Talking/Arguing/Vomiting about the Offensive Line

[dplank]

Leno and Massie as your starting tackles isn't THAT bad. If their health goes south and their play follows, then the contracts can be looked at with the clarity of retrospect (which football fans LOVE to do). Until the shit hits the fan, you have to assume their health is stable, supports an above average performance which earns them above average pay.

They had a terrible year last year, but it's hard to properly evaluate the impact of their regression when the entire offense collectively drowned. It's better to go into 2020 hoping for the best and planning for the worst - draft and sign quality depth. If you go into 2020 with your primary backups being Lucas and Coward, you've deliberately sabotaged your offensive line.

I don't think you can pin this on Lucas or need to be concerned about upgrading him.

Lucas started 6 games at RT and Massie 10.
Montgomery had 6 games where he had 50+ yds and 4+ ypc.
1/6 of the "good games" came in the 10 Massie starts.
5/6 of the "good games" came in the 6 Lucas starts.

I don't have data on how the pass protection went, but PFF graded Massie at 63 and Lucas at 72 (which is better than ANY season Massie has had in Chicago).

I think it's more accurate to say "the Bears should feel fortunate that an injury sat Massie and pushed Lucas onto the field".

Good post. Anyone else excited about the possibility of adding Trent Williams for only a 4.9M up spend on the OL position for 2020? Then, when you have to re sign him next year, you have the freedom to dump Massie's contract which opens your cap back up?

[IE]

My impression was that Leno played fine the last half after he made some adjustments to avoid holding calls. Is there a late-in-the-season game where he played badly or you're focused on the first half?

Seeing him struggling mightily with bull rushes and getting Trubisky decked on 3 step drops stick out like a sore thumb in my mind.

OK... so don't we (I mean don't the coaches) know the strengths and weaknesses of each player, and try to mitigate? Hey! What if we use Holtz to help out more? How about doing something to make that bull-rusher slow down a bit?

My thinking on why this team performed so poorly across the board this year is:
- Certainly there was bad play, drops, missed assignments, etc. But most of that is fixable using almost the exact same team that was trotted out there.
- For some reason the calls seemed to accentuate weakness versus emphasize strength. E.g. 18 and 29 are super short. Having them curl or throwing to them in contested situations is plain foolish. That's just an example.
- Sure, Mitch struggled. But he was asked to do things he's clearly not capable of doing (at least not now - not even close). So can we please ask him to do more of what he CAN do fairly well? You can win with the guy. BUT not in "Nagy x.0!
- Sure the Oline was bad. How were they helped? We SAW them play better when a more balanced offense was being called. But that was intermittent. THAT needs to change. I pray the new O coaches bring more common sense to complement Nagy's leadership.
- So the TE's stats were weak? What were their looks and real opportunity compared to other TEs around the league? It seems insane to want to bench young guys who demonstrated some solid things and 80-90% catch rate for a guy (Ebron) who has a career 60% rate. Nuts.

I agree with wab - we're not going to see new OTs. It's just a dollars thing, and they brought in a new OL coach to see if they can turn it back around in '20. That decision has been made. The only starting position on the Oline that will be addressed is RG. I like wab's idea to pick up a FA center, since Whitehair and Daniels are so flexible. Daniels played better at LG and maybe he was relieved to not be at C and calling protections. Whitehair really wasn't that good at C, and struggles with snaps - but better at being the leader. The role change mid-season wasn't just where they were lining up, but who was calling the protections. Give the new guy a shot on a short leash (new coaching anyway) and if that doesn't work Whitehair can do that from G.

[crueltyabc]

Dude, did you forget we actually won this one?!

LOL I totally confused it with the Broncos missed kick and turned the game off early

As for Leno, I only noted 3-4 pass plays where he got beat and it impacted the play - several of the ones you cited were irrelevant because Mitch got it away quickly or the play went to the right. For the most part he did his job and the success or failure fell on the rest of his teammates. They were effective running his direction, even if he didn't pancake dudes. It was fine. It's not a bad idea to upgrade him but it's not an emergency in my opinion. I still believe this unit will be good if they replace Long with a quality starter and Daniels plays as well at his 2020 position as he did at LG in 2019.

[HisRoyalSweetness]

Dude, did you forget we actually won this one?!

LOL I totally confused it with the Broncos missed kick and turned the game off early

Er... Pineiro made his kick against the Broncos (53 yards). You really are getting confused!
He missed the game winner against the Chargers.

[crueltyabc]

I’ve gotta cut down on the drinking...

[HisRoyalSweetness]

Easier said than done when you're a Bears fan crueltyabc !

