So what's wrong and how do we fix the running game?

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wab
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Re: So what's wrong and how do we fix the running game?

Wed Nov 28, 2018 2:47 pm

G08 wrote:dan durkin

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Three factors stand out to me as the biggest culprits for the #Bears’ run-game struggles. Two can’t be fixed this year — but does it really matter? Film Study:

Uh... UOK? I know what I want for Christmas :D
WHAT ARE THE FACTORS?
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Sugashane
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Re: So what's wrong and how do we fix the running game?

Wed Nov 28, 2018 4:42 pm

G08 wrote:
Sugashane wrote:I'm not sure why Nagy or HH isn't utilizing more zone looks, you do not need to be exclusive with them.
You don't have to be exclusive with the zone looks, true, but the 'bang for your buck' is much greater when you are. The key with zone blocking is that you make everything look the same to the defense whether it's a run or pass. Watch the Rams on offense, it's fucking beautiful. Ditto the old-school (ugh, I have to call the 90's Broncos old school now) Broncos with Elway and Davis.
Sugashane wrote: We don't have the same horsepower in the OL as we did when we had Kreutz and Co., but overall we are far more athletic now than we were then. Using Leno as an example, he has improved dramatically, but he isn't folding any DL or pushing them 5 yards deep. But he is mobile enough to stick to almost any DE for a few seconds to potentially open a lane or quick enough to crash down and hit a DT before he can burst through the gap. Why try to force a scheme that doesn't fit? The run game scheme preference doesn't have to cause issues with the passing game, if anything having a solid zone stretch play to rely on only increase RPO and playaction off that play.
There has to be a reason why Nagy and Heistand want to stick with this scheme. It's a different approach and technique for the players. I don't know enough about OL play/blocking scheme continuity and it's fit in an offense's run and pass, especially when considering tipping off plays pre-snap.

Nagy said he's going to use our mini-bye to find ways to make the run game work. I hope he's right!
I agree, personally I said a while before when it came out we were moving to a power scheme that I didn't care for our fit for it. Outside of Long and Whitehair I didn't think one person really could have benefited from the switch, and really I think they were better in that system too. I just assumed HH is not going to scrap it as that is his niche, so I'd take some more zone reads over none.

Same here, I am looking at it in a very current mindset. They may have long-term objectives that this scheme fits, or might have several prospects in FA and the draft (in the middle rounds) that they think will thrive in a power scheme. I can't speak for them, but I can say so far that the change has been unerwhelming. The passblocking for several guys looks better though, HH clearly has been helping in that regard. Leno has improved much more than I expected, Whitehair seems to have bounced back from a rough sophmore year, Long looked much better (though that may have been due to finally being healthy), Massie looked like he could hold his own in more than a quick WC passing attack for once, etc. I hope Coward is making big strides as well.
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Pagan
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Re: So what's wrong and how do we fix the running game?

Fri Nov 30, 2018 11:35 pm

I believe many of the points here are very close or right on the money.

I still feel like it ultimately boils down to 2 factors:

1) The running game may suffer for the betterment of the passing games success (& the health/ development of the franchise QB

2) The ypc may not come till late season or even next year... but creating short passing & QB runs are just as effective in running the clock.
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EricTighe
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Re: So what's wrong and how do we fix the running game?

Sun Dec 02, 2018 5:24 pm

I have one hell of a man crush on Jordan Howard.

This is not the team for him and I hope we trade him to a team that will use him( as long as it out of the NFC).

There is no fixing the run game. Nagy has shown he prefers to pass so we need to learn to deal with it. No matter how much he says he likes to run.

Trade Howard to allow him to be the player he should be. Love the guy but he does not fit Nagy's idea for an offense.
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Re: So what's wrong and how do we fix the running game?

Mon Dec 03, 2018 4:04 pm

EricTighe wrote:I have one hell of a man crush on Jordan Howard.

This is not the team for him and I hope we trade him to a team that will use him( as long as it out of the NFC).

There is no fixing the run game. Nagy has shown he prefers to pass so we need to learn to deal with it. No matter how much he says he likes to run.

Trade Howard to allow him to be the player he should be. Love the guy but he does not fit Nagy's idea for an offense.
I agree with everything except saying that "no matter how much he says... he doesn't like to call run plays.."

Nagy, who comes from the KC coaching line/system shows a very successful rushing game in this same system the past few years, at the least.

I'd say 1,400~1,900 yards & 12~15 TDs is loving them some run plays.

Let's keep in mind that this is still the very 1st year of this system & Nagy has been very forthright the entire way about where this team is vs where it will be in 3~5 years.

Again.. LOVE me some J. Howard also!
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Re: So what's wrong and how do we fix the running game?

Mon Dec 03, 2018 5:47 pm

For me it’s not that he doesn’t like calling run plays, it’s just that I simply feel he believes in the passing plays so much. He loves gaining huge chunks of yards quickly,

He quite obviously puts a lot of time, effort, care, love into play design and designing his play sheet. So much so that he is like that small child in the sweet shop who can’t wait to open the candy wrapper before he has even bought the candy.

