Talking/Arguing/Vomiting about the Offensive Line

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UOK
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Re: Potential Target: TE Eric Ebron

Wed Jan 22, 2020 4:29 pm

dplank wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 3:56 pm
How come you guys keep excusing every bad performer on offense with the statement "the entire offense collectively drowned"

You folks are professionals at excuse making.

Do you folks HONESTLY believe that just changing our RG is going to somehow move us from 29th to middle of the pack on offense?
First off, chill out. Don't quote me verbatim only to say it came from "you guys." I don't speak for everybody. Accusing the overall board of being weak-willed is also quite disappointing. I would imagine you're better than that.

Secondly, I am forgiving of their errors because their fucking contracts have the cap and position in a vice. Cutting them would result in almost $18M being set on fire. I don't have any affinity or love for either guy, but I know that when they're decent, I can live with them, but I'm not going to let last year define them because I've seen them both play well. Last year was not a petri dish of their condensed careers, nor was it a fluke. It was a down year for them, and for the offense. I can see things that way because I guess I'm just a soft-hearted internet pussy.

You're okay with that because you want scalps. It's easy to be uncompromising, as is your right.

I, the apparently spineless, weak-willed, snowflake that I am is willing to be patient. I feel like the devils we know in Massie and Leno can hold the dam for at least another season while the team revamps the interior and depth. If next year the tackle position is clearly crumbling into a cesspool of trash, I'm sure the record will reflect that, and changes will be made accordingly. Maybe we can just wait a tiny bit before setting the whole fucking thing on fire, yeah?

Spin my words any way that satisfies you, but if your stance is pounding the table for the hammer to fall on big-contract guys that don't meet your expectations, I wonder how you don't live in an endless rage. This shit takes time. Things that move as fast as you seem to want them to aren't the norm. This is a slow, plodding franchise that rarely takes drastic, bold action. Pace has taken strides to change that, however, but it seems a lot of people that want somehow more change at a faster, frenetic rate want him fired anyway.

I'm just fucking exhausted of the vitriol and outrage. Exhausted.

The Bears are a decent team that had a shitty year and underachieved. They had a lot of injuries and regressions in both personnel and talent. Things can be great next season, or they could be bad. Nobody knows, and nobody can predict it with any accuracy.

But trying to help us poor blind weak fools see the errors of our soft ways is insulting. Come to your senses and have a goddamn drink.
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Re: Potential Target: TE Eric Ebron

Wed Jan 22, 2020 4:30 pm

Leno was pretty bad last season, but I'm wondering if new coaching can get all those guys blocking well again. There is so much tape of our entire o-line standing up on running plays like they're setting up to pass block. It was troubling, weird and maddening to watch.
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Drone7
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Re: Potential Target: TE Eric Ebron

Wed Jan 22, 2020 4:42 pm

Why would coaching be a big issue? Hiestand was an excellent OL coach with enough experience 2 years into the system to adapt his teaching. The new OL coach sounds ok and probably buys into the system more than I suspect Hiestand did; but expecting a big improvement because of coaching for older players isn't likely.

Leno and Massie have plateaued. Leno played the whole season; Massie was banged up then went out.

They may have a slightly better season next year, but if that happens it will be more due to players around them playing better.

They missed too many blocks because of their (mostly physical) limitations in a demanding scheme. Poor play at RG, TE, QB and having a rookie RB that danced too often didn't help either.
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Re: Potential Target: TE Eric Ebron

Wed Jan 22, 2020 4:55 pm

Drone7 wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 4:42 pm
Why would coaching be a big issue? Hiestand was an excellent OL coach with enough experience 2 years into the system to adapt his teaching. The new OL coach sounds ok and probably buys into the system more than I suspect Hiestand did; but expecting a big improvement because of coaching for older players isn't likely.

Leno and Massie have plateaued. Leno played the whole season; Massie was banged up then went out.

They may have a slightly better season next year, but if that happens it will be more due to players around them playing better.

They missed too many blocks because of their (mostly physical) limitations in a demanding scheme. Poor play at RG, TE, QB and having a rookie RB that danced too often didn't help either.
Yet the Bears are still stuck with Leno and Massie for the foreseeable future. Sorry fam.
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Re: Potential Target: TE Eric Ebron

Wed Jan 22, 2020 4:59 pm

wab wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 4:55 pm
Yet the Bears are still stuck with Leno and Massie for the foreseeable future. Sorry fam.
Their poor play was a CRIME, wab. And crimes deserve punishment by termination of their contracts, money be DAMNED! There need to be consequences for every failure, even if it means torching the cap and giving our franchise a shit reputation.

