Formerly a Wade Phillips thread, now "I Hate Chuck Pagano"

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UOK
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Formerly a Wade Phillips thread, now "I Hate Chuck Pagano"

Mon Jan 06, 2020 3:46 pm

Thoughts?

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wab
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Formerly a Wade Phillips thread, now "I Hate Chuck Pagano"

Mon Jan 06, 2020 4:51 pm

I'm not unhappy with Pagano.
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Formerly a Wade Phillips thread, now "I Hate Chuck Pagano"

Mon Jan 06, 2020 4:54 pm

Hell, I just meant as an assistant, consultant, etc.
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Formerly a Wade Phillips thread, now "I Hate Chuck Pagano"

Mon Jan 06, 2020 5:11 pm

I was pounding the table for Trestman to hire him as DC but that ship has long sailed. Like Phillips a lot as a DC, but Pagano was beyond find this season.
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First 41 starts in NFL (updated weekly):

Drew Brees: 61.2% | 8261 yards | 52 TDs | 37 INTs | 6.60 YPA | 82.2 rating

Mitch Trubisky: 63.4% | 8554 yards | 48 TDs | 29 INTs | 6.7 YPA | 85.8 rating
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Formerly a Wade Phillips thread, now "I Hate Chuck Pagano"

Mon Jan 06, 2020 5:32 pm

wab wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 4:51 pm
I'm not unhappy with Pagano.
wab, you seem like a good dude and I'm new here, so I want you to know honestly this isn't an attack or anything like that.

But Pagano is TERRIBLE. He took an ELITE defense, and took it multiple steps backwards this season. Hicks was hurt, that can't be denied, but our defense wasn't close to the same as it was under Vic. And what's really telling is that our defense, which was stout as hell for the past few years under Vic, and all the sudden became soft. Coverages were soft, run defense was soft. We played on our heels, trying to outsmart people rather than just lining up and attacking them man up. This is the same issue folks have with Nagy and our run game, we gets too cute and when we run power our OL suddenly looks aggressive and competent. Same goes on the other side. Why did Nichols, RRH, Roquan (who was playing out of position, which Pagano later admitted), Goldman, and yes even Mack all take big steps back this year? All of them had bad seasons? I think not, it was Pagano's style that he brought here from Indy. Our defense this year looked like the Indy defenses under Pagano. Soft coverage, bend but don't break, let teams move the ball and try to hold them to FG's, which we did a decent job of. But teams owned TOP on us, and not just because of our offense. Our defense couldn't stop the run consistently or get off the field on 3rd downs. We did not get steady pressure on the QB like we had done the last few years. He relies on gimmicky DB blitzes, when we have the horses up front to just line up and beat their man.

Wade Phillips would be a DRASTIC improvement for us. His defense this year wasn't nearly up to his normal standard, but that guy has a long track record of success. Pagano doesn't, he had one good year in Baltimore running someone else's defense, then pretty much sucked in Indy.

But, I am fully aware that we aren't going to do it, so I guess I'm just blowing off steam. Dagnabbit.
Chuck Pagano's defensive rankings in 5 years with Indy: 26th, 20th, 11th, 26th, 30th, and 30th.
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Formerly a Wade Phillips thread, now "I Hate Chuck Pagano"

Mon Jan 06, 2020 5:42 pm

Pagano was much more aggressive than the bend but don't break Fangio (who hardly ever blitzed). Akhem Hicks is a force to be reckoned with at DE and his prescience was missed dearly for most of the season. Teams could devote two blockers on Mack every play because Hicks was not there to deal with. The Bears had no one that was crashing the middle of the pocket so the TOs and sacks were down because of Hick, not because of Pagano.
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Formerly a Wade Phillips thread, now "I Hate Chuck Pagano"

Mon Jan 06, 2020 5:49 pm

I thought Pagano was solid this year, honestly. We have a lot of talent on defense, lost Fangio, and still only gave up 0.9 more points per game. The takeaways went down, true, but I'm beginning to think 2018 was more of an anomaly if you look at the past 5 seasons:

