Mitch Trubisky & General Quarterback Banter

[G08]

Not directed at you specifically, but this is why I hate sects of our fanbase.

I've reread my post and don't see anything that's really very arguable at all.

What specific part are you objecting to?

In the last 20 years,
• Orton had a career rating in the low 80s. Although that was pulled down significantly by 1 awful rookie year. Aside from that, he was a high 80s type guy.
• Cutler had a career rating in the high 80s.
• Mitch currently has a career rating in the high 80s.
(Brian Hoyer had better numbers, but only 5 Bear starts)
(Josh McCown had better numbers, but only 7 Bear starts)

Orton has the benefit of being the longest ago, so passing rules weren’t quite as cushy and numbers weren’t as high then.
Orton also has the benefit of coming cheaply and being a pleasant surprise, whereas Cutler was expensive and greatly failed to meet expectations, and Mitch was expensive and is currently faltering on expectations.

Orton isn’t “the obvious choice” or anything, but there’s nothing at all unreasonable about him being your favorite out of that pack.

Well, for starters, who cares what Kyle Orton did in his career when he played less than 40% of his career in Chicago? Then you look at his numbers:

55.3% completion, 5319 yards, 30 TDs, 27 INTs, 5.8 Y/A and a 71.1 rating

and I wonder how anyone with a sane football mind could consider him the 'favorite out of that pack' let alone 'good' or 'talented'. I don't think @wab was referencing career numbers when he said: "Sometimes I don't know how to feel about a fan base who's most beloved QB was Kyle Orton", but I could be wrong.

I also hate that it's 2019 and we are still talking about Kyle fucking Orton.

Carry on.

[Rusty Trombagent]

OMFG can we please keep this shit in the Grossman/Orton subforum?

[Wounded Bear]

A few observations about Chase Daniel:

* He seems to know the offense better than Trubisky
* He seems to be more comfortable in the offense than Trubisky
* He seems to make multiple reads during pass plays unlike Trubisky
* He seems to be able to read the defense better than Trubisky
* And, therefore, he makes quicker, more decisive throws when throwing to a receiver. Much better ball placement in general, but I really like the back-shoulder throws on deeper routes.


Trubisky observations:

* He has a better arm than Chase
* He has better wheels than Chase
* He seems to have a much higher ceiling than chase
* But he seems to have almost taken a step backwards rather than forwards so far this year when compared to the end of last season


Do I think that Trubisky will be the better QB by the end of his career? Yes

Do I think that Trubisky is the better than Chase right now (that is, even if he wasn't hurt)? No, not at this moment right now.

If Chase does play well this/these next game(s), I think it will be very interesting how the general public and the press might react.

[UOK]

A few observations about Chase Daniel:

* He seems to know the offense better than Trubisky
* He seems to be more comfortable in the offense than Trubisky
* He seems to make multiple reads during pass plays unlike Trubisky
* He seems to be able to read the defense better than Trubisky
* And, therefore, he makes quicker, more decisive throws when throwing to a receiver. Much better ball placement in general, but I really like the back-shoulder throws on deeper routes.

He's been in the offense far longer. He's been working with Nagy/Reid/Pederson since 2013.

He's been in the NFL for 10 years, and has seen far more football than Mitch has in his young career. He's got a ton of knowledge about how to play the position within the limitations of his ability. There's a reason he's been one of the most sought after backups in football.

Guy was a UDFA out of Missourri who's 6 feet flat and 200 pounds of dad bod, but keeps getting deals. Those around the league know his value, and pay him accordingly, in spite of what more critical fans may think.

[Richie]

I've reread my post and don't see anything that's really very arguable at all.

What specific part are you objecting to?

Well, for starters, who cares what Kyle Orton did in his career when he played less than 40% of his career in Chicago? Then you look at his numbers:

55.3% completion, 5319 yards, 30 TDs, 27 INTs, 5.8 Y/A and a 71.1 rating

and I wonder how anyone with a sane football mind could consider him the 'favorite out of that pack' let alone 'good' or 'talented'. I don't think @wab was referencing career numbers when he said: "Sometimes I don't know how to feel about a fan base who's most beloved QB was Kyle Orton", but I could be wrong.

I also hate that it's 2019 and we are still talking about Kyle fucking Orton.

Carry on.

55.3% completion, 5319 yards, 30 TDs, 27 INTs, 5.8 Y/A and a 71.1 rating

Well, two things...

