Ryan Pace: How Ya Like Him Now?

[Mikefive]

Think about what Green Bay would be if they had Mack? And yet, there are good reasons why they didn't offer more in trade, significant cap consequences among them.

One of the main reasons the Bears landed Mack over some of the other reported teams is because the Raiders thought the Bears would have higher picks in each round...as opposed to say the Packers or Rams.

True. But the Packers could've still offered more. Like offering the 2 #1s straight up without expecting the #2 back, perhaps.

To WAB's point. Suppose we had offered two straight #1's. The Raiders would have STILL taken the Bears offer. Why? Because the Raiders were projecting, with a rookie QB and a new coach, that those picks would land in the top 15 in both 2019, and 2020. Whereas they were betting that with Aaron Rodgers, the two Packers #1 picks would have both been in the bottom 20 of the draft. Pace was able to get the 2nd round pick, because of this perception on the part of the Raiders. NO WAY would they have done the deal, if they thought they would be getting a 20th+ pick in 2019 and a upper 20's pick in 2020, effectively trading up about 10-12 spots. The better the Bears do this year and next, the more this deal looks like a disaster for Gruden.

Of course our draft picks were projected to be better. There's an infinite number of ways they could've sweetened the offer though. What if they threw in Nick Perry, who's still on his rookie contract and who they wouldn't necessarily need if they had Mack? There are ways if you want to make a move. Especially when it's for a certain HOFer in his prime. But salary cap limits matter, too. That's all I'm saying.

[wab]

Think about what Green Bay would be if they had Mack? And yet, there are good reasons why they didn't offer more in trade, significant cap consequences among them.

One of the main reasons the Bears landed Mack over some of the other reported teams is because the Raiders thought the Bears would have higher picks in each round...as opposed to say the Packers or Rams.

True. But the Packers could've still offered more. Like offering the 2 #1s straight up without expecting the #2 back, perhaps.

To WAB's point. Suppose we had offered two straight #1's. The Raiders would have STILL taken the Bears offer. Why? Because the Raiders were projecting, with a rookie QB and a new coach, that those picks would land in the top 15 in both 2019, and 2020. Whereas they were betting that with Aaron Rodgers, the two Packers #1 picks would have both been in the bottom 20 of the draft. Pace was able to get the 2nd round pick, because of this perception on the part of the Raiders. NO WAY would they have done the deal, if they thought they would be getting a 20th+ pick in 2019 and a upper 20's pick in 2020, effectively trading up about 10-12 spots. The better the Bears do this year and next, the more this deal looks like a disaster for Gruden.

Of course our draft picks were projected to be better. There's an infinite number of ways they could've sweetened the offer though. What if they threw in Nick Perry, who's still on his rookie contract and who they wouldn't necessarily need if they had Mack? There are ways if you want to make a move. Especially when it's for a certain HOFer in his prime. But salary cap limits matter, too. That's all I'm saying.

Except Nick Perry was drafted in 2012 and isn't on his rookie deal. He signed a a five-year $60 million deal that included a $18.5 million signing bonus in 2017.

[Bears Whiskey Nut]

Think about what Green Bay would be if they had Mack? And yet, there are good reasons why they didn't offer more in trade, significant cap consequences among them.

One of the main reasons the Bears landed Mack over some of the other reported teams is because the Raiders thought the Bears would have higher picks in each round...as opposed to say the Packers or Rams.

True. But the Packers could've still offered more. Like offering the 2 #1s straight up without expecting the #2 back, perhaps.

To WAB's point. Suppose we had offered two straight #1's. The Raiders would have STILL taken the Bears offer. Why? Because the Raiders were projecting, with a rookie QB and a new coach, that those picks would land in the top 15 in both 2019, and 2020. Whereas they were betting that with Aaron Rodgers, the two Packers #1 picks would have both been in the bottom 20 of the draft. Pace was able to get the 2nd round pick, because of this perception on the part of the Raiders. NO WAY would they have done the deal, if they thought they would be getting a 20th+ pick in 2019 and a upper 20's pick in 2020, effectively trading up about 10-12 spots. The better the Bears do this year and next, the more this deal looks like a disaster for Gruden.

