Bears need real help at RB

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The Marshall Plan
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Re: Bears need real help at RB

Tue Jan 28, 2020 1:01 pm

wab wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 10:55 am
The Marshall Plan wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 5:35 am


If that's true, then Pace and Nagy are dumber than I thought.

We had Jordan Howard. Can we at least agree that Howard > Davis?

Please don't retort with that Davis is some sort of threat in the passing game.
No one cares about Howard anymore. This was a discussion about what happened with Davis.
Yes it is a discussion about Davis and my point is that the front office are morons for trading Jordan Howard who is a better RB and signing Davis instead.
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wab
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Re: Bears need real help at RB

Tue Jan 28, 2020 1:09 pm

But the argument isn't mutually exclusive.
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Dardango
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Re: Bears need real help at RB

Tue Jan 28, 2020 2:18 pm

It doesn't matter if they bring in another running back or fix the running game. The problem is a coach with an Arena League brain who doesn't like to run the ball. That's as big a problem as Trubisky. We saw flashes of what Montgomery could do and how the offense could win when Nagy was forced to run out of the I-formation. He does that a for a bit, gets bored and goes back to "his offense" which has been problematic for two seasons now. The KC playoff loss in '18 was the ultimate example of Nagy's "Be You (he really means BE ME)" mania at its worse. He blew that game despite having great backs, a great O-line, a big lead and home-field advantage, all because he abandoned the run. He did the same in that completely winnable playoff game against Philly at Soldier Field. I don't want to see any more backs waste their talents in Chicago. When Nagy is gone, then we can talk running backs and running game again.
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wab
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Re: Bears need real help at RB

Wed Jan 29, 2020 9:45 am

The Marshall Plan wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 5:20 am
wab wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 1:09 pm
But the argument isn't mutually exclusive.
I don't care what it is or isn't.

If you were the GM of this team would you trade a 1,000 yard rusher in the prime of his career for peanuts if the HC asked you to? What would you think of the HC if he asked you to do that?

For me, if I was the GM and the HC asked me to trade a rusher like that I'd think oh shit I hired a dumbass.

Davis never should've been on the team from the get-go.

In what way was he an upgrade over Jordan Howard? Trick question. He's not. That means the GM and HC deliberately downgraded a position on this team simply because Howard didn't fit the mold so to speak.

Now contrast that to somebody like Vrabel who took a bag of spare parts, Henry, and a good defense, and went to the conference finals.

Maybe one day you and @UOK will acknowledge that its possible we have a couple morons in charge of the Bears.
I like you man, I really do. But if you can't get over yourself long enough to have a conversation that doesn't involve you bringing up Jordan Howard, Leonard Floyd, or Nagy... then I don't know what to tell you.
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crueltyabc
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Re: Bears need real help at RB

Wed Jan 29, 2020 12:25 pm

We're talking about young cheap talent here but maybe a good older player could also work? Maybe having a Frank Gore type in the RB room would be good for the youngsters? The cap difference between Nall and an over-the-hill vet would be like $500-800k.

Also, I hope we never get Hunt. I like that the Bears are a team I can show my son without having to apologize for anything the players do off the field. It would kill me if he ever asked for a guy's jersey and the player was a credibly accused wife beater or whatever. I'm with Nagy - no turds on this team, please.
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IE
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Re: Bears need real help at RB

Wed Jan 29, 2020 1:12 pm

crueltyabc wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 12:25 pm
We're talking about young cheap talent here but maybe a good older player could also work? Maybe having a Frank Gore type in the RB room would be good for the youngsters? The cap difference between Nall and an over-the-hill vet would be like $500-800k.

Also, I hope we never get Hunt. I like that the Bears are a team I can show my son without having to apologize for anything the players do off the field. It would kill me if he ever asked for a guy's jersey and the player was a credibly accused wife beater or whatever. I'm with Nagy - no turds on this team, please.
Gore is interesting.

Interesting conversation about bad guys who are good players. Did you cheer for Rodman ever? He was dirty AF as a Piston. What Lance Briggs did when he was younger was really unacceptable... but he turned into a more standup citizen. Peanut Tillman wasn't man of the year when he came out. He grew into it, and had some personal tragedy that sparked it. People make mistakes and don't repeat them. I still don't like Ray Lewis but the league has moved on from him being an accessory to murder....