You have to sell the run to open space up over the top In my book.
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Pagan
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Re: So what's wrong and how do we fix the running game?

Mon Dec 03, 2018 6:35 pm

Bearfanuk wrote:For me it’s not that he doesn’t like calling run plays, it’s just that I simply feel he believes in the passing plays so much. He loves gaining huge chunks of yards quickly,

He quite obviously puts a lot of time, effort, care, love into play design and designing his play sheet. So much so that he is like that small child in the sweet shop who can’t wait to open the candy wrapper before he has even bought the candy.

You have to sell the run to open space up over the top In my book.
I hear you.. that has def been the NFL standard on offense since, well.. the inception of offense.

Football offenses have absolutely evolved though & I'm happy to say that the Bears are now ACTUALLY 1 of the few teams leading the way.

Tailor creating an offense scheme based on single opponent match ups & doing the opposite of what your opponent expects.

This will often mean.. NOT using the run to set up the pass.

Not what we're used to, but it IS working. It's just not yet firing on all cylinders just yet.

My hope is that the running game clicks (very very soon) WITH Jordan Howard & BEFORE the Bears get to the post season.
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Re: So what's wrong and how do we fix the running game?

Mon Dec 03, 2018 7:14 pm

I find it interesting that this was a post in response to Nagy's play calling during the playoffs last year. Maybe we should have seen this coming??
RustyTrubisky wrote:
MoFugger wrote:
RustyTrubisky wrote:
IotaNet wrote:
Adipost wrote:It’s gonna be interesting to watch how Nagy’s offense does today.
Not particularly impressive. No Kelcie = no production.

yeahhhh, that took the shine off alittle bit.
you still have tyreek hill and kareem hunt, and alex smith is still having a career season and you lay an egg in the second half?

there were a few drops but, man i dunno.
Sure, but how many offensive plays did they run in the second half? Like 7?

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maybe nagy shouldnt have abandoned the run?
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G08
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Re: So what's wrong and how do we fix the running game?

Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:00 pm

I've commented about it in the past, he showed a tendency to abandon the run last year.
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Re: So what's wrong and how do we fix the running game?

Tue Dec 04, 2018 10:01 am

Bearfanuk wrote:For me it’s not that he doesn’t like calling run plays, it’s just that I simply feel he believes in the passing plays so much. He loves gaining huge chunks of yards quickly,

He quite obviously puts a lot of time, effort, care, love into play design and designing his play sheet. So much so that he is like that small child in the sweet shop who can’t wait to open the candy wrapper before he has even bought the candy.

You have to sell the run to open space up over the top In my book.
He defintely wants chunk/explosive plays. And Howard hasn't given him a reason to believe he can give him that consistantly througout the season.

I cannot imagine how he doesn't look to find a RB either in the draft or in FA that can do what he's looking for.
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Re: So what's wrong and how do we fix the running game?

Tue Dec 04, 2018 2:00 pm

I still believe it is more philosophy than anything else. Your coach needs to be committed to running the ball or not.

Nagy is not and as much as I am a fan of pounding a team into submission, I can not argue with his results. Just hate seeing Howard rot away.
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Re: So what's wrong and how do we fix the running game?

Tue Dec 04, 2018 7:40 pm

KhalilSackDaddy wrote:He defintely wants chunk/explosive plays. And Howard hasn't given him a reason to believe he can give him that consistantly througout the season.

I cannot imagine how he doesn't look to find a RB either in the draft or in FA that can do what he's looking for.
The problem is for all his talk of adapting to his players' strengths Nagy hasn't managed to do that for Howard.

We've seen what Howard is capable of as a runner when he finished 2nd and 6th in the league in rushing yards. The concerns were over his pass catching and perhaps to a much lesser extent his pass blocking. He's been excellent at both this year. When he's had to carry the ball he's been hit at or behind the line of scrimmage so often he's had no chance to gain much yardage. This shouldn't be the case when defenses are no longer able to stack 8 or 9 in the box. Howard just needs a seam and he'll hit it and regularly carry defenders for 6 yards or more. Nagy and his staff haven't been able to put him in a position to do that very often.

What I find frustrating and downright unfathomable is why when Nagy finally managed to get Howard going against the Giants he abandoned it.

Both TD drives in the first half showcased what Howard can do.

1st TD: 10 plays, 57 yards.
6 carries from Howard for 38 yards, including 5 in succession where he gained 3 yards, 2 yards, 22 yards (on 3rd and 5), 8 yards and 3 yards. The next play they faked to Howard from the 2 yard line and Shaheen was left wide open for an easy TD.

2nd TD: 9 plays 69 yards.
The drive started with a 25 yard run from Howard. He also had runs of 1 yard and 4 yards before Nagy tried one of his 'creative' plays, lined him up at QB and he was stopped for no gain. Hicks barrelled in on the next play.

That's two drives where Howard contributed 68 yards on 10 carries including two chunk/explosive plays. It demonstrates how much better he does when he stays on the field and gets into a rhythm.

In the second half he had 2 carries.

