Mitch Trubisky & General Quarterback Banter

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Drone7
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Re: Mitch Trubisky & General Quarterback Banter

Fri Feb 07, 2020 2:04 pm

What scares me about Mitch is that he is likely to improve enough to convince his chief backer Pace to consider him the unquestioned starter in the 5th year (Pace is almost sure to pick up soon) and this drags on for a couple more years...and the team just becomes a pretty good team without high draft slots to replace him

So, I am hoping for a substantial turn around early with more command/consistency or he shits the bed quickly so they get a definitive answer soon.

No, I don't believe he plays the position as well as an average+ QB, Dalton. Although, I agree it is unlikely the draft capital short Bears seek him. The Bengals took too long to figure out too much had to be right around him to not just get to, but win playoff games.

Average+ starting QBs lose at home to Philip Rivers like Dalton did when they were favored.

Bears have several QBs in the division, conference much less the AFC that are a lot better. Gulp.

I want better than "you can win with" types that haven't won in the playoffs--...where the team has to have an outlying year with injuries and a stacked team on both sides of the ball that's well-coached to make a deep run.
Last edited by Drone7 on Fri Feb 07, 2020 2:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Mitch Trubisky & General Quarterback Banter

Fri Feb 07, 2020 2:05 pm

dplank wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 1:23 pm
I don't mean to, I'm trying to understand. The jilted lovers explanation is one I've heard repeatedly in one form or another, with the implication being that Bears fans aren't seeing things right because they are too emotionally attached. But that doesn't explain the near unanimous agreement among professional NFL pundits nationally that Mitch isn't any good. So the jilted lovers argument doesn't hold water. I'm trying to understand how you rationalize this obvious problem with the logic.
It's a fallacious (and a bit provocative) argument, addressing the opponent instead of what the opponent is saying. Whether or not someone was disappointed in Trubisky or had their crystal ball well-polished and predicted his performance with precision.... that has exactly zero to do with whether he performed well or not. He did not. There is really no substantive argument against the case you laid out, plank. It's logical.

wab's core perspective seems to be it is a waste of time to dwell on that regardless, even if it is true that it doesn't look good for Mitch... which, if I have that right, makes sense - when you have no control you might as well be optimistic while you can. I think the consternation right now is general nervousness about whether the team will make the moves most people would like to see them make in FA and draft. And once that happens (it will for the most part) people will trend towards optimism in a few months.

In addition to players, I think the Bears have demonstrated that it wasn't just the players - so there should be optimism around the new coaches as well.
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Re: Mitch Trubisky & General Quarterback Banter

Fri Feb 07, 2020 2:08 pm

dplank wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 10:50 am
At this point, the burden of proof clearly shifts to his supporters to explain why they think he specifically will buck the odds and turn it around.
I feel like I have been with development, result comparison from other QBs in the same scheme, etc.

I do think Trubisky struggles to read complex coverages or "unique" rotations. I don't think this is due to laziness or not working on it... you can watch all the tape in the world from what you have faced in the NFL, but the only way to improve in this facet is playing in the actual games.

So for me, he's had 2 full years in this system. He's seen myriad coverages and his receivers have as well... it's on tape to get everyone on the same page in terms of adjustments, where the ball should go based on what the coverage determines, etc. If he doesn't do it in year 3, I'm fully on board to turn the page in 2021. Fully.
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First 43 starts:

Drew Brees: 61.1% | 8760 yards | 57 TDs | 40 INTs | 6.65 YPA | 82.5

Mitch Trubisky: 63.2% | 8986 yards | 53 TDs | 31 INTs | 6.7 YPA | 86.1
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Re: Mitch Trubisky & General Quarterback Banter

Fri Feb 07, 2020 2:16 pm

IE wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 2:05 pm
dplank wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 1:23 pm
I don't mean to, I'm trying to understand. The jilted lovers explanation is one I've heard repeatedly in one form or another, with the implication being that Bears fans aren't seeing things right because they are too emotionally attached. But that doesn't explain the near unanimous agreement among professional NFL pundits nationally that Mitch isn't any good. So the jilted lovers argument doesn't hold water. I'm trying to understand how you rationalize this obvious problem with the logic.
It's a fallacious (and a bit provocative) argument, addressing the opponent instead of what the opponent is saying. Whether or not someone was disappointed in Trubisky or had their crystal ball well-polished and predicted his performance with precision.... that has exactly zero to do with whether he performed well or not. He did not. There is really no substantive argument against the case you laid out, plank. It's logical.

