Mitch Trubisky & General Quarterback Banter

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The Grizzly One
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Re: Mitch Trubisky & General Quarterback Banter

Fri Mar 27, 2020 3:13 pm

Put me in the Foles camp. Basically that is. I feel Biscuit will start the first couple of games or so, but maybe not finish. If the Bears are losing game one, with the offense sputtering, Foles will relieve him.

Lets just say Foles rallies the offense and the Bears win. I still think Trubisky still starts game two but with a very short lease.

Even if he plays well game two, the lease remains short and he starts only if he plays well and shows promise.

Otherwise Foles starts and we see what happens. Can he be the QB that has shown much? Or the one that has shown not so much?

Honestly I would love Biscuit to finally live up to potential, but I really don't see it happening.

Any bet here I pass. But a gun to my head? I quickly choose Foles.
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Re: Mitch Trubisky & General Quarterback Banter

Fri Mar 27, 2020 3:31 pm

By the time the season rolls around I'll be able to convince myself that whoever is starting is going to work out. Either a real competition will wake Trubisky up, or Foles is actually magic in this offense.

Either way, the quarterback room is better than it was last season.
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Re: Mitch Trubisky & General Quarterback Banter

Fri Mar 27, 2020 4:32 pm

dplank wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 2:34 pm
Butt fumble. Never even touched. And this play was immediately after he missed a WIDE OPEN TD which would have sealed the game.

You really don't see 70 bump into him?
Image

First 41 starts:

Drew Brees: 61.2% | 8261 yards | 52 TDs | 37 INTs | 6.60 YPA | 82.2

Mitch Trubisky: 63.4% | 8554 yards | 48 TDs | 29 INTs | 6.7 YPA | 85.8
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Re: Mitch Trubisky & General Quarterback Banter

Fri Mar 27, 2020 5:17 pm

G08 wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 4:32 pm
dplank wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 2:34 pm
Butt fumble. Never even touched. And this play was immediately after he missed a WIDE OPEN TD which would have sealed the game.

You really don't see 70 bump into him?
No
Chuck Pagano's defensive rankings in 6 years with Indy: 26th, 20th, 11th, 26th, 30th, and 30th.
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Re: Mitch Trubisky & General Quarterback Banter

Fri Mar 27, 2020 5:26 pm

@dplank

https://www.chargers.com/video/mitchell ... -territory

Between the 2 and 5 second window. Watch it and periodically hit pause. Leno bumps into him, Massie's right elbow hits Trubiksy's upper arm.
Image

First 41 starts:

Drew Brees: 61.2% | 8261 yards | 52 TDs | 37 INTs | 6.60 YPA | 82.2

Mitch Trubisky: 63.4% | 8554 yards | 48 TDs | 29 INTs | 6.7 YPA | 85.8
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Re: Mitch Trubisky & General Quarterback Banter

Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:12 pm

Yea I guess he grazes by him there, awfully weak fumble regardless
Chuck Pagano's defensive rankings in 6 years with Indy: 26th, 20th, 11th, 26th, 30th, and 30th.
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Re: Mitch Trubisky & General Quarterback Banter

Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:01 pm

dplank wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:12 pm
Yea I guess he grazes by him there, awfully weak fumble regardless
It sucked. I'd be more pissed if he didn't have two hands on the ball. Is what it is... still drove us down the field to win the game and our kicker blew it.

Leno holds his block and he's got Burton for 6 yards. The whole season was fucking annoying.
Image

First 41 starts:

Drew Brees: 61.2% | 8261 yards | 52 TDs | 37 INTs | 6.60 YPA | 82.2

Mitch Trubisky: 63.4% | 8554 yards | 48 TDs | 29 INTs | 6.7 YPA | 85.8
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Re: Mitch Trubisky & General Quarterback Banter

Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:24 pm

...and the play before he had Gabriel WIDE OPEN for a walk in TD and airmailed it 10 yards over his head. You can hear Aikman talking about it as they are lining up for the fumble play.

