Mitch Trubisky & General Quarterback Banter

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BR0D1E86 wrote: Thu Sep 26, 2019 10:20 pm I want to be clear I’m not writing him off, but I’d say I’m getting significantly more confident that he’s never going to be even remotely adjacent to an elite quarterback. He’s got basically the same weaknesses he has as a rookie. He just has a better coach and is surrounded by one of the best skill position groups in the NFL.
Is 32, 12, 18, 17, 80 and 29 really "one of the best skill position groups in the NFL"? I guess that's it's own topic.
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Some of those Gabriel overthrows are on Gabriel. When I used to coach flag football, the hardest thing to get the WR's to do was run through the catch, not stop, plant, turn around and high-point the catch. I've seen Gabriel do that a few times and it drives me nuts.
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wab wrote: Thu Sep 26, 2019 11:25 am Sometimes I don't know how to feel about a fan base who's most beloved QB was Kyle Orton.
I think you should pity them for the franchise they’ve had to live with.



Most people’s memories only go so far back.

In the last 20 years,
• Orton had a career rating in the low 80s. Although that was pulled down significantly by 1 awful rookie year. Aside from that, he was a high 80s type guy.
• Cutler had a career rating in the high 80s.
• Mitch currently has a career rating in the high 80s.
(Brian Hoyer had better numbers, but only 5 Bear starts)
(Josh McCown had better numbers, but only 7 Bear starts)

Orton has the benefit of being the longest ago, so passing rules weren’t quite as cushy and numbers weren’t as high then.
Orton also has the benefit of coming cheaply and being a pleasant surprise, whereas Cutler was expensive and greatly failed to meet expectations, and Mitch was expensive and is currently faltering on expectations.

Orton isn’t “the obvious choice” or anything, but there’s nothing at all unreasonable about him being your favorite out of that pack.
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UOK wrote: Wed Sep 25, 2019 10:49 am
wab wrote: Wed Sep 25, 2019 10:41 am
He's not Mahomes - or doing what Mahomes does - so he's basically no good.
I think a lot more of the dopey fans would fall in love with Trubisky if he was kind of an Andrew Shaw character, total cartoon swaggering shithead. They'd forgive the picks and stuff because "he's got the fire."

Alternatively, Trubisky would be just as beloved if he was a 5th or 6th round pick who worked his way up from nothing and supplanted an elite, highly paid quarterback. Fans sometimes just have it in for anyone of prestige, as if they're upset that the face of their "blue collar" franchise doesn't represent them, the couch-sitting fatass.

Plus some fans would always rather be right than the Bears be good.
While I’m not saying there’s no truth to those things – fans like swagger and fans like underdog stories –
what I think would really improve Trubisky’s popularity far more would be if he wasn’t in year 3, the 30th ranked passer in a 32 team league, and not showing any areas of (year over year) improvement so far into 2019 at all.
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I’m still willing to reserve judgement a little while longer, because I think sitting the offense all preseason was an incredibly poor decision. But that excuse is only going to last a few more games. If the situation is unchanged by the second half of the season, it’s time to start sharpening the pitchfork.
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I think Mitch needs to take another step forward against the Vikes this week and if he isn't consistently looking good to elite for long periods in games by week 10 then it's pitchforks time!!!
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Mikefive wrote: Fri Sep 27, 2019 2:34 pm
BR0D1E86 wrote: Thu Sep 26, 2019 10:20 pm I want to be clear I’m not writing him off, but I’d say I’m getting significantly more confident that he’s never going to be even remotely adjacent to an elite quarterback. He’s got basically the same weaknesses he has as a rookie. He just has a better coach and is surrounded by one of the best skill position groups in the NFL.
Is 32, 12, 18, 17, 80 and 29 really "one of the best skill position groups in the NFL"? I guess that's it's own topic.
Coming into the season there were several articles rating the Bears as having the best wide receiver group in the NFL. Montgomery has been damned impressive, and I still view Cohen as a difference maker.

I won’t argue that it’s the best, but I’ll be damned if it isn’t one of the better groups.
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I must say... I really appreciate how you took part of a thread and made another thread out of it, leaving the rest of the original thread intact. That's some pretty cool functionality that I never had back in the day when I was a mod. :thumbsup:
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Thinking about this Biscuit stuff further...