wab's core perspective seems to be it is a waste of time to dwell on that regardless, even if it is true that it doesn't look good for Mitch... which, if I have that right, makes sense - when you have no control you might as well be optimistic while you can. I think the consternation right now is general nervousness about whether the team will make the moves most people would like to see them make in FA and draft. And once that happens (it will for the most part) people will trend towards optimism in a few months.

In addition to players, I think the Bears have demonstrated that it wasn't just the players - so there should be optimism around the new coaches as well.
Well said. It's an emotional time and we have another month or so before we get more tangible FA/draft stuff to sink our teeth into. The mix of disappointment, frustration, and impatience never mixes well with speculation and theorizing.
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Re: Mitch Trubisky & General Quarterback Banter

Fri Feb 07, 2020 2:26 pm

ok...i'd just ask as politely as I possibly can, that folks follow G08's model of making their points without casting others as irrational diva's who can't control their emotion just because we believe that Mitch isn't any good and think it's time to move on from him. It's not an outlandish position and is in fact routinely affirmed in the national media talk. So to your point IE, make your points about the player and not about the person you are discussing it with.

My preference would be to believe in the kid, since he's 90% likely to be our starter next year. I'm struggling to convince myself of it though.
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Re: Mitch Trubisky & General Quarterback Banter

Fri Feb 07, 2020 2:27 pm

IE is pretty spot on with his assessment.

I guess I don't understand what is so confusing about my position.

1 - With very few exceptions and/or luck, the Bears with their current resources, can't do significantly better than Mitch Trubisky in 2020.

2 - Mitch Trubisky has to be significantly better in 2020 to remain on the team.
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Re: Mitch Trubisky & General Quarterback Banter

Fri Feb 07, 2020 2:28 pm

dplank wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 2:26 pm
ok...i'd just ask as politely as I possibly can, that folks follow G08's model of making their points without casting others as irrational diva's who can't control their emotion just because we believe that Mitch isn't any good and think it's time to move on from him.
Hey @UOK... I've come a long way, baby! :lol:
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First 43 starts:

Drew Brees: 61.1% | 8760 yards | 57 TDs | 40 INTs | 6.65 YPA | 82.5

Mitch Trubisky: 63.2% | 8986 yards | 53 TDs | 31 INTs | 6.7 YPA | 86.1
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Re: Mitch Trubisky & General Quarterback Banter

Fri Feb 07, 2020 2:30 pm

G08 wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 2:28 pm
dplank wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 2:26 pm
ok...i'd just ask as politely as I possibly can, that folks follow G08's model of making their points without casting others as irrational diva's who can't control their emotion just because we believe that Mitch isn't any good and think it's time to move on from him.
Hey @UOK... I've come a long way, baby! :lol:
Eh. I was generalizing Bears fans as a whole. I guess people personalize that when it his close to home.
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Re: Mitch Trubisky & General Quarterback Banter

Fri Feb 07, 2020 3:13 pm

wab wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 2:27 pm
I guess I don't understand what is so confusing about my position.

1 - With very few exceptions and/or luck, the Bears with their current resources, can't do significantly better than Mitch Trubisky in 2020.

2 - Mitch Trubisky has to be significantly better in 2020 to remain on the team.
dplank wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 2:26 pm
ok...i'd just ask as politely as I possibly can, that folks follow G08's model of making their points without casting others as irrational diva's who can't control their emotion just because we believe that Mitch isn't any good and think it's time to move on from him. It's not an outlandish position and is in fact routinely affirmed in the national media talk. So to your point IE, make your points about the player and not about the person you are discussing it with.