[The Marshall Plan]

I don't think you can pin this on Lucas or need to be concerned about upgrading him.

Lucas started 6 games at RT and Massie 10.
Montgomery had 6 games where he had 50+ yds and 4+ ypc.
1/6 of the "good games" came in the 10 Massie starts.
5/6 of the "good games" came in the 6 Lucas starts.

I don't have data on how the pass protection went, but PFF graded Massie at 63 and Lucas at 72 (which is better than ANY season Massie has had in Chicago).

I think it's more accurate to say "the Bears should feel fortunate that an injury sat Massie and pushed Lucas onto the field".

Good post. Anyone else excited about the possibility of adding Trent Williams for only a 4.9M up spend on the OL position for 2020? Then, when you have to re sign him next year, you have the freedom to dump Massie's contract which opens your cap back up?

I've been meaning to chime in on this.

If I had to go psychotic and overly allocate cap money to one area of the field, it would be to the OL. That being said, I'm biased towards using the draft to fix the problem.

But the status quo on the OL is asking for a repeat disaster. Leno isn't going to find Yoda on Dagobah and become a Jedi.

Anybody who thinks that going into next season with the same starting 5 on OL is a good idea doesn't know what they're talking about.

I need to sit down with the cap simulator and see if the numbers make sense and look at personnel gradings. Things like that.

[Richie]

The difficult with bringing in a new tackle is that the Bears have a ton of money wrapped up in Leno and Massie. So unless they are going to move one of those two over to guard, the best bet is to target a starting guard in R2 and then a developmental OT later in the draft.

This is precisely how I envision this going. Too much invested into Leno/Massie. IMO, they brought in a new line coach to shape up their investments. Not to do a complete overhaul with personnel. If the FO/staff felt the personnel was totally incompetent. They would not have fired such a renowned guy in Heistand.

Sign a guard to plug/play and draft an OT mid-late in the draft. Probably more on the "late" side. As you see every season - you don't have to reach for OL talent. Plenty of guys who go 4th and later who pan out into really good players.

[Drone7]

The difficult with bringing in a new tackle is that the Bears have a ton of money wrapped up in Leno and Massie. So unless they are going to move one of those two over to guard, the best bet is to target a starting guard in R2 and then a developmental OT later in the draft.

This is precisely how I envision this going. Too much invested into Leno/Massie. IMO, they brought in a new line coach to shape up their investments. Not to do a complete overhaul with personnel. If the FO/staff felt the personnel was totally incompetent. They would not have fired such a renowned guy in Heistand.

Sign a guard to plug/play and draft an OT mid-late in the draft. Probably more on the "late" side. As you see every season - you don't have to reach for OL talent. Plenty of guys who go 4th and later who pan out into really good players.

Not following your logic on HH.

Also don't buy your belief that LTs grow on trees. A couple good ones come to mind that went in the 3-4 range like Bahktiari and Armstead, but most teams fill the LT spot with a round 1 or 2 guy. And this scheme needs athletic tackles.

[HisRoyalSweetness]

Anyone else excited about the possibility of adding Trent Williams for only a 4.9M up spend on the OL position for 2020? Then, when you have to re sign him next year, you have the freedom to dump Massie's contract which opens your cap back up?

You propose a creative scenario for Williams's affordability. However, there a number of factors here:

1. Williams was unhappy with the way Washington handled his medical condition, but there's now been a clear out of those he held responsible so he may yet remain with the team.

2. He's under contract for another year at $12.5m, but with no guaranteed money. Are you banking on him being cut or expecting to have to trade for him. Your comment about re-signing him next year implies the latter. If so then what should the Bears be prepared to give up to get him? They're already short on picks. Are you prepared for Williams to walk away a year later if another team offers him a better contract having sacrificed draft capital to get him? Do the Bears sign him to an immediate extension and if so then at what level? Would you use the franchise tag to prevent him from leaving?

3. If Washington were to cut him because a trade market doesn't materialise (which seems unlikely) then what would the Bears have to pay to lure him to Chicago? It's likely to be a multi-year deal with an annual amount at least matching what he's getting now, probably significantly more, and it's unlikely that there won't be competition for his services. One rival could be the Browns; they could use the help at tackle and his old o-line coach is in Cleveland.

If Williams really wants out and Washington hire a first-time GM then maybe Pace could sucker him into a straight swap with Leno!

