Bears cut WR Taylor Gabriel, CB Prince Amukamara

mmmc_35 · Sat Feb 22, 2020 8:57 pm

Like everyone I like Prince hes a good player when on the field but cost is a hindrance. However on paper the cb depth is concerning.

Wr gabriel isn't a bad player either. But he isn't what they hoped. I think some of that is coaching and QB play. Now question is does Miller take that roll? Riley, Wims while promising dont have the speed element that maybe wanted.

dplank · Sun Feb 23, 2020 9:50 am

I thought our offense improved the moment Wims started getting solid playing time. Miller has a physical limitation IMO that keeps him at slot, he isn't big enough/not enough speed to play outside. He could play outside at his size if he were a burner, but he's not a burner. He could be fast enough if he were bigger, but he's pretty damn small. Both things together keep him as a slot guy IMO. I like Wims, have no clue about Riley since we haven't seen him yet. What's missing is a big time threat at TE. If we get that guy, I think we have enough at WR because that guy gobbles up a lot of receptions - there's only one ball to go around.

Regarding Prince...cap will limit us here and I think we need to decide on adding pressure up front which will mean we don't have to cover as long on the back end, or go high on a CB. I prefer the pressure route, but I don't trust Pagano to get it done even with a great front 7. Any DC that plays EJax in the box while dropping Mack into coverage deserves to be run out of town IMO.

Moriarty · Sun Feb 23, 2020 4:18 pm

I just don't see Prince coming back for much less than what he was already due - and if you save only 1-2M, does that really justify the risk of losing someone you obviously prefer to keep?

The 48th highest paid CB does only make about 2.5M...but most of those low-paid top 64 corners are on rookie deals. Top 64 vets don't get paid like that. Buster Freaking Skrine is making 6.1, so what does that set Prince's value at?

BreadNCircuses · Sun Feb 23, 2020 5:29 pm

I thought last year when we signed Skrine and then drafted Duke Shelley that Skrine was the "safe" replacement for Amukamara if none of the the multiple options we were developing (Denmark and Tolliver, add Tre Roberson this year) were able to step into the starting #2 CB spot.
Not that I think that's Skrine's best position, but his ability to be a capable mid-tier starter on the outside, better at the NB made him a good bridge player for the defense.

That said, I hope to see someone, be it Denmark, Tolliver, or Roberson, make a strong jump and stake a claim to the #2 CB spot and hopefully Shelley can push Skrine at the nickle (again, I'm hoping to see major growth in the young CBs inside and outside). Regardless, I also expect a mid-round draft pick spent on CB to add competition there.

southdakbearfan · Sun Feb 23, 2020 8:03 pm

I like tolliver to replace prince.

AZ_Bearfan · Sun Feb 23, 2020 10:33 pm

southdakbearfan wrote: ↑Sun Feb 23, 2020 8:03 pm I like tolliver to replace prince.

Same here. I think Prince may follow Fangio to Denver too.

IE · Mon Feb 24, 2020 9:29 am

I'd like to see 29 get the deep looks that 18 was getting, or should have gotten. Cohen ran a 4.2. Turbo ran a 4.0. So I see 29 as an adequate replacement for Turbo. He's more of a WR anyway. Even if the Bears picked up another burner what's the point really with 10's almost complete lack of deep touch? Might be better to spend the resources elsewhere and give Wims/Riley and Miller more looks.

Ridley is a bigger body and ran a 4.8.... would like to think he can get downfield. Miller actually ran a 4.6, which isn't too shabby. He's a long threat but just can't be THE long threat. Out of all of them, Miller seems to be the best at running routes getting separation, and making plays. When healthy (fingers crossed they get his shoulders stronger).

Hey Plank - I'd like to see a TE get 100+ targets too. I think the key there is the QB. So let's get Carr, who turned a 6th round converted WR into a 90 catch 1150 yard guy last year. There might be a similar guy or two on the Bears.

HurricaneBear · Mon Feb 24, 2020 10:28 am

Where did you get those 40 times from?

Cohen - 4.42 https://www.playerprofiler.com/nfl/tarik-cohen/
Gabriel 4.45 https://www.playerprofiler.com/nfl/taylor-gabriel/
Ridley 4.58 https://www.playerprofiler.com/nfl/riley-ridley/
Miller 4.55 https://www.playerprofiler.com/nfl/anthony-miller/

I think Gabriel was slightly faster than his 40, cohen is quick more than straight up fast, and ridley and miller are right in line with other possession guys. This offense desperately needs more speed.