My preference would be to believe in the kid, since he's 90% likely to be our starter next year. I'm struggling to convince myself of it though.
wab wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 2:30 pm
Eh. I was generalizing Bears fans as a whole. I guess people personalize that when it his close to home.
Things to do:

1. Not take things personally, as this is an internet message board where we're all rooting for the same team
2. Not make things personal, as this is an internet message board where we're likely never to actually meet
3. Take the high road when possible
4. Don't embrace a victim's mentality
5. Agreeing to disagree is an okay outcome
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Re: Mitch Trubisky & General Quarterback Banter

Fri Feb 07, 2020 3:44 pm

And read UOK's sig!!! :thumbsup:
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Re: Mitch Trubisky & General Quarterback Banter

Fri Feb 07, 2020 4:36 pm

Yeah, G. Instead of casting others as an irrational diva... you stepped up to the plate to fill that role.

j/k j/k

On topic... the one thing I'd really like to see changed with 10 is he really has to lose that beard. Or at least let it get scruffy like it's intentionally bad. It's hard to look at, seriously. He looks like a teenager with a fake beard. hehe
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Re: Mitch Trubisky & General Quarterback Banter

Fri Feb 07, 2020 5:02 pm

1256054_400x400.jpg
We're all clamoring for another neck beard, no?

Ahh Kyle Orton... Those were the days.
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Re: Mitch Trubisky & General Quarterback Banter

Fri Feb 07, 2020 5:40 pm

IE wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 4:36 pm
Yeah, G. Instead of casting others as an irrational diva... you stepped up to the plate to fill that role.


:rimshot:

IE wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 4:36 pm
On topic... the one thing I'd really like to see changed with 10 is he really has to lose that beard. Or at least let it get scruffy like it's intentionally bad. It's hard to look at, seriously. He looks like a teenager with a fake beard. hehe
he's certainly no Kyle Orton
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Re: Mitch Trubisky & General Quarterback Banter

Fri Feb 07, 2020 6:29 pm

Sounds like Nagy has Lazor, Castillo and DeFilippo in his office working through their various offensive schemes.

Could we see a change in what we are doing philosophically?
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First 43 starts:

Drew Brees: 61.1% | 8760 yards | 57 TDs | 40 INTs | 6.65 YPA | 82.5

Mitch Trubisky: 63.2% | 8986 yards | 53 TDs | 31 INTs | 6.7 YPA | 86.1
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Re: Mitch Trubisky & General Quarterback Banter

Fri Feb 07, 2020 8:18 pm

G08 wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 6:29 pm
Sounds like Nagy has Lazor, Castillo and DeFilippo in his office working through their various offensive schemes.

Could we see a change in what we are doing philosophically?
I guarantee all the best offenses are meeting now and evolving so the worst better be too.
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Re: Mitch Trubisky & General Quarterback Banter

Sat Feb 08, 2020 11:23 am

G08 wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 6:29 pm
Sounds like Nagy has Lazor, Castillo and DeFilippo in his office working through their various offensive schemes.

Could we see a change in what we are doing philosophically?
We still haven't seen what Nagy's version of this offense looks like with a fully functional running attack... watching the plays it was almost like they were cursed as it appeared a different guy would make a mistake on each play... two guys would start a combo block and the guy who was supposed to hold the initial dlineman would fall down which would cause the guy who was supposed to climb to the second level to get stuck holding the block on the dlineman and thus the hole would get filled by the linebacker who he was supposed to blocking... it was weird to see it happen that way because it never seemed to be the same guy... then just watching Long labor with his broken body hurt my soul... that man wanted to bad to keep playing but he just couldn't...
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Re: Mitch Trubisky & General Quarterback Banter

Sat Feb 08, 2020 11:43 am

Cursed or exposed?
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Re: Mitch Trubisky & General Quarterback Banter

Sat Feb 08, 2020 12:02 pm

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Re: Mitch Trubisky & General Quarterback Banter

Sat Feb 08, 2020 12:16 pm

Want me to point you to a support group, IE? :)
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Re: Mitch Trubisky & General Quarterback Banter

Sat Feb 08, 2020 12:19 pm

BamaBear09 wrote:
Sat Feb 08, 2020 11:23 am
G08 wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 6:29 pm
Sounds like Nagy has Lazor, Castillo and DeFilippo in his office working through their various offensive schemes.