Poor play = cut, end of story.

Sincerely,

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Re: Potential Target: TE Eric Ebron

Wed Jan 22, 2020 5:10 pm

Drone7 wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 4:42 pm
Why would coaching be a big issue? Hiestand was an excellent OL coach with enough experience 2 years into the system to adapt his teaching.
I have no clue WTF happened to the line last season. But changing coaches may at least get them to fire out low on run plays.
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Re: Potential Target: TE Eric Ebron

Wed Jan 22, 2020 5:36 pm

Seriously is anyone going to cite a few games where they played badly? Or at least post PFF scores or something for their game splits or something other than ranting?
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Re: Potential Target: TE Eric Ebron

Wed Jan 22, 2020 6:06 pm

wab wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 1:50 pm
The Marshall Plan wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 1:07 pm
Ok, we have a 3 page thread about Eric Ebron.

He played in 11 games and had 375 yards receiving in 2019.

Since OL is the real problem, can we have a 50 pager about that instead?
I already solved it. Sign a starting center and let Daniels/Whitehair play guard.
You know we'll never get to 50 pages with an attitude like that. Just sayin'. :D
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Re: Potential Target: TE Eric Ebron

Wed Jan 22, 2020 6:31 pm

crueltyabc wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 5:36 pm
Seriously is anyone going to cite a few games where they played badly? Or at least post PFF scores or something for their game splits or something other than ranting?
Are you talking about the o-line? I thought their abysmal season was common knowledge.
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Re: Potential Target: TE Eric Ebron

Wed Jan 22, 2020 7:22 pm

If you're basis for argument is assuming that the other person is a moron and literally doesn't understand salary cap and/or football business, you probably don't have a strong argument to begin with. I understand it better than you know, made my living off it for years. I've yet to hear you, or anyone else, respond to my actual, more nuanced suggestion of a one year spending bubble at the position, with a Massie exit the next year returning us to normal. Or, if you please, Massie might be a movable piece. His contract isn't that egregious. My point is, and has been, you need to get more creative here than just accepting our fate that our OL is going to suck again next year. I'm firmly against throwing seasons away, and IMO that's what we're doing if we roll with Leno/Massie as our starting tackles.
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Re: Potential Target: TE Eric Ebron

Wed Jan 22, 2020 7:47 pm

crueltyabc wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 5:36 pm
Seriously is anyone going to cite a few games where they played badly? Or at least post PFF scores or something for their game splits or something other than ranting?
PFF ranked our OL 25th. Football outsiders ranked our OL 29th. We ranked 29th in the NFL in rushing yards per attempt, ahead of only Miami and the Jets. We ranked 21st in sacks, giving up 45 while only getting 32 ourselves. Someone else posted a stat about how bad we were giving up "quick pressure", but I can't find it.

But if you need a website to tell you that our OL was awful this year, I suggest watching another sport. That's a layup man. Simple eye test will suffice.
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Re: Potential Target: TE Eric Ebron

Wed Jan 22, 2020 7:55 pm

crueltyabc wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 3:59 pm
My impression was that Leno played fine the last half after he made some adjustments to avoid holding calls. Is there a late-in-the-season game where he played badly or you're focused on the first half?
Leno certainly cut down on the penalties later in the season, but his blocking continued to be woeful. In the last game of the season I recall Trubisky getting flattened twice when his back foot hit on a 3 step (!) drop because Leno completely whiffed and the edge rusher had a free run. As others have said, he wasn't that bad in previous seasons which is why he earned himself a nice contract.

The whole offensive line was poor last year. AZ_Bearfan rightly mentioned how high they played on run plays. It was really odd and I can think of no reason for it. Frankly it was so obvious I can't believe the coaching staff did nothing to address it. I mean being lower than your opponent to win the leverage battle is football 101.

Pass protection was sporadic and when it broke down it did so quickly. The biggest culprits were Leno and Coward in the tape I watched. Coward has the excuse of being a converted DL and playing his first games; he often seemed confused about his assignment. Leno on the other hand has no such excuse. Heck, I remember at least one occasion when he got bowled over by a DB!