Dude sux...
Chuck Pagano's defensive rankings in 6 years with Indy: 26th, 20th, 11th, 26th, 30th, and 30th.
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Re: Mitch Trubisky & General Quarterback Banter

Fri Mar 27, 2020 11:56 pm

dplank wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:24 pm
...and the play before he had Gabriel WIDE OPEN for a walk in TD and airmailed it 10 yards over his head.
Truth.
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First 41 starts:

Drew Brees: 61.2% | 8261 yards | 52 TDs | 37 INTs | 6.60 YPA | 82.2

Mitch Trubisky: 63.4% | 8554 yards | 48 TDs | 29 INTs | 6.7 YPA | 85.8
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Re: Mitch Trubisky & General Quarterback Banter

Sat Mar 28, 2020 9:54 am

dplank wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 2:34 pm
Also, Mitch is the new butt fumble. He butt fumbled the Chargers game away in horrific fashion....

Butt fumble. Never even touched. And this play was immediately after he missed a WIDE OPEN TD which would have sealed the game.

Come on dplank, picking out one or two plays and using them to deride a QB is ridiculous. They all make mistakes and there isn't a QB in the league who doesn't have plays and throws that embarrass them.







Why not highlight all the times his teammates let Mitch down?

How about the multiple occasions where offensive linemen were beaten off the snap resulting in Trubisky getting hit even on 3 step drops?

How about the first downs that never were because receivers dropped passes?

What about the anaemic running game and all the penalties that kept putting the offense behind the chains?

Trubisky was only one part of the problem and frankly not the biggest one. The offense was a badly coached, ill-disciplined shambles last season. It will take a lot more than a change of quarterback to fix.
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Re: Mitch Trubisky & General Quarterback Banter

Sat Mar 28, 2020 10:43 am

lol...you're generally a good poster but this is weak stuff bud. I just pointed out one thing to make a point after someone else mentioned the butt fumble, by no means is it THE point. If Mitch has even 1/10 of the success Mahomes has had, OBVIOUSLY that would outweigh a butt fumble. Mitch sucked really bad last year, anyone who can't see that is either a) an utter moron or b) didn't watch football in 2019. The butt fumble wasn't even the worst play in that sequence, my main issue with Mitch is the play prior where he air mailed a WIDE OPEN TD to Gabriel - because he did that on the regular all season long.

One failing I have as a poster (among many) is that I too often skip over the blatantly obvious bits, assuming people will just know better. I open myself up for this sorta response that willfully missed an obvious point. I guess I need to stoop down a bit or risk this type of nonsense.

For example, an equally foolish take would be for me to respond asking you something like this:
HRH, are you REALLY comparing Mitch to Mahomes?
But, I don't do that, because it's obvious you aren't. Lead by example sir.
Chuck Pagano's defensive rankings in 6 years with Indy: 26th, 20th, 11th, 26th, 30th, and 30th.
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Re: Mitch Trubisky & General Quarterback Banter

Sat Mar 28, 2020 12:17 pm

Yes southdakatobearfan mentioned ‘Butt Fumble’ aka Mark Sanchez as well as Case Keenum in the context of pointing out that Foles was beaten out by less than stellar QBs during his stints with other teams.

But it was you who anointed Trubisky the ‘new butt fumble’, claiming he ‘fumbled away the Chargers game in horrific fashion’ whilst neglecting to mention his late game efforts that put the team in position to win with a very makeable field goal. Then in a later post you linked to the video of the incident you were referring to and mentioned the overthrow the play before.

All I did was illustrate that other QBs make similar mistakes, using examples of both an inexplicable fumble and a major overthrow from the next QB drafted after Trubisky, the one who is both a league and Super Bowl MVP, and the one that with hindsight we all wish Pace had selected.

I never made any comparison between the two QBs and therefore you are right that to suggest I did would be foolish. I merely pointed out that you can’t take isolated plays to illustrate a player’s failure any more than you can use his highlight reel to judge his talent. I thought this was blatantly obvious, but apparently you missed this point.

Now if you want to use multiple plays from across a season to argue that the ‘Dude sux’ then go right ahead. Perhaps you could collate all those season-long instances of Trubisky air-mailing wide open receivers for us? I'd be genuinely interested to have them all in one place to see how many there were.

