Talking/Arguing/Vomiting about the Offensive Line

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IE
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Re: Talking/Arguing/Vomiting about the Offensive Line

Wed Jan 29, 2020 9:56 am

Yeah - agreed Hicks seems to have the intangibles. He's considered a leader. Love having him on the team. He's one of my favorites on the D for sure.

Still, I feel like I fell into an interesting discussion on it when someone else brought it up. Did few people bring it up because it is virtually unthinkable? Maybe. But then... when you look at the D's performance (not necessarily against just the run), it appears statistically that his impact *may* not be what a lot of us anecdotally believe about him and his intangibles. I just like the thought experiment. And really appreciate everyone being calm about it during the discussion - it is just thinking about ways to make the team better.

Maybe another leader emerged. Trevathan is definitely a leader. Maybe Kwit became a leader in a "by example" way... the guy is relentless. (another discussion I'd like to have is, can 44 play OLB?)

This an OLine thread and looks off topic - but the intent of the discussion is to free up resources to shore up the area (Oline) virtually everyone believes needs multiple upgrades. So the money has to come from somewhere....
Last edited by IE on Wed Jan 29, 2020 10:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Talking/Arguing/Vomiting about the Offensive Line

Wed Jan 29, 2020 10:16 am

wab wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 2:25 pm
I don't think Hunt comes within two states of the Bears. He already admitted he'd fail a drug test right now.
I think there's a good chance his career is over.
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Re: Talking/Arguing/Vomiting about the Offensive Line

Wed Jan 29, 2020 10:24 am

If Pace gets rid of Hicks and keeps Floyd I will be starting the get rid of pace thread.
This years draft is loaded at WR and OL.
All this talk of trading for a guy Like Williams is funny. Here is a guy who didn't play last year cuz he doesn't trust his front office. So some want to trade a guy who quit on his teammates? I'll pass.

Hicks is not only the best D-lineman we have on our team that demands double teams that frees up Mack, but he is also the spiritual leader of the team. I re-watched the first three games of the season and want to know how in the hell he looked slow! Demanded double teams and still put pressure right up the gut. Something no other D lineman does. With a recoreded 40 yard time of 5.21 when was he ever fast. His game is sure power and determination and without him Goldman basically disappeared without him. BIG ASS needs to stay or we are going to be spending years looking to replace him. I personally would get rid of Floyd, Goldman and OFFSIDES Lynch before even thinking of getting rid of Hicks. Plus nothing better then watching the man smile all the time on the field. He is your classic Big Teddy Bear. Or as I like to refer to him as Big Ass.

As you guys say stats don't show everything. Like how a man rushes the middle and doesn't allow a QB to step up into the pocket and fire a perfect throw. All NFL QB's can do that. Or the fact that beast of a man jumps or puts his hands up to block the vision of the QB. WIthout Hicks we had almost no pressure up the gut. That is fact not fiction. RRH looks better with Hicks. Mack does better with Hicks. Goldman looks like a good DT with Hicks. Trevethan and Smith don't have to go through as much traffic to lay someone out. We have more turnovers with Hicks in the game. Hicks makes this Defense elite not just top ten.
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Re: Talking/Arguing/Vomiting about the Offensive Line

Wed Jan 29, 2020 11:41 am

BR0D1E86 wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 10:16 am
wab wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 2:25 pm
I don't think Hunt comes within two states of the Bears. He already admitted he'd fail a drug test right now.
I think there's a good chance his career is over.
Well that is not what I expected. I just watched the entire video, out of curiosity over what could end the guy's career. A speeding ticket won't end a guy's career, and that's all they have. His word about passing a test is sketchy - I'll be interested to see what the NFL will do with no real evidence. I'll guess nothing. This wasn't an altercation or crime at all actually - on a scale of "totally harmless" to "Lance Briggs being wasted and wrapping his race car around a tree", I'd put this Hunt thing on the harmless side. But then again the NFL isn't consistent.

This won't be tested because there was no charge. But that was quite the extensive search there, for a speeding violation. The legitimacy of probable cause searches simply due to smell of pot is under scrutiny in the courts in a recently decriminalized environment. Cop seemed nice and pretty considerate. Hunt stayed extremely polite & composed - clearly not under much influence if any.

I personally thought the cop really dragged it out. But the longer they talked, the more clear it was Hunt was being pretty honest. I'd guess Hunt normally wouldn't carry a bottle from anywhere to anywhere because the value of a bottle is chump change to him. But he might bring it back to a friend with less means who asked him to ... so his story on that makes sense (even though it was a mistake for him to do it).

