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All of this almost makes me want to see a trade, just to show how terrible an idea it was. The core problem will remain Nagy's pass-happy A.D.D. You can put the second coming of Tony Dorsett back there, but if your coach can't find a clue to use his talents, they don't matter. Say what you want about speed (and #34 was never the fastest guys in the world), Howard is a grinder and there's something to be said about that when the flash and dash gets figured out. Philly proved that they had the Cohen matrix figured for most of the game and absent the late discovery of the double-move by Robinson, Nagy was without a strong alternative route. Also, the way Nagy likes to pass, you better have a back who can put a hat on a linebacker, when one breaks through the way Howard does consistently. Despite all the talk of physical attributes, the guy is a top-six running back in this league who beat out Jeremy Langford and Kadeem Carey, that Nagy routinely chucked aside to put Mizzell and Cunningham on the field. If that makes any kind of sense to anyone, I say trade the guy to some team that recognizes his value and abilities.

A well-written analysis of the point on Nagy and the running game: https://www.daily-chronicle.com/2018/12/04/hub-arkush-giants-didnt-stop-bears-run-game-nagy-did/amkeytg/

Dardango wrote:All of this almost makes me want to see a trade, just to show how terrible an idea it was. The core problem will remain Nagy's pass-happy A.D.D. You can put the second coming of Tony Dorsett back there, but if your coach can't find a clue to use his talents, they don't matter. Say what you want about speed (and #34 was never the fastest guys in the world), Howard is a grinder and there's something to be said about that when the flash and dash gets figured out. Philly proved that they had the Cohen matrix figured for most of the game and absent the late discovery of the double-move by Robinson, Nagy was without a strong alternative route. Also, the way Nagy likes to pass, you better have a back who can put a hat on a linebacker, when one breaks through the way Howard does consistently. Despite all the talk of physical attributes, the guy is a top-six running back in this league who beat out Jeremy Langford and Kadeem Carey, that Nagy routinely chucked aside to put Mizzell and Cunningham on the field. If that makes any kind of sense to anyone, I say trade the guy to some team that recognizes his value and abilities.

But, if that's the way they are going to use a back, why wouldn't you trade him if you needed picks? Just saying.

I love howard and I think he is vital. I just don't know if Nagy thinks that way and I also believe he would like a main back that is a little more fluid catching out of the backfield and explosive.

If Nagy committed to the run, I'd want to not only keep Howard, but also extend him now for 3-4 more years.

Nagy's use of RB's show his philosophy towards running in general. We know that Mizzell shouldn't touch the ball but he's in there when Howard or Cohen would be much better suited to the various plays that Mizzel sees action in. If Nagy truly wants a committee, then Howard is being wasted and will leave when he has the chance so I'd jump at the chance to get a pick in the 2-3 range for him this year.

The Marshall Plan wrote:I'm not trying to be negative on Jordan Howard because I do like him, but if he went to GB their offense would be easier to predict. If he's in the game, its a run and odds are he's not getting targeted on a pass.

Yeah, that's probably more realistic. I just feel like a pounder would open up the play action game for Erin and I really don't want to see that.

Keep him since there is no need to trade to him. Nagy just needs to learn how to be more committed to the running the ball with Howard. In other quit getting cute by bringing Mizzell in to try and confuse peeps. Let Howard run to the outside so peeps don't crash the box everytime he gets the damn ball.

Jason La Confora is reporting that Pace is actively shopping Howard at the combine

I trust pace. If he trades him and gets a replacement via draft pick like a 3rd or 4th I am fine with it.

Jason La Confora is literally the worst source for Bears related news.

I think Howard can still be an effective functioning piece of this offense even if his role changes from the traditional one he is used to ... and for that reason, I voted not to trade him

but if Nagy and Pace think otherwise, I of course would not argue that, and would expect them to get the most for him they could in a trade ... out of respect for Howard, it would be nice if he does leave to get sent to where he can flourish rather than just dumping him

He was only targeted 26x. He had 20 receptions, 76% catch rate. I remember a few passes not being the best (incompletions). He looked to have better hands. I think he could be used more in the passing game and he would not be so predictable. I think Nagy just needs to try to put him in different situations.

I know the team doesn't get off the bus running, but if they do not get as tough as an inside runner as Howard is, it will affect the team in certain situations.

It seems Nagy's offense and even Helfrich's Oregon offense was built on stretching the field laterally and confusing the defense. Nagy is looking to make the linebackers freeze, and he wants his running back to take advantage of that indecision by hitting holes fast.

It seems Howard as a slower zone cutback runner needs the linebackers to attack and over pursue opening cutback in order to get big gains.