2015: 17
2016: 11
2017: 22
2018: 36
2019: 19
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First 41 starts in NFL (updated weekly):

Drew Brees: 61.2% | 8261 yards | 52 TDs | 37 INTs | 6.60 YPA | 82.2 rating

Mitch Trubisky: 63.4% | 8554 yards | 48 TDs | 29 INTs | 6.7 YPA | 85.8 rating
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The Marshall Plan
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Formerly a Wade Phillips thread, now "I Hate Chuck Pagano"

Mon Jan 06, 2020 6:27 pm

I do not understand the negativity about Pagano.

The defense was constantly behind the eight ball because of the offense yet they wound up being a top 10 unit. Works for me.
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Formerly a Wade Phillips thread, now "I Hate Chuck Pagano"

Mon Jan 06, 2020 6:48 pm

Agreed. The offense leading the league in three and outs has to account for something. Those guys looked gassed in the 4th quarter of pretty much every game.
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BR0D1E86
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Formerly a Wade Phillips thread, now "I Hate Chuck Pagano"

Mon Jan 06, 2020 6:49 pm

The only real difference from last year to this was turnovers. And our turnovers are in line with what they were for several years other than last year's anomaly.

I really don't have a problem with Pagano. Our offense played at a 3 win level and we won 8 games. The defense isn't a big problem.

Now if Wade is interested in some sort of advisory role rather than a DC position where he helps cook up cool blitzes, sure. But we're not changing DC's right now
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Formerly a Wade Phillips thread, now "I Hate Chuck Pagano"

Mon Jan 06, 2020 7:34 pm

I felt there were games when our D was way too soft, the Raiders game being the obvious example that comes to mind. Being a northerner I hate going to London for work, but if I have to you can be damned sure I actually show up and do my job. Our D didn't.

I'd love Phillips here but I really don't see us canning Pags after one season where there have been significant injuries on the roster.

In any case, I think the bigger need is replacing offensive playcalling. I'd much rather our Head Coach be a Head Coach and stop his ADHD tricksy nonsense.
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Re: Wade Phillips done in LA - Bears should find a way to get him here

Mon Jan 06, 2020 7:57 pm

Johnny Bollocks wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 7:34 pm
I felt there were games when our D was way too soft, the Raiders game being the obvious example that comes to mind. Being a northerner I hate going to London for work, but if I have to you can be damned sure I actually show up and do my job. Our D didn't.
Teams have clunkers. Even the borderline historic defense last year have up 31 points, 380 passing yards and 160 rushing yards to Brock Osweiler and the Dolphins last year. The Raiders game was not a good one, but I really see no point in even discussing the upheaval that would accompany changing our DC in addition to everything else.
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Re: Wade Phillips done in LA - Bears should find a way to get him here

Mon Jan 06, 2020 8:30 pm

AZ_Bearfan wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 6:48 pm
Agreed. The offense leading the league in three and outs has to account for something. Those guys looked gassed in the 4th quarter of pretty much every game.
Bingo.
Mikefive's theory: The only time you KNOW that a sports team player, coach or management member is being 100% honest is when they're NOT reciting "the company line".

Go back to leather helmets, NFL.
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Re: Wade Phillips done in LA - Bears should find a way to get him here

Mon Jan 06, 2020 8:31 pm

You can throw numbers out all you want but so can I. They failed the two simplest eyeball tests: when the opposing team runs, who pushes who backwards. We got pushed back more often than not, that wasn't true in 2018. Raiders game was just one example, it was that way a lot more this year than last year. And when the opposing team passes, are we generating pressure on the QB consistently? The answer here is no we didn't, but again that wasn't true in 2018. Seemed like we had very consistent pressure in 2018.

If you need numbers for proof, here they are:

For the pass rush test: we had 50 sacks in 2018, we only had 32 this year. That's nearly a 40% drop off. I agree the turnover level wasn't sustainable, but sack levels are, aren't they? You putting all that on Hicks? I'm not.