Of course our draft picks were projected to be better. There's an infinite number of ways they could've sweetened the offer though. What if they threw in Nick Perry, who's still on his rookie contract and who they wouldn't necessarily need if they had Mack? There are ways if you want to make a move. Especially when it's for a certain HOFer in his prime. But salary cap limits matter, too. That's all I'm saying.

Yes you are right. We don't have a 35 year-old $140M QB with a gimpy knee on our roster, that is true.

[Mikefive]

Whoops! I thought he was. I guess I'm not the expert on Packers that you are.

[wab]

Whoops! I thought he was. I guess I'm not the expert on Packers that you are.

Google is a real thing...

[Mikefive]

Whoops! I thought he was. I guess I'm not the expert on Packers that you are.

Google is a real thing...

Well played. You caught me at a shoot from the hip moment.

[The Marshall Plan]

Might be too early to extend Biscuit, but I'm curious to see what happens at RB and the WR position. I'm thinking Pace feels/hopes Robinson/Gabriel/Miller are the future. Wims can work his way up slowly and maybe take Robinson's job in a few years.

Howard comes out of contract after the 2019 season and if his price is high I just don't know how we can afford to keep him.

I don't have a bad thing to say about Jordan Howard. In fact he's my favorite Bears RB in my lifetime other than obviously Walter Payton. I would MUCH rather keep him than see him go to another team. That being said, this isn't an offense that needs a $10M / year RB to be successful.

You never know with cap inflation and what the marketplace dictates, but if we're expecting to be in a franchise tag type money situation I would much rather use the 2nd rounder from the Raiders to draft Howard's replacement.

We need the money to extend Biscuit and give the right side of the OL a serious look. The right side of the OL is my biggest concern. Hopefully the draft fixes that, but if we can get a stud RT in FA I'd rather have that and draft Howard's replacement than the other way around.

[G08]

Might be too early to extend Biscuit, but I'm curious to see what happens at RB and the WR position. I'm thinking Pace feels/hopes Robinson/Gabriel/Miller are the future. Wims can work his way up slowly and maybe take Robinson's job in a few years.

Howard comes out of contract after the 2019 season and if his price is high I just don't know how we can afford to keep him.

I don't have a bad thing to say about Jordan Howard. In fact he's my favorite Bears RB in my lifetime other than obviously Walter Payton. I would MUCH rather keep him than see him go to another team. That being said, this isn't an offense that needs a $10M / year RB to be successful.

You never know with cap inflation and what the marketplace dictates, but if we're expecting to be in a franchise tag type money situation I would much rather use the 2nd rounder from the Raiders to draft Howard's replacement.

We need the money to extend Biscuit and give the right side of the OL a serious look. The right side of the OL is my biggest concern. Hopefully the draft fixes that, but if we can get a stud RT in FA I'd rather have that and draft Howard's replacement than the other way around.

More than Forte?

Nagy comes from the Andy Reid tree, and his famously once said to give him the following to build a team, and he'll figure out the rest:

1 QB
2 Tackles
2 Pass rushers
2 Corners

[wab]

The right side of the OL is my biggest concern. Hopefully the draft fixes that, but if we can get a stud RT in FA I'd rather have that and draft Howard's replacement than the other way around.

They must see something in Coward to keep him on the 53. It would not surprise me in the least to see him take over for Massie next year.

I do agree that they need to get someone in the hopper to replace Long in the next couple of years. I just don't think he is ever really going to be healthy again.

[The Marshall Plan]

Might be too early to extend Biscuit, but I'm curious to see what happens at RB and the WR position. I'm thinking Pace feels/hopes Robinson/Gabriel/Miller are the future. Wims can work his way up slowly and maybe take Robinson's job in a few years.

Howard comes out of contract after the 2019 season and if his price is high I just don't know how we can afford to keep him.

I don't have a bad thing to say about Jordan Howard. In fact he's my favorite Bears RB in my lifetime other than obviously Walter Payton. I would MUCH rather keep him than see him go to another team. That being said, this isn't an offense that needs a $10M / year RB to be successful.

You never know with cap inflation and what the marketplace dictates, but if we're expecting to be in a franchise tag type money situation I would much rather use the 2nd rounder from the Raiders to draft Howard's replacement.