Hunt paid the price for his mistake caught on video. Getting caught smoking a little pot is ridiculous. Lots of NFL players smoke pot. It's a joke.

The oline can often make a RB better. And I strongly believe the reverse is true when you have a talented player. 32 is talented in that sense. It would really help the Oline to have a Hunt on that depth chart.
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The Marshall Plan
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Re: Bears need real help at RB

Wed Jan 29, 2020 1:27 pm

wab wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 9:45 am
The Marshall Plan wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 5:20 am


I don't care what it is or isn't.

If you were the GM of this team would you trade a 1,000 yard rusher in the prime of his career for peanuts if the HC asked you to? What would you think of the HC if he asked you to do that?

For me, if I was the GM and the HC asked me to trade a rusher like that I'd think oh shit I hired a dumbass.

Davis never should've been on the team from the get-go.

In what way was he an upgrade over Jordan Howard? Trick question. He's not. That means the GM and HC deliberately downgraded a position on this team simply because Howard didn't fit the mold so to speak.

Now contrast that to somebody like Vrabel who took a bag of spare parts, Henry, and a good defense, and went to the conference finals.

Maybe one day you and @UOK will acknowledge that its possible we have a couple morons in charge of the Bears.
I like you man, I really do. But if you can't get over yourself long enough to have a conversation that doesn't involve you bringing up Jordan Howard, Leonard Floyd, or Nagy... then I don't know what to tell you.
Thank you. I like you too.

I answered your question, can you answer mine?

And bringing up a 1,000 yard rusher that was run out of town (Get it?), a busted draft choice, and the head coach in discussions surrounding a busted season is germane.

And in the interest of being consistent....

Jordan Howard
Leonard Floyd
Matt Nagy
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UOK
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Re: Bears need real help at RB

Wed Jan 29, 2020 1:30 pm

The Marshall Plan wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 1:27 pm

And in the interest of being consistent....

Jordan Howard
Leonard Floyd
Matt Nagy
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crueltyabc
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Re: Bears need real help at RB

Thu Jan 30, 2020 12:48 pm

Howard is a FA again any interest in signing him as backup? :evilgrin:
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wab
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Re: Bears need real help at RB

Thu Jan 30, 2020 12:52 pm

crueltyabc wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 12:48 pm
Howard is a FA again any interest in signing him as backup? :evilgrin:
Eh, not really. But if they brought him back on a 1yr deal it wouldn't be the worst thing to ever happen. Assuming he'd even want to come back.
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crueltyabc
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Re: Bears need real help at RB

Thu Jan 30, 2020 1:01 pm

I like him well enough but I'm guessing It would be a mess in the lockerroom to bring him back. I'm more like can Bilal Powell come for $800k or maybe some other journeyman who has history with the new coaches. We don't need to be looking for the next great Bears RB, we need a guy who can fill in if needed
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Re: Bears need real help at RB

Thu Jan 30, 2020 2:32 pm

wab wrote:
Sat Jan 25, 2020 12:16 pm
The philosophy behind running Cohen between the tackles makes sense. The execution is bad though. Ideally you run him between the tackles because he’s small and gets lost behind his linemen in the trash. Before you know it he squirts out and breaks off a big gain. But the Bears haven’t been able to run block for two years.

I do think the Bears need a viable backup for Montgomery though. You also have to factor in Cohen potentially leaving after next season.
We had him on the PS... but then the Steelers scooped him up... I feel like Kerrith Whyte would have been the guy to be a solid backup, the speedier change of pace back that could have been used as a kick returner as well.. if only they have cut Davis earlier and bumped Whyte up to the active roster...
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Re: Bears need real help at RB

Thu Jan 30, 2020 2:38 pm

I would have kept Whyte over Nall for sure. A 5'10" 200lb hammer that can run a 4.42 40 yard dash. Nall's special teams play might have been the deciding factor.... but man, I fully expect to see Whyte playing well for some team in the near future.
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wab
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Re: Bears need real help at RB

Thu Jan 30, 2020 2:46 pm

I think the TE situation indirectly caused the Bears to have to put Whyte on the PS. When you have to carry 6 TE's due to injury and overall ineffectiveness... roster spots have to come from somewhere. Why they chose to bring up Nall instead of Whyte probably had more to do with his ability to play STs and fill the H-back(ish) role given that they had just IR'd Burton.