[dplank]

I just read an article about the Redskins looking for a 2nd round pick. I doubt they get that because he only has one year left on his deal, unless it came with a new deal which right now we can't afford. They also have decisions on Sherff and Kerrigan. I suggested moving Floyd rather than cutting him, if the Skins need an OLB we could swap guys on their last year of their deals for mutual benefit and roughly an even swap on cap space. I'd be down with either scenario, or, as I suggested in my post, I just want Pace to get creative and see what he can pull off. I think he should try. Jason Peters was a master stroke by the Eagles, this feels like a similar scenario. A smart team will figure out how to add one of the premier LT's in the game to their squad, I hope it's us.

[wab]

I just read an article about the Redskins looking for a 2nd round pick. I doubt they get that because he only has one year left on his deal, unless it came with a new deal which right now we can't afford. They also have decisions on Sherff and Kerrigan. I suggested moving Floyd rather than cutting him, if the Skins need an OLB we could swap guys on their last year of their deals for mutual benefit and roughly an even swap on cap space. I'd be down with either scenario, or, as I suggested in my post, I just want Pace to get creative and see what he can pull off. I think he should try. Jason Peters was a master stroke by the Eagles, this feels like a similar scenario. A smart team will figure out how to add one of the premier LT's in the game to their squad, I hope it's us.

So now the idea is to trade a LB that half this board thinks is trash, for an all-pro offensive tackle?

[Richie]

This is precisely how I envision this going. Too much invested into Leno/Massie. IMO, they brought in a new line coach to shape up their investments. Not to do a complete overhaul with personnel. If the FO/staff felt the personnel was totally incompetent. They would not have fired such a renowned guy in Heistand.

Sign a guard to plug/play and draft an OT mid-late in the draft. Probably more on the "late" side. As you see every season - you don't have to reach for OL talent. Plenty of guys who go 4th and later who pan out into really good players.

Not following your logic on HH.

Also don't buy your belief that LTs grow on trees. A couple good ones come to mind that went in the 3-4 range like Bahktiari and Armstead, but most teams fill the LT spot with a round 1 or 2 guy. And this scheme needs athletic tackles.

Per HH - We fired the OL coach, hoping that he was the problem and are bringing in a new OL coach in order to help shape up the personnel that we are basically stuck with. Something needed to change. The Leno/Massie contracts made the decision easy. So, out goes HH. They have no clue if that's the source of the problem. But what other choice do they have but to hope so?

There's just too much of a financial commitment to those two guys, IMO. I think, realistically, the best case scenario is that we sign a RG and draft a developmental OT. Not because that OT will become an all-pro. But because he may develop into a serviceable option down the line. A large portion of the league's tackles are 3rd round or later. Massie and Leno looked pretty good as 4th and 7th round picks until their development went sideways. I'm not saying this will be our franchise LT.

[Drone7]

Thanks for explaining.

My guess is that HH wasn't too pleased with the commitment to run ...the formations and scheme for the talent they had, which is below average across the LOS...so there may have been some frustration and friction there...I have no evidence, but when things aren't going well, and a guy is fired that's a competent technician, it often comes down to not having a long-standing relationship and the scapegoat factor.

What needs to happen, is for someone to convince Nagy that it would be good for the team and Trubisky to build a core running game. I don't want to hear petulant bullshit like " I wasn't hired to run I formation." Maybe Lazor can talk some sense into him. DeFilippo is a good QB coach, but he was fired in MN as an OC for being too pass-happy, not building a running foundation and play action game off it. So I doubt he is the guy to reason with Nagy.

I'm ok with the Castillo hire because he knows the scheme, but I wonder if he's going to be just a yes man that goes along with Nagy's stubborn tendencies for being pass-happy and overly complicated/tricky.

They may get better results though simply by having a better RG and inline TE next year. And a somewhat better passing game, loosening up coverage. It's hard to analyze the state of a running game, not so much on individual plays, but overall.

Look at teams' LTs not over decades but right now. Most are high picks. OTs play in space so it's hard to find OL athletic enough to play LT later. RTs a bit easier. But the Bears need to seek a premium, versatile OT that can play RG/OT right off the bat without development, and LT or RT as a starter in 2021. They need to keep bringing in OL talent until they get one of the best OLs. I'll leave to guys that follow the draft to suggest such a prospect that might be available in round 2. Pace needs to be less enamored of high pick projects this offseason if he wants to avoid the hot seat.

Hard to build an OL nowadays because the CBA rules make it very hard to develop linemen. There are large swaths of the offseason with no hitting, and they only allow major contact roughly once a week during the season. This explains Covert's recent comment that the OL lack good technique compared to players in his day. Also affects blocking in unison. Especially when the starters sat for most of preseason.

