a lower floor than Landry. Conversely, he has a higher ceiling than Landry because of the size, length and speed combination. So, really it's going to come down to how well the Bears scouts and Ryan Pace have evaluated all of the edge rusher prospects and how they fit into their scheme.

[Adipost]

Ja'von Rolland-jones pro day numbers are...uninspiring.
http://draftanalyst.com/pro-day-april-5-arkansas-state" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Was this dude running these drills on a torn ACL or something?

[cblaz11]

I would say that 90% of mocks I've seen have had Davenport over Landry. Also, if your looking at a mock and it has Key in the first two rounds, move on. No way he goes before Rd 3.

[G08]

Personally, I'm a Landry guy over Davenport - but that's not to say I don't like Davenport at all. I wouldn't be upset if that's who the Bears end up with. He's got a ton of upside, I just see him as more of a risk with a lower floor than Landry. Conversely, he has a higher ceiling than Landry because of the size, length and speed combination. So, really it's going to come down to how well the Bears scouts and Ryan Pace have evaluated all of the edge rusher prospects and how they fit into their scheme.

It's whatever your flavor is, for sure. I think Davenport is just scratching the surface of how good he can be; he has a motor and athleticism/size that you just can't teach. Once he figures out how to use his hands and feet together, I think the sky will be the limit for him. I also like him more than Landry, for the Bears, because he's bigger/stronger than Leonard Floyd and won't be a liability in the run game. He's a 3 down OLB right off the bat if Nagy/Fangio wanted. If I had to guess, they'd still trot Acho out there in base and work Davenport in clear passing situations. It's slowly turning into a no-brainer for me if he's there at #8.

[Adipost]

Personally, I'm a Landry guy over Davenport - but that's not to say I don't like Davenport at all. I wouldn't be upset if that's who the Bears end up with. He's got a ton of upside, I just see him as more of a risk with a lower floor than Landry. Conversely, he has a higher ceiling than Landry because of the size, length and speed combination. So, really it's going to come down to how well the Bears scouts and Ryan Pace have evaluated all of the edge rusher prospects and how they fit into their scheme.

It's whatever your flavor is, for sure. I think Davenport is just scratching the surface of how good he can be; he has a motor and athleticism/size that you just can't teach. Once he figures out how to use his hands and feet together, I think the sky will be the limit for him. I also like him more than Landry, for the Bears, because he's bigger/stronger than Leonard Floyd and won't be a liability in the run game. He's a 3 down OLB right off the bat if Nagy/Fangio wanted. If I had to guess, they'd still trot Acho out there in base and work Davenport in clear passing situations. It's slowly turning into a no-brainer for me if he's there at #8.

He’s even got the patented Clowney hit...

[G08]

Personally, I'm a Landry guy over Davenport - but that's not to say I don't like Davenport at all. I wouldn't be upset if that's who the Bears end up with. He's got a ton of upside, I just see him as more of a risk with a lower floor than Landry. Conversely, he has a higher ceiling than Landry because of the size, length and speed combination. So, really it's going to come down to how well the Bears scouts and Ryan Pace have evaluated all of the edge rusher prospects and how they fit into their scheme.

It's whatever your flavor is, for sure. I think Davenport is just scratching the surface of how good he can be; he has a motor and athleticism/size that you just can't teach. Once he figures out how to use his hands and feet together, I think the sky will be the limit for him. I also like him more than Landry, for the Bears, because he's bigger/stronger than Leonard Floyd and won't be a liability in the run game. He's a 3 down OLB right off the bat if Nagy/Fangio wanted. If I had to guess, they'd still trot Acho out there in base and work Davenport in clear passing situations. It's slowly turning into a no-brainer for me if he's there at #8.

He’s even got the patented Clowney hit...

The power he generates from his lower-half/hips is tremendous.

[wab]

To me it comes down to Davenport/Smith/Edmunds. This is assuming Nelson is gone.

*I'm getting that Leonard Williams feeling with Nelson...like he goes to TB a pick before the Bears and my heart breaks.