My argument is that he was far from alone in sucking and a couple of pages back in this thread I illustrated exactly why with several typical examples of drive-ending series of downs where multiple players, including Trubisky, made mistakes.

It’s easy for fans to make the QB the scapegoat. I stand by my contention that the offense was a badly coached, ill-disciplined shambles that will take more than a change of quarterback to fix precisely because I did watch football in 2019 including reviewing the ‘coaches film’ of Bears games.
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Re: Mitch Trubisky & General Quarterback Banter

Sat Mar 28, 2020 2:09 pm

I merely pointed out that you can’t take isolated plays to illustrate a player’s failure any more than you can use his highlight reel to judge his talent.
...and I didn't do THAT....how can that not be super obvious? Even made a second post to explain it but it still went whistling over your head. Ego is a dangerous thing.

I got your M.O bro...never wrong or make a misstatement! Got it.
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Re: Mitch Trubisky & General Quarterback Banter

Sat Mar 28, 2020 2:11 pm

HisRoyalSweetness wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 12:17 pm
Yes southdakatobearfan mentioned ‘Butt Fumble’ aka Mark Sanchez as well as Case Keenum in the context of pointing out that Foles was beaten out by less than stellar QBs during his stints with other teams.

But it was you who anointed Trubisky the ‘new butt fumble’, claiming he ‘fumbled away the Chargers game in horrific fashion’ whilst neglecting to mention his late game efforts that put the team in position to win with a very makeable field goal. Then in a later post you linked to the video of the incident you were referring to and mentioned the overthrow the play before.

All I did was illustrate that other QBs make similar mistakes, using examples of both an inexplicable fumble and a major overthrow from the next QB drafted after Trubisky, the one who is both a league and Super Bowl MVP, and the one that with hindsight we all wish Pace had selected.

I never made any comparison between the two QBs and therefore you are right that to suggest I did would be foolish. I merely pointed out that you can’t take isolated plays to illustrate a player’s failure any more than you can use his highlight reel to judge his talent. I thought this was blatantly obvious, but apparently you missed this point.

Now if you want to use multiple plays from across a season to argue that the ‘Dude sux’ then go right ahead. Perhaps you could collate all those season-long instances of Trubisky air-mailing wide open receivers for us? I'd be genuinely interested to have them all in one place to see how many there were.

My argument is that he was far from alone in sucking and a couple of pages back in this thread I illustrated exactly why with several typical examples of drive-ending series of downs where multiple players, including Trubisky, made mistakes.

It’s easy for fans to make the QB the scapegoat. I stand by my contention that the offense was a badly coached, ill-disciplined shambles that will take more than a change of quarterback to fix precisely because I did watch football in 2019 including reviewing the ‘coaches film’ of Bears games.
Agreed.

It isn't like anyone here is claiming Mitch doesn't have warts.

But the degree people make out foles to be some sort of all star that was available is laughable.
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Re: Mitch Trubisky & General Quarterback Banter

Sat Mar 28, 2020 2:29 pm

dplank wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 2:26 pm
Yogi da Bear wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 2:18 pm
Personally, I think that people are deluded if they think this is going to be a straight up competition between Foles and Trubisky. The Bears still want Trubisky to succeed. Defilippo was brought in for that reason. Foles was brought in to push Mitchell and as insurance in case Mitchell craps down his leg like he did last year. If their respective performances are even remotely close, Mitchell's going to get the nod. The situation will be handled like the Titans handled Mariota/Tannehill last year.
Yea most likely. We'll know when camp starts if they are getting even practice time or not, if not then they are forcing Mitch and going to let him play a few games to see if he turns it around. He'll have a short leash in that case. If it's a real competition, I don't see Mitch winning, but you never know. Maybe 4th year is the charm? Lol...I can't imagine the leash a guy like Foles would get if he had a 27TD 2INT 119 QBR season AND a Super Bowl MVP under his belt here in Chicago. People still cling to Mitch and he's given them nothing at all.
It's irrational. I'll share my opinions. But I won't argue against desperate hope.

It's like going out here at springtime and hoping or even expecting that those daffodils that have been coming up the past 3 years are suddenly going to grow tulips just because we really want tulips.