But yeah, it would have been nice if Whyte could have stayed on the 53.
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wab
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Re: Bears need real help at RB

Thu Jan 30, 2020 2:49 pm

BamaBear09 wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 2:32 pm
wab wrote:
Sat Jan 25, 2020 12:16 pm
The philosophy behind running Cohen between the tackles makes sense. The execution is bad though. Ideally you run him between the tackles because he’s small and gets lost behind his linemen in the trash. Before you know it he squirts out and breaks off a big gain. But the Bears haven’t been able to run block for two years.

I do think the Bears need a viable backup for Montgomery though. You also have to factor in Cohen potentially leaving after next season.
We had him on the PS... but then the Steelers scooped him up... I feel like Kerrith Whyte would have been the guy to be a solid backup, the speedier change of pace back that could have been used as a kick returner as well.. if only they have cut Davis earlier and bumped Whyte up to the active roster...
Davis was cut on the 9th (the same day Nall was activated). Whyte wasn't poached until the 16th. They still could have, but chose Nall for reasons I assumed above.
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Re: Bears need real help at RB

Thu Jan 30, 2020 2:53 pm

wab wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 2:49 pm
BamaBear09 wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 2:32 pm


We had him on the PS... but then the Steelers scooped him up... I feel like Kerrith Whyte would have been the guy to be a solid backup, the speedier change of pace back that could have been used as a kick returner as well.. if only they have cut Davis earlier and bumped Whyte up to the active roster...
Davis was cut on the 9th (the same day Nall was activated). Whyte wasn't poached until the 16th. They still could have, but chose Nall for reasons I assumed above.
well damn... makes it even more aggravating...
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IE
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Re: Bears need real help at RB

Mon Feb 03, 2020 11:23 am

I feel the same way about Whyte. That speed was intriguing. The rationale about why Nall vs Whyte makes sense. I also wonder if he wasn't an enthusiastic guy on ST.
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Richie
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Re: Bears need real help at RB

Mon Feb 03, 2020 1:39 pm

The Marshall Plan wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 1:01 pm
wab wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 10:55 am

No one cares about Howard anymore. This was a discussion about what happened with Davis.
Yes it is a discussion about Davis and my point is that the front office are morons for trading Jordan Howard who is a better RB and signing Davis instead.
But... Davis did not take on the Howard role. That was Montgomery. That's who you should be comparing Howard to. Montgomery/Howard's numbers were eerily identical rushing (same YPC) and Montgomery was better as a receiver/blocker. Montgomery also operated in an offense functioning at a much lower level.

I would do the Howard trade again in a heartbeat. Why not? Pickup a draft pick for a two down, timeshare type of back? We got a draft pick for a guy. Then, we plugged in another guy and got the exact same rushing production. What am I missing here? Did Jordan Howard morph into CMC or Alvin Kamara this year?

They're only RB's... and not special ones either. It's really not worth getting riled up about. You now have 7 straight SB's where an undrafted free agent started for at least one of the two teams. Both were undrafted this year. A true feature back has not started a SB since Marshawn Lynch in 2014. The #1 rushing offense this year consisted of Tevin Coleman, Raheem Mostert and Matt Breida as an "interchangeable" (own coaches words) trio.

This whole conversation is like sitting around and talking about punters. Sure, you want a good one. But you can pluck them undrafted off of trees. Unless they're contributing like a CMC in the passing game. All these guys flare up, burn out after a few years... it's just a moot point to argue.
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Re: Bears need real help at RB

Mon Feb 03, 2020 2:08 pm

Richie wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 1:39 pm
But... Davis did not take on the Howard role. That was Montgomery. That's who you should be comparing Howard to. Montgomery/Howard's numbers were eerily identical rushing (same YPC) and Montgomery was better as a receiver/blocker. Montgomery also operated in an offense functioning at a much lower level.

