wab wrote:I still maintain that Cohen getting the majority of the snaps is situational and match up based, but my eyes are telling me that Howard just doesn't look comfortable in this offense.
I'm a broken record in stating that Howard has been running behind a zone blocking system since college. We just switched to a power scheme and I swear to God he is running INTO contact. It's maddening.
We switched to power? Maybe I'm ignorant, but I don't know where this is coming from. We just drafted Daniels, who is clearly a move guy more suited to zone blocking than power. This is the first I've heard of being a "power" blocking scheme.
Listen closer!
Yeah we scrapped the ZBS in favor of a power scheme. I don't like it thus far.
I don't remember hearing/reading about it either. They sure do a whole lot of pulling and trapping for a power scheme. They also don't have offensive running formations that are consistent with a pure power run scheme. Based on what I've seen, it's maybe not the inside zone that the Bears ran under Fox, but it looks a heck of a lot like a stretch zone scheme.
It's also hard to run a Zone-Read offense without the zone blocking part of it.
You still pull quite a bit in a power/man blocking scheme. What I am not seeing is what we observed in the past with the linemen stepping in unison playside on those stretch zone plays where Howard can press the edge, read the linebackers and then make his cut. I'm seeing a lot of 'power O' where, as you mentioned, you see the guard pulling. Every NFL team runs inside/outside zone so those plays have been sprinkled in at times.
I'll dig for the quote but Nagy has mentioned we are running more of a power run scheme "just like they did in Kansas City".
“You have to run the football in this league; you have to be able to run the football,” Nagy said. “So everyone knows what (my teams) have done in the past and what we’re going do with some of the (run-pass option) things. But you’ve got to be able to get in the trenches, too, and line up and say, ‘You know what? They know that we’re going to run the football. How do we get yards?’”
The answer will form on the fields in Bourbonnais this summer. Already, there are clues. Turn on game video of the 2017 Chiefs and find plenty.Power blocking. Pulling guards. This isn’t the sideline-to-sideline outside zone blocking scheme the Bears ran the last three seasons. Yes, the Chiefs incorporated that into their repertoire with Andy Reid as coach and Nagy as coordinator, but they ran more inside zone and more power than the Bears have.
Nagy, of course, has brought Reid’s philosophies with him to Chicago.
“Schematically, it’s great,” Bears center Cody Whitehair said. “The thing you’re going to see a lot more of is physicality up front. More downhill blocks. And just guys that are not going to beat themselves. We’re going to come off the ball and really maul guys.”
That 3rd and 4 play at the end sure looked like good old fashioned G-Power but the dolphins blew it up so bad I could be wrong. I agree with y'all that Howard isn't consistently running well but it also seems like his package is not blocked very well. His best game this year was against the Packers and I feel like he earned every single yard he got in that game. He hasn't been able to find that magic again and the line hasn't gotten better at helping him. It's left me wondering why our guys aren't getting more push, especially on the right side.
“You have to run the football in this league; you have to be able to run the football,” Nagy said. “So everyone knows what (my teams) have done in the past and what we’re going do with some of the (run-pass option) things. But you’ve got to be able to get in the trenches, too, and line up and say, ‘You know what? They know that we’re going to run the football. How do we get yards?’”
The answer will form on the fields in Bourbonnais this summer. Already, there are clues. Turn on game video of the 2017 Chiefs and find plenty.Power blocking. Pulling guards. This isn’t the sideline-to-sideline outside zone blocking scheme the Bears ran the last three seasons. Yes, the Chiefs incorporated that into their repertoire with Andy Reid as coach and Nagy as coordinator, but they ran more inside zone and more power than the Bears have.
Nagy, of course, has brought Reid’s philosophies with him to Chicago.
“Schematically, it’s great,” Bears center Cody Whitehair said. “The thing you’re going to see a lot more of is physicality up front. More downhill blocks. And just guys that are not going to beat themselves. We’re going to come off the ball and really maul guys.”