The thing is, if the whole o-line regressed this year then is it just a 'down year' as UOK suggests it might be or is it evidence that players, particularly the OTs, are on a permanent downward trajectory? I can't see any team being interested in trading for either one given their performances this year and the size of their contracts, so they're almost certainly going to be back next year and we'll find out one way or the other. If that's the case then picking up a high-priced free agent replacement is out. Drafting an OT prospect in the second round however would make a ton of sense. If he were to prove to be the better player then he could beat out one of them before the season ends.

As for TE, I'm open to bringing in anyone who can compete. I thought Horsted and particularly Holtz flashed genuine promise and that they were underused but the overall production from the position was flat out embarrassing. Pace not having an out after two years with Burton is odd because the contracts he gives out usually do. Burton could get healthy and return to his 2018 form, but we certainly can't count on it. There needs to be quality competition but it's a difficult position to find a top tier player for. Ebron's certainly not in that category. A one-year prove it deal which allows the Bears to cut him with a minimal cap hit if he's not better than other options on the roster would make him worth bringing in, but I certainly wouldn't be interested in any other deal.
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Re: Potential Target: TE Eric Ebron

Wed Jan 22, 2020 8:24 pm

Keep in mind that Leno is 6/3 and was a 7th round pick. A great 7th rounder, but he went there partly because of his physical limitations. Has long arms, but not many 6/3 OTs in the NFL. Massie is big, but a 4th rounder. He's not real agile and doesn't bend well so he's strictly a RT. The Cards let him go and their OL wasn't that good. So the Bears haven't recently invested in drafting good athletes at the OT position. This run scheme pulls tackles a lot so they often have to pick up more athletic defenders in space. And they aren't athletic enough at times to get position AND leverage.

Compare them to the Chiefs that run a similar scheme. Fisher was a #1 overall pick in the draft; Schwartz was a 2nd rounder (CL).
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Re: Potential Target: TE Eric Ebron

Wed Jan 22, 2020 9:06 pm

100% correct. You have to invest (wisely) in your OL if you want to play Nagy ball. We have bad money in both Leno and Massie right now, and no starting RG. Big problem. I prefer going G in the draft because I think you are far more likely to find a starter in Rd2 than taking a T there, it's just better value. If we don't resign Lucas, we will need a swing tackle, so there's a few million that would need to be spent there no matter what. So instead, call Massie or Leno an overpaid swing tackle and go get a bonafide stud NFL player to start and anchor our line. Cut Floyd and don't re-sign Lucas, and you just paid for Trent Williams and then some (Williams costs 12.5M, not guaranteed, 1yr). It's not impossible. Maybe trade Floyd for Williams? We'd each get a player on their last year and roughly an even cap swap. Redskins have to get rid of the guy I'd think, he sat out the whole year last year and it was nasty. Or hell, trade Leno for Williams! I doubt the Redskins would do it, but damn if that happened I'd kiss wab straight on the mouth. :o

I could see Trent Williams being as big to the offense as Mack was to the defense when we nabbed him. Something, incredibly, many Bears fans argued against at the time. This could be a Jason Peters moment for our franchise!
Last edited by dplank on Wed Jan 22, 2020 9:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Potential Target: TE Eric Ebron

Wed Jan 22, 2020 9:09 pm

crueltyabc wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 3:59 pm
G08 wrote:
Fri Jan 03, 2020 11:01 am
Based on his 2019 tape, I just don't know how you can go into 2020 with Charles Leno as your starting LT.
My impression was that Leno played fine the last half after he made some adjustments to avoid holding calls. Is there a late-in-the-season game where he played badly or you're focused on the first half?
Seeing him struggling mightily with bull rushes and getting Trubisky decked on 3 step drops stick out like a sore thumb in my mind.
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First 41 starts in NFL (updated weekly):

Drew Brees: 61.2% | 8261 yards | 52 TDs | 37 INTs | 6.60 YPA | 82.2 rating

Mitch Trubisky: 63.4% | 8554 yards | 48 TDs | 29 INTs | 6.7 YPA | 85.8 rating
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Re: Potential Target: TE Eric Ebron

Wed Jan 22, 2020 9:13 pm

wab wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 4:17 pm
And for the record... my hate for Charles Leno is legendary here. So, excuses I do not make when it comes to that dude.
You realize this whole cluster-fuck of a season is your fault, right @wab? When you wore the Leno shirt we collectively got you last season we were lights out. You forget to wear it week 1 this year and everything goes to shit.