KC for comparison
Hill 4.34 https://www.playerprofiler.com/nfl/tyreek-hill/
Hardman 4.33 https://www.playerprofiler.com/nfl/mecole-hardman/
Watkins 4.43 https://www.playerprofiler.com/nfl/sammy-watkins/

IE · Mon Feb 24, 2020 11:01 am

Sorry - that was supposed to be 4.42 for Cohen and 4.40 for Gabriel. 4.46 for Miller and 4.48 for Ridley. My mistake to omit all those .4s! lol - we wish!

KC are outliers. Hill is simply the fastest human being we've ever seen in a football uniform. I don't know what his track times are, but he is The Flash when he's playing it is frightening. I know Hardman is fast too - but Hill is otherworldly.

Anyway... these guys don't make Mahomes. He makes them. I think my point about Trubisky stands - he has demonstrated very little if any consistent capability of utilizing the guys and their speed like Mahomes does. How many times has 10 hit someone in stride, beating a defender with speed, for a home run? Or created something out of nothing like Mahomes does to find a guy who is open and then uses that speed? Seriously - with Mitch those fast guys are going to be leaping into the air to catch overthrown balls on first-read curls, and get hammered before they get a yard of yac.

Mon Feb 24, 2020 11:02 am

southdakbearfan wrote: ↑Sun Feb 23, 2020 8:03 pm I like tolliver to replace prince.

I'm a huge Toliver fan.

crueltyabc · Mon Feb 24, 2020 12:45 pm

I can see a potential strategy to pencil in tolliver and bush as your starters, spend on interior oline and TE instead, then use the second rounders to add more DBs. It's a deep CB class and we're in a good spot to get a good safety, too.

Drone7 · Mon Feb 24, 2020 1:21 pm

I doubt Bush is a starter caliber player.

Mon Feb 24, 2020 2:23 pm

I like Bush as a rotational guy, but I think if they saw him as a starter, they probably wouldn't have spent money on Ha-Ha.

He's shown some real flashes...but at 27 he might be as good as he will ever get.

Drone7 · Mon Feb 24, 2020 3:16 pm

He's also had several blown plays in regular season games. He doesn't seem to have instincts for S especially in coverage.

dplank · Mon Feb 24, 2020 3:32 pm

The good news here is what we need is the box/strong safety type, not the ball hawk which is much more expensive and already on our roster. Of course we have to play them in the correct positions, SMH, but Pace should recognize that we need a box/strong safety and market price on those isn't all that bad. They are also value draft picks, like RB's and G's, so I feel like we could draft a decent one who could play right away. There's no reason we should have to settle for Deon Bush, who I agree is a decent rotational guy but not someone you want out there as your everyday starter.

Moriarty · Mon Feb 24, 2020 4:14 pm

I'm no big Deon Bush fan, but I think he might temporarily get the job, just based on serious lack of financial and draft resource to do otherwise.

I'm seeing Bush plus a Day 3 draft pick as the most likely SS approach. Maybe they can squeeze in a really cheap vet, but I'm not counting on it.

Mikefive · Tue Feb 25, 2020 8:39 am

Prince... I agree with Mori. That guy was making about what he's worth. Starting caliber NFL CBs aren't cheap. I can see the "banking on hope" plan to just go with Tolliver. I do like him and he's been alright in spot play. But that's certainly no guarantee for quality play over 16 games. I can see our limited cap resources making it a move we have to make.

Gabriel... This move seems forced by the concussions, unfortunately. What is really curious to me is that we've been bringing in non-burners, but that's what Nagy loves. We've all seen that 4-deep pattern shown by tape guys as well as on the field. But having 29 as the only 4.4 guy with a bunch of possession targets seems like running the I-formation for Nagy. Is Pace forcing him to do what he doesn't like to do? I could REALLY see us making at least one move to bring in a speed merchant.

dplank · Tue Feb 25, 2020 9:19 am

I think one of those 4 should be Corderelle Patterson, Nagy just has to get him out there a little more at WR instead of RB. So you could have Patterson/Cohen as two burners in that scenario. I know Patterson isn't the sharpest tool in the shed, but I'm sure he could learn to run 10-15 deep patterns and he's an effective decoy if nothing else. You have to play off that guy or he'll go by you, ultimately that's what you want to create the soft underneath for your TE. We need more value out of Patterson than just KR, and I'd prefer the handoffs he gets now go to an