That's what we're dealing with here. Over the winter, we can't "prove" tulips won't grow in the spring. And even if daffodils turn up, folks will blame the gardener. Or the fertilizer. Or claim that if we only had better buttercups the daffodils would certainly become tulips. Or the daffodils kinda looked like tulips if we go back and measure how tall they were and compare how similar they are on paper.

So the naysayers are just impatient or even ignorant - and might ruin the daffodils before they can become tulips. And the new bulbs we planted are no better than the daffodils because even though they've actually come up as tulips before they weren't the best tulips.
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Re: Mitch Trubisky & General Quarterback Banter

Sat Mar 28, 2020 3:26 pm

I'll take Mitch as a daffodil. Better than what we had. I mean Glennon was just fertilizer. I like daffodils more than tulips anyway. Besides, gophers eat all the tulips I plant but won't touch the daffodils. lol
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Re: Mitch Trubisky & General Quarterback Banter

Sat Mar 28, 2020 7:08 pm

southdakbearfan wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 2:11 pm
HisRoyalSweetness wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 12:17 pm
Yes southdakatobearfan mentioned ‘Butt Fumble’ aka Mark Sanchez as well as Case Keenum in the context of pointing out that Foles was beaten out by less than stellar QBs during his stints with other teams.

But it was you who anointed Trubisky the ‘new butt fumble’, claiming he ‘fumbled away the Chargers game in horrific fashion’ whilst neglecting to mention his late game efforts that put the team in position to win with a very makeable field goal. Then in a later post you linked to the video of the incident you were referring to and mentioned the overthrow the play before.

All I did was illustrate that other QBs make similar mistakes, using examples of both an inexplicable fumble and a major overthrow from the next QB drafted after Trubisky, the one who is both a league and Super Bowl MVP, and the one that with hindsight we all wish Pace had selected.

I never made any comparison between the two QBs and therefore you are right that to suggest I did would be foolish. I merely pointed out that you can’t take isolated plays to illustrate a player’s failure any more than you can use his highlight reel to judge his talent. I thought this was blatantly obvious, but apparently you missed this point.

Now if you want to use multiple plays from across a season to argue that the ‘Dude sux’ then go right ahead. Perhaps you could collate all those season-long instances of Trubisky air-mailing wide open receivers for us? I'd be genuinely interested to have them all in one place to see how many there were.

My argument is that he was far from alone in sucking and a couple of pages back in this thread I illustrated exactly why with several typical examples of drive-ending series of downs where multiple players, including Trubisky, made mistakes.

It’s easy for fans to make the QB the scapegoat. I stand by my contention that the offense was a badly coached, ill-disciplined shambles that will take more than a change of quarterback to fix precisely because I did watch football in 2019 including reviewing the ‘coaches film’ of Bears games.
Agreed.

It isn't like anyone here is claiming Mitch doesn't have warts.

But the degree people make out foles to be some sort of all star that was available is laughable.
I have yet to see a single person come on here and claim that Foles was an "all star". Please share where you've seen this, or perhaps you're projecting? What I HAVE seen, is a lot of people think he'll be better than Mitch. That's a very different thing.
Chuck Pagano's defensive rankings in 6 years with Indy: 26th, 20th, 11th, 26th, 30th, and 30th.
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Re: Mitch Trubisky & General Quarterback Banter

Sun Mar 29, 2020 8:56 am

dplank wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 7:08 pm
southdakbearfan wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 2:11 pm


Agreed.

It isn't like anyone here is claiming Mitch doesn't have warts.

But the degree people make out foles to be some sort of all star that was available is laughable.
I have yet to see a single person come on here and claim that Foles was an "all star". Please share where you've seen this, or perhaps you're projecting? What I HAVE seen, is a lot of people think he'll be better than Mitch. That's a very different thing.
My point would be that Foles has never been consistent. 1 good season, 1 - 5 game hot streak over 8 years sandwiched between seasons of muddling poor play and backup duties.