This harkens me back to the days when I moved to Denver the year they drafted Elway. Years 1 and 2, he had the physical gifts, but it was much like we see from Biscuit now, locking onto his first read, with a lot of running around and improv stuff. But keep him in the pocket and Denver was ripe for the taking. He improved some in year 3. But it was year 4 when he matured into a quality NFL QB. And he was a 3 or 4 year starter at Stanford coming out and had the same offensive minded head coach for those first 4 pro years. And there was a lot of talk about Elway just like the debates going on here and now.

In contrast, Biscuit started just one year at NC and has had to play for 2 different coaching staffs in the pros so far.

I'm not saying Biscuit is Elway, but they are similar in size and the way they buy time by running around and still look to throw it most of the time. There indeed are a number of stories of guys who became top QBs who struggled for years before the light came on for them. Considering that and his experience up to now, I think it's really hasty to expect much from Biscuit even this year or be ready to declare him a bust and want to move on.

Mitch is what he is. A guy with unusually light college experience, who is trying to figure out the pro game, but it's just not slowing down for him yet. I don't like giving too much credence to the excuse about Nagy's offense being so complex. It's Nagy's job to give Mitch what he can handle and there's reason to believe he's not dumping the whole playbook on him. At least not during the season.
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IE wrote: Fri Sep 27, 2019 1:39 pm Mitch seems like a good guy - he's quite likable. It is obvious the team likes him, and that is important if he needs to develop further (which is something everyone seems to agree). I personally think he's good enough right now IF Nagy doesn't hang him out there like a pinata to be beaten. Superbowls have been won by lesser and equal QBs. Was Eli ever really better than Mitch right now?

The biggest thing I'd like to see him improve is his accuracy when he isn't throwing short & quick. Gabriel made a good adjustment and catch and was SUPER LUCKY that his foot accidentally hit the pylon - but that ball was certainly not perfectly placed. 10 may need a LOT of reps before he can hit a receiver on a line in any reasonable stride, versus overthrowing or making them come back and engage a DB to fight for the ball after being wide open. Perhaps that is a gap from him having limited starts & reps going back to college. I know Ragone has been working with him on his launch angle, and using a golfing analogy about situational shots and using the "right iron". But it is possible he never develops that consistently. If that is the case, it is nice to have a stable like Robinson, Miller, Wims and Ridley who can "go get them" versus a bunch of speedsters he may never be able to take advantage of having.

My beef is not with 10 but with Nagy. We don't know if 10 is going to improve , or not. It is not a safe assumption he will just because others have. I know Nagy has a plan and a vision for how he wants to play and win. I'm HOPING that Nagy can work better with what he has - which in my mind, is enough.
This gets me going a bit. When Mitch hits a great play it’s super lucky stuff. How about the kid hit a throw where he put a ball that only his receiver could catch it, while on the run extending a play that wouldn’t have happened if he didn’t have all the tools.

It’s either that or the old well if you take out this play or if the defense would have picked off this pass argument stuff.

It is what it is. He is developing and had a good year last year and we all want him to take that next step. The next step might be this weekend or next year
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Mikefive wrote: Fri Sep 27, 2019 2:34 pm
BR0D1E86 wrote: Thu Sep 26, 2019 10:20 pm I want to be clear I’m not writing him off, but I’d say I’m getting significantly more confident that he’s never going to be even remotely adjacent to an elite quarterback. He’s got basically the same weaknesses he has as a rookie. He just has a better coach and is surrounded by one of the best skill position groups in the NFL.
Is 32, 12, 18, 17, 80 and 29 really "one of the best skill position groups in the NFL"? I guess that's it's own topic.
This right here. We have one above average or good wr and a lot of other parts. Patterson can have a magical play, Gabriel is a midget, Miller is MIA, burton is dinged, Wims is all potential, Ridley is well idk because I couldn’t say if he has been on the field or not.

Not saying any of them are bad but we have a lot of parts or developing talent but not a lot of consistent talent.

All that being said they are 2 and 1 and nowhere near peaking or in sync on offense. Have some faith people.
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Moriarty wrote: Fri Sep 27, 2019 3:56 pm
wab wrote: Thu Sep 26, 2019 11:25 am Sometimes I don't know how to feel about a fan base who's most beloved QB was Kyle Orton.
I think you should pity them for the franchise they’ve had to live with.



Most people’s memories only go so far back.