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First 41 starts in NFL (updated weekly):

Drew Brees: 61.2% | 8261 yards | 52 TDs | 37 INTs | 6.60 YPA | 82.2 rating

Mitch Trubisky: 63.4% | 8554 yards | 48 TDs | 29 INTs | 6.7 YPA | 85.8 rating
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Re: Potential Target: TE Eric Ebron

Wed Jan 22, 2020 9:24 pm

Thanks HRS for citing a specific game and calling out specific players. I have to admit I barely watched that last game so I'm willing to check the All-22 and focus on Leno.

The reason I'm asking is because the way I remember the year is more a story about the interior line being absolute dogshit, then added problems when Leno started getting those holding penalties called on run plays going away from his side.

2019 Oline IIRC

Season opens with Leno-Whitehair-Daniels-Long-Massie. Daniels immediately looked bad and threatened to bring Whitehair down. Next we started getting worried about Long - he was reaching and not punching. Is he done? Was it a good idea to put Daniels at center? Are he and Trubisky calling the right protections? Eventually they switched Daniels back to LG and things were better but still bad. Leno getting penalties called. Long totally done. Retire Kyle we love you but you're done. They bring in Coward and we try to give him a few games because he's being pressed into service but eventually conclude he's bad. Very bad. I remember watching a game and noting him losing vs his man on 9 straight plays. I don't remember the opponent but it wasn't Aaron Donald. Anyway, eventually they stop calling stuff on Leno and Massie goes out. Lucas is only medium bad which is a nice surprise. The fact that he's playing next to Coward and thus getting no help yet not embarrassing himself is actually impressive.

The whole time there are a ton of other distractions including Nagy playcalling, Trubisky everything, WR drops, TEs off the streets etc etc. I just don't come away from the season thinking Leno was the main problem and definitely don't remember caring about Massie at all.

** Pause as I fire up Game Pass All-22**

Pretty good first drive
Needed chipping help at times but run plays were going his direction and succeeding
Looks like a veteran relying on running his guy out of the play more than driving him back
Gets beat and gives up a QB hit on 3rd and 7 in the red zone. Mitch threw at 5 yard pass so they settled for field goal - Leno may have caused Mitch to make that call or maybe you credit the vikings with a good tackle on miller (no RAC)

Second drive
He gets beat badly on a screen going the other way but no impact
Right side of the line looks really bad here as Nagy calls two screens in a row (?!) that get destroyed
Nice throw by Mitch followed by nice run by Montgomer get team back on schedule
Mitch gets nice protection (whitehair looks good) and threads the needle to get Bears to the red zone
Another screen pass to the right wtf it’s not working Matt!!
Mitch bails out of a pretty clean pocket on 2nd and 9
Jailbreak on 3rd and 9 so they settle for a field goal again. Ugh just a bad series.

Third Drive
Vikings switch up their front and it’s effective
Daniels gets beat, then Leno leaves his guy unblocked rushing inside (?!) Daniels chases and loses. Bad look for both guys
Vikings bail us out with a penalty
Mitch throws a hospital ball toward Wims who makes a business decision to let it sail by
Wims slips and falls - send in megapunt. Bush downs it at the 1. Can he play SS? Would be nice if he could
Oline looked fine in that second series after rough start

Fourth Drive
Leno’s guy does a good job setting the edge, and the interior opens no hole for Cohen
Again there are two screens in a row (?!) and the Bears are facing third down
Leno gets arguably beat but more of a problem that Larsen-Lucas fail to pick up a blitzer

Fifth Drive
Monty with a nice run to the left. Leno in on a combo block that i’d like to see him get off, but it was a good gain
Three straight good runs to the left. Daniels and Holtz are getting it done. Leno along for the ride
Bears stick with the run and it’s working
I spot Bars getting beat and have a sad
Montgomery looking good
Leno could be getting more push but isn’t causing trouble
Vikings get sick of it and run blitz. Too many purple hats for our heroes
Trubisky with a nice throw - red zone
Monty with a nice run as Larsen and Lucas (!!) beat their guys and open a hole

Vikings have to punt. I can’t believe the Bears are only up by 12. Ugh.