2 teams he was an unquestioned starter and 2 teams a backup - The eagles traded him for a 4th 1 season removed from his best year. The Rams released him at his request for nothing after stinking up the joint, the Chiefs let him walk in free agency after being a backup to Alex Smith, He paid the eagles 2 million to exercise his option to become a free agent 1 season removed from winning the superbowl after which the Jaguars signed him, The Jaguars traded him after benching him a total of 4 games into a fairly large contract and traded him.

The seasons prior to Foles being traded by the eagles he was narrowly outplayed by Mark Sanchez with the same exact personnel. He was outplayed by Case Keenum before being granted his release from the Rams and he was outplayed by Gardner Minshew III before being benched and then traded by the Jags.

Mitch hasn't been consistent either but he did show in 2018 he could be good/effective. His total QBR was 3rd in the league that season.

At the point where they are in their careers Mitch still has potential to develop. Foles is what he is, probably the top backup in the NFL. His history has shown he is more than likely a below average starter that 4 separate teams were more than willing to walk away from.

He could very well end up being better than Mitch but Mitch has better athletic talent and untapped potential at this point and also has 1 very good season under his belt.

Anyway, I believe Mitch will be given every chance to win the starting job and if he fails Foles will be put in. I would say it's 50/50 as to which one starts.

I believe if you put foles onto last seasons team he would have lasted about 3-4 games before getting injured due to the porous offensive line, lack of a running game and zero tight end production.
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Re: Mitch Trubisky & General Quarterback Banter

Sun Mar 29, 2020 10:34 am

That's a better take, but could have been made without making up stuff that other people said. There's still honest disagreement here though:

1. Jacksonville didn't "bench him a total of 4 games into a contract". That's just factually incorrect and a point I've heard made mistakenly a few times. Foles won the job coming out of camp, then broke his collarbone in the first game and was out until Week 15. By time he was healthy, he was "Wally Pipp'd" by Minshew Mania. The Jags saw an opportunity in the offseason to shed a big contract when they got lucky on Minshew as a cheaper "rookie contract" alternative. Foles never had a chance b/c of the injury, he literally didn't play a single full game before Minshew took that job - we'll never know how he would have done. His mop up duty the last 3 weeks were meaningless, it was Minshew's job by then. Just the year prior, the Jags backed up a dump truck of cash for him to be their guy - they saw something obviously just like we do.

2. The claim that Mitch has untapped potential but Foles has hit his ceiling is simply wrong. First, Mitch is coming into his 4th friggin year, 3rd in the same system. Excuse time for him ended a year ago, I don't give a crap anymore how inexperienced he was coming out of college. He may still get better, but the odds are extremely high at this point that this is just who he is. It's rare someone turns it around this late into their career. It happens, but I wouldn't bet on it. And Foles has plenty of potential! He was finally getting his starting gig to himself in Jax when the injury hit, now he is coming back to an offense that's very friendly to his skills. So his "potential" is a return to his best years when he played in this type of system.

3. It's an intellectually dishonest argument to point to Mitch's one and only statistical positive 2018, which is still HIGHLY suspect when all the variables are considered (we can discuss separately if you wish), and at the same time disregard Foles best statistical years. Like, it's completely bogus analysis doing stuff like that. You wanna take Mitch's best year? Fine, then take Foles best year and compare them - 27TD 2INT 119 QBR. But what you are trying to do is take Mitch's best and compare it to Foles worst. I don't understand why, it really doesn't shed light on anything at all.

Despite all this we come to the same conclusion. I think it's a toss up for who starts day 1, I think it's 70-80% likely that Foles is the starter by Week 4, simply because he's the better passer. Meaning, I give Mitch about a 20% chance roughly of outplaying Foles and keeping the job.

It doesn't bother me at all when folks think Mitch can still be the guy, or when folks think Foles sux...not at all, I disagree but really who cares? There's fair points on both sides, I just think Foles has a better track record and is a better fit for our offense. I don't like dishonest discussion / spin / strawmanning to "win" an argument though. I tend to get a little worked up when I see that kinda stuff.
Chuck Pagano's defensive rankings in 6 years with Indy: 26th, 20th, 11th, 26th, 30th, and 30th.
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Re: Mitch Trubisky & General Quarterback Banter

Sun Mar 29, 2020 10:38 am

An excellent run down of the crazy career of Nick Foles so far...