I would do the Howard trade again in a heartbeat. Why not? Pickup a draft pick for a two down, timeshare type of back? We got a draft pick for a guy. Then, we plugged in another guy and got the exact same rushing production. What am I missing here? Did Jordan Howard morph into CMC or Alvin Kamara this year?

They're only RB's... and not special ones either. It's really not worth getting riled up about. You now have 7 straight SB's where an undrafted free agent started for at least one of the two teams. Both were undrafted this year. A true feature back has not started a SB since Marshawn Lynch in 2014. The #1 rushing offense this year consisted of Tevin Coleman, Raheem Mostert and Matt Breida as an "interchangeable" (own coaches words) trio.

This whole conversation is like sitting around and talking about punters. Sure, you want a good one. But you can pluck them undrafted off of trees. Unless they're contributing like a CMC in the passing game. All these guys flare up, burn out after a few years... it's just a moot point to argue.
This right here... we got a middle 6th round pick for him... in order for Philly to even get a 6th round comp pick for him, he will need to sign a contract with at least $3.5m+ average per year... I highly doubt he will get that rich of a contract and even if he does a 6th round comp pick in 2021 (if they don't sign someone to cancel it out) would be at the end of the 6th round... so Pace did what you should do when you have a guy who can bring back a pick and you know you're not going to re-sign...
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Re: Bears need real help at RB

Mon Feb 03, 2020 2:26 pm

Taken alltogether the trade worked out alright, but if they hadn't cut Davis loose in order to get that comp pick, the series of events would have looked misplayed. I may have still held onto him, but it wasn't bad.

I still do think they need a guy in that Davis role though. Montgomery has some nice traits, but I think a committee approach would benefit the O. Keep guys fresher, give the D different looks, etc.
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Drone7
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Re: Bears need real help at RB

Mon Feb 03, 2020 2:53 pm

They could use a speed back with more size than Cohen.

Nagy wants to run a speed offense with an un-explosive set of skill players. He needs to tailor his offense to what he has and evolve towards what he wants.

Reid emphasized the running game when he came to KC, then veered towards what he likes to do--mostly pass--as they accumulated explosive players and a QB that can ignite that offense.
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wab
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Re: Bears need real help at RB

Mon Feb 03, 2020 4:27 pm

Drone7 wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 2:53 pm
They could use a speed back with more size than Cohen.

Nagy wants to run a speed offense with an un-explosive set of skill players. He needs to tailor his offense to what he has and evolve towards what he wants.

Reid emphasized the running game when he came to KC, then veered towards what he likes to do--mostly pass--as they accumulated explosive players and a QB that can ignite that offense.
Yeah, but Any Reid started with a roster with an established QB and an all pro RB in Jamaal Charles. Howard was "good" but he wasn't Jamaal Charles.

He also had a pro bowl line. Branden Albert, Jeff Allen, Rodney Hudson, and Jon Asamoah were some of the best at their respective positions. He also got to take Eric Fisher #1 overall.

The thing constantly holding the early Reid teams back was a severe lack of talent at WR. It wasn't until they found Kelce and Hill that the passing game opened up.
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Hoog
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Re: Bears need real help at RB

Thu Feb 06, 2020 12:15 pm

I got a little bit chastised last time I threw out some stats but at risk of having it happen again, the underutilized Cordarelle Patterson could have helped out our running game and offense in general this year and he should be looked to improve the offense next year. He was brought in as a jackknife for the offense, as he had been in the two previous years with Oakland and then New England. He had a total of 58 touches on offense running/receiving with Oakland in 2017 garnering 9.8 yards per touch. He was used more at WR but also had somewhere in the 20 carries at RB . In New England it was reverse, where he ran the ball more at RB than received touches at WR. He had a total of 70 touches in NE for 7.5 yards per touch.