If the above is correct then making Howard more effective is in conflict with making the offense the most effective? I'm still in favor of keeping Howard this season because I don't think there is actual value in trading him and his catching and pass blocking definitely has improved.

I would trade Howard for a third round pick simply because I think there will some RBs available then that would make good replacements for him, and he's going to be coming out of contract in another year anyway.

That said, if I were another team I wouldn't trade him for a third round pick for exactly the same reason.

Howard's biggest attributes are patience and vision. He's great at waiting for holes to develop...not so great at anticipating that they WILL develop and hitting the hole as it opens (which is why he had a lot of tackles behind the line and ran into the backs of a lot of his linemen).

As much as I like Howard if Nagy and pace see him as an impediment to the offense I think his 3.7 ypc is very replaceable via the draft.

I picked a 3rd round because that’s what I feel is a fair value. The other question is if/when it happens who do you replace him with?

I really don't see the Bears getting a 3rd back. If they are shopping him, it almost comes across as desparate. Can't see any team offering a 3rd. A 5th maybe and the Bears should NOT take it.

I don't see the Bears shopping Howard, but if they did move him, a 3rd would be a rich haul. I think that's how negotiations would start, but not where they would finish.

I don’t think Howard is going anywhere either but it does make some sense if they were trying to get the most value out of him before moving on, that would be now. A 3rd is fair and isn’t asking to much for a player that can stay healthy, averages 4.3 YPC and 8 TDs a year. For how innovative Nagy is, it’s nuts to think he can’t figure out how to use him. Or is it he’s just to stubborn?

I would suspect the 3rd is the starting point because that's realistically the highest comp pick they could get. Why move him for less?

Funkster wrote:I don’t think Howard is going anywhere either but it does make some sense if they were trying to get the most value out of him before moving on, that would be now. A 3rd is fair and isn’t asking to much for a player that can stay healthy, averages 4.3 YPC and 8 TDs a year. For how innovative Nagy is, it’s nuts to think he can’t figure out how to use him. Or is it he’s just to stubborn?

It’s just fit. Just like how you don’t use 295lb 4-3 defensive ends in 3-4 olb positions or have a bunch of really good but slower possession receivers in a deep threat offense. Can they do some aspects of it well, absolutely. Will the scheme perform as well as it could with someone having a better skill set, absolutely not.

It’s not that they can’t be successful with him, it’s could they be better with a different style of running back combined with the fact that they won’t put money in him long term so they could get return now vs waiting a year for a compensatory pick.

3rd is a starting point but if they had a handful of guys they like and thought would be available I think a 4th would get it done.

If it does happen I would prefer it to be a draft day trade when you know what you can grab at that moment. Bills could be a potential partner.

southdakbearfan wrote:

Funkster wrote:I don’t think Howard is going anywhere either but it does make some sense if they were trying to get the most value out of him before moving on, that would be now. A 3rd is fair and isn’t asking to much for a player that can stay healthy, averages 4.3 YPC and 8 TDs a year. For how innovative Nagy is, it’s nuts to think he can’t figure out how to use him. Or is it he’s just to stubborn?

It’s just fit. Just like how you don’t use 295lb 4-3 defensive ends in 3-4 olb positions or have a bunch of really good but slower possession receivers in a deep threat offense. Can they do some aspects of it well, absolutely. Will the scheme perform as well as it could with someone having a better skill set, absolutely not.

It’s not that they can’t be successful with him, it’s could they be better with a different style of running back combined with the fact that they won’t put money in him long term so they could get return now vs waiting a year for a compensatory pick.

3rd is a starting point but if they had a handful of guys they like and thought would be available I think a 4th would get it done.

If it does happen I would prefer it to be a draft day trade when you know what you can grab at that moment. Bills could be a potential partner.

I think you're 100% right. But these kinds of things bother me. On some level, I feel like good coaches should be able to modify their scheme to utilize good players. And Jordan Howard, while somewhat limited in what he does, is a good, effective player. Good coaches don't take good players and make them into guys who need replaced. Bad coaches do that.

How is it that... If you're in the camp that says Jordan Howard needs to go, then you weren't also in favor of Mike Martz trading away Greg Olsen? No 20/20 hindsight allowed here.

(Note that I'm not really throwing dirt at Matt Nagy. He DID adjust with more zone blocking at the end of the year and Jordan Howard got a lot of his effectiveness back.)

I'd like to preface this by saying I loved what Jordan Howard did in John Fox's offense. He is tailor fucking made for a pure zone blocking scheme... but that's not what we are doing here. This offense craves a dynamic back that has excellent vision, can make people miss in the hole, and can keep defenses honest by being a threat in the passing game.