Sixth Drive
Leno gets beat and Mitch has to throw it away; takes a hit
Mitch makes a bad throw
Daniels gets beat and Mitch is smart to dump it off. Cohen almost gets the 1st with some good RAC

Seventh Drive (so frustrated that the game is close)
Poorly blocked outside zone play but Monty makes it work somehow (I sorta love him?)
Same play, same result but this time they defend the cutback
WHY ARE WE RUNNING THE SAME PLAYS MULTIPLE TIMES IN A ROW
Whitehair gets beat and gives up a sack
Lucas gets driven into Mitch, Leno trying to run his guy behind Mitch but Mitch is backpedalling from Lucas’s guy - strip sack returned by DL for TD this hurts all over again

Eighth Drive (4min left)
Mitch putting together a nice drive with quick throws
Oline not looking great but not asked to do anything but stand in the way
Mitch decides to scramble despite adequate protection and open receivers
Mitch nearly throws a pick - i think they were spying him these last two plays
The beautiful 4th and 9 play follows (Leno getting pushed back badly, flushes Mitch)
Two bad runs by Monty
Ugh the thing where the Vikings tried to let the Bears score the TD but Nagy was playing for final FG

Game over we lose I hate you guys for making me re-watch this

Leno was average-to-good but the strip sack was a killer. Basically two bad plays by him but one was very costly because this team did so terribly in the red zone.

I'm sorry but I didn't come away dying to replace him. Every other player and the playcaller were also inconsistent. Since we can't fire everyone I think we look more at shoring up that right side and hopefully get more consistent overall.
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Re: Potential Target: TE Eric Ebron

Thu Jan 23, 2020 9:36 am

crueltyabc wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 9:24 pm
Thanks HRS for citing a specific game and calling out specific players. I have to admit I barely watched that last game so I'm willing to check the All-22 and focus on Leno.

The reason I'm asking is because the way I remember the year is more a story about the interior line being absolute dogshit, then added problems when Leno started getting those holding penalties called on run plays going away from his side.

2019 Oline IIRC

Season opens with Leno-Whitehair-Daniels-Long-Massie. Daniels immediately looked bad and threatened to bring Whitehair down. Next we started getting worried about Long - he was reaching and not punching. Is he done? Was it a good idea to put Daniels at center? Are he and Trubisky calling the right protections? Eventually they switched Daniels back to LG and things were better but still bad. Leno getting penalties called. Long totally done. Retire Kyle we love you but you're done. They bring in Coward and we try to give him a few games because he's being pressed into service but eventually conclude he's bad. Very bad. I remember watching a game and noting him losing vs his man on 9 straight plays. I don't remember the opponent but it wasn't Aaron Donald. Anyway, eventually they stop calling stuff on Leno and Massie goes out. Lucas is only medium bad which is a nice surprise. The fact that he's playing next to Coward and thus getting no help yet not embarrassing himself is actually impressive.

The whole time there are a ton of other distractions including Nagy playcalling, Trubisky everything, WR drops, TEs off the streets etc etc. I just don't come away from the season thinking Leno was the main problem and definitely don't remember caring about Massie at all.

** Pause as I fire up Game Pass All-22**

Pretty good first drive
Needed chipping help at times but run plays were going his direction and succeeding
Looks like a veteran relying on running his guy out of the play more than driving him back
Gets beat and gives up a QB hit on 3rd and 7 in the red zone. Mitch threw at 5 yard pass so they settled for field goal - Leno may have caused Mitch to make that call or maybe you credit the vikings with a good tackle on miller (no RAC)

Second drive
He gets beat badly on a screen going the other way but no impact
Right side of the line looks really bad here as Nagy calls two screens in a row (?!) that get destroyed
Nice throw by Mitch followed by nice run by Montgomer get team back on schedule
Mitch gets nice protection (whitehair looks good) and threads the needle to get Bears to the red zone
Another screen pass to the right wtf it’s not working Matt!!
Mitch bails out of a pretty clean pocket on 2nd and 9
Jailbreak on 3rd and 9 so they settle for a field goal again. Ugh just a bad series.