[G08]

To me it comes down to Davenport/Smith/Edmunds. This is assuming Nelson is gone.

*I'm getting that Leonard Williams feeling with Nelson...like he goes to TB a pick before the Bears and my heart breaks.

Sell me on Roquan Smith. I don't get it as a top 8 pick.

[UOK]

To me it comes down to Davenport/Smith/Edmunds. This is assuming Nelson is gone.

*I'm getting that Leonard Williams feeling with Nelson...like he goes to TB a pick before the Bears and my heart breaks.

Sell me on Roquan Smith. I don't get it as a top 8 pick.

I was watching more Smith tape a bit ago. He's a top 20 pick, but nothing about him says top 10. Watching some of his tape compared to Leonard Floyd's georgia tape is just incomparable. Floyd was a force of destruction. Roquan Smith is Warrick Holdman.

Not that there's anything wrong with Warrick Holdman at all, mind you, but with the 8th overall pick in the draft, you take a difference maker. I don't see that from Smith.

[thunderspirit]

Roquan Smith is a faster version of Lavonte David, with the ability to cover slot receivers.

For a 4-3 team that relies on the WLB to run and tackle, he's absolutely ideal. He'd have shone like the sun in Lovie Smith's defense.
For a 3-4 team that relies on the ILBs to take on offensive linemen regularly, he's far less ideal. He'd be a less productive Danny Trevathan in Vic Fangio's scheme.

[wab]

To me it comes down to Davenport/Smith/Edmunds. This is assuming Nelson is gone.

*I'm getting that Leonard Williams feeling with Nelson...like he goes to TB a pick before the Bears and my heart breaks.

Sell me on Roquan Smith. I don't get it as a top 8 pick.

I guess, it's not really so much that I'd want Smith, it's just that I think the Bears could potentially take him. I have no basis for that though, other than a lazy "Vic wants his Willis/Bowman" thought process.

[G08]

Marcus Davenport
‏

@MarcusJD84
10 Nov 2017
More
Football has been my way of coping with the stressors of life, it's not just the release of built up aggression but it's been my place of alleviation. It's a place where I don't have to worry about the world because on the field it doesn't exist.

[Mikefive]

I was watching tape of both Landry and Davenport last night. I tried to watch Davenport against legit Div. I opponents. I can see why you'd like and dislike both guys.

With Landry, the word of the day is slippery. Once he gets anything on his opponent's side, it's like he's got Vaseline all over his jersey and will eventually slide by. He's a serious pass rush threat and he doesn't even have multiple moves yet. OTOH, if a run blocker gets his hands on Landry, he's done, unless he can change direction and get to the ball carrier. He's a real liability in the run game.

With Davenport, he has a bit more developed arsenal of moves, but he just doesn't seem as sneaky and productive as Landry with his pass rush, although his bull rush can do damage. And he's notably stronger and thus, not a run liability.

Both guys are good at staying with the play and not giving up. But they're not exceptional either.

I came away favoring Davenport because I think his game translates to the NFL better. I could be wrong, but I don't think Landry will be as slithery effective against NFL OTs, although he will be against some guys. And his run ineffectiveness will be a problem. Davenport OTOH will be a more balanced player whose pass rush could improve with NFL coaching. Landry could improve as well, but his seeming lack of strength holds him back.

If I'm playing against Landry, I just keep running the ball at him and I think I'd be successful. And that's a big negative for me.

[Adipost]

I was watching tape of both Landry and Davenport last night. I tried to watch Davenport against legit Div. I opponents. I can see why you'd like and dislike both guys.

With Landry, the word of the day is slippery. Once he gets anything on his opponent's side, it's like he's got Vaseline all over his jersey and will eventually slide by. He's a serious pass rush threat and he doesn't even have multiple moves yet. OTOH, if a run blocker gets his hands on Landry, he's done, unless he can change direction and get to the ball carrier. He's a real liability in the run game.

With Davenport, he has a bit more developed arsenal of moves, but he just doesn't seem as sneaky and productive as Landry with his pass rush, although his bull rush can do damage. And he's notably stronger and thus, not a run liability.