Sign him. He's cheaper now than he was before the stop, and for no good reason.
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Re: Talking/Arguing/Vomiting about the Offensive Line

Wed Jan 29, 2020 3:19 pm

IE wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 11:41 am
BR0D1E86 wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 10:16 am


I think there's a good chance his career is over.
Well that is not what I expected. I just watched the entire video, out of curiosity over what could end the guy's career. A speeding ticket won't end a guy's career, and that's all they have. His word about passing a test is sketchy - I'll be interested to see what the NFL will do with no real evidence. I'll guess nothing. This wasn't an altercation or crime at all actually - on a scale of "totally harmless" to "Lance Briggs being wasted and wrapping his race car around a tree", I'd put this Hunt thing on the harmless side. But then again the NFL isn't consistent.

This won't be tested because there was no charge. But that was quite the extensive search there, for a speeding violation. The legitimacy of probable cause searches simply due to smell of pot is under scrutiny in the courts in a recently decriminalized environment. Cop seemed nice and pretty considerate. Hunt stayed extremely polite & composed - clearly not under much influence if any.

I personally thought the cop really dragged it out. But the longer they talked, the more clear it was Hunt was being pretty honest. I'd guess Hunt normally wouldn't carry a bottle from anywhere to anywhere because the value of a bottle is chump change to him. But he might bring it back to a friend with less means who asked him to ... so his story on that makes sense (even though it was a mistake for him to do it).

Sign him. He's cheaper now than he was before the stop, and for no good reason.
I really would not be interested in Hunt even before this video. That said, yes, the incident was minor, probably hardly newsworthy for 99% of players. But this dude just has a bad pattern. He doesn't sound like a guy's who's totally mentally stable, despite being pretty polite to the officer. I think the dude is a ticking time bomb and needs help. I'm doubtful the NFL is the scenario that's gonna get him the help he needs, and I felt that way this past offseason. You heard it in that video, he's trying to "help everyone". Guarantee as long as he's in the NFL he's gonna have clinger ons who are just dragging him down and he doesn't appear to have the maturity or mental stability to cut those people out and right himself.
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Re: Talking/Arguing/Vomiting about the Offensive Line

Wed Jan 29, 2020 4:11 pm

The other aspect that I missed about this when I was advocating for signing him last off season, is how much the KC offense helped pad his stats. They are throwing random JAGs out there who are putting up really good numbers in that offense. He got to Cleveland and couldn't beat out Chubb. Granted, Chubb is damn good, but still...I simultaneously overrated his talent and underrated his character issues.
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Re: Talking/Arguing/Vomiting about the Offensive Line

Wed Jan 29, 2020 5:20 pm

The Marshall Plan wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 5:15 am
You can't possibly credit Hicks injury for the yardage. There's so much more that goes into that.
No, that's not what I was saying. IE suggested that the overall season rushing statistics indicated that Hicks was 'expendable'. I simply pointed out that those statistics included games in which a fully healthy Hicks played (he didn't go down until the 4th quarter against Washington). Those games account for nearly 20% of the season, contributed to the overall season rankings and helped them be higher than they otherwise would have been because the Bears defense came out of the gate so strong.

So, I reiterate my conclusion: I don't think we can conclude Hicks is expendable just by looking at the overall season figures. It's a fundamentally flawed way of attempting to assess HIcks's value if you don't exclude the games in which he played.
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Re: Talking/Arguing/Vomiting about the Offensive Line

Thu Jan 30, 2020 9:41 am

HisRoyalSweetness wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 5:20 pm
So, I reiterate my conclusion: I don't think we can conclude Hicks is expendable just by looking at the overall season figures. It's a fundamentally flawed way of attempting to assess HIcks's value if you don't exclude the games in which he played.
Hicks played 4 games not 3, and was pretty fierce against the Pack in the 2nd game... playing through pain and making an impact. But if you look at the stats he didn't really skew the results that much versus his replacements all season (so kudos to them). The D still gave up their 80-100 yard average (which is good!!). Same with Kwit and PL ... those guys stepped in and kept the D performance elevated.

The flaw in your conclusion is there's no context. Is the team better with him in there and healthy? Sure. A little bit for sure. But that's not the discussion here.

This is NOT a "Hicks sucks" discussion or a "Hicks is in decline discussion either for that matter (even though his age and shape are legit issues). The discussion is "How do we improve the Oline, and what are the opportunities to do so?"