- Adjusted properly for era. Those numbers are not NEARLY as far behind Trubisky's as you would think.

- When people think about the Kyle Orton that they somewhat liked at QB. It's 2008 Orton. Not the raw and untamed rookie 2005 Kyle Orton.

His passing numbers in 08 are basically Trubisky's if you adjust them properly. That's with Devin Hester, Rashied Davis, Brandin Lloyd and an ancient Marty Booker making up his receiving corp. With a run game averaging under 4 YPC.

I don't think anyone here is giving up on Trubisky. Merely, we're just not pretending that he's been an upgrade over any of the old names at this point.

[Mikefive]

The potentially scary thing about Chase is that he's much more vulnerable to the pass rush because he doesn't have Mitch's wildcard athletic skill. Teams are going to be more likely to test our OL and bring pressure. And our OL hasn't been great.

[G08]

Well, for starters, who cares what Kyle Orton did in his career when he played less than 40% of his career in Chicago? Then you look at his numbers:

55.3% completion, 5319 yards, 30 TDs, 27 INTs, 5.8 Y/A and a 71.1 rating

and I wonder how anyone with a sane football mind could consider him the 'favorite out of that pack' let alone 'good' or 'talented'. I don't think @wab was referencing career numbers when he said: "Sometimes I don't know how to feel about a fan base who's most beloved QB was Kyle Orton", but I could be wrong.

I also hate that it's 2019 and we are still talking about Kyle fucking Orton.

Carry on.

55.3% completion, 5319 yards, 30 TDs, 27 INTs, 5.8 Y/A and a 71.1 rating

Well, two things...

- Adjusted properly for era. Those numbers are not NEARLY as far behind Trubisky's as you would think.

- When people think about the Kyle Orton that they somewhat liked at QB. It's 2008 Orton. Not the raw and untamed rookie 2005 Kyle Orton.

His passing numbers in 08 are basically Trubisky's if you adjust them properly. That's with Devin Hester, Rashied Davis, Brandin Lloyd and an ancient Marty Booker making up his receiving corp. With a run game averaging under 4 YPC.

I don't think anyone here is giving up on Trubisky. Merely, we're just not pretending that he's been an upgrade over any of the old names at this point.

How does one adjust properly for era? Does it involve calculating the axis upon which the Earth was spinning when said passes were being thrown?

Give me a break man, this is not comparing 2019 to 1965 and these qualifiers you continue to add to make your points, to me, are disingenuous at best.

I don't know what to say, I'm stunned at how wrong I think you are but as I said before, we can agree to disagree. Kyle Orton couldn't hold Mitchell Trubisky's jock.

Also, using your logic, Phillip Rivers in 2008 had the greatest QB season in the history of football.

[wab]

The Bears offense played on a short field all game. They had 3 trips to the red zone. The guy that has been in some version of this offense for 11 years and this EXACT offense for 8 or those 11 years, only put of 6 points.

I like Chase Daniel. He's arguably the best backup in the NFL for this particular team and this particular offense. But there is a very good reason that he's only started 4 games in 11 years.

[G08]

The Bears offense played on a short field all game. They had 3 trips to the red zone. The guy that has been in some version of this offense for 11 years and this EXACT offense for 8 or those 11 years, only put of 6 points.

I like Chase Daniel. He's arguably the best backup in the NFL for this particular team and this particular offense. But there is a very good reason that he's only started 4 games in 11 years.

Nagy said Chase knows the offense as well as he does. That is gold in a backup QB.

[Boris13c]

I've pretty much determined it isn't going to matter who the Bears have at QB, the conversation will always take a weird turn

* Mitch is talented and young and has flaws he needs to work on / is working on
* Chase is experienced and remarkably average, but the Bears can still win with him

Tarik Cohen was mentioned as the Bears emergency QB against the Vikings ... haven't seen anything on the official site about another QB move but I would think they need someone other than Cohen while Mitch is out ... any news on that front?

[Umbali]

I am sure someone will rip me for this but, Chase with this D brings to mind the Ravens and Dilfer...it was Dilfer right? lol

[wab]

I am sure someone will rip me for this but, Chase with this D brings to mind the Ravens and Dilfer...it was Dilfer right? lol

That's what infuriates me.

Bears fans on Mitch: We are wasting the best defense in the NFL. We need him to be better than Trent Dilfer!