I just don't understand that. It's not like the Bears were trying to make up a large deficit (until the last minute or so). It's not like Daniel was having a great game. Nagy just stopped using the most effective weapon he had in the first half, the player who played the biggest role on both TD drives. If he's going to do that then what difference is bringing in another RB going to make?
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Re: So what's wrong and how do we fix the running game?

Wed Dec 05, 2018 9:15 am

HisRoyalSweetness wrote:
KhalilSackDaddy wrote:He defintely wants chunk/explosive plays. And Howard hasn't given him a reason to believe he can give him that consistantly througout the season.

I cannot imagine how he doesn't look to find a RB either in the draft or in FA that can do what he's looking for.
The problem is for all his talk of adapting to his players' strengths Nagy hasn't managed to do that for Howard.

We've seen what Howard is capable of as a runner when he finished 2nd and 6th in the league in rushing yards. The concerns were over his pass catching and perhaps to a much lesser extent his pass blocking. He's been excellent at both this year. When he's had to carry the ball he's been hit at or behind the line of scrimmage so often he's had no chance to gain much yardage. This shouldn't be the case when defenses are no longer able to stack 8 or 9 in the box. Howard just needs a seam and he'll hit it and regularly carry defenders for 6 yards or more. Nagy and his staff haven't been able to put him in a position to do that very often.

What I find frustrating and downright unfathomable is why when Nagy finally managed to get Howard going against the Giants he abandoned it.

Both TD drives in the first half showcased what Howard can do.

1st TD: 10 plays, 57 yards.
6 carries from Howard for 38 yards, including 5 in succession where he gained 3 yards, 2 yards, 22 yards (on 3rd and 5), 8 yards and 3 yards. The next play they faked to Howard from the 2 yard line and Shaheen was left wide open for an easy TD.

2nd TD: 9 plays 69 yards.
The drive started with a 25 yard run from Howard. He also had runs of 1 yard and 4 yards before Nagy tried one of his 'creative' plays, lined him up at QB and he was stopped for no gain. Hicks barrelled in on the next play.

That's two drives where Howard contributed 68 yards on 10 carries including two chunk/explosive plays. It demonstrates how much better he does when he stays on the field and gets into a rhythm.

In the second half he had 2 carries.

I just don't understand that. It's not like the Bears were trying to make up a large deficit (until the last minute or so). It's not like Daniel was having a great game. Nagy just stopped using the most effective weapon he had in the first half, the player who played the biggest role on both TD drives. If he's going to do that then what difference is bringing in another RB going to make?
Why did people think he would use players to their strenghts and not use them how they fit into his system? Name the HC's that adjust what they want to do to the strengths of the players? Not even Bill Bellechk does this. he goes after people, no matter how limited, that do what he needs them to do. It's a myth imo sounds good but it rarely if ever happens. Players are used in the system and they adapt/adjust or go to another team. The coach isn't going to change what he wants to do b/c 1 or a few players don't fit.

Howard is very limited in what he does well. He does those things REALLY well, but its limited. If the rest of the playcalls don't adhere to what he does then it's just sending giant tells to the def what is going on. Running zone coverage out of shotgun is what Howard does well; in stacked boxes. If the rest of the shotgun plays aren't zone blocking w/the rb running lateral to find the hole then the def is going to know what is happening.

If Nagy doesn't call TO and give all the momentum to NY, giving up 10 points in 2 drives(end of 2nd qtr, start of 3rd) then he likely stays w/the run.
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Re: So what's wrong and how do we fix the running game?

Sat Dec 22, 2018 10:32 am

Not sure I completely buy this well made video. There is something to be said for the logic here. Although, it did seem weird in the one example where he questioned the play design (Kush vs. Daniels 1-on-1), when the problem was a poor decision to call that play with such a bad matchup. What my eyes tell me is that we've had too many cases where Howard is hit at the line or in the backfield. Glad to see that it has improved of late. And while the lack of big gainers is certainly an issue to which non-stacked boxes will contribute, the tape should show Howard breaking thru and having the DBs gather him up after a few yards. I'm just not sure how much I'm seeing that. But with better run blocking at the POA, I'd be happy with Howard against 2 DBs 8 yards downfield several times a game.

Pretty good work here though and well worth the watch.
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Re: So what's wrong and how do we fix the running game?

Sat Dec 22, 2018 8:28 pm

Mikefive wrote:Not sure I completely buy this well made video. There is something to be said for the logic here. Although, it did seem weird in the one example where he questioned the play design (Kush vs. Daniels 1-on-1), when the problem was a poor decision to call that play with such a bad matchup. What my eyes tell me is that we've had too many cases where Howard is hit at the line or in the backfield. Glad to see that it has improved of late. And while the lack of big gainers is certainly an issue to which non-stacked boxes will contribute, the tape should show Howard breaking thru and having the DBs gather him up after a few yards. I'm just not sure how much I'm seeing that. But with better run blocking at the POA, I'd be happy with Howard against 2 DBs 8 yards downfield several times a game.

Pretty good work here though and well worth the watch.

Good find Mike. Interesting to note that without the 3 50 yard runs, his average this year is the same as last. That explains a lot.

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