It is about replacement value and cost, and bettering the team overall. It is about looking at all the big chunks of dollars committed and figuring out how those dollars could be potentially re-allocated to spots of greater need. It is "Hicks is really good, and seems to have some intangibles... but you know what? The defense statistically still happens to be top-notch without him. Pace has in place at least close to replacement-level players, and that exposes Hicks' cost as a legitimate opportunity to shift millions of dollars of resource to shore up the part of the team that every single person here (including you) believes needs it most.
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Re: Talking/Arguing/Vomiting about the Offensive Line

Thu Jan 30, 2020 10:41 am

EricTighe wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 10:24 am
Hicks is not only the best D-lineman we have on our team that demands double teams that frees up Mack, but he is also the spiritual leader of the team.
This is bigger than some folks seem to understand. Want to know when Phil Emery lost the locker room in Chicago... the moment he gave Urlacher an F-off contract offer and then just told him to kick rocks when he declined it... the type of message that sent to the rest of the team, if the face of the franchise got that type of send off from the GM, how would the rest of them get tossed aside when they were determined to be less valuable... Hicks is one of the only players that Mack looks up to in the locker room, referring to him as "Mufasa". So his impact on the team goes beyond the playing field and to just cut the guy coming off an injured season would be telling to the rest of the team. Pace had to rebuild Chicago as a destination for quality free agents after the damage the Emery and Trestman did to this franchise... I cannot recall ever watching a Bears team quit like they did in 2014 and I put that on the front office with Emery being the main blame with how he handled the exiting of a legend and friend of most in the locker room and Trestman and his "no captains" bs...

Sometime you can't just handle personnel stuff like it's Madden and just cut players to make room... some guys just mean more to team chemistry...
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Re: Talking/Arguing/Vomiting about the Offensive Line

Thu Jan 30, 2020 10:48 am

Hick's value is not easy to replace. He's a dawg out there and on defense, you need a couple of those guys out there talking shit to the o-line and messing with their heads. Watch his Mic'd up.... he's the biggest, baddest mofo on the field and he lets everybody know it every minute he's on the field. Once he went down, we were left with Travathan to pick up the chatter between plays. Once Travathan went down we were left with quiet choir boy Mack, RRH who may be a mute and generally quiet guys like Roquan, Nichols, Kwit and Goldman. There was no more edge.... no enforcers out there getting in the other teams heads.
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Re: Talking/Arguing/Vomiting about the Offensive Line

Thu Jan 30, 2020 10:55 am

BamaBear09 wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 10:41 am
EricTighe wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 10:24 am
Hicks is not only the best D-lineman we have on our team that demands double teams that frees up Mack, but he is also the spiritual leader of the team.
This is bigger than some folks seem to understand. Want to know when Phil Emery lost the locker room in Chicago... the moment he gave Urlacher an F-off contract offer and then just told him to kick rocks when he declined it... the type of message that sent to the rest of the team, if the face of the franchise got that type of send off from the GM, how would the rest of them get tossed aside when they were determined to be less valuable... Hicks is one of the only players that Mack looks up to in the locker room, referring to him as "Mufasa". So his impact on the team goes beyond the playing field and to just cut the guy coming off an injured season would be telling to the rest of the team. Pace had to rebuild Chicago as a destination for quality free agents after the damage the Emery and Trestman did to this franchise... I cannot recall ever watching a Bears team quit like they did in 2014 and I put that on the front office with Emery being the main blame with how he handled the exiting of a legend and friend of most in the locker room and Trestman and his "no captains" bs...

Sometime you can't just handle personnel stuff like it's Madden and just cut players to make room... some guys just mean more to team chemistry...
Quoted for MF truth.
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Re: Talking/Arguing/Vomiting about the Offensive Line

Thu Jan 30, 2020 11:15 am

1000% agree. There's just no reason to cut Hicks. We have actual holes to plug, no need to create a new one.
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Re: Talking/Arguing/Vomiting about the Offensive Line

Thu Jan 30, 2020 11:37 am

As far as the oline goes... Leno and Massie have too much money invested in them to replace. And honestly a solid veteran replacement RG will shore up the rest of the line.

I also feel that a lot of the run blocking issues were due to a disconnect between Nagy and Hiestand's scheme philosophies... it looked like the guys would struggle with breaking away from the combo blocks to get to the second level which would normally leave a LB in the hole, which would then cause Monty to dance a bit and try to make him miss which would then allow the other defenders crash the hole and kill the play... that is unless the olineman was just beat off the snap and Monty had someone already in his face as he was taking the hand-off... there was also a clear difference in the use of gadget type running plays as the season progressed as well.. Monty getting more of the load and less Miller pitch sweeps, or Patterson power dives...