Bears fans on Chase: We have the best defense in the NFL. We just need him to be Trent Dilfer!

[Ormazd]

I am sure someone will rip me for this but, Chase with this D brings to mind the Ravens and Dilfer...it was Dilfer right? lol

That's what infuriates me.

Bears fans on Mitch: We are wasting the best defense in the NFL. We need him to be better than Trent Dilfer!

Bears fans on Chase: We have the best defense in the NFL. We just need him to be Trent Dilfer!

That's the difference in expectations re a guy we traded up to get (ahead of Watson and Mahomes) vs a career backup.

[wab]

That's what infuriates me.

Bears fans on Mitch: We are wasting the best defense in the NFL. We need him to be better than Trent Dilfer!

Bears fans on Chase: We have the best defense in the NFL. We just need him to be Trent Dilfer!

That's the difference in expectations re a guy we traded up to get (ahead of Watson and Mahomes) vs a career backup.

The problem is that expectations don't exist in a vacuum. Where the expectations for Chase are at least somewhat realistic, the expectations for Mitch are less so at this exact point in time in both of their careers.

This speaks to UOK's contention that it's easier and more preferable for Bears fans to root for a plucky underdog.

[Mikefive]

That's what infuriates me.

Bears fans on Mitch: We are wasting the best defense in the NFL. We need him to be better than Trent Dilfer!

Bears fans on Chase: We have the best defense in the NFL. We just need him to be Trent Dilfer!

That's the difference in expectations re a guy we traded up to get (ahead of Watson and Mahomes) vs a career backup.

It's all about the P-word. Mitch has a lot. Chase not really.

[Rakshir]

Chase seems more comfortable in the pocket. I don't know if his lack of mobility pretty much ensures he's not looking to run, but he seemed calmer in the pocket and went through his reads. I'd love to see more of that from Mitch. Once Mitch is healthy, he's our starting QB. He needs a chance to grow.

[Bad Flanders]

I'm going to say it! I don't think Jay Cutler is ever going to take a team to the Superbowl!

I love you guys!

Mitch seems oddly in need of some sort of wake up call. Is that motivation? doesn't seem to fit him but maybe.

What's it matter right now anyway? All we can do is just hope they have the balls to cut bait if THEY really know deep down that he's not going to make it. And if you accept that they do have the balls for that, then you accept that there is a reason they are still trying with him and it's probably a pretty good one.

Don't get too upset when the world isn't actually as rosey as it looked through the rose colored glasses before that first GB game. There are still some pretty good things.

[southdakbearfan]

I am sure someone will rip me for this but, Chase with this D brings to mind the Ravens and Dilfer...it was Dilfer right? lol

Not really, Dilfer was a failed first round pick with a lot of starter experience. He was signed to be a back up after failing as a starter. He did ok but was carried by the 2nd best defense ever and a grinding running attack. Which was good because of dilfers tendencies to throw interceptions.

Chase was drafted as a limited backup who has value because of his knowledge in the offense after so many years as a backup in it. His physical tools are much poorer than Dilfers were imo, but he may have better mental tools. This offense needs more from chase than the ravens did from Dilfer due to its style and difficulty in running the football. Chase also seems much more risk adverse than Dilfer proved to ever be as he doesn’t turn it over given the limited sample size.

Other than both teams having great defenses and injured starting qbs there isn’t a lot of similarity.

[southdakbearfan]

Chase seems more comfortable in the pocket. I don't know if his lack of mobility pretty much ensures he's not looking to run, but he seemed calmer in the pocket and went through his reads. I'd love to see more of that from Mitch. Once Mitch is healthy, he's our starting QB. He needs a chance to grow.

I think the Vikings backed off a bit while they figured out exactly how different the offense would be once Mitch was out.

It’s fairly common for a backup to do well when not gameplanned for and then sink when teams know prior that they are the starter.

[Mikefive]

Chase seems more comfortable in the pocket. I don't know if his lack of mobility pretty much ensures he's not looking to run, but he seemed calmer in the pocket and went through his reads. I'd love to see more of that from Mitch. Once Mitch is healthy, he's our starting QB. He needs a chance to grow.

I think the Vikings backed off a bit while they figured out exactly how different the offense would be once Mitch was out.

It’s fairly common for a backup to do well when not gameplanned for and then sink when teams know prior that they are the starter.

This right here. Squared.