We need the money to extend Biscuit and give the right side of the OL a serious look. The right side of the OL is my biggest concern. Hopefully the draft fixes that, but if we can get a stud RT in FA I'd rather have that and draft Howard's replacement than the other way around.

More than Forte?

Nagy comes from the Andy Reid tree, and his famously once said to give him the following to build a team, and he'll figure out the rest:

1 QB
2 Tackles
2 Pass rushers
2 Corners

I like Jordan Howard a lot more than Matt Forte. I didn't like Forte's game and felt that his stats benefited from him getting so many touches. Anecdotally, I don't remember Forte breaking many tackles and having runaway speed. Forte was good at being slippery, but from what I remember when he got hit he went down. I like Howard's game a lot better.

[The Marshall Plan]

The right side of the OL is my biggest concern. Hopefully the draft fixes that, but if we can get a stud RT in FA I'd rather have that and draft Howard's replacement than the other way around.

They must see something in Coward to keep him on the 53. It would not surprise me in the least to see him take over for Massie next year.

I do agree that they need to get someone in the hopper to replace Long in the next couple of years. I just don't think he is ever really going to be healthy again.

Agreed about Coward although I hope that's not their plan. This offense with a dominant offensive line is unstoppable. I'd rather have elite RB money spent on the line.

Long is almost 30 and like you said has been repeatedly injured.

Looking at player salaries, James in Miami at RT is the highest paid at $9.3M for the cap hit. After that it's almost $8M and more in the $7M range.

If Howard is going to be $10M / year, based on franchise tag money, I'd rather get a highly rated RT at $8M, draft the replacement, and put the $2M someplace else. Massie is at $6M. We could upgrade that spot for an incremental $2M to our cap.

So then we trade Howard before his FA season: $10M "savings"
Second round pick to replace Howard: $2M(?)
Net Change: +$8M

Upgrade Massie: $6M cap savings by getting rid of him
Sign an elite level RT (I don't know if any will be available next offseason): $8M
Net Change: -$2M

Total Change: +$6M

We're ahead by $6M. Then we need to discuss Long. His hit is $8.8M and he gets injured. We can just use his cap slot to sign a replacement and most likely come out ahead.

The total savings then can pay Amos, extend Biscuit, etc. etc. and we've rebuilt the line and drafted Howard's replacement.

Works for me.

One thing I think about with the right side of the line is that we line Mack up there. What if the other team has a similar guy? I don't like that scenario at all. The right side of the line kinda scares the shit out of me.

[EricTighe]

The right side of the OL is my biggest concern. Hopefully the draft fixes that, but if we can get a stud RT in FA I'd rather have that and draft Howard's replacement than the other way around.

One thing I think about with the right side of the line is that we line Mack up there. What if the other team has a similar guy? I don't like that scenario at all. The right side of the line kinda scares the shit out of me.

They don't have a guy like Mack, so no need to worry.

I have been preaching to shit can Massie for a bit but he is actually doing just fine.

[malk]

This resigning discussion is why I only have Pace as a B. He's had a lot of time to build us into a contender but has wasted a lot of cap space getting us here. This means our window might end up being smaller than it could/should be. As soon as we're paying non rookie contract QB money it'll become a lot more difficult to keep a high quality roster together.

Now Pace's drafting is pretty damn good so as long as that keeps up we've got an advantage but he won't be able to get away with any more mid-tier, low upside signings.

[Bears Whiskey Nut]

It’s the Patriots/Saints/Packers model. Three teams that have been good for a long time. Good GM, good HC, good QB, and have an above average defense year in and year out. Then just plug and play players as needed. If the QB is in the same scheme long enough, and the GM knows the types of players that fit the scheme, they can all work in combination to keep the team competitive.


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[malk]

It’s the Patriots/Saints/Packers model. Three teams that have been good for a long time. Good GM, good HC, good QB, and have an above average defense year in and year out. Then just plug and play players as needed. If the QB is in the same scheme long enough, and the GM knows the types of players that fit the scheme, they can all work in combination to keep the team competitive.


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It's the Packers/Saints model, not the Patriots one. Brady has been constantly willing to restructure to help the team (aided by the Patriots being clever in the uncapped 2010).