The main difference in the rushing this year vs last year was mainly Trubisky... I don't believe he pulled and ran on a zone read until the first Detroit game, IIRC... he pulled and attempted to pass a few times before that but he didn't pose a running threat until the first Detroit game. Also Cohen was far less effective this season... I believe this was caused more by the lacking of a threat at TE... when Cohen split out he was facing more safeties and nickel backs and less linebackers... making him less of a mismatch this season...

As far as pass blocking the group was much better the second half of the season than the first half.

Again a veteran RG and moving Daniels back to center after an off-season of him improving his block adjustments and an OL coach better versed in teaching zone blocking should improve the oline to the level of where they aren't a hindrance to the offense... pair that with better QB play and the offense should hopefully get back to being enough to score some points
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Re: Talking/Arguing/Vomiting about the Offensive Line

Thu Jan 30, 2020 11:56 am

Again a veteran RG and moving Daniels back to center after an off-season of him improving his block adjustments and an OL coach better versed in teaching zone blocking should improve the oline to the level of where they aren't a hindrance to the offense
I used to agree, but Daniels was a top 5 rated guard after he moved back. I think a veteran center would allow Whitehair and Daniels to play guard and really improve the middle.
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Re: Talking/Arguing/Vomiting about the Offensive Line

Thu Jan 30, 2020 12:01 pm

wab wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 11:56 am
Again a veteran RG and moving Daniels back to center after an off-season of him improving his block adjustments and an OL coach better versed in teaching zone blocking should improve the oline to the level of where they aren't a hindrance to the offense
I used to agree, but Daniels was a top 5 rated guard after he moved back. I think a veteran center would allow Whitehair and Daniels to play guard and really improve the middle.
Yeah I can agree with that... probably cheaper to go that route as well, think Guard is a higher value position, salary wise.
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Re: Talking/Arguing/Vomiting about the Offensive Line

Thu Jan 30, 2020 12:22 pm

We can get a top Center in this years draft with one of our 2nd rounders (I like Cushenberry and Biadasz). If that pick works out, the interior of the line would be set for some time.
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Re: Talking/Arguing/Vomiting about the Offensive Line

Thu Jan 30, 2020 12:22 pm

BamaBear09 wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 12:01 pm
wab wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 11:56 am

I used to agree, but Daniels was a top 5 rated guard after he moved back. I think a veteran center would allow Whitehair and Daniels to play guard and really improve the middle.
Yeah I can agree with that... probably cheaper to go that route as well, think Guard is a higher value position, salary wise.
Stefen Wisniewski would be my choice. Then take a center early and a developmental OT at some point later in the draft.
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Re: Talking/Arguing/Vomiting about the Offensive Line

Thu Jan 30, 2020 12:39 pm

JMO, but I view late round OT's as throw away picks. It's one of those positions that seems to rarely hit unless it's a high pick, 1st or 2nd round. You can sometimes get them to be quality backups, or even marginal starters, but that's what we already have. If you look at the 2 super bowl teams, there's 4 starting OT's. 3 were taken in the 1st round (one was 1st overall) and one was taken in the 2nd.

This is why I prefer the FA route for OT and the draft route for G given our current situation. But as a general theme, we need to prioritize OT more when we get high picks. In 2016, we took Floyd over both Laramey Tunsil and Taylor Decker.
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Re: Talking/Arguing/Vomiting about the Offensive Line

Thu Jan 30, 2020 12:47 pm

dplank wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 12:39 pm
JMO, but I view late round OT's as throw away picks. It's one of those positions that seems to rarely hit unless it's a high pick, 1st or 2nd round. You can sometimes get them to be quality backups, or even marginal starters, but that's what we already have. If you look at the 2 super bowl teams, there's 4 starting OT's. 3 were taken in the 1st round (one was 1st overall) and one was taken in the 2nd.