Chuck Pagano's defensive rankings in 6 years with Indy: 26th, 20th, 11th, 26th, 30th, and 30th.
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Re: Mitch Trubisky & General Quarterback Banter

Sun Mar 29, 2020 12:53 pm

I'm not really interested in getting in the middle of this argument, but one thing you said DP really grinds my gears:

"It's rare someone turns it around this late in their career."

BULLSHIT! A four year development cycle used to be the NORM for quarterbacks. You can go throughout history and see that this is so. Ever hear of Aaron Rodgers, Terry Bradshaw, or Kurt Warner, just off the top of my head. I don't care about your argument of who's better between Foles and Trubisky but to say that Mitchell has reached the apex of his development is a load of crap.
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Re: Mitch Trubisky & General Quarterback Banter

Sun Mar 29, 2020 1:36 pm

Yogi da Bear wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 12:53 pm
I'm not really interested in getting in the middle of this argument, but one thing you said DP really grinds my gears:

"It's rare someone turns it around this late in their career."

BULLSHIT! A four year development cycle used to be the NORM for quarterbacks. You can go throughout history and see that this is so. Ever hear of Aaron Rodgers, Terry Bradshaw, or Kurt Warner, just off the top of my head. I don't care about your argument of who's better between Foles and Trubisky but to say that Mitchell has reached the apex of his development is a load of crap.
I disagree 100%. I also never said that he reached any apex. I just think that he's most likely "who he is" at this point, he will likely still improve some but is unlikely to ever become a really good NFL qb. One of the words you used is important "used to be the norm for quarterbacks"....used to be. Not true any longer. If we were having this debate in the 90's I'd agree. And even then, I never said no one did it, just that it was uncommon. For every Kurt Warner, there's 10 Akili Smith's. Those are just the odds Mitch was facing regardless of anything else, that's a simple verifiable reality. Most drafted QB's don't turn into very good NFL QB's simply as a basic statistical fact. So when one shows me over and over again that he kinda sucks? I tend to believe he'll end up in that category that most drafted QB's end up in. I'm still leaving a generous 20% ish possibility that he bucks that trend - in part because I really like the kid and his work ethic.

I also happen to believe, strongly, that future stars typically flash that talent very early on in their careers. It may be a little choppy, but their talent usually pops in an obvious manner even before they become well rounded pro's. We simply haven't seen this from Mitch, even in 2018 where he greatly benefitted from a historic defense + Nagy redzone'ing the shit out of the NFL - setting him up for a much higher TD/INT ratio than his play actually warranted. And that was really exposed last year, when the league caught up with Nagy and realized that if you make Mitch stay in the pocket his erratic arm and reads will doom him - they were right. In his third year where he was supposed to make major strides, he completely shit the bed. I tend to believe what I see until there's a reason not to.
Last edited by dplank on Sun Mar 29, 2020 1:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Mitch Trubisky & General Quarterback Banter

Sun Mar 29, 2020 1:46 pm

IE wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 2:25 pm
Don't confuse "amiable personality and saying the right things" with "intangibles".

10 was ALL tangibles / measurables plus "really nice guy - we like having dinner with him" - he just had no history of top level experience or demonstrated success.

This is "intangibles":
- Random, nit-picking critics speaking: "... but this guy isn't super-accurate, can't make all the throws like a prototype roboQB... and he might be a little surly at times"
- Actual performance speaking" "but he keeps on demonstrating leadership, showing poise at almost all times, and consistently has success at the highest level"

That's simply not true.

"Personality" and "intangibles" may not be equivalent, interchangeable terms, but "personality" is absolutely a huge part of "intangibles".

"Intangibles" encompasses a wide number of very diverse traits. That's the whole point of having a catch-all term for these traits. If "intangibles" just meant "won a lot in college", "you could just say "won a lot in college" and not need a special term for it.

I think probably a good definition would be that anything which can't be known by watching game film or positional drills or quantified in a stat line or combine measurements is an intangible.