We really, really, need to set out sights higher than the damn Saints and Packers. Just because we've been shit for a while doesn't mean we should set out sights (for the GM) on being a bit better than average. We're going to look back at the careers of Brees and Rodgers and wonder how these two HoF, all time great QBs only got a ring each. The Packers have ridden their potential GOAT QB to a lot of winning seasons but only one appearance at the big game, which of course they won. Brees isn't as good as Rodgers so the Saints normally finish 7-9 with him throwing for gaudy numbers.

Can we dare to dream a little bigger?

[Bears Whiskey Nut]

It’s the Patriots/Saints/Packers model. Three teams that have been good for a long time. Good GM, good HC, good QB, and have an above average defense year in and year out. Then just plug and play players as needed. If the QB is in the same scheme long enough, and the GM knows the types of players that fit the scheme, they can all work in combination to keep the team competitive.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It's the Packers/Saints model, not the Patriots one. Brady has been constantly willing to restructure to help the team (aided by the Patriots being clever in the uncapped 2010).

We really, really, need to set out sights higher than the damn Saints and Packers. Just because we've been shit for a while doesn't mean we should set out sights (for the GM) on being a bit better than average. We're going to look back at the careers of Brees and Rodgers and wonder how these two HoF, all time great QBs only got a ring each. The Packers have ridden their potential GOAT QB to a lot of winning seasons but only one appearance at the big game, which of course they won. Brees isn't as good as Rodgers so the Saints normally finish 7-9 with him throwing for gaudy numbers.

Can we dare to dream a little bigger?

Yes, absolutely we should shoot higher. But the fact of the matter is, successful teams have consistency at the GM/HC/QB positions. The QB knows the scheme, the HC/OC calls plays that the QB executes well in the scheme, and the GM finds players that fit well within the scheme. Then if someone like Gabriel leaves for more money, the GM knows the type of player he is looking for. The QB and HC can assimilate players faster because they both know the scheme, and get the new players in positions to succeed faster. I only mentioned 'average defense' because that is what THEY (GB/NO) have had over the last several years. I expect that the Bears will do better than that, on that side of the ball.

The fact is, I believe we have finally hit on all three positions. It's up to ownership to allow them to develop, go through their bumps and bruises, and come out on the other side a successful football team. I think Pace has done a GREAT job, all things considered. I hope that the McCaskey's keep him around for awhile.

[crueltyabc]

Now that I've seen some good play from our free agent WRs (and Anthony Miller) I'm officially on board. I was starting to worry that the WR position was going to be what holds us back but I think we're good. The rebuild took a year longer than I'd hoped, but I'm comfortable with where this team is in 2018. I believe Pace can restock as needed, so I think we can be perennial playoff contenders for as long as we have Mitch and Mack.

[Bearfacts]

I'd call his work to date slightly above average as far as personnel decisions go. While he's come up with some finds from round two through five in the draft and found some good UDFAs overall his failure to draft well in round one has hurt us and his moves in free agency are at best a neutral.

This years crop of UFAs have flashed some talent but no one is playing at Pro Bowl levels save Mack who was acquired in a costly trade because Pace has failed to draft or sign consistently effective pass rushers. No doubt he's improved the roster but to what level? I still see a middle of the road team.

[Bears Whiskey Nut]

I'd call his work to date slightly above average as far as personnel decisions go. While he's come up with some finds from round two through five in the draft and found some good UDFAs overall his failure to draft well in round one has hurt us and his moves in free agency are at best a neutral.

This years crop of UFAs have flashed some talent but no one is playing at Pro Bowl levels save Mack who was acquired in a costly trade because Pace has failed to draft or sign consistently effective pass rushers. No doubt he's improved the roster but to what level? I still see a middle of the road team.

I don't know. Roquan Smith and Mitch Trubisky are doing pretty darn well. Floyd was highly rated by scouts, but known to be a very raw, athletic freak. He's not working out right now, but that's not to say he never will. I would say that his FA's this year have been really good, and you can't judge his FA signings during the Fox era, because they were short term, mid-level players, in order to fill holes and manage the cap during a rebuild.

If your bar for a UFA is the Pro Bowl. You will always be disappointed. Not every free agent that hits the open market is going to be a Pro Bowl level player. If you do sign one, in their prime, they are going to cost you Mack money.