Could we see a change in what we are doing philosophically?
We still haven't seen what Nagy's version of this offense looks like with a fully functional running attack... watching the plays it was almost like they were cursed as it appeared a different guy would make a mistake on each play... two guys would start a combo block and the guy who was supposed to hold the initial dlineman would fall down which would cause the guy who was supposed to climb to the second level to get stuck holding the block on the dlineman and thus the hole would get filled by the linebacker who he was supposed to blocking... it was weird to see it happen that way because it never seemed to be the same guy... then just watching Long labor with his broken body hurt my soul... that man wanted to bad to keep playing but he just couldn't...
My concern all last year was that Nagy was designing & trying to implement things that were too fancy/complicated, and the more you go down that path the risk of the wheels coming off get far greater. Especially with average tackles, swapped players in multiple positions, a failing RG and a converted defensive lineman. That was not the ideal time to introduce complexity, and stubbornly stick to it.

I can totally see why his strategies would seem to work in practice, but then fall apart in a real game, and I can see why the Bear defense *could* unwittingly enable that by not really practicing at full speed (which they don't) or rationalizing "we know what they're trying to do, so it really isn't fair for us to always stop them in practice". The real test is in games, and we saw what happened. It was devastating.

It could be the coaches just couldn't teach it properly. Or adjust properly. Or the players aren't competent enough. But to me they looked like me trying to solve a rubik's cube. I can try over & over and will not be successful. I can get one side easy, but the then next steps? Forget it. It takes me about 5 minutes to understand that & put it down. To me it looked like Nagy kept trying to solve the cube all...season...long. That's what the Bear offense looked like to me. And what reinforce my thinking is when they went outside of his philosophy a few times, all the of the sudden things looked better. Mitch looked better. The OL looked better, and the run game looked better out of I formation. It's true.

Long story short... whatever these coaches are doing right now, I hope it is to "evolve" Nagy's "system" to: 1.) simplify things overall a bit, and 2.) identify the things the players they have can do best & build around that. So yeah, G - I hope so.
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Re: Mitch Trubisky & General Quarterback Banter

Sat Feb 08, 2020 7:44 pm

IE wrote:
Sat Feb 08, 2020 12:19 pm
And what reinforce my thinking is when they went outside of his philosophy a few times, all the of the sudden things looked better. Mitch looked better. The OL looked better, and the run game looked better out of I formation. It's true.
Back in the day, Ron Turner received a lot of hate as the Bears' OC. I, however, admired him greatly. He managed to pare his telephone-book-thick playbook down to the wristband that 4th rd - little preseason playtime Neckbeard used to ineptly QB the Bears to 11-5 (with the Bears' best D since 85).

I am forever convinced that Ron rolled dice whenever he called a play. Very forward thinking. If you understand "game theory" you know what I'm referring to. If not, but are interested, I highly recommend "The Compleat Strategyst" from the Rand think tank which presents a humerus treatment (spoiler alert: if you understand it, it spoils a lot).
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Re: Mitch Trubisky & General Quarterback Banter

Sun Feb 09, 2020 9:42 am

I believe Pace and the scouting department totally failed in their assessment of Trubisky with the criteria they used to select him. It was strongly based on future potential and largely discounted actual college production. GMs can't get locked into a candidate on that basis. The Bears still have a SB window open. I don't believe they will reach it with Trubisky nor a 2nd tier veteran in 2020. If they want to make a serious run in 2020, they need to fill needs through the draft (TE, OL, OLB, CB/S) and pay Bridgewater or Carr $20 to $25M. If Carr comes available, they need to not give up the farm, defer draft picks till 2021, and not give up a 1st. If Oakland wants to get rid of him because they've gotten another QB, they'll be more willing to sell low.
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Re: Mitch Trubisky & General Quarterback Banter

Sun Feb 09, 2020 10:06 am

Middleguard wrote:
Sat Feb 08, 2020 7:44 pm
IE wrote:
Sat Feb 08, 2020 12:19 pm
And what reinforce my thinking is when they went outside of his philosophy a few times, all the of the sudden things looked better. Mitch looked better. The OL looked better, and the run game looked better out of I formation. It's true.
Back in the day, Ron Turner received a lot of hate as the Bears' OC. I, however, admired him greatly. He managed to pare his telephone-book-thick playbook down to the wristband that 4th rd - little preseason playtime Neckbeard used to ineptly QB the Bears to 11-5 (with the Bears' best D since 85).