Third Drive
Vikings switch up their front and it’s effective
Daniels gets beat, then Leno leaves his guy unblocked rushing inside (?!) Daniels chases and loses. Bad look for both guys
Vikings bail us out with a penalty
Mitch throws a hospital ball toward Wims who makes a business decision to let it sail by
Wims slips and falls - send in megapunt. Bush downs it at the 1. Can he play SS? Would be nice if he could
Oline looked fine in that second series after rough start

Fourth Drive
Leno’s guy does a good job setting the edge, and the interior opens no hole for Cohen
Again there are two screens in a row (?!) and the Bears are facing third down
Leno gets arguably beat but more of a problem that Larsen-Lucas fail to pick up a blitzer

Fifth Drive
Monty with a nice run to the left. Leno in on a combo block that i’d like to see him get off, but it was a good gain
Three straight good runs to the left. Daniels and Holtz are getting it done. Leno along for the ride
Bears stick with the run and it’s working
I spot Bars getting beat and have a sad
Montgomery looking good
Leno could be getting more push but isn’t causing trouble
Vikings get sick of it and run blitz. Too many purple hats for our heroes
Trubisky with a nice throw - red zone
Monty with a nice run as Larsen and Lucas (!!) beat their guys and open a hole

Vikings have to punt. I can’t believe the Bears are only up by 12. Ugh.

Sixth Drive
Leno gets beat and Mitch has to throw it away; takes a hit
Mitch makes a bad throw
Daniels gets beat and Mitch is smart to dump it off. Cohen almost gets the 1st with some good RAC

Seventh Drive (so frustrated that the game is close)
Poorly blocked outside zone play but Monty makes it work somehow (I sorta love him?)
Same play, same result but this time they defend the cutback
WHY ARE WE RUNNING THE SAME PLAYS MULTIPLE TIMES IN A ROW
Whitehair gets beat and gives up a sack
Lucas gets driven into Mitch, Leno trying to run his guy behind Mitch but Mitch is backpedalling from Lucas’s guy - strip sack returned by DL for TD this hurts all over again

Eighth Drive (4min left)
Mitch putting together a nice drive with quick throws
Oline not looking great but not asked to do anything but stand in the way
Mitch decides to scramble despite adequate protection and open receivers
Mitch nearly throws a pick - i think they were spying him these last two plays
The beautiful 4th and 9 play follows (Leno getting pushed back badly, flushes Mitch)
Two bad runs by Monty
Ugh the thing where the Vikings tried to let the Bears score the TD but Nagy was playing for final FG

Game over we lose I hate you guys for making me re-watch this

Leno was average-to-good but the strip sack was a killer. Basically two bad plays by him but one was very costly because this team did so terribly in the red zone.

I'm sorry but I didn't come away dying to replace him. Every other player and the playcaller were also inconsistent. Since we can't fire everyone I think we look more at shoring up that right side and hopefully get more consistent overall.
Maybe try watching a game where the opposing team was playing their starters and trying to win?
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Re: Potential Target: TE Eric Ebron

Thu Jan 23, 2020 10:12 am

dplank wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 7:22 pm
If you're basis for argument is assuming that the other person is a moron and literally doesn't understand salary cap and/or football business, you probably don't have a strong argument to begin with. I understand it better than you know, made my living off it for years. I've yet to hear you, or anyone else, respond to my actual, more nuanced suggestion of a one year spending bubble at the position, with a Massie exit the next year returning us to normal. Or, if you please, Massie might be a movable piece. His contract isn't that egregious. My point is, and has been, you need to get more creative here than just accepting our fate that our OL is going to suck again next year. I'm firmly against throwing seasons away, and IMO that's what we're doing if we roll with Leno/Massie as our starting tackles.
So you want to invest upwards of 30% of the cap in 4 players, two of which would be sitting on the bench?
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Re: Potential Target: TE Eric Ebron

Thu Jan 23, 2020 10:16 am

Drone7 wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 8:24 pm
Keep in mind that Leno is 6/3 and was a 7th round pick. A great 7th rounder, but he went there partly because of his physical limitations. Has long arms, but not many 6/3 OTs in the NFL. Massie is big, but a 4th rounder. He's not real agile and doesn't bend well so he's strictly a RT. The Cards let him go and their OL wasn't that good. So the Bears haven't recently invested in drafting good athletes at the OT position. This run scheme pulls tackles a lot so they often have to pick up more athletic defenders in space. And they aren't athletic enough at times to get position AND leverage.