I took that quote to mean they would be running more of a power scheme than what Helfrich was running at Oregon. I still see a lot more zone concepts than power concepts in this offense. It's probably a case of semantics honestly.
Still... the main issue I'm seeing regardless is that the zone scheme (no matter if it's inside or outside/stretch) is that the defense is covering the OL on running plays to counteract the zone. If the OL is "covered" there's no zone to create. Cohen can beat this because of his speed and cutback ability, but Howard can't. It's also a reason (in my opinion) that we've been seeing more of Cohen.
So I think we're describing the same thing: the oline and scheme are failing to create easy opportunities for the RBs. The RBs have had mixed success in overcoming this lack of good running lanes. So what's up with our great oline and great oline coach? Trubisky scrambles and Cohen's quickness look like they're masking a problem and our #8 rushing attack is not good
crueltyabc wrote:So I think we're describing the same thing: the oline and scheme are failing to create easy opportunities for the RBs. The RBs have had mixed success in overcoming this lack of good running lanes. So what's up with our great oline and great oline coach? Trubisky scrambles and Cohen's quickness look like they're masking a problem and our #8 rushing attack is not good
I think it's just a matter of playing together and getting more comfortable with that aspect of the offense. I don't put it completely on the scheme/line. Howard sometimes doesn't look like he trusts what he's seeing, and then bam... the running lane is gone. When he hits the hole with decisiveness, he excels. Cohen is a bit of a different animal...he makes a lot out of nothing. He also makes nothing out of something...
No different than Trubisky learning to get comfortable in the offense.
It's also a credit to opposing defenses. They know the Bears are going to run a zone based scheme and to date, their biggest threat on offense has been Howard. So they cover the OL and take away the zone run, forcing #10 to beat them through the air. Now that he's beginning to do it, you may see the running game open up a bit.
“You have to run the football in this league; you have to be able to run the football,” Nagy said. “So everyone knows what (my teams) have done in the past and what we’re going do with some of the (run-pass option) things. But you’ve got to be able to get in the trenches, too, and line up and say, ‘You know what? They know that we’re going to run the football. How do we get yards?’”
The answer will form on the fields in Bourbonnais this summer. Already, there are clues. Turn on game video of the 2017 Chiefs and find plenty.Power blocking. Pulling guards. This isn’t the sideline-to-sideline outside zone blocking scheme the Bears ran the last three seasons. Yes, the Chiefs incorporated that into their repertoire with Andy Reid as coach and Nagy as coordinator, but they ran more inside zone and more power than the Bears have.
Nagy, of course, has brought Reid’s philosophies with him to Chicago.
“Schematically, it’s great,” Bears center Cody Whitehair said. “The thing you’re going to see a lot more of is physicality up front. More downhill blocks. And just guys that are not going to beat themselves. We’re going to come off the ball and really maul guys.”
I took that quote to mean they would be running more of a power scheme than what Helfrich was running at Oregon. I still see a lot more zone concepts than power concepts in this offense. It's probably a case of semantics honestly.
Still... the main issue I'm seeing regardless is that the zone scheme (no matter if it's inside or outside/stretch) is that the defense is covering the OL on running plays to counteract the zone. If the OL is "covered" there's no zone to create. Cohen can beat this because of his speed and cutback ability, but Howard can't. It's also a reason (in my opinion) that we've been seeing more of Cohen.
To me it looks night and day different for how he is allowing the play to develop and his decisiveness in hitting the hole. I almost feel like he's telling himself to not be patient anymore and if he sees a hole to ram it up in there. Problem is that hole is closing a lot faster than the cutback lanes he's accustomed to in traditional zone based run schemes. It just seems like a poor fit. Maybe he'll adjust or we'll adjust, I just hate that now that we've found a way to air the ball out our ground game goes to shit. Fucking irritating.
“You have to run the football in this league; you have to be able to run the football,” Nagy said. “So everyone knows what (my teams) have done in the past and what we’re going do with some of the (run-pass option) things. But you’ve got to be able to get in the trenches, too, and line up and say, ‘You know what? They know that we’re going to run the football. How do we get yards?’”