[wab]

I am sure someone will rip me for this but, Chase with this D brings to mind the Ravens and Dilfer...it was Dilfer right? lol

Not really, Dilfer was a failed first round pick with a lot of starter experience. He was signed to be a back up after failing as a starter. He did ok but was carried by the 2nd best defense ever and a grinding running attack. Which was good because of dilfers tendencies to throw interceptions.

Chase was drafted as a limited backup who has value because of his knowledge in the offense after so many years as a backup in it. His physical tools are much poorer than Dilfers were imo, but he may have better mental tools. This offense needs more from chase than the ravens did from Dilfer due to its style and difficulty in running the football. Chase also seems much more risk adverse than Dilfer proved to ever be as he doesn’t turn it over given the limited sample size.

Other than both teams having great defenses and injured starting qbs there isn’t a lot of similarity.

Chase wasn't drafted. At the time, he was considered too short and had limited arm strength. He also has small hands. He was, and still is, fairly athletic. Not Mitch athletic, but he can buy time in the pocket. Dude rushed for over 1000 yards at Missouri.

The issue is, unlike other shorter QB's like Brees, Baker, Russell Wilson, and Kyler Murray...he doesn't have a big enough arm. Those other dudes can drill passes through limited visibility in throwing lanes. They see a WR flash and let it rip. Daniel can't, so he can't wing it in there as the lane closes. And when he tries, it's usually tipped and/or picked. What he does have though is really good accuracy and touch.

While the offense gets scaled back for Mitch at times while he learns, the offense also gets scaled back for Chase for different reasons that are due to his physical limitations.

He's an excellent backup for this offense, and I'd be comfortable with him starting 4-6 games, but that's about it.

[EricTighe]

Is it just me or did we run a lot more slants with Chase in the game?
I heard Chris Carter talk about it long ago. Sometimes because the starting Qb has a better arm and more athletic ability offenive coordinators try to prove to everyone how smart they are. Then when the back-up comes in they simplify the offense and the back up looks better. Lets see what happens to chase when they take away the short pass like thye did to him last year,

He is 2-2 as a starter in his career according to this.
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/ ... niCh00.htm

I still believe we should be drafting a QB every year to learn this system.

But

In TRUBISKY I trust!

[EricTighe]

One more thought maybe Nagy should call the same plays he calls for Chase for Trubisky then maybe we will see the kid we are supposed to see. Which is still the best QB we have had since McMahon.

[southdakbearfan]

One more thought maybe Nagy should call the same plays he calls for Chase for Trubisky then maybe we will see the kid we are supposed to see. Which is still the best QB we have had since McMahon.

Maybe not all the same but I think there should be a lot more similarity than there seems to be.

Sometimes I think he gets stuck in trying to score a td every play for the first drive or two vs moving the chains when calling pass plays.

[The Marshall Plan]

One more thought maybe Nagy should call the same plays he calls for Chase for Trubisky then maybe we will see the kid we are supposed to see. Which is still the best QB we have had since McMahon.

Are you implying that Biscuit is better than Smokin' Jay?

[Mikefive]

Are the Bears better off with Chase Daniel over Mitchell Trubisky?

[wab]

Are the Bears better off with Chase Daniel over Mitchell Trubisky?

no

[Boris13c]

Are the Bears better off with Chase Daniel over Mitchell Trubisky?

why are so many of these guys who were complete failures in their playing days now the "informed experts" we are supposed to listen to?

Chris Simms is a dolt and a reject ... and there is no way the Bears are better with Daniel than Trubisky and no way Daniel replaces Trubisky even when Mitch is healthy enough to play

this is just misguided media members looking for something to stir up

[southdakbearfan]

Are the Bears better off with Chase Daniel over Mitchell Trubisky?

why are so many of these guys who were complete failures in their playing days now the "informed experts" we are supposed to listen to?

Chris Simms is a dolt and a reject ... and there is no way the Bears are better with Daniel than Trubisky and no way Daniel replaces Trubisky even when Mitch is healthy enough to play

this is just misguided media members looking for something to stir up

They need jobs and to stay relevant because they blew all their money on blow and hoes?

[Bears Whiskey Nut]

Are the Bears better off with Chase Daniel over Mitchell Trubisky?

No. Chase Daniel has four NFL starts for a reason. He makes the right reads, and will throw the ball to the right receiver. He is not dynamic, he doesn't have the arm talent that Mitch has, and he has almost no ability to extend a play with his feet.