We essential neutered him on offense, reducing him to 28 touches on the offense: 17 rushing and only 11 receiving for a total of 6.6 per touch. While even the continuation of 6.6 per touch would have been nice with more touches, he could have increased that given the opportunity on an offensive starved team. I really thought Nagy was going to be creative with CP but he really only let him be a returner and wasted his speed/talent he had shown in the prior two years on the sidelines. Here's hoping that with a lot of other things, Matt learned from this error.
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wab
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Re: Bears need real help at RB

Thu Feb 06, 2020 12:18 pm

Hoog wrote:
Thu Feb 06, 2020 12:15 pm
I got a little bit chastised last time I threw out some stats but at risk of having it happen again, the underutilized Cordarelle Patterson could have helped out our running game and offense in general this year and he should be looked to improve the offense next year. He was brought in as a jackknife for the offense, as he had been in the two previous years with Oakland and then New England. He had a total of 58 touches on offense running/receiving with Oakland in 2017 garnering 9.8 yards per touch. He was used more at WR but also had somewhere in the 20 carries at RB . In New England it was reverse, where he ran the ball more at RB than received touches at WR. He had a total of 70 touches in NE for 7.5 yards per touch.

We essential neutered him on offense, reducing him to 28 touches on the offense: 17 rushing and only 11 receiving for a total of 6.6 per touch. While even the continuation of 6.6 per touch would have been nice with more touches, he could have increased that given the opportunity on an offensive starved team. I really thought Nagy was going to be creative with CP but he really only let him be a returner and wasted his speed/talent he had shown in the prior two years on the sidelines. Here's hoping that with a lot of other things, Matt learned from this error.
I legitimately believe that Patterson could be a 1000 yard runner in the NFL.
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Hoog
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Re: Bears need real help at RB

Thu Feb 06, 2020 12:24 pm

The dude shows good instincts. Instead of trying to run Cohen in the middle, Patterson should have been given everyone of those carries. If you look at film of him in NE, he went the middle a lot, not just outside. Would have also loved to see him get more of those sweeps instead of Gabriel, Cohen and others as well. For a team that lacked offense and a running game it was always confusing that he was on the sidelines waiting to return balls.
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Re: Bears need real help at RB

Thu Feb 06, 2020 3:22 pm

Like the idea of transitioning him more to RB.

He came into the league really raw as a WR in MN. Almost like K White with primitive route running, route adjustment skills. Neither were bright enough to pick up different route running skills and different roles quickly. He would be a willing blocker, although I want to see how smart he would be with pickups(?). Not sure he's bright enough to be a full-time back if Monty were to go down. But he seems to get better/savvier with age, so maybe I'm wrong. Was impressed with his occasional backfield runs in NE. Fast, strong and keeps his legs churning, able to run through arm tackles. Barely adequate hands for a WR, but good enough for a back. Obviously, when he gets into the open field, he's a beast.

Helluva all-round ST player too, so he was a good addition.
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wab
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Re: Bears need real help at RB

Thu Feb 06, 2020 4:32 pm

Not sure where the "not very bright" thing is coming from.
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dave99
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Re: Bears need real help at RB

Thu Feb 06, 2020 5:05 pm

Don't know if anyone has brought this up yet, but i just saw this:
http://sportsmockery.com/2020/02/former ... perfectly/

Johnson would fit Chicago Bears system perfectly
It’s been a remarkable sequence of years for Johnson. He was a burgeoning superstar in 2016, going for 2,118 total yards and 20 touchdowns. Then in 2017, he played just one game before being lost for the year to injury. In 2018, he rebounded with 1,378 total yards and 10 touchdowns. However, upon the arrival of new head coach Kliff Kingsbury this past year, Johnson saw his role diminished until he hardly played.

Now he’ll hit the market at 28-years old.

Johnson is a running back known for his vision and patience. He finds the holes well and hits them with acceleration and power. Perhaps his biggest skill is catching the football. The running back is a genuine threat out of the backfield, able to run multiple types of routes and sports good hands and body control. The exact type of back Matt Nagy wants in his offense. If the Bears are looking for a way to reinvigorate their ground game, pairing Johnson with Montgomery would be a great way to do it.
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UOK
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Re: Bears need real help at RB

Thu Feb 06, 2020 5:16 pm

Johnson would be cool if he could stay healthy.
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AZ_Bearfan
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Re: Bears need real help at RB

Thu Feb 06, 2020 5:58 pm

He's going down that Thomas Jones road too where he's lifting too much and getting too big. He looked stiff this year.
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