[southdakbearfan]

Due to contracts we are probably stuck at tackle, with ok, but not great players.

RG really killed the offense this year, along with the Daniels/Whitehair switch. When moved back they both graded out extremely high.

If Pace can nail a RG down early in the draft or FA, the line as a whole looks a ton better and performs better.

[dplank]

I just read an article about the Redskins looking for a 2nd round pick. I doubt they get that because he only has one year left on his deal, unless it came with a new deal which right now we can't afford. They also have decisions on Sherff and Kerrigan. I suggested moving Floyd rather than cutting him, if the Skins need an OLB we could swap guys on their last year of their deals for mutual benefit and roughly an even swap on cap space. I'd be down with either scenario, or, as I suggested in my post, I just want Pace to get creative and see what he can pull off. I think he should try. Jason Peters was a master stroke by the Eagles, this feels like a similar scenario. A smart team will figure out how to add one of the premier LT's in the game to their squad, I hope it's us.

So now the idea is to trade a LB that half this board thinks is trash, for an all-pro offensive tackle?

Perhaps you aren't reading well because of all that snark getting in the way. I'd explain the correction, but certain it would just be met with more of the same. Be better.

[The Marshall Plan]

Good post. Anyone else excited about the possibility of adding Trent Williams for only a 4.9M up spend on the OL position for 2020? Then, when you have to re sign him next year, you have the freedom to dump Massie's contract which opens your cap back up?

I've been meaning to chime in on this.

If I had to go psychotic and overly allocate cap money to one area of the field, it would be to the OL. That being said, I'm biased towards using the draft to fix the problem.

But the status quo on the OL is asking for a repeat disaster. Leno isn't going to find Yoda on Dagobah and become a Jedi.

Anybody who thinks that going into next season with the same starting 5 on OL is a good idea doesn't know what they're talking about.

I need to sit down with the cap simulator and see if the numbers make sense and look at personnel gradings. Things like that.

If @Moriarty is available I would appreciate his feedback. He's pretty smart when it comes to these things.

Started crunching some numbers on Spotrac:

Beginning:

Total Available Cap: $215,556,739

Total Team Cap $: $200,638,560

Cap Space: $14,918,179

Players on Roster: 51


Transactions:

Released Leonard Floyd: (Saved: $13,222,000)

Released Akiem Hicks: (Saved: $8,800,000)

Released Prince Amukamara: (Saved: $9,000,000)

Released Trey Burton: (Saved: $1,050,000)

Released Taylor Gabriel: (Saved: $4,500,000)


Ending:

Total Available Cap: $215,556,739

Total Team Cap $: $164,066,560

Cap Space: $51,490,179

Total Savings: $36,572,000

Players On Roster: 46


I would imagine that's enough to resign Kwit and to go shopping for OL. Use one of the 2nd rounders on OL and sign someone noteworthy.

[UOK]

Release Hicks?

[thunderspirit]

Release Hicks?

[The Marshall Plan]

Release Hicks?

If you're actually expecting an answer I'm going to laugh because you and @wab have this whole Statler and Waldorf, up in the balcony rubbing each other's crew cuts, thing going on.

Or you can do The Score Caller thing again. I've got a response for that now.

You can go back and actually give a response to some of the ideas that have been mentioned and then I'll answer your question. (Hint: I've mentioned the Hicks thing before.)

[UOK]

Release Hicks?

If you're actually expecting an answer I'm going to laugh because you and @wab have this whole Statler and Waldorf, up in the balcony rubbing each other's crew cuts, thing going on.

Or you can do The Score Caller thing again. I've got a response for that now.

You can go back and actually give a response to some of the ideas that have been mentioned and then I'll answer your question. (Hint: I've mentioned the Hicks thing before.)

I believe the S+W bit was already co-opted by Otis and Boris here, but I appreciate the thought. I have no WSCR post for you at this time.

But I don’t need to say much beyond,”release Hicks?” because whatever explanations you come up with resulting in Hicks being not a Chicago Bear kind of makes fun of itself. Other theories involving him being released as a contract restructuring/etc I’ll keep an open mind to, but go on. I’m genuinely curious as to how this makes the team better.

Also I’ve never had a crew cut, and if wab and I were somehow sharing a balcony alcove, we’d most certainly be comparing nose hair, or who has the better beard (it’s wab).

[dplank]

I would be firmly against releasing Hicks. His production vs cost is not a problem and he's a key player on our defense. We all saw what happened when he went out last year, and it's his first injury with the team so it's not like it's chronic. That's a head scratcher.