The answer will form on the fields in Bourbonnais this summer. Already, there are clues. Turn on game video of the 2017 Chiefs and find plenty.Power blocking. Pulling guards. This isn’t the sideline-to-sideline outside zone blocking scheme the Bears ran the last three seasons. Yes, the Chiefs incorporated that into their repertoire with Andy Reid as coach and Nagy as coordinator, but they ran more inside zone and more power than the Bears have.
Nagy, of course, has brought Reid’s philosophies with him to Chicago.
“Schematically, it’s great,” Bears center Cody Whitehair said. “The thing you’re going to see a lot more of is physicality up front. More downhill blocks. And just guys that are not going to beat themselves. We’re going to come off the ball and really maul guys.”
I took that quote to mean they would be running more of a power scheme than what Helfrich was running at Oregon. I still see a lot more zone concepts than power concepts in this offense. It's probably a case of semantics honestly.
Still... the main issue I'm seeing regardless is that the zone scheme (no matter if it's inside or outside/stretch) is that the defense is covering the OL on running plays to counteract the zone. If the OL is "covered" there's no zone to create. Cohen can beat this because of his speed and cutback ability, but Howard can't. It's also a reason (in my opinion) that we've been seeing more of Cohen.
To me it looks night and day different for how he is allowing the play to develop and his decisiveness in hitting the hole. I almost feel like he's telling himself to not be patient anymore and if he sees a hole to ram it up in there. Problem is that hole is closing a lot faster than the cutback lanes he's accustomed to in traditional zone based run schemes. It just seems like a poor fit. Maybe he'll adjust or we'll adjust, I just hate that now that we've found a way to air the ball out our ground game goes to shit. Fucking irritating.
This has been brought up ad nauseum. Jordan Howard is a rhythm runner. You have to give him the rock 20-25 times in a game for him to do well. He's got to get into a groove running the ball. Throwing him in 6-7 times a half is not going to do it. I loved seeing him break those two long runs toward the end of OT. I would have kept running that play until Miami proved they could stop it.
Another thing I will say about running the ball. There is something to be said for taking what the defense gives you. Watching that game, the Dolphins seemed like they never had more than 6-7 guys in the box. I would have been running the ball all day long, until they committed that 8th player, then I would have run PA off of that. Maybe I'm just too simplistic. But at some point you need to force the defense's hand.
The Bears are 5 real games into new system..many new pieces.. I haven't had this much hope in YEARS.. If/WHEN these parts..all mesh..we got us a TEAM..
Rich Campbell wrote:Also, Howard thrived the last two seasons on outside-zone runs, which aren’t featured nearly as much in Nagy’s scheme, which relies mostly on inside zone and power.
Matt Nagy said when he was hired--to much general approval, including mine--that his job was to create a scheme to maximize the talents of the players he has. But there's no doubt whatsoever that he's getting less out of Jordan Howard in total production as well as yards per rush than John Fox/Dowell Loggains did. Now it can be countered that the total offensive production is greater in the way it's working now, so the ends justify the means. But it's hard to imagine that there shouldn't be a way with the more recent threat of our passing game that we can't get 4+ yards per rush out of Jordan Howard somehow.
Mikefive's theory: The only time you KNOW that a sports team player, coach or management member is being 100% honest is when they're NOT reciting "the company line".
Jordan IMO looks slow this year. He also doesn't seem to be seeing the cutbacks that he has in years past. I'm not sure if it's because his carries are down this year so he's overthinking to try and get the most out of his carries or not.
With the trade deadline approaching, every time I open up my sport feeds I’m literally anticipating reading the headline Howard has been traded for a 3rd. Nagy loves him some flash, Howard is just not that guy, even if that guy has proved he can get you 4.6 YPC.