[wab]

I'd call his work to date slightly above average as far as personnel decisions go. While he's come up with some finds from round two through five in the draft and found some good UDFAs overall his failure to draft well in round one has hurt us and his moves in free agency are at best a neutral.

This years crop of UFAs have flashed some talent but no one is playing at Pro Bowl levels save Mack who was acquired in a costly trade because Pace has failed to draft or sign consistently effective pass rushers. No doubt he's improved the roster but to what level? I still see a middle of the road team.

I don't know. Roquan Smith and Mitch Trubisky are doing pretty darn well. Floyd was highly rated by scouts, but known to be a very raw, athletic freak. He's not working out right now, but that's not to say he never will. I would say that his FA's this year have been really good, and you can't judge his FA signings during the Fox era, because they were short term, mid-level players, in order to fill holes and manage the cap during a rebuild.

If your bar for a UFA is the Pro Bowl. You will always be disappointed. Not every free agent that hits the open market is going to be a Pro Bowl level player. If you do sign one, in their prime, they are going to cost you Mack money.

Exactly.

The "Madden Mentality" that a lot of sports fans have tends to give them unrealistic expectations.

[BR0D1E86]

I'd call his work to date slightly above average as far as personnel decisions go. While he's come up with some finds from round two through five in the draft and found some good UDFAs overall his failure to draft well in round one has hurt us and his moves in free agency are at best a neutral.

This years crop of UFAs have flashed some talent but no one is playing at Pro Bowl levels save Mack who was acquired in a costly trade because Pace has failed to draft or sign consistently effective pass rushers. No doubt he's improved the roster but to what level? I still see a middle of the road team.

This is the first year where his off-season wasn’t pretty obviously focused on the draft and then treading water/biding time in free agency. He always knew it was going to take a while and he acted like it. I don’t put much stock in anything he did in free agency before this last off-season.

White is almost a weird pass for me. That draft was right after he got hired, and who knows what he would have been if not for a series of freak injuries nobody could have foreseen. I still didn’t love the pick, but it’s not all that damning for me either.

Floyd has been disappointing, but certainly not an outright bust.

Other than that, he’s had some pretty damn good picks.

I’m very pleased with what he’s done. This roster is light years different than the muck pile of old, overpaid garbage he took over.

[G08]

I'd call his work to date slightly above average as far as personnel decisions go. While he's come up with some finds from round two through five in the draft and found some good UDFAs overall his failure to draft well in round one has hurt us and his moves in free agency are at best a neutral.

This years crop of UFAs have flashed some talent but no one is playing at Pro Bowl levels save Mack who was acquired in a costly trade because Pace has failed to draft or sign consistently effective pass rushers. No doubt he's improved the roster but to what level? I still see a middle of the road team.

Compared to what this team was when he took over? I think he's done an outstanding job.

[LacertineForest]

I didn't think much of the Taylor Gabriel signing at the time, but he's been a really nice, underrated addition to the team. Dude had a great block on the Cohen TD yesterday, and he's caught some difficult balls throughout the year.

Other than the Parkey signing, I can't really complain about any of his offseason moves this year. Previous years - yeah, there was some garbage in there, but considering recent Bears history (most of my time on this Earth, really), I'm pretty optimistic about the future.

[Pagan]

Fans can have whatever opinions that they like, but it's not even close. Its a no brainer.

If you don't Really like/love the job Pace has done since taking the job.. then you either don't understand the job description or simply have an axe to grind.

Nothing wrong with having high standards, and or using a critical eye... but I'm sure I'm not alone in saying that I have both & understood his moves early (years 1 & 2) and absolutely Love the results of the Bears GM so far.

[Bears Whiskey Nut]

Let's just say, he's the best GM the Bears have had in 20 years. Maybe more.

[EricTighe]

Right now to say better then Angelo who got us the talent to get us to the SuperBowl is a bit of a reach. They seem to be both very good in the later rounds.

He is doing a great job though. 5-3 and considered by many as a top 10 team. Hard to complain about his job now.

[BR0D1E86]

Right now to say better then Angelo who got us the talent to get us to the SuperBowl is a bit of a reach. They seem to be both very good in the later rounds.

He is doing a great job though. 5-3 and considered by many as a top 10 team. Hard to complain about his job now.