This is why I prefer the FA route for OT and the draft route for G given our current situation. But as a general theme, we need to prioritize OT more when we get high picks. In 2016, we took Floyd over both Laramey Tunsil and Taylor Decker.
Right, my thinking is that you get a developmental guy in the 5th round, and then when you get a 1st round pick, you target a star OT. The developmental guy would be a backup level player.
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Re: Talking/Arguing/Vomiting about the Offensive Line

Thu Jan 30, 2020 1:10 pm

wab wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 10:55 am
BamaBear09 wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 10:41 am


This is bigger than some folks seem to understand. Want to know when Phil Emery lost the locker room in Chicago... the moment he gave Urlacher an F-off contract offer and then just told him to kick rocks when he declined it... the type of message that sent to the rest of the team, if the face of the franchise got that type of send off from the GM, how would the rest of them get tossed aside when they were determined to be less valuable... Hicks is one of the only players that Mack looks up to in the locker room, referring to him as "Mufasa". So his impact on the team goes beyond the playing field and to just cut the guy coming off an injured season would be telling to the rest of the team. Pace had to rebuild Chicago as a destination for quality free agents after the damage the Emery and Trestman did to this franchise... I cannot recall ever watching a Bears team quit like they did in 2014 and I put that on the front office with Emery being the main blame with how he handled the exiting of a legend and friend of most in the locker room and Trestman and his "no captains" bs...

Sometime you can't just handle personnel stuff like it's Madden and just cut players to make room... some guys just mean more to team chemistry...
Quoted for MF truth.
Oh for fuck’s sake.

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Re: Talking/Arguing/Vomiting about the Offensive Line

Thu Jan 30, 2020 1:44 pm

The Marshall Plan wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 1:10 pm
wab wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 10:55 am


Quoted for MF truth.
Oh for fuck’s sake.

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Re: Talking/Arguing/Vomiting about the Offensive Line

Thu Jan 30, 2020 3:07 pm

The Marshall Plan wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 1:10 pm

Oh for fuck’s sake.

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TMP PLANS THE OFFSEASON

Part 1:

Image

Part 2:
  • seduce and marry Virginia McCaskey
  • manipulate will in your favor
  • hospice Virginia
  • drown George
  • burn Ted Phillips alive
  • fire Nagy
  • fire Pace
  • fire all coaches
  • fire all management
  • cut Leno
  • cut Massie
  • cut Trubisky
  • cut Hicks
  • cut entire roster
  • get average salary down to ~ $250,000
  • hire a literal pork chop as head coach
  • go 0-16
  • fire pork chop
  • hire fat, angry blue collar guy named Carl to be head coach
  • Carl, having only worked at Johnny Rockets, is functionally illiterate, but loves to yell
  • team goes 0-16
  • fire Carl
  • reluctantly sell shares of ownership to people who are not pork chops or dopes
  • they pay lots of money for free agents and take risks in the draft
  • you sell your remaining stakes as team goes from 0-16 to 7-9
  • forsake team, as you believe they will never win again
  • Bears win 80 consecutive Super Bowls
  • The Marshall Plan jr wistfully looks at his Packer fan gear season by season, wondering why pops lost his shit all those years ago, wishing he could switch allegiances
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Re: Talking/Arguing/Vomiting about the Offensive Line

Thu Jan 30, 2020 3:19 pm

UOK wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 3:07 pm
The Marshall Plan wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 1:10 pm

Oh for fuck’s sake.

Image
TMP PLANS THE OFFSEASON

Part 1:

Image

Part 2:
  • seduce and marry Virginia McCaskey
  • manipulate will in your favor
  • hospice Virginia
  • drown George
  • burn Ted Phillips alive
  • fire Nagy
  • fire Pace
  • fire all coaches
  • fire all management
  • cut Leno
  • cut Massie
  • cut Trubisky
  • cut Hicks
  • cut entire roster
  • get average salary down to ~ $250,000
  • hire a literal pork chop as head coach
  • go 0-16
  • fire pork chop
  • hire fat, angry blue collar guy named Carl to be head coach
  • Carl, having only worked at Johnny Rockets, is functionally illiterate, but loves to yell
  • team goes 0-16
  • fire Carl
  • reluctantly sell shares of ownership to people who are not pork chops or dopes
  • they pay lots of money for free agents and take risks in the draft
  • you sell your remaining stakes as team goes from 0-16 to 7-9
  • forsake team, as you believe they will never win again
  • Bears win 80 consecutive Super Bowls
  • The Marshall Plan jr wistfully looks at his Packer fan gear season by season, wondering why pops lost his shit all those years ago, wishing he could switch allegiances
I'm dying over here sitting in the back of a budget meeting and everyone keeps looking back at me while I pretend I'm coughing.
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IE
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Re: Talking/Arguing/Vomiting about the Offensive Line

Thu Jan 30, 2020 3:41 pm

ROFL. TMP doesn't quite deserve that treatment. I mean, beyond the Floyd conspiracy. lol

Seriously though. The chemistry thing is not the truth at all. It isn't. It's rah-rah fire and passion stuff and all "feels" and "you can tell" and "I got chills"... the same kind of crap we heard when Rex Grossman replaced Kyle Orton at halftime. It's fantasy horse hockey.