I am forever convinced that Ron rolled dice whenever he called a play. Very forward thinking. If you understand "game theory" you know what I'm referring to. If not, but are interested, I highly recommend "The Compleat Strategyst" from the Rand think tank which presents a humerus treatment (spoiler alert: if you understand it, it spoils a lot).
I only have a superficial familiarity with game theory. In terms of actual game types, I'll say that in my mind Nagy (who is indeed very smart) has a tendency to play transparently like he's playing chess. Even his intended distractions and fakes are just transparent things in a series of moves. And the reason I personally think it doesn't work is because defensive coaches (at least good ones) tend to be more like poker players. I also think that is why the Niners were particularly successful this year on offense. Shanahan is a poker player.

In terms of broader or more mainstream uses of game theory to predict outcomes, I guess I'd also add that I believe Nagy's strategies seem to really minimize the range of positive outcomes on each individual play. His decision at the end of the Chargers game perfectly displayed that. It is not a good trait for a coach if you want the odds of winning in your favor.

My opinion of Nagy in 2019 is he was always rolling for boxcars, and although the table recognized his tells he still bluffed. That explains the under-performing season, and also the success when he strayed from his strategy and they couldn't read him.
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Re: Mitch Trubisky & General Quarterback Banter

Sun Feb 09, 2020 10:25 am

What evidence is there that Nagy is "really smart"?
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Re: Mitch Trubisky & General Quarterback Banter

Sun Feb 09, 2020 10:42 am

Drone7 wrote:
Sun Feb 09, 2020 10:25 am
What evidence is there that Nagy is "really smart"?
Those weren't significant words, so you can ignore them and focus on the overall meaning.
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Re: Mitch Trubisky & General Quarterback Banter

Wed Feb 12, 2020 8:04 pm

Kurt Warner on Mitch Trubisky's Inconsistency as a Quarterback & Chicago Bears Outlook

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YFnHn5kz6KY
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Re: Mitch Trubisky & General Quarterback Banter

Wed Feb 12, 2020 8:41 pm

HisRoyalSweetness wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 8:04 pm
Kurt Warner on Mitch Trubisky's Inconsistency as a Quarterback & Chicago Bears Outlook

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YFnHn5kz6KY
Thanks for posting, but I was disappointed in that interview. He let Kurt ramble instead of specifically asking what he saw on tape. Never seen Kurt that wishy-washy, yet so amped up. Stay off the coffee, Kurt. And I've seen him many times on NFL Network (when I used to have it)

I previously mentioned some tape criticism Kurt did of Trubisky on NFL Network, where he talked more slowly and lucidly about mistakes Trubisky made reading the field. Specifics. I was asked here to find it, so I went on Google Search/Youtube and found a video of his, but the wrong one. Can't locate it. Anyway, it's out there somewhere...

He's vaguely right that it's hard to tell from the outside...but, I doubt they know on the inside at HH either. All we know is that they have a simplified things and have staked a lot on him being a trade-up to #2. And appear to be sending him out there again with new coaching and a few new players(?). He's also right that others have struggled early and eventually succeeded. I don't accept the Brees' comparisons though, because at least Brees had good fundamentals from the pocket early on, which he doesn't have. And Brees seemed a much more alert, composed player. Never saw Brees with the deer in the headlights look seen on Trubisky's face a few times against GB, and mid-season this year. Maybe he can become a Gannon--somewhat similar athletic types. But Gannon didn't have the pressure of being a high pick that needs to deliver early, and kicked around before showing command later on.