In the last 20 years,
• Orton had a career rating in the low 80s. Although that was pulled down significantly by 1 awful rookie year. Aside from that, he was a high 80s type guy.
• Cutler had a career rating in the high 80s.
• Mitch currently has a career rating in the high 80s.
(Brian Hoyer had better numbers, but only 5 Bear starts)
(Josh McCown had better numbers, but only 7 Bear starts)
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southdakbearfan wrote: Sat Sep 28, 2019 12:26 am
IE wrote: Fri Sep 27, 2019 1:39 pm Mitch seems like a good guy - he's quite likable. It is obvious the team likes him, and that is important if he needs to develop further (which is something everyone seems to agree). I personally think he's good enough right now IF Nagy doesn't hang him out there like a pinata to be beaten. Superbowls have been won by lesser and equal QBs. Was Eli ever really better than Mitch right now?

The biggest thing I'd like to see him improve is his accuracy when he isn't throwing short & quick. Gabriel made a good adjustment and catch and was SUPER LUCKY that his foot accidentally hit the pylon - but that ball was certainly not perfectly placed. 10 may need a LOT of reps before he can hit a receiver on a line in any reasonable stride, versus overthrowing or making them come back and engage a DB to fight for the ball after being wide open. Perhaps that is a gap from him having limited starts & reps going back to college. I know Ragone has been working with him on his launch angle, and using a golfing analogy about situational shots and using the "right iron". But it is possible he never develops that consistently. If that is the case, it is nice to have a stable like Robinson, Miller, Wims and Ridley who can "go get them" versus a bunch of speedsters he may never be able to take advantage of having.

My beef is not with 10 but with Nagy. We don't know if 10 is going to improve , or not. It is not a safe assumption he will just because others have. I know Nagy has a plan and a vision for how he wants to play and win. I'm HOPING that Nagy can work better with what he has - which in my mind, is enough.
This gets me going a bit. When Mitch hits a great play it’s super lucky stuff. How about the kid hit a throw where he put a ball that only his receiver could catch it, while on the run extending a play that wouldn’t have happened if he didn’t have all the tools.

It’s either that or the old well if you take out this play or if the defense would have picked off this pass argument stuff.

It is what it is. He is developing and had a good year last year and we all want him to take that next step. The next step might be this weekend or next year
If you're going to expend energy to "get going", please at least read for context first. Go back and read all of what I wrote. Because you're reacting wrongly - as if I was using an example to attack 10. But I'm not. That pass you apparently think I'm dismissing was a great play by both he and 18. That comment in my post was a response to someone else posting that was an example of how he's accurate. It was not and he is not, and that is something he needs to get consistently better at if he is going to step up and better meet the high expectations that are out there for a #2 pick.

Accuracy is tough to argue because it doesn't equate to completions. A QB can possess decent stats by being bailed out by other good athletes or coaches calling a game to protect them. There is a lot of "eye test" to it. I'll change my mind on 10 when I see him hit more guys in stride or "throwing a guy open".

A lot of people are saying other people should relax. I'll say that should include the folks who consider any point of criticism a wholesale dismissal of a player... that's an over-reaction as well, and plain silliness. I can support the hell out of 10 and still declare that I wish he was more accurate to get some more completions but more importantly more OUT of his completions.
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just because Trubisky isn't Mahomes doesn't mean he sucks ... but the Bears did trade up to draft him, so the comparisons to Mahomes, who was drafted later, will continue whether it is reasonable to do so or not

the Bears can, and will, win with Trubisky as they grow along with him over the next few seasons ... then this will become one of those threads 10 years from now we come back to and laugh at some of the misguided thoughts
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There are of course a number of reasons why Bears fans are antsy about Trubisky's so far lacklustre performance, ranging from passing on the reigning league MVP to select him to having a great defense that is ready to compete for a Super Bowl.

However, I can't help but wonder how much of Trubisky's issues stem from Matt Nagy. I love Nagy as a head coach; I'm not really enamoured with him as the offensive play caller, at least not so far. I can't help feeling he's trying to achieve his vision without first laying a solid foundation.

The running game is the most obvious example. A successful running game is a quarterback's best friend, especially a young quarterback. We saw times last year where Nagy simply didn't commit to it, including the playoff loss to the Eagles, or gave up on it at crucial times. Through the first 12 weeks of the season the Bears rarely got the run game going.