Mack wants to friggin win. He wants the other team playing from behind, and would love the O to have more strength. I don't care if he calls Hicks EFFING JESUS... he wants to win more than he likes anyone. He'll line up and be brothers with anyone beside him and working hard to get him his goal. Williams was no slouch. He likes all these guys. He also LOVES Flo. But would he like someone getting a little more success as a pass rusher? Probably.

The reason past teams cratered isn't because of a player moving on ... it is because of the talent level and skills in decline plus the coaching. This team is younger and talented and full of players who want to win. And Nagy kept them together in a very trying season... one of his true strengths.

It's funny to bring up Madden as if that is schoolboy silly. What is silly is thinking that Akiem Hicks is the "heart and soul" and that all these other pros will turtle and cry if he's not around to perform at a 5% better rate than Nick Williams for $8Million more. It's funny I actually really like the guy (Hicks). This sacred cow emotional response to even talking about the money and opportunity is really something.
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Re: Talking/Arguing/Vomiting about the Offensive Line

Thu Jan 30, 2020 3:47 pm

Akiem Hicks is worth more to the defense in 2020 than a right guard is to the offense in 2020. That's the long and short of it. You can't change my mind.
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Re: Talking/Arguing/Vomiting about the Offensive Line

Thu Jan 30, 2020 3:49 pm

Plus, it makes more sense to cut him next offseason when the savings is massive and the Bears will really be in a position to replace one/both starting offensive tackles.
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Re: Talking/Arguing/Vomiting about the Offensive Line

Thu Jan 30, 2020 4:03 pm

IE wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 3:41 pm
ROFL. TMP doesn't quite deserve that treatment. I mean, beyond the Floyd conspiracy. lol

Seriously though. The chemistry thing is not the truth at all. It isn't. It's rah-rah fire and passion stuff and all "feels" and "you can tell" and "I got chills"... the same kind of crap we heard when Rex Grossman replaced Kyle Orton at halftime. It's fantasy horse hockey.

Mack wants to friggin win. He wants the other team playing from behind, and would love the O to have more strength. I don't care if he calls Hicks EFFING JESUS... he wants to win more than he likes anyone. He'll line up and be brothers with anyone beside him and working hard to get him his goal. Williams was no slouch. He likes all these guys. He also LOVES Flo. But would he like someone getting a little more success as a pass rusher? Probably.

The reason past teams cratered isn't because of a player moving on ... it is because of the talent level and skills in decline plus the coaching. This team is younger and talented and full of players who want to win. And Nagy kept them together in a very trying season... one of his true strengths.

It's funny to bring up Madden as if that is schoolboy silly. What is silly is thinking that Akiem Hicks is the "heart and soul" and that all these other pros will turtle and cry if he's not around to perform at a 5% better rate than Nick Williams for $8Million more. It's funny I actually really like the guy (Hicks). This sacred cow emotional response to even talking about the money and opportunity is really something.
I think the "heart of the team" stuff has some merit, but it's mostly when someone's a huge asshat that can break up a locker room.

When a player is considered a great "locker room guys," what that means is rather open to interpretation, but generally the consensus of heart and passion only goes so far I would agree with. That said, it's important to have "positive" vibes. Nobody wants to work with a shithead.

Here's some reading about chemistry for substance:
http://a.espncdn.com/nfl/preview02/colu ... 22797.html

"You've got so many guys on a team, and a lot of them aren't going to get along," Dolphins middle linebacker Zach Thomas said. "But when you are on the field, I don't care if you don't like somebody, you are going to go all out of course. You've got to do your job. The thing in a locker room is if a guy is missing practice and everyone knows that he's not wanting to come on the field and play, it's like a cancer and it affects your play. It spreads quickly."

Perhaps the biggest decision Belichick made on the way to winning the Super Bowl was suspending wide receiver Terry Glenn. No one questions Glenn's skills. Packers coach Mike Sherman, in fact, traded for Glenn with the idea of making him Brett Favre's "go-to" receiver in a Super Bowl run.

Glenn, however, let his off-the-field problems and spats with management affect his play last season. He was absent too many times when the team needed him. Though the Patriots couldn't afford to lose his ability to make the big offensive play, they survived and thrived without him.