Both guys are good at staying with the play and not giving up. But they're not exceptional either.

I came away favoring Davenport because I think his game translates to the NFL better. I could be wrong, but I don't think Landry will be as slithery effective against NFL OTs, although he will be against some guys. And his run ineffectiveness will be a problem. Davenport OTOH will be a more balanced player whose pass rush could improve with NFL coaching. Landry could improve as well, but his seeming lack of strength holds him back.

If I'm playing against Landry, I just keep running the ball at him and I think I'd be successful. And that's a big negative for me.

In UTSA’s defense, Davenport plays the STU DE role, basically just meaning he’s a Stand Up End. It’s important to differentiate between a STU and an OLB. In a 3-4 system, the SAM/WILL positions are protected by the 5 technique Defensive End on their sides. These DE’s absorb the Tackle’s initial punch and even if the Tackle later abandons the 5tech to pass set against the OLB on the edge, they are still accounting for that 5tech initially. This splits attention and makes life for the OLB easier. Also recognize that the OLB is able to line up in a wider technique. This make attacking the back shoulder of the QB easier, and with the 5tech the OLB is less concerned about getting burned on inside gap protection against the run.

So when we evaluate the STU’s role, we need to recognize that there is no 5tech. So even if the STU takes a wider technique, they are still playing a harder position due to not having that interior Defensive Lineman as extra insurance in the run game and a potential distraction in pass rushing. Instead Davenport’s position asked him to essentially account for the entirety of the outside for the left side of the defense. UTSA mostly runs a 6 man box, nixing the traditional 3rd LB for a Rover/Joker position in the Defensive Backfield. And they can do that because a player like Davenport is able to take on so much responsibility as both a pass rusher and a run stopper.

Landry lines up wide of the OT with his hand in the ground and has 1 thought in mind, get around the tackle. Davenports dline is shifted away from him, so he cannot lineup wide of the OT. He has to account for setting the edge as well as the inside gap run in a stand up stance. He can not go all out in either direction. The OT does not have to stay in at the snap of the ball to protect the inside, as there is no 5 tech there. The OT can fire back immediately, as his sole responsibility is Davenport. Understand that these 2 players had completely different responsibilities in college.

[crueltyabc]

If you want to know why Smith in the top 10, think of Shaq Thompson (25th) as his comp, then make him more athletic

I see Smith being used the same as Carolina uses Shaq Thompson - SAM and big nickel in a 4-3. It keeps him clean and lets him run around in coverage. Shaq was My Guy a few years ago and he's a bit of an unsung hero at Carolina because he's in Kuechly's shadow. Smith is a better athlete (because he's an insane athlete) but isn't quite the football player as Thompson. Shaq is a better blitzer IMO and a bit better in taking on blockers, though both look small and get man handled sometimes. I think it's a difference in instincts, but if you're a coach and think you can improve on his angles and leverage against blockers, you could get a Shaq Thompson +. That's how you go from 25 to 10.

[Mikefive]

I was watching tape of both Landry and Davenport last night. I tried to watch Davenport against legit Div. I opponents. I can see why you'd like and dislike both guys.

With Landry, the word of the day is slippery. Once he gets anything on his opponent's side, it's like he's got Vaseline all over his jersey and will eventually slide by. He's a serious pass rush threat and he doesn't even have multiple moves yet. OTOH, if a run blocker gets his hands on Landry, he's done, unless he can change direction and get to the ball carrier. He's a real liability in the run game.

With Davenport, he has a bit more developed arsenal of moves, but he just doesn't seem as sneaky and productive as Landry with his pass rush, although his bull rush can do damage. And he's notably stronger and thus, not a run liability.

Both guys are good at staying with the play and not giving up. But they're not exceptional either.

I came away favoring Davenport because I think his game translates to the NFL better. I could be wrong, but I don't think Landry will be as slithery effective against NFL OTs, although he will be against some guys. And his run ineffectiveness will be a problem. Davenport OTOH will be a more balanced player whose pass rush could improve with NFL coaching. Landry could improve as well, but his seeming lack of strength holds him back.