“Protect this fucking house, go all out, leave that shit out on the field, let’s have some fun, makes some plays baby ” Mitch Trubisky #believethesleeve
He's not seeing the holes as well because they aren't there. Helfrich during his presser yesterday said that we're close, but sometimes the center will block the wrong way and Howard is left going against 3 defenders with 2 blockers. Simple math.
Other times, to me it looks like Howard is running too upright. This power scheme is great, but you better fucking win at the LOS or you are toast. From what I've seen... we aren't winning up front more than we are losing.
Funkster wrote:With the trade deadline approaching, every time I open up my sport feeds I’m literally anticipating reading the headline Howard has been traded for a 3rd. Nagy loves him some flash, Howard is just not that guy, even if that guy has proved he can get you 4.6 YPC.
I don’t see any reason to trade him for a 3rd right now. I’m fairly certain a 3rd will be available in the off-season too. If somebody wants to send a 2nd though (they won’t), I’d make the deal. They’re not going to pay him when the contract is up, so may as well cut the cord if the price is good enough.
Funkster wrote:With the trade deadline approaching, every time I open up my sport feeds I’m literally anticipating reading the headline Howard has been traded for a 3rd. Nagy loves him some flash, Howard is just not that guy, even if that guy has proved he can get you 4.6 YPC.
I don’t see any reason to trade him for a 3rd right now. I’m fairly certain a 3rd will be available in the off-season too. If somebody wants to send a 2nd though (they won’t), I’d make the deal. They’re not going to pay him when the contract is up, so may as well cut the cord if the price is good enough.
We're not going to trade him before the deadline simply because we don't have anyone to replace him with. Now that we're thinking playoffs we're not going to give up a quality starter for a second or third round pick.
Funkster wrote:With the trade deadline approaching, every time I open up my sport feeds I’m literally anticipating reading the headline Howard has been traded for a 3rd. Nagy loves him some flash, Howard is just not that guy, even if that guy has proved he can get you 4.6 YPC.
I don’t see any reason to trade him for a 3rd right now. I’m fairly certain a 3rd will be available in the off-season too. If somebody wants to send a 2nd though (they won’t), I’d make the deal. They’re not going to pay him when the contract is up, so may as well cut the cord if the price is good enough.
We're not going to trade him before the deadline simply because we don't have anyone to replace him with. Now that we're thinking playoffs we're not going to give up a quality starter for a second or third round pick.
Exactly.
Mikefive's theory: The only time you KNOW that a sports team player, coach or management member is being 100% honest is when they're NOT reciting "the company line".
UOK wrote:The Bears offense is no longer as obvious as "Cohen's out there in passing plays, Howard for run plays."
Howard on the field: run 54% of the time
Cohen on the field: run 33% of the time
Howard off the field: run 24% of the time
Cohen off the field: run 53% of the time
This is why I am thinking Howard is going to have his best day under Matt Nagy. With all of Cohen's success last week, the Bears are going to run a lot of misdirection off of Cohen. I would expect to see two back sets, and some draw plays to Howard, and motioning Cohen out of the backfield to the strong side, and then running Howard to the weak side.
I'm going to disagree here. The effect of a pounding running game with a bigger back like Howard is to wear down the front 7 and exploit them once they get tired. We don't pound the ball enough to wear Defenses out in the run game and it seems to me that Howard's 3.1 yard average is a reflection of that. At least so far.
I think it's more a function of moving away from a zone blocking scheme to a power blocking scheme.
And I agree with you. Howard runs with power but he's not an ideal power back and this change in scheme hasn't been kind to him or to Cohen both of who would benefit more from the former scheme. IMHO changing up was a huge mistake and it shows in each and every game.
What I've noticed is a lack of burst and a hesitancy from him. His strengths are in his vision and his ability to read the blocks, find his lane, make his cut and accelerate through it and the arm tackles he'd been up against in the past. Now he typically has to hit a certain gap and we aren't run blocking well enough to create daylight for him or Cohen.
If there's one thing about Nagy's offense I disagree with it's this. Both his OL and his RBs function best running a pure zone scheme. This should never have been changed and I hope they realize this and fix it.