"More than just the chemistry of getting along and not fighting amongst yourselves is accountability," Dolphins defensive end Jason Taylor said. "The key for a team is everyone being accountable. Is this guy working as hard as I am? My biggest fear is three or four years from now, you look back and you know that you have a pretty good team in 2002, but such and such happens and we didn't get enough out of our talent. People have to be accountable."

The Dolphins made a tough decision this offseason. Defensive tackle Daryl Gardener has been one of their best defensive players for the past few years. Management made him one of the highest paid defensive tackles. Dolphins linebackers, mostly lighter than those on other teams because of Miami's emphasis on speed, managed their games around how Gardener and teammate Tim Bowens occupied blockers at the line of scrimmage.

But in the eyes of some Dolphins players, Gardener crossed the line of accountability. He was lax at showing up for meetings. Though he fought through horrible back problems that eventually required two surgeries, Gardener wasn't as accountable in past years on the practice field.

Whether Gardener was innocent, he was being found guilty in the locker room. The Dolphins cut him.

"It was more of a thing over the last three years, things got out of hand in certain situations," Thomas said. "I'm not trying to knock him. It wasn't his teammates who got him out of here. I didn't go upstairs to the coach and say to get rid of him. But if you want to be a leader on a team and you think he's slacking, I should tell him. And I've done that. The biggest thing is that no one in a locker room cares about the business off the field. You don't know what's messing with a guy's head. But when he's out there on the field, it doesn't matter if you hate the guy, everyone has to pull together."
http://a.espncdn.com/nfl/preview02/question/day1.html

Mike Golic: You would like to have good chemistry on every team, but is it the be-all and end-all? No. You get along with some people and not with others. There were a few teammates I didn't care for, and maybe they didn't like me either. But on the field, you have to be able to perform. Camaraderie and unity in the locker room can do nothing but create harmony for the team. Does that translate into wins and losses? I have been in locker rooms with and without harmony, and either way we didn't make the playoffs. I don't know if one was better than the other. The bottom line is, that you have to do your job, whether you like someone or not. You won't hurt the team's chances because you may not like someone.


Mark Schlereth: It's huge. To me, chemistry is more important than talent. I've had the privilege of being on three Super Bowl championship teams, and if you looked at each of those three teams, we weren't the NFL's most talented team at the time. There were other teams more talented than we were. When a team has the right chemistry, the players forget about individual accolades and about making the Pro Bowl. Instead, they focus on playing with one another. That is what chemistry is all about. If you can get players to forget about their selfish, individual agendas and put the team ahead of themselves, they can win. There is no better example than the Patriots last year.


Merril Hoge: For happiness and contentment throughout the season, I think it's extremely important. But it's not necessary to win. I have played on teams that went 11-5, and we hated the defense and the defense hated the offense. Players hated each other. Chemistry, however, does make the season much easier, especially when a team has to fight through the tough times together.


Mark Malone: Chemistry is important because it's a team sport. Sometimes, a little too much is made of chemistry because ultimately it's about what you do on the field and not in the locker room. You may not have to go out to dinner with everyone, or have their wife and kids over, or have a picnic together in the offseason. Not everybody gets along in that manner. But if the chemistry is good, your teammates respect each other, and everyone understands that the game is played, won and lost on the field, then I think that's really all you need. Chemistry on the field is a lot more important than chemistry in the locker room.
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dplank
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Re: Talking/Arguing/Vomiting about the Offensive Line

Thu Jan 30, 2020 4:57 pm

wab wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 3:47 pm
Akiem Hicks is worth more to the defense in 2020 than a right guard is to the offense in 2020. That's the long and short of it. You can't change my mind.
Very true, but not only that...there's simply NO NEED TO CUT HICKS. I have no idea why this is being discussed at all? There's plenty of cap space in other cuts there for us to do whatever we want to do, we don't need to do this to sign a OG or an OT or anyone else. It's just a silly premise all around.

Prince, Floyd, Gabriel, and Long (who's already off the books) is plenty of cash. Toss in Shaheen and Braunecker for another 3M if we need it.

Hicks is miles better than any of those guys. Moving on....
Chuck Pagano's defensive rankings in 5 years with Indy: 26th, 20th, 11th, 26th, 30th, and 30th.
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Re: Talking/Arguing/Vomiting about the Offensive Line

Thu Jan 30, 2020 7:33 pm

This discussion about Hicks all came about because TMP listed a number of players including Hicks who could be cut to save significant cap money that could then be spent on upgrading the offensive line. The idea of cutting Hicks was met with incredulity but IE, quite reasonably, argued that the notion shouldn't simply be dismissed and was worthy of discussion. He then proceeded to explain why and quoted some rushing statistics to make an argument that the team didn't really miss Hicks when he was out injured.