So much was made of Jordan Howard not being the right fit for Nagy's offense being the reason, despite the fact that Howard is a good player. Indeed, in the 5 games prior to that playoff defeat he was averaging 17.5 carries and 80 rushing yards a game at 4.5 ypc and he scored 4 TDs. He finished the regular season with his best game of the year, a 109 yard , 5.3 ypc, 2 TD effort against the Vikings. Against the Eagles he got just 10 carries and Nagy never got him into a rhythm with his constant swapping him in and out of the line up.

Howard gets shipped off and they bring in Davis and hand pick Montgomery, yet the running game continues to struggle outside of a couple of big plays by the WRs. Meanwhile in Philadelphia, who run a similar offense, Howard is averaging 4.6 ypc and has scored 4 TDs whilst sharing backfield duties. He also contributes in the passing game, not just with a catch or two a game but with his excellent blocking. I can't help but wonder how much the latter would be helping Trubisky out right now.

But this isn't about Howard; it's about the run game in general. I brought up Howard in part because I watched the Thursday Night game in which he starred. What stood out though was how the Packers continue to struggle against the run.

The Eagles had 176 yards rushing, with Howard and Sanders getting the bulk of them on 26 carries whilst averaging 5.8 ypc and 6.5 ypc respectively. In Week 3 the Broncos managed 149 yards rushing with Lindsay and Royce getting all but 5 of those yards on their 36 carries. In Week 2 the Vikings ran for 198 yards with Cook getting 154 yards on 20 carries, an astonishing 7.7 ypc, and Mattison adding another 25 yards on just 4 carries.

In Week 1 the Bears managed a paltry 46 yards rushing against the Packers, with their two RBs getting just 11 carries.

In Week 1 last year they had 139 yards rushing against the Packers, with Howard and Cohen getting 107 of those on 20 carries. In Week 15 they had 100 yards rushing. It's not as if the way to be successful against the Packers defense isn't obvious. Yet Nagy had or allowed a clearly struggling Trubisky to throw the ball 45 times in a 10 -3 game in a performance that killed all of the optimism that abounded about this offense in 'Year 2'. Rather than build Trubisky's confidence it must have had the opposite effect.

Nagy's continued inability to get the ground game going despite the personnel changes is a major red flag for me. I don't see opposing defenses worrying too much about it and as a result receivers do not appear to be getting as open as often as they seem to do for successful offenses, leaving Trubisky too often throwing into tight coverage.

Hopefully we're seeing signs that Nagy is adapting his thinking, but if we're criticising Trubisky for not taking a big step forward in Year 2 of this offense I think it's fair to criticise Nagy for the same thing. If Nagy can get the run game figured out, and he has a heck of a good-looking player in Montgomery, then I can see him and Trubisky getting synchronised and this offense having that 'explosion' the players keep talking about happening. Otherwise it's going to be a long and frustrating season of close games where we have to hope the defense will continue to work their magic.
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Some of his Kyle Long stuff had me cracking up.
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Moriarty wrote: Fri Sep 27, 2019 3:56 pm Orton isn’t “the obvious choice” or anything, but there’s nothing at all unreasonable about him being your favorite out of that pack.
Not directed at you specifically, but this is why I hate sects of our fanbase.
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southdakbearfan wrote: Sat Sep 28, 2019 12:26 am
IE wrote: Fri Sep 27, 2019 1:39 pm Mitch seems like a good guy - he's quite likable. It is obvious the team likes him, and that is important if he needs to develop further (which is something everyone seems to agree). I personally think he's good enough right now IF Nagy doesn't hang him out there like a pinata to be beaten. Superbowls have been won by lesser and equal QBs. Was Eli ever really better than Mitch right now?

The biggest thing I'd like to see him improve is his accuracy when he isn't throwing short & quick. Gabriel made a good adjustment and catch and was SUPER LUCKY that his foot accidentally hit the pylon - but that ball was certainly not perfectly placed. 10 may need a LOT of reps before he can hit a receiver on a line in any reasonable stride, versus overthrowing or making them come back and engage a DB to fight for the ball after being wide open. Perhaps that is a gap from him having limited starts & reps going back to college. I know Ragone has been working with him on his launch angle, and using a golfing analogy about situational shots and using the "right iron". But it is possible he never develops that consistently. If that is the case, it is nice to have a stable like Robinson, Miller, Wims and Ridley who can "go get them" versus a bunch of speedsters he may never be able to take advantage of having.