For the rush defense test: in 2018, we gave up 3.8 ypc and an avg of 80 rushing yards per game. That ranked 1st in the NFL. In 2019, we gave up 4.1 ypc and an avg of 102 rushing yards per game, 9th in the league behind Indy and Oakland. You putting all that on Hicks?

Floyd regressed. Goldman regressed. RRH regressed. Nichols regressed (although he has an excuse). Mack regressed for pete's sake, if there's one guy you can count on playing at a high level its him, but he was half the player this year under Pagano.

Bottom line, we went from the #1 defense in the league, to barely a top 10 defense. There's only 30 teams, top 10 isn't all that big an accomplishment, especially with the talent we have. We played less physical football, and it showed. I don't know why you guys are satisfied with a guy who took over the keys of a ferrari, and can't figure out how to make it go faster than 55MPH. We went sharply backwards, not just in turnovers. With the same roster. I can't believe you guys are satisfied with that, I'm not. I'd give Wade Phillips the key to this car in a heartbeat.
Chuck Pagano's defensive rankings in 5 years with Indy: 26th, 20th, 11th, 26th, 30th, and 30th.
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Re: Wade Phillips done in LA - Bears should find a way to get him here

Mon Jan 06, 2020 8:49 pm

dplank wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 8:31 pm
You can throw numbers out all you want but so can I. They failed the two simplest eyeball tests: when the opposing team runs, who pushes who backwards. We got pushed back more often than not, that wasn't true in 2018. Raiders game was just one example, it was that way a lot more this year than last year. And when the opposing team passes, are we generating pressure on the QB consistently? The answer here is no we didn't, but again that wasn't true in 2018. Seemed like we had very consistent pressure in 2018.

If you need numbers for proof, here they are:

For the pass rush test: we had 50 sacks in 2018, we only had 32 this year. That's nearly a 40% drop off. I agree the turnover level wasn't sustainable, but sack levels are, aren't they? You putting all that on Hicks? I'm not.

For the rush defense test: in 2018, we gave up 3.8 ypc and an avg of 80 rushing yards per game. That ranked 1st in the NFL. In 2019, we gave up 4.1 ypc and an avg of 102 rushing yards per game, 9th in the league behind Indy and Oakland. You putting all that on Hicks?

Floyd regressed. Goldman regressed. RRH regressed. Nichols regressed (although he has an excuse). Mack regressed for pete's sake, if there's one guy you can count on playing at a high level its him, but he was half the player this year under Pagano.

Bottom line, we went from the #1 defense in the league, to barely a top 10 defense. There's only 30 teams, top 10 isn't all that big an accomplishment, especially with the talent we have. We played less physical football, and it showed. I don't know why you guys are satisfied with a guy who took over the keys of a ferrari, and can't figure out how to make it go faster than 55MPH. We went sharply backwards, not just in turnovers. With the same roster. I can't believe you guys are satisfied with that, I'm not. I'd give Wade Phillips the key to this car in a heartbeat.
It’s not the same players, Amos and Callahan left in free agency and Hicks was hurt most of the season, he’s extremely disruptive in the run game.

Last years defense was an anomaly with the turnovers this year they regressed to the mean, as many expected.

A top 10 defense in conjunction with an impotent offense that led the league in 3 outs is impressive.

Also, the Rams had a worse defense and they were healthier and had a better offense.

So if Pagano isn’t good enough after one year when the defense didn’t have its second best player for most of the season, why is someone whose defense didn’t perform as well as the Bears replace him?
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Re: Wade Phillips done in LA - Bears should find a way to get him here

Mon Jan 06, 2020 9:16 pm

I tend to be in the school that I don't think Pagano was all that good.