Spends a lot of time studying film or not much is an intangible
Loves football or isn't that dedicated to it is an intangible
Runs with a bad crowd or has a stable support system is an intangible
Is or isn't coachable is an intangible
Maturity level is an intangible
Locker room leader or unpopular is an intangible

(Different evaluators will value and assess traits differently. One evaluator might look at a prospect and say they love his confidence, while another might say he's arrogant and cocky. One might say a guy has ice water in his veins, while another might say he's aloof and detached. That's what happens when you're talking about traits that can't be quantified - opinions will vary.)
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Yogi da Bear
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Re: Mitch Trubisky & General Quarterback Banter

Sun Mar 29, 2020 3:39 pm

dplank wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 1:36 pm
I disagree 100%. I also never said that he reached any apex. I just think that he's most likely "who he is" at this point, he will likely still improve some but is unlikely to ever become a really good NFL qb. One of the words you used is important "used to be the norm for quarterbacks"....used to be. Not true any longer. If we were having this debate in the 90's I'd agree. And even then, I never said no one did it, just that it was uncommon. For every Kurt Warner, there's 10 Akili Smith's. Those are just the odds Mitch was facing regardless of anything else, that's a simple verifiable reality. Most drafted QB's don't turn into very good NFL QB's simply as a basic statistical fact. So when one shows me over and over again that he kinda sucks? I tend to believe he'll end up in that category that most drafted QB's end up in. I'm still leaving a generous 20% ish possibility that he bucks that trend - in part because I really like the kid and his work ethic.

I also happen to believe, strongly, that future stars typically flash that talent very early on in their careers. It may be a little choppy, but their talent usually pops in an obvious manner even before they become well rounded pro's. We simply haven't seen this from Mitch, even in 2018 where he greatly benefitted from a historic defense + Nagy redzone'ing the shit out of the NFL - setting him up for a much higher TD/INT ratio than his play actually warranted. And that was really exposed last year, when the league caught up with Nagy and realized that if you make Mitch stay in the pocket his erratic arm and reads will doom him - they were right. In his third year where he was supposed to make major strides, he completely shit the bed. I tend to believe what I see until there's a reason not to.
Again, I have to call BULL on all levels.

First, there are plenty of QBs who have shown marked improvement after four years in the league, even today. Hell, Green Bay was so concerned about Aaron Rodgers two years in that they drafted Brian Brohm in the second and Matt Flynn in the seventh two years later. And Rodgers played two years in college in a high volume passing attack. Mitch started one year. Other recent QBs who have blossomed after a few years: Alex Smith, Ryan Tannehill, and Jimmy Garoppolo just off the top of my head.

Second, to say that Mitchell Trubisky hasn't "shown flashes" and "completely shit the bed last year" Is simply hyperbole based in blatant bias. Mitchell had at least four really good games last year: Washington (then got hurt), Detroit twice, and Dallas. And how many times has Mitch come through in crunch time to either win or only lose because of a missed field goal? That crunch time play is hard to teach. You want to steal credit from Mitch for what he's done well and give it to Nagy, but you don't want to even try to understand the difficulties he's faced: absolute crap line play last year, injuries throughout his career, and completely abysmal TE play in an offense geared around the TE. This just exposes your obvious bias.

Finally, I'm a firm believer in improvement through hard work, particular if somebody has the natural talent and physical tools. And Mitchell obviously has those. I think his biggest problems stem from him tightening up. You can see it, and he starts thinking too much and his technique goes to shit. I'm hoping that hard work with DeFilippo this offseason will make his fundamentals become second nature so that he's not thinking about it during games and is able to focus entirely on reading the field and simply making the throw (rather than guiding it which is what he seems to do at times).

Look. I understand. You wanted Watson, you're pissed. I wanted Mahomes, but I'm not willing to write off our possible franchise QB just yet. You really should be more objective in your appraisal. To say that Mitchell completely shit the bed and hasn't shown anything at all is not even close to a fair appraisal.
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dplank
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Re: Mitch Trubisky & General Quarterback Banter

Sun Mar 29, 2020 4:05 pm

Dude, he was the 3rd worst starting QB in the NFL last year according to any non biased, meaningful measure + that's basically a matched opinion coming from the national media/writers. I call that shitting the bed. It's not an outlier thought based on bias, it's the mainstream opinion held by most people outside of Bears fans where there's a more even split. I'd argue the "pro Mitch" take is the biased one, you don't hear a lot of non-bears fans sticking up for the guy, do you?