Jordan Howard is not that dude, in my opinion.

I'll take anything from a 5th round pick or higher because I don't think he's a Chicago Bear after the 2019-2020 season as he enters free agency.

G08 wrote:I'd like to preface this by saying I loved what Jordan Howard did in John Fox's offense. He is tailor fucking made for a pure zone blocking scheme... but that's not what we are doing here. This offense craves a dynamic back that has excellent vision, can make people miss in the hole, and can keep defenses honest by being a threat in the passing game.

Jordan Howard is not that dude, in my opinion.

I'll take anything from a 5th round pick or higher because I don't think he's a Chicago Bear after the 2019-2020 season as he enters free agency.

So you were fine with the Bears trading away Greg Olsen because he didn't fit Mike Martz's scheme? If not, why not since you could respond similarly then as you do now?

Mikefive wrote:

G08 wrote:I'd like to preface this by saying I loved what Jordan Howard did in John Fox's offense. He is tailor fucking made for a pure zone blocking scheme... but that's not what we are doing here. This offense craves a dynamic back that has excellent vision, can make people miss in the hole, and can keep defenses honest by being a threat in the passing game.

Jordan Howard is not that dude, in my opinion.

I'll take anything from a 5th round pick or higher because I don't think he's a Chicago Bear after the 2019-2020 season as he enters free agency.

So you were fine with the Bears trading away Greg Olsen because he didn't fit Mike Martz's scheme? If not, why not since you could respond similarly then as you do now?

Mike Martz's system only proved successful when it was being operated by a HOF QB, HOF WR1, 2 other Probowl WR's, HOF RB, HOF LT and a very good offensive line and proved to be disastrous outside of that, even prior to the trade of olsen. It was flat out dumb.

The Nagy/Reid system is quite the opposite and in KC it has had 4 different but very effective leading rushers the last 5 seasons.

Bringing up Olsen's past situation is irrelevant. Howard can't do what we need our RB position to be able to do. Olsen could do everything but block so should have been effective in Martz's offense. My feeling is that either Olsen didn't want to be here anymore or someone got sick of him.

Olsen was NOT a fit in Martz's offense. But we all saw what a dope Martz was and knew he wasn't a long term solution as an offensive playcaller for the Bears. So people were upset that a cornerstone player was being traded away because he was a bad fit in an offense being run by a guy that was only going to be around for a year or two.

That's not the case with Howard. Nagy isn't a short term fix.

Also...another difference between Olsen and Howard is that Howard physically can't do what this offense requires from him. In Olsen's case, he was never really given the opportunity to prove he could or couldn't (he could).

Mikefive wrote:

G08 wrote:I'd like to preface this by saying I loved what Jordan Howard did in John Fox's offense. He is tailor fucking made for a pure zone blocking scheme... but that's not what we are doing here. This offense craves a dynamic back that has excellent vision, can make people miss in the hole, and can keep defenses honest by being a threat in the passing game.

Jordan Howard is not that dude, in my opinion.

I'll take anything from a 5th round pick or higher because I don't think he's a Chicago Bear after the 2019-2020 season as he enters free agency.

So you were fine with the Bears trading away Greg Olsen because he didn't fit Mike Martz's scheme? If not, why not since you could respond similarly then as you do now?

Apples to oranges... Martz wasn't going to be the offensive coordinator "for the foreseeable future". Nagy is here for the long-haul and the sooner he gets his ideal RB the better. Plus, Martz never utilized a TE in his career (some genius, huh?).

The long and the short of this is that Howard can't do what Nagy's offense craves. He's not explosive, he won't really make people miss in the hole, and he clearly is not a legitimate threat in the passing game. You want a good example of what I'm talking about? Look at this play from Hunt... THIS is what our offense needs:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hZ0LnoXsbE" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

wab wrote:Olsen was NOT a fit in Martz's offense. But we all saw what a dope Martz was and knew he wasn't a long term solution as an offensive playcaller for the Bears. So people were upset that a cornerstone player was being traded away because he was a bad fit in an offense being run by a guy that was only going to be around for a year or two.

That's not the case with Howard. Nagy isn't a short term fix.

Also...another difference between Olsen and Howard is that Howard physically can't do what this offense requires from him. In Olsen's case, he was never really given the opportunity to prove he could or couldn't (he could).

Just saw your reply... 100% what I am talking about.

The world. I love the kid. Great person, excellent work ethic, perfect teammate and the consummate pro.

If we are not going to use him the let him walk and I will watch the games he plays in. But enough of the trade rumors. Either trade him or let him know where he stands. The Bears owe him that much.