I would take Phillips over him easily
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Re: Wade Phillips done in LA - Bears should find a way to get him here

Tue Jan 07, 2020 8:50 am

I'm not a big Pagano fan. Sacks were down from 50 to 32. Turnovers were down from 36 to 19. But the team was 4th in points allowed, which is the bottom line.
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Re: Wade Phillips done in LA - Bears should find a way to get him here

Tue Jan 07, 2020 8:56 am

dplank wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 5:32 pm
wab wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 4:51 pm
I'm not unhappy with Pagano.
wab, you seem like a good dude and I'm new here, so I want you to know honestly this isn't an attack or anything like that.

But Pagano is TERRIBLE. He took an ELITE defense, and took it multiple steps backwards this season. Hicks was hurt, that can't be denied, but our defense wasn't close to the same as it was under Vic. And what's really telling is that our defense, which was stout as hell for the past few years under Vic, and all the sudden became soft. Coverages were soft, run defense was soft. We played on our heels, trying to outsmart people rather than just lining up and attacking them man up. This is the same issue folks have with Nagy and our run game, we gets too cute and when we run power our OL suddenly looks aggressive and competent. Same goes on the other side. Why did Nichols, RRH, Roquan (who was playing out of position, which Pagano later admitted), Goldman, and yes even Mack all take big steps back this year? All of them had bad seasons? I think not, it was Pagano's style that he brought here from Indy. Our defense this year looked like the Indy defenses under Pagano. Soft coverage, bend but don't break, let teams move the ball and try to hold them to FG's, which we did a decent job of. But teams owned TOP on us, and not just because of our offense. Our defense couldn't stop the run consistently or get off the field on 3rd downs. We did not get steady pressure on the QB like we had done the last few years. He relies on gimmicky DB blitzes, when we have the horses up front to just line up and beat their man.

Wade Phillips would be a DRASTIC improvement for us. His defense this year wasn't nearly up to his normal standard, but that guy has a long track record of success. Pagano doesn't, he had one good year in Baltimore running someone else's defense, then pretty much sucked in Indy.

But, I am fully aware that we aren't going to do it, so I guess I'm just blowing off steam. Dagnabbit.
It was an elite D by most every overall metric while spending an eternity on the field and their backs against the wall with field position constantly. What do you want? lol

The D was going to regress, no matter what. You cannot sustain a turnover rate like 2018.

It was also every bit as good as last season until Hicks went down. He also lost Trevathan and Smith to IR.

The D was the only thing that kept us in games. Jesus.

They surrendered 18 points per game. The league average offense scores 24 points per game. The Bears only surrendered more than that TWICE. They held opponents under TWENTY POINTS in 10 games.

That's a MORE than good enough defense. If you have just a middling offense - you win a ton of games with that. Hell, even just a subpar offense instead of an "atrocious" one and there's no reason not to be 10-6.

And it's not even like I'm some big Pagano guy. But to call him TERRIBLE and act like there was some horrific regression with the D while blaming him for it? Give me a break, guy.
Year 3 Starting (updated yearly)

Brees (11-4): 65.5% (7th) 7.9 Y/A (7th) 27 TD (7th) 6.8 TD% (4th) 7 INT 1.8 INT% (3rd) 104 Rating (3rd)

Trubisky (8-7): 63.2% (18th) 6.1 Y/A (32nd) 17 TD (27th) 3.3 TD% (30th) 10 INT 1.9 INT% (15th) 83 Rating (28th)
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Re: Wade Phillips done in LA - Bears should find a way to get him here

Tue Jan 07, 2020 8:58 am

When our defense was healthy (physically and mentally- Smith) I thought Pag's was very aggressive and our defense was really good. Once Hicks was out, then Smith, Nichols, Amakumara, Danny T, and others he got soft and wasn't nearly as aggressive. I also thought Goldman wasn't the same player he was in the past once Hicks went down. Hicks is the driving force of this defense. He seems to set that aggressive tone so his loss was really hard. The weird situation with Smith right at a time when he was most needed, just completely F'd up everything also. It seemed to stun the players, IMO. Nichols being hurt early didn't help as he is an up and coming player. Lastly, Mack seemed to run out of gas midway due to Floyd not helping take double and triple teams off him.