Compare them to the Chiefs that run a similar scheme. Fisher was a #1 overall pick in the draft; Schwartz was a 2nd rounder (CL).
He's 1/8 of an inch under 6'4", sir.
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Re: Potential Target: TE Eric Ebron

Thu Jan 23, 2020 10:18 am

G08 wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 10:16 am
Drone7 wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 8:24 pm
Keep in mind that Leno is 6/3 and was a 7th round pick. A great 7th rounder, but he went there partly because of his physical limitations. Has long arms, but not many 6/3 OTs in the NFL. Massie is big, but a 4th rounder. He's not real agile and doesn't bend well so he's strictly a RT. The Cards let him go and their OL wasn't that good. So the Bears haven't recently invested in drafting good athletes at the OT position. This run scheme pulls tackles a lot so they often have to pick up more athletic defenders in space. And they aren't athletic enough at times to get position AND leverage.

Compare them to the Chiefs that run a similar scheme. Fisher was a #1 overall pick in the draft; Schwartz was a 2nd rounder (CL).
He's 1/8 of an inch under 6'4", sir.
SEE I'M NOT THE ONLY ONE G08
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Re: Potential Target: TE Eric Ebron

Thu Jan 23, 2020 10:19 am

@dplank I strongly like the idea of having a hedge to Leno/Massie performing poorly in next season, but I don't want to do that by typing up cap space in a FA.

Draft someone high, make them your swing and give them time to get stronger and learn NFL techniques. God forbid Leno/Massie gets hurt or plays like shit, you have a cheap and hopefully talented kid ready to slide in at a moment's notice.
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First 41 starts in NFL (updated weekly):

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Mitch Trubisky: 63.4% | 8554 yards | 48 TDs | 29 INTs | 6.7 YPA | 85.8 rating
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Re: Potential Target: TE Eric Ebron

Thu Jan 23, 2020 10:19 am

wab wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 10:18 am
G08 wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 10:16 am


He's 1/8 of an inch under 6'4", sir.
SEE I'M NOT THE ONLY ONE G08
I swear to God the only reason I know his combine height is because our incessant back-and-forth about Leno :rofl:
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First 41 starts in NFL (updated weekly):

Drew Brees: 61.2% | 8261 yards | 52 TDs | 37 INTs | 6.60 YPA | 82.2 rating

Mitch Trubisky: 63.4% | 8554 yards | 48 TDs | 29 INTs | 6.7 YPA | 85.8 rating
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Talking/Arguing/Vomiting about the Offensive Line

Thu Jan 23, 2020 10:26 am

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Re: Talking/Arguing/Vomiting about the Offensive Line

Thu Jan 23, 2020 10:29 am

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Re: Potential Target: TE Eric Ebron

Thu Jan 23, 2020 11:16 am

In my perfect scenario, Bars fixes the worst hole on the line at RG. Leno and Massie take a step forward with some new coaching techniques. Keep Lucas and draft a developmental swing tackle. Put Daniel at center and leave him there. Put Whitehair at LG and keep him there.

Also, best Eric Ebron thread on the internet, ever.
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Re: Potential Target: TE Eric Ebron

Thu Jan 23, 2020 11:22 am

AZ_Bearfan wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 11:16 am
In my perfect scenario, Bars fixes the worst hole on the line at RG. Leno and Massie take a step forward with some new coaching techniques. Keep Lucas and draft a developmental swing tackle. Put Daniel at center and leave him there. Put Whitehair at LG and keep him there.

Also, best Eric Ebron thread on the internet, ever.

I've moved almost two pages of posts from the Ebron thread into this OL discussion so that we can talk about Ebron/TE in peace.
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Re: Potential Target: TE Eric Ebron

Thu Jan 23, 2020 11:29 am

G08 wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 10:19 am
@dplank I strongly like the idea of having a hedge to Leno/Massie performing poorly in next season, but I don't want to do that by typing up cap space in a FA.

Draft someone high, make them your swing and give them time to get stronger and learn NFL techniques. God forbid Leno/Massie gets hurt or plays like shit, you have a cheap and hopefully talented kid ready to slide in at a moment's notice.
Dude. Trent Williams has 1 year left at 12.5M, and he just sat out last year trying to get out of the Redskins shithole, so you know they want to move him. I'm reading all sorts of articles from other teams talking about making deals to get him.