I don't know what you saw, but I saw garbage way more often than not. When I say "flash", I don't mean a good game here or there, anyone is capable of that given enough tries. I'm talking about something he does that just pops off the screen and makes you take notice, great plays where he does something incredible and stands out against his competition in some way. Outside of a couple nice scrambles, I just haven't seen it much. Certainly not nearly enough to balance the terrible plays, which are plentiful. And as I said, I actually don't have an ax to grind with the kid, I like him and want him to be better. Best outcome for us all remains Mitch turning his career around and winning the job outright - that's what I hope happens but I'm worried it's going to be forced instead of earned.

I'm not at all thinking about Watson anymore, what's done is done. I'm 100% thinking about winning football games in 2020 and right now my worthless opinion is that Nick Foles is that guy.
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Yogi da Bear
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Re: Mitch Trubisky & General Quarterback Banter

Sun Mar 29, 2020 4:29 pm

You didn't say you wanted to see flashes to balance the bad plays. You said there were no flashes....

You knew this was coming.



You should be able to find some "flashes" in there if you're honest with yourself. I definitely seen plenty of flashes that Nick Foles can't do. Foles doesn't have more talent than Trubisky. He has more consistency and reads defenses better.

Notice specifically the first three clips. I thought he couldn't throw left. lol I think that maybe you should stop with twitter, ESPN, and PFF. None of those sources give Trubisky any kind of fair shake. You know what's funny is that all these pundits who are telling us how horrible Mitch is are the same ones who were calling him the best QB in that draft. But do you think any of them have the balls, or the honesty, to stand up take accountability for that. Hardly. Putzdits!

Maybe it's the meathead Bear fan in me, but I honestly believe that Mitchell's going to take off this year. He has plenty of talent. He really just has to settle down and just play the game. And if he doesn't, Foles is a good backup plan to keep us in the running.
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IE
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Re: Mitch Trubisky & General Quarterback Banter

Mon Mar 30, 2020 12:06 pm

Show any meaningful flashes against any good team. A couple of completions against the Pack don't cut it. And a guy coming back to his ball or making an incredible catch isn't a "flash" for him. Also don't include Cowboys who were so predictably bad on the road I made about $1000 last season on it.

10's only "flashes" were against the junior varsity or in garbage time.

Pace and Nagy clearly don't agree with you that it is remotely likely that 10 will take off this year. Their actions trump their words.
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Yogi da Bear
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Re: Mitch Trubisky & General Quarterback Banter

Mon Mar 30, 2020 5:09 pm

That's simply not true and shows more of the same bias we've been talking about. They're betting that he will break out this year. They simply brought in an insurance policy in case he doesn't. If what you say is true, the Bears will try to trade him before training camp. If they do, I'll admit I'm wrong, but if they don't, I expect you to do the same.
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Re: Mitch Trubisky & General Quarterback Banter

Mon Mar 30, 2020 5:25 pm

Not being "remotely likely" is a little farther than I'd go (I'm at about 1:4 or 1:5 chance personally). But let's not act like Foles is your basic backup QB insurance policy either, he's obviously a more significant signing than that based on cash alone. So Pace/Nagy have definitely sent a loud signal here that they have very serious doubts about Mitch. Good! At best I'd think they'd give Mitch a 50/50 shot at turning it around, otherwise they wouldn't have spent that cap money that they need elsewhere.

So we'll see what happens. My money is on Foles being the better player. Mitch could surprise, and I'd be happy if he did.
Chuck Pagano's defensive rankings in 6 years with Indy: 26th, 20th, 11th, 26th, 30th, and 30th.
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Yogi da Bear
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Re: Mitch Trubisky & General Quarterback Banter

Mon Mar 30, 2020 5:37 pm

I think that's a fair take DP, only I think they'll give Mitch slightly more than a 50/50 chance. They'll probably give him the same shot the Titans gave Mariota over Tannehill.

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