This defense needs some help with depth so Pag's can stay aggressive. I think injuries had more to do with the non-aggressive second half of the season than Pag's himself. That being said, if Wade wants to come in as an assistant in some way, jeez, you have to take him don't you?
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Re: Wade Phillips done in LA - Bears should find a way to get him here

Tue Jan 07, 2020 9:16 am

I love Wade and think he's a top defensive coordinator in the league, and once again he's the fall guy when things arent going well for the team he coaches. It's maddening to me.
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Re: Wade Phillips done in LA - Bears should find a way to get him here

Tue Jan 07, 2020 10:05 am

I think there is aggressive because of playing calling (Blitzes, etc.) and aggressive - players ready to go fire off the ball PLAY with that aggression.

Maybe there was some catch up for Pagano - time away, new team, etc.

But the amount of hands up palms upturned - what are we doing exactly - I saw from the Defense this year was up markedly. Obviously was the worst against the Raiders when they didn't seem to be set on some plays all together.
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Re: Wade Phillips done in LA - Bears should find a way to get him here

Tue Jan 07, 2020 10:13 am

It's the first year in the Pagano system. Jesus guys. I mean, this whole town is about launching coaches and front office staff for the perceived greener grass. There was no way the defense was going to be better than last year. Then add the injuries, new scheme, other teams adjustments.

The defense is not our problem. In any way, shape, or form.
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Re: Wade Phillips done in LA - Bears should find a way to get him here

Tue Jan 07, 2020 11:35 am

If your formula is to "win with defense", then you need a top 3 defense, not a 9th ranked defense. A 9th ranked defense will require a Top 10 offense to win consistently. We're so far off from that, we need to be elite on D.

Our defense went backwards at least 30% across the board, and in many areas 60% or higher. Keeping last years #1 defense isn't the standard, but falling back this far is. Everyone points to turnover levels not being sustainable, and that is absolutely true. But there's no excuse for our rush defense to have fallen off (from 1st to 9th) and for our pass rush to have fallen off (from 50 sacks to 32). There's no excuse for that, we had the same roster.

Hicks got hurt this year, well Mack missed basically a month last year. Nichols hurt his hand, well Floyd broke his hand last year. Amos/Callahan switched to Dix/Skrine. Callahan was ended on IR last year and was on IR the whole season this year. These are lame excuses IMO.

If you want a middling defense, then fine, Pagano is your guy. But with our roster construction/salary cap spend on D, you can't settle for that. We need to be Top 3.
Chuck Pagano's defensive rankings in 5 years with Indy: 26th, 20th, 11th, 26th, 30th, and 30th.
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Re: Wade Phillips done in LA - Bears should find a way to get him here

Tue Jan 07, 2020 12:12 pm

Some people seem to be forgetting just how awesome the defense was through the first 4 games of the season. In fact, the first half of the Raiders game aside they were pretty awesome through the first 5. (If it hadn't been for Pierre-Louis stupidly running into the punter they would have held Oakland to zero in the second half.)

As injuries mounted and the offense continued to be inept, the defense struggled to maintain that extremely high standard.
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Re: Wade Phillips done in LA - Bears should find a way to get him here

Tue Jan 07, 2020 1:02 pm

dplank wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 11:35 am
If you want a middling defense, then fine, Pagano is your guy. But with our roster construction/salary cap spend on D, you can't settle for that. We need to be Top 3.
I swear I don't try to pick on your posts, but on what planet is a top 10 defense in nearly every meaningful category, considered "middling".

Do you know how many top 3 defenses Wade Phillips has had?
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Re: Wade Phillips done in LA - Bears should find a way to get him here

Tue Jan 07, 2020 1:55 pm

I know 9th sounds good and all, but there's only 30 teams dude. So really, it's not anything to be proud of especially when we were 1 last year. It's just barely above the middle third, barely. So fine, we're slightly above middling because we squeaked out of the middle third. And that's a purely statistical view, which doesn't tell the whole story.