If I'm playing against Landry, I just keep running the ball at him and I think I'd be successful. And that's a big negative for me.

In UTSA’s defense, Davenport plays the STU DE role, basically just meaning he’s a Stand Up End. It’s important to differentiate between a STU and an OLB. In a 3-4 system, the SAM/WILL positions are protected by the 5 technique Defensive End on their sides. These DE’s absorb the Tackle’s initial punch and even if the Tackle later abandons the 5tech to pass set against the OLB on the edge, they are still accounting for that 5tech initially. This splits attention and makes life for the OLB easier. Also recognize that the OLB is able to line up in a wider technique. This make attacking the back shoulder of the QB easier, and with the 5tech the OLB is less concerned about getting burned on inside gap protection against the run.

So when we evaluate the STU’s role, we need to recognize that there is no 5tech. So even if the STU takes a wider technique, they are still playing a harder position due to not having that interior Defensive Lineman as extra insurance in the run game and a potential distraction in pass rushing. Instead Davenport’s position asked him to essentially account for the entirety of the outside for the left side of the defense. UTSA mostly runs a 6 man box, nixing the traditional 3rd LB for a Rover/Joker position in the Defensive Backfield. And they can do that because a player like Davenport is able to take on so much responsibility as both a pass rusher and a run stopper.

Landry lines up wide of the OT with his hand in the ground and has 1 thought in mind, get around the tackle. Davenports dline is shifted away from him, so he cannot lineup wide of the OT. He has to account for setting the edge as well as the inside gap run in a stand up stance. He can not go all out in either direction. The OT does not have to stay in at the snap of the ball to protect the inside, as there is no 5 tech there. The OT can fire back immediately, as his sole responsibility is Davenport. Understand that these 2 players had completely different responsibilities in college.

Thanks for educating me. That does explain how he got bottled up quite often--too often--on pass plays.

One other thing that I noticed was like once I saw Davenport drop into coverage and he didn't look awkward or slow at it. His playing (not always but a lot) out of a 2 point stance really shows that he is ready to be a 3-4 OLB, even if he needs refining.

[G08]

After Bradley Chubb, who is the 2nd best EDGE rusher in this draft?

Daniel Jeremiah: Marcus Davenport (improvement from day 1 of Senior Bowl to the game was obvious, he was wrecking shop. Violent, explosive, size/length. Not there now but he will get there)

Bucky Brooks: Harold Landry (elite traits, bend and burst, snap count anticipation)

[G08]

Amazing read on Josh Sweat

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2770 ... -the-draft" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Anyone have any thoughts on this kid? Killed the combine!

[mmmc_35]

Amazing read on Josh Sweat

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2770 ... -the-draft" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Anyone have any thoughts on this kid? Killed the combine!

He is an easy kid to like but the injury and thin leg thing is hard to "scout" without medical info.

[thunderspirit]

Yeah, more than most, medical is key on Sweat.

[crueltyabc]

The best thing about the Josh Sweat cutups I've seen is the occasional appearances by Derwin James. He really does take a full beat after the snap of the ball to... diagnose? His best move is a bull rush, I think. He breaks it out after a couple of outside moves and it can be effective at unbalancing his blocker. I can't imagine that'll work in the NFL. He doesn't bend well and his hand fighting more resembles a DT than an EDGE guy. He just wrestles with his blocker and occasionally wins because he's a great athlete but again... I can't imagine him doing this consistently in the NFL. Overall I think he's my least favorite of any of the prospects we're discussing at 8.

[Mikefive]

After Bradley Chubb, who is the 2nd best EDGE rusher in this draft?

Daniel Jeremiah: Marcus Davenport (improvement from day 1 of Senior Bowl to the game was obvious, he was wrecking shop. Violent, explosive, size/length. Not there now but he will get there)

Bucky Brooks: Harold Landry (elite traits, bend and burst, snap count anticipation)

My $$$ is on Davenport.