[IE]

I would be firmly against releasing Hicks. His production vs cost is not a problem and he's a key player on our defense. We all saw what happened when he went out last year, and it's his first injury with the team so it's not like it's chronic. That's a head scratcher.

I'm not a fan of the "release Hicks" idea - but it is worth discussion without ridicule. What I'd be fully against is releasing 2018 Hicks, who was absolutely dominant and mvp of the Bear D. What I'd be open to discussion around and feel is a legit concern is, he came into the season apparently out of shape. He was friggin huge (which can be fine for a NT, but that's not what Hicks is supposed to be) ... but also noticeably slow(er) and not collapsing the pocket like he's been known to do previously. I personally believe that may have contributed to his early and multiple injuries. Has not been discussed much.

So which Hicks are we talking about here? It's kind of like the Leno thing... are we talking about trash-heaping the zero penalty Leno from 2018, who earned wab's grudging (still skeptic) acknowledgement that he was OK? Or 2019 Leno who joined his other 4 Olinemen in a collective suck whose origin has not been discussed much, or seriously.

Both prior performance and current performance matter. Prior because it gives us an idea of what could be repeated (if a guy is under 30 for sure). Current because if a guy regresses it is legit to wonder if they'll ever regain whatever it was they had.

But given his reputation, "release Hicks" seems like an awful idea regardless. The guy should have good trade value, shouldn't he? If the Bears coaches and trainers knew that Hicks was struggling to keep in shape, why wouldn't they at least consider moving on to someone who they thought was more likely to be more dominant in the future? And save money?

Just talking about it shouldn't be out of the question. It isn't crazy.

[G08]

Hicks might -- MIGHT -- be the most important player on this defense.

[IE]

Hicks might -- MIGHT -- be the most important player on this defense.

He was. But is he still? Which Hicks? 2018 or 2019? In 2019 they had by far their best defensive effort without him. And when he did play he did not look like 2018 Hicks. I would never consider moving on from 2018 Hicks. But... if the Bears could get a promising DE pick and get adequate performance out of Nick Williams and Nicols for a year as a replacement for 2019 Hicks... wouldn't it be a consideration to use that $8.8MM on the Oline?

Edit: Why is Hicks not on the depth chart on the team site? He was back from IR... did they just not update because it was late in the season and the web site keepers were just phoning it in?

[UOK]

Considering the Bears twitter accounts got hacked earlier, I doubt their websites doing a whole lot.

[The Cooler King]

Ok I'll bite. Even if releasing Hicks is viable because his best play us behind him, that'd just be an acknowledgement of the gaping hole that's there. The money you freed up to him needs to go back into the DL to keep it dominant if you want a chance to compete in 2020.

[IE]

Ok I'll bite. Even if releasing Hicks is viable because his best play us behind him, that'd just be an acknowledgement of the gaping hole that's there. The money you freed up to him needs to go back into the DL to keep it dominant if you want a chance to compete in 2020.

That makes sense. I think some of that money would be going to keeping Nick Williams (who is 30 too, but low mileage) and Nicols (who is super young with upside) plus maybe a draft pick if the right guy is there. If not, FA depth.

I am wondering if anyone else saw and thought was I saw with Hicks last year. He just didn't look like 2018 Hicks to me. He had a flash or two against the Pack, and then beyond that was kinda JAG and injured. He's a really good dude so I hope I'm wrong about that. But it stood out to me.

[The Cooler King]

Ok I'll bite. Even if releasing Hicks is viable because his best play us behind him, that'd just be an acknowledgement of the gaping hole that's there. The money you freed up to him needs to go back into the DL to keep it dominant if you want a chance to compete in 2020.

That makes sense. I think some of that money would be going to keeping Nick Williams (who is 30 too, but low mileage) and Nicols (who is super young with upside) plus maybe a draft pick if the right guy is there. If not, FA depth.

I am wondering if anyone else saw and thought was I saw with Hicks last year. He just didn't look like 2018 Hicks to me. He had a flash or two against the Pack, and then beyond that was kinda JAG and injured. He's a really good dude so I hope I'm wrong about that. But it stood out to me.

Well if that's the plan, we experienced a severe drop off from 2018 and I'd think about blowing it up. Rolling the dice on 2020 again for me is predicated on 2018 Hicks being in reach still. Or if there's a comparable replacement on the FA market, go that route.

[Drone7]

Hicks was/is? an impact player. What concerns is the condition of his chronic knee--not his elbow. Teams don't divulge med reports on nagging injuries--like Long's ankle. We're told it's good until it obviously isn't.

I hope he is able to play like he did through most of 2018. We'll see.