Either way, it doesn't excuse the giant step back we took in 12 months with the same roster. Rush defense was significantly worse. Pass rush was significantly worse. Turnovers were significantly down. Same roster, different results. It all points to Pagano.

Look at it this way. If a new coach took over the Bulls in '96, and the next year we barely made the playoffs, would you be saying "Hey, we still made the playoffs, that's better than middling, coach did fine!" The expectation with that talent is higher than that. And the expectation with our talent on D is higher than the 9th rated rush defense, 32 sacks, and 9th overall D. Pagano took us backwards.

My only hope here is that we needed an adjustment year with him.
Chuck Pagano's defensive rankings in 5 years with Indy: 26th, 20th, 11th, 26th, 30th, and 30th.
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Re: Wade Phillips done in LA - Bears should find a way to get him here

Tue Jan 07, 2020 2:28 pm

I live in So Cal and I am laughing at what I'm reading...not because it doesn't have limited merit, but because everything pointed to by those who don't like Pagano are what Rams fans are pointing to as the problem with Phillips, sans the he's too old or the New NFL has outdistanced him.

Put me in the category of happy with him. I don't blame Pagano for one damn thing... Hicks got hurt and the season was on a very thin line for success because our offense was such a shit show.

High amounts of takeaways occur when teams are playing to catch up and our offense rarely got in to the endzone, let alone built a strong lead.

Glad to have him as I thought we would be worse with a healthy D...He did great and lost a lot of players to injury, had one of the most inept offenses in Bears history (and that is hard to do), and oh yeah, Special T (Trubisky) inspires no one to give 110% let alone move mountains.
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Re: Wade Phillips done in LA - Bears should find a way to get him here

Tue Jan 07, 2020 2:34 pm

Don't forget, special teams didn't really help out much either.

Last year's TO #s were just out of this world, no way they were getting close to that this year. pagano did fine, no reason to let him go or hire someone else.

Peeps need to take a step back. I hope most of you all are not the heads of companies, you would be a firing bunch of sons a bitches!!
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Re: Wade Phillips done in LA - Bears should find a way to get him here

Tue Jan 07, 2020 2:37 pm

Why do people keep bringing up the turnover numbers when it's been said a dozen times that regression was expected? Forget about the turnovers, rush defense and sacks tell the tale. We went back mightily on both.

And, I happen to be the head of a company, for the third time now. If I hired someone to run my sales group and in the first year we saw 40% less sales then the year before, yea, I'd fire them. If you settle for average you'll get average at best.
Chuck Pagano's defensive rankings in 5 years with Indy: 26th, 20th, 11th, 26th, 30th, and 30th.
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Re: Wade Phillips done in LA - Bears should find a way to get him here

Tue Jan 07, 2020 2:42 pm

Chifaninca wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 2:28 pm
I live in So Cal and I am laughing at what I'm reading...not because it doesn't have limited merit, but because everything pointed to by those who don't like Pagano are what Rams fans are pointing to as the problem with Phillips, sans the he's too old or the New NFL has outdistanced him.

Put me in the category of happy with him. I don't blame Pagano for one damn thing... Hicks got hurt and the season was on a very thin line for success because our offense was such a shit show.

High amounts of takeaways occur when teams are playing to catch up and our offense rarely got in to the endzone, let alone built a strong lead.

Glad to have him as I thought we would be worse with a healthy D...He did great and lost a lot of players to injury, had one of the most inept offenses in Bears history (and that is hard to do), and oh yeah, Special T (Trubisky) inspires no one to give 110% let alone move mountains.
Well said. Fangio was better, but he was also much more experienced. Pagano will watch the film and do a better job in year 2. He doesn't strike me as stubborn or closed off from the players and position coaches under him. Even though it is still a 3/4 defense, he has altered it, so it takes time for the players. He needed to get the rust off with game-planning and calls.

Very concerned about the offensive coaching and personnel. That is where several changes need to be made.

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