Yeah, considering what he took over you can make an argument for Pace being the best. But you’ve got to give Angelo props for that Lovie run that resulted in a super bowl appearance. He probably still gets the nod, but I’d bet Pace continues building his team and is unquestionably the best pretty soon.

[Bears Whiskey Nut]

Right now to say better then Angelo who got us the talent to get us to the SuperBowl is a bit of a reach. They seem to be both very good in the later rounds.

He is doing a great job though. 5-3 and considered by many as a top 10 team. Hard to complain about his job now.

Yeah, considering what he took over you can make an argument for Pace being the best. But you’ve got to give Angelo props for that Lovie run that resulted in a super bowl appearance. He probably still gets the nod, but I’d bet Pace continues building his team and is unquestionably the best pretty soon.

I will argue this all day long. It was ironic actually. How good Angelo was at selecting and evaluating defensive players, and how colossally bad he was at offense. The guy could not evaluate and trade for/draft offensive players. Like at all.

I would say that Pace has done well on both sides of the ball. As good as Angelo on defense, and MUCH better on Offense. So at this point I would take Pace over Angelo.

[The Marshall Plan]

Right now to say better then Angelo who got us the talent to get us to the SuperBowl is a bit of a reach. They seem to be both very good in the later rounds.

He is doing a great job though. 5-3 and considered by many as a top 10 team. Hard to complain about his job now.

Yeah, considering what he took over you can make an argument for Pace being the best. But you’ve got to give Angelo props for that Lovie run that resulted in a super bowl appearance. He probably still gets the nod, but I’d bet Pace continues building his team and is unquestionably the best pretty soon.

I will argue this all day long. It was ironic actually. How good Angelo was at selecting and evaluating defensive players, and how colossally bad he was at offense. The guy could not evaluate and trade for/draft offensive players. Like at all.

I would say that Pace has done well on both sides of the ball. As good as Angelo on defense, and MUCH better on Offense. So at this point I would take Pace over Angelo.

It's a tie right now for me.

Angelo was saddled with Jauron, then hired Lovie. Pace was saddled with Fox, then hired Nagy.
Both made blockbuster trades for a QB. I would argue that Pace made a better deal for his which is not a slight against Jay Cutler who I really liked.
Both built top tier defenses.
Both made transformative coaching hires.
Both have not really drafted well in the first round.
Both have made some great picks in later rounds.
Angelo's team went to the Super Bowl and could've won that game.
Pace made the trade for Mack.

You could say Angelo because of the Super Bowl appearance, but Angelo inherited a better team and had to do less of an overhaul. Pace gutted this team and rebuilt it from the ground up.

I really like them both. I can't choose.

[Bears Whiskey Nut]

Right now to say better then Angelo who got us the talent to get us to the SuperBowl is a bit of a reach. They seem to be both very good in the later rounds.

He is doing a great job though. 5-3 and considered by many as a top 10 team. Hard to complain about his job now.

Yeah, considering what he took over you can make an argument for Pace being the best. But you’ve got to give Angelo props for that Lovie run that resulted in a super bowl appearance. He probably still gets the nod, but I’d bet Pace continues building his team and is unquestionably the best pretty soon.

I will argue this all day long. It was ironic actually. How good Angelo was at selecting and evaluating defensive players, and how colossally bad he was at offense. The guy could not evaluate and trade for/draft offensive players. Like at all.

I would say that Pace has done well on both sides of the ball. As good as Angelo on defense, and MUCH better on Offense. So at this point I would take Pace over Angelo.

It's a tie right now for me.

Angelo was saddled with Jauron, then hired Lovie. Pace was saddled with Fox, then hired Nagy.
Both made blockbuster trades for a QB. I would argue that Pace made a better deal for his which is not a slight against Jay Cutler who I really liked.
Both built top tier defenses.
Both made transformative coaching hires.
Both have not really drafted well in the first round.
Both have made some great picks in later rounds.
Angelo's team went to the Super Bowl and could've won that game.
Pace made the trade for Mack.

You could say Angelo because of the Super Bowl appearance, but Angelo inherited a better team and had to do less of an overhaul. Pace gutted this team and rebuilt it from the ground up.

I really like them both. I can't choose.

The year the Bears went to the Super Bowl, they did so on the back of their defense. Their offense was mediocre at best.