My beef is not with 10 but with Nagy. We don't know if 10 is going to improve , or not. It is not a safe assumption he will just because others have. I know Nagy has a plan and a vision for how he wants to play and win. I'm HOPING that Nagy can work better with what he has - which in my mind, is enough.
This gets me going a bit. When Mitch hits a great play it’s super lucky stuff. How about the kid hit a throw where he put a ball that only his receiver could catch it, while on the run extending a play that wouldn’t have happened if he didn’t have all the tools.

It’s either that or the old well if you take out this play or if the defense would have picked off this pass argument stuff.

It is what it is. He is developing and had a good year last year and we all want him to take that next step. The next step might be this weekend or next year
Agreed. To harp on that throw, to me, is preposterous. It was fucking elite.
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AZ_Bearfan wrote: Sun Sep 29, 2019 11:25 am

Some of his Kyle Long stuff had me cracking up.
Similarly, some of his defenses for inaccurate throws were a little odd. Like one that was two feet about Gabriel’s head and he was criticizing him for not catching it. And Anthony Miller down the sideline it was simply an overthrow. Not a huge overthrow, but it wasn’t really a catchable ball and he’s hammering the receiver for not making a borderline impossible catch.
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G08 wrote: Sun Sep 29, 2019 1:26 pm
southdakbearfan wrote: Sat Sep 28, 2019 12:26 am

This gets me going a bit. When Mitch hits a great play it’s super lucky stuff. How about the kid hit a throw where he put a ball that only his receiver could catch it, while on the run extending a play that wouldn’t have happened if he didn’t have all the tools.

It’s either that or the old well if you take out this play or if the defense would have picked off this pass argument stuff.

It is what it is. He is developing and had a good year last year and we all want him to take that next step. The next step might be this weekend or next year
Agreed. To harp on that throw, to me, is preposterous. It was fucking elite.
I agree, it showed tremendous pocket awareness, it was an accurate throw, and for as good of a throw as it was, it was an even better catch.. It was a great play all around.
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Will update this with the severity and details once known. Guessing he’s missing some serious time.
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Best case it’s an ac sprain I would say.

Chase is ok, but the offense shrinks the more he plays due to no arm.
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Per twitter and the San Diego Tribune:

Bears quarterback Mitch Trubisky was stripped of the ball on a scramble early in Sunday’s game against the Vikings and landed on his outstretched left arm.

By video, he suffered a dislocated left shoulder. It appears the shoulder may have self-reduced as he was helped up while avoiding use of the left arm

He was taken into the blue medical tent and then walked into the locker room for X-rays which should be negative.

The bone should be intact, but the labrum is likely torn.

Typically, this means surgery. But since it is Trubisky’s non-throwing shoulder, surgery can wait. He can play with a shoulder strap/harness. If it were his throwing shoulder his season would be done. (Blaine Gabbert similarly dislocated his non-throwing shoulder and was ultimately put on injured reserve by the Buccaneers.)

Even though he can play, an acute dislocation is quite painful and the risk of re-dislocation would be very high if he were to return Sunday. Indeed, Trubisky was ruled out today. He likely will miss the next week and possibly two. The Bears have put the rest of the game and likely more in Chase Daniel’s hands.
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its always the fucking vikings injuring mitch! at least we have the bye after the raiders in London.
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I don't think the offense will shrink any more than it was currently with Mitch in there. Daniel is not athletic and this OL really hampers what can be done, but he can manage the game. With this D, score 17 and you are pretty good.
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Daniel is more consistent with his play, but offers much less in any kind of dynamic throw. Mitch can throw any pass, but is terribly inconsistent/erratic at times.
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If he tore the labrum, and possibly part of the rotator cuff, he will need surgery. Can he play the rest of the season? Sure. But you will take an already shaky QB, and add acute pain to his non-throwing shoulder. That in combination with not wanting to get hit, or fall on it again, will reduce him to a skitterish mess in the pocket (more so than he already is). The Bears have a generational level defense at their disposal. Pace needs to be smart, and not fuck this up, just to protect his draft pick decision three years ago.
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I guess we don’t have to worry about Mitch destroying the Bears super bowl chances now.
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