Leonard Floyd is currently pending a 13.2M cap hit, which is calculated in our 2020 cap projections already. So trade or drop him, and it's paid for. Or, look at it this way:

We have to sign a swing tackle and we have to sign a starting OG. We can draft one, but not both, we're going to have to spend some money somewhere. So let's say we draft a G, that means we HAVE to sign a FA swing T, right? What's that cost for a decent backup level T, 2M? We'd have a rookie scale G replacing Kyle Longs cap hit, which last year was 5.6M. So combine the Kyle Long reduction with the removal of the need to pay for a swing T, and you have 7.6M of free money to spend to keep your cap expendature on OL exactly the same! Trent Williams costs 12.5M, so you are 4.9M off if we got him.

If that wasn't written clearly, the sum of it all is that we could add Trent fucking Williams to our team and only spend 4.9M more on our OL as we spent in 2019. 4.9M IS NOTHING! And think about the difference replacing Leno with Williams? AND Leno as a swing tackle is GREAT insurance in case of injury, so we're primo with our swing tackle situation.

This is a NO BRAINER. I wish I had Pace's number....
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Re: Potential Target: TE Eric Ebron

Thu Jan 23, 2020 1:27 pm

UOK wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 3:33 pm
wab wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 2:57 pm

It won't be addressed in earnest until 2021 at the earliest. So.... I don't know what there is to solve outside of signing and/or drafting a developmental swing tackle.

Barring injury, those two are the starting tackles for 2020. I don't know what else to tell you.
Leno and Massie as your starting tackles isn't THAT bad. If their health goes south and their play follows, then the contracts can be looked at with the clarity of retrospect (which football fans LOVE to do). Until the shit hits the fan, you have to assume their health is stable, supports an above average performance which earns them above average pay.

They had a terrible year last year, but it's hard to properly evaluate the impact of their regression when the entire offense collectively drowned. It's better to go into 2020 hoping for the best and planning for the worst - draft and sign quality depth. If you go into 2020 with your primary backups being Lucas and Coward, you've deliberately sabotaged your offensive line.
I don't think you can pin this on Lucas or need to be concerned about upgrading him.

Lucas started 6 games at RT and Massie 10.
Montgomery had 6 games where he had 50+ yds and 4+ ypc.
1/6 of the "good games" came in the 10 Massie starts.
5/6 of the "good games" came in the 6 Lucas starts.

I don't have data on how the pass protection went, but PFF graded Massie at 63 and Lucas at 72 (which is better than ANY season Massie has had in Chicago).

I think it's more accurate to say "the Bears should feel fortunate that an injury sat Massie and pushed Lucas onto the field".
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Re: Potential Target: TE Eric Ebron

Thu Jan 23, 2020 6:25 pm

crueltyabc wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 9:24 pm
Thanks HRS for citing a specific game and calling out specific players.
You're welcome.
crueltyabc wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 9:24 pm
** Pause as I fire up Game Pass All-22**

(Leno) Gets beat and gives up a QB hit on 3rd and 7 in the red zone. 
(Leno) gets beat badly on a screen going the other way 
Leno leaves his guy unblocked rushing inside (?!) 
Leno gets arguably beat
Three straight good runs to the left. Daniels and Holtz are getting it done. Leno along for the ride
Leno could be getting more push but isn’t causing trouble
Leno gets beat and Mitch has to throw it away; takes a hit
Lucas gets driven into Mitch, Leno trying to run his guy behind Mitch but Mitch is backpedalling from Lucas’s guy - strip sack 
Leno getting pushed back badly, flushes Mitch

Leno was average-to-good but the strip sack was a killer. Basically two bad plays by him but one was very costly because this team did so terribly in the red zone.

I'm sorry but I didn't come away dying to replace him.
Interesting conclusion given the number of times you spotted Leno getting beaten! I don't agree with dplank on some things, but he is right that we shouldn't mistake lacklustre or mediocre play for adequate let alone 'good' and this game was against the Vikings backups.

Bears Barroom's 'The Tape Never Lies Series' on YouTube is a pretty good watch. If you haven't seen any of them then they're worth checking out. Leno's poor play crops up a lot, but there's plenty of criticism to go around as well as highlighting the good.
crueltyabc wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 9:24 pm
Game over we lose I hate you guys for making me re-watch this
Dude, did you forget we actually won this one?!

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