However, as I've attempted to point out, his use of statistics is flawed and if you delve into them a little deeper the rushing statistics actually point to the opposite of his conclusion. If you'll forgive me for prolonging the Hicks argument for a moment, I'll respond to IE's previous post to reiterate why.
IE wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 9:41 am
HisRoyalSweetness wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 5:20 pm
So, I reiterate my conclusion: I don't think we can conclude Hicks is expendable just by looking at the overall season figures. It's a fundamentally flawed way of attempting to assess HIcks's value if you don't exclude the games in which he played.
Hicks played 4 games not 3, and was pretty fierce against the Pack in the 2nd game... playing through pain and making an impact. But if you look at the stats he didn't really skew the results that much versus his replacements all season (so kudos to them). The D still gave up their 80-100 yard average (which is good!!). Same with Kwit and PL ... those guys stepped in and kept the D performance elevated.

The flaw in your conclusion is there's no context. Is the team better with him in there and healthy? Sure. A little bit for sure. But that's not the discussion here.

This is NOT a "Hicks sucks" discussion or a "Hicks is in decline discussion either for that matter (even though his age and shape are legit issues). The discussion is "How do we improve the Oline, and what are the opportunities to do so?"

It is about replacement value and cost, and bettering the team overall. It is about looking at all the big chunks of dollars committed and figuring out how those dollars could be potentially re-allocated to spots of greater need. It is "Hicks is really good, and seems to have some intangibles... but you know what? The defense statistically still happens to be top-notch without him. Pace has in place at least close to replacement-level players, and that exposes Hicks' cost as a legitimate opportunity to shift millions of dollars of resource to shore up the part of the team that every single person here (including you) believes needs it most.
I'm well aware that Hicks played in the second Packers game after returning from IR, which is why I emphasised 'when he was fully healthy'. As you point out, he played tough but had to keep coming out of that game because of the amount of pain he was in. That game is cannot really be taken as indicative of the contribution to this defense that a healthy Hicks makes. Nevertheless, if you want to factor in that game then that's fine.

First 3 games with a fully healthy Hicks
Rushing yards per game: 69
Rushing yards per carry: 3.1

Remaining 13 games without a fully healthy Hicks
Rushing yards per game: 110
Rushing yards per carry: 4.1

All 4 games with Hicks
Rushing yards per game:77
Rushing yards per carry: 3.4

12 games without Hicks
Rushing yards per game: 111
Rushing yards per carry: 4.1

So, as before, without a healthy Hicks the defense gave up 41 more yards a game and a full yard more per carry. Without Hicks at all the defense still gave up an additional 34 yards a game and 0.7 ypc more.

You say 'if you look at the stats he didn't really skew the results that much versus his replacements all season'. The stats above show you are incorrect.

You say the 'D still gave up their 80-100 yard average' without Hicks. They didn't; they gave up an average of 110 yards per game without him versus 77 with him.

You say 'The defense statistically still happens to be top-notch without him'. The defense fell outside of the top 10 against the rush if you compare the 12 games without Hicks against the full season figures for the league. The defense wasn't 'top-notch' this year; it was top 10 but nowhere near the elite force it was in 2018... except through the first 4 games, in which Hicks played in 3.

You say 'Pace has in place at least close to replacement-level players, and that exposes Hicks' cost as a legitimate opportunity to shift millions of dollars of resource to shore up' the offensive line. Your conclusion that there are 'close to replacement-level players' on the defensive line is highly debatable and not born out by the statistics above. They only have 4 other defensive linemen under contract, and one is NT Eddie Goldman. Have Abdullah Anderson or James Vaughters or even Bilal Nicols really convinced you that they can play anywhere close to Hicks's level? Nothing you've posted 'exposes Hicks' cost as a legitimate opportunity to shift millions of dollars of resource'.

Where we do agree is that this is not a discussion about Hicks's ability, it is about the offensive line. As others have pointed out there are plenty of other ways to free up money without parting ways with Hicks. The question is where could that money realistically be spent and even if it should be ploughed into the line or whether the draft is a better way to go, especially given the amount tied up in the tackle positions for another season.
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dplank
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Re: Talking/Arguing/Vomiting about the Offensive Line

Thu Jan 30, 2020 7:42 pm

Great post
Chuck Pagano's defensive rankings in 5 years with Indy: 26th, 20th, 11th, 26th, 30th, and 30th.

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