We are hostage to Pace's plan. So we'll soon see how it works out this year.
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Re: Mitch Trubisky & General Quarterback Banter

Thu Feb 13, 2020 12:03 am

HisRoyalSweetness wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 8:04 pm
Kurt Warner on Mitch Trubisky's Inconsistency as a Quarterback & Chicago Bears Outlook

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YFnHn5kz6KY
OH MY GOD HE TALKED ABOUT DREW BREES

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:lol:
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First 43 starts:

Drew Brees: 61.1% | 8760 yards | 57 TDs | 40 INTs | 6.65 YPA | 82.5

Mitch Trubisky: 63.2% | 8986 yards | 53 TDs | 31 INTs | 6.7 YPA | 86.1
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Trubisky fans may want to look away

Sat Feb 15, 2020 10:22 am

Pretty devastating article IMO. 73% choose Winston over Trubisky.....ouch.

https://www.nbcsports.com/chicago/bears ... -look-away

It's easy to understand why football fans want to believe in a quarterback who was selected with a high first-round pick, who has a likable personality and who by all accounts has the necessary work ethic to become a successful pro. That's who Mitch Trubisky is, and that's why Bears fans are forcing themselves to believe that 2020 can be different than his massive letdown last season. They're keeping the faith, hoping for a turnaround when there's no evidence to suggest one's coming.

Bears fans rally around a simple war cry. It was the playcalling! The offensive line! The wide receivers running the wrong routes! Translation: it was everything but Mitch.

Sounds crazy, right?

That's because it is. Trubisky hasn't produced enough positive plays in his three seasons as a starter to deserve the benefit of the doubt. In fact, he should be considered the source of any doubt that surrounds this team's upside in 2020.

But back to those pesky fans. They want to believe, and that belief will last until Trubisky's final snap as the Bears starter, whenever that might come.

Social media is a great place to go to get outside the bubble of Bears fandom and gather a better sense of what the national opinion of a player is. In the case of Trubisky, that opinion isn't a positive one, as proven in a poll posted by Evan Silva, a nationally respected fantasy football writer.

Silva posed a simple question:

You are GM of an NFL franchise. You have no access to Patrick Mahomes, any actually good quarterback, or any fountain of rookie hope. These are your only 3 available building-block QB options and you must pick from them & them only: Mitch Trubisky, Taysom Hill or Jameis Winston?

The results are pretty astonishing, even for those of us who've deboarded the Trubisky train. More than 73% of the 23,000 votes favored Winston. Then came Hill, with over 17% of the votes. Bringing up the rear was Trubisky, who was hovering around 10%.

What does all this mean? First, it goes to show how little respect Trubisky has from football fans as a viable starter in 2020. Second, it may be time to consider Winston a legitimate option as a replacement. His upside is worth the risk of his turnover downside. And finally, let's get real with what went wrong in 2019.

Trubisky wasn't good. It's just that simple. He missed basic, routine throws and many of his completions went for fewer yards than they should've because of poor ball placement. Was he banged up? Sure. But that's also becoming a trend for a player who needs to be consistently available in the starting lineup if he wants to be consistently great.

It's hard to admit this, right? It isn't easy to say the franchise quarterback is anything but that right now. No one wants to give up on a player who's supposed to be the face of the franchise. It's painful, and that pain stings even more when considering who Ryan Pace could've drafted in 2017 instead of Trubisky.

The sooner Chicago moves on from Mitch, the sooner that wound will heal. It sounds insane, but it's true. The best medicine for a mistake as massive as the Trubisky pick is the strength and courage it takes to admit it.

Pace doesn't need to get behind a microphone and vomit apologies to Bears fans for picking the wrong guy. All he has to do is sign the right guy in free agency to replace Trubisky in 2020. If he does, then he can keep swinging on quarterback prospects in the draft until he gets it right.

Bears fans will forgive him. They'll move on. But they can't move on until the team moves on, and that takes courage. We'll soon find out if this front office has any.
Chuck Pagano's defensive rankings in 6 years with Indy: 26th, 20th, 11th, 26th, 30th, and 30th.
Drone7
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Re: Trubisky fans may want to look away

Sat Feb 15, 2020 10:29 am

I won't forgive him. Mediocre GMs are more dangerous than inept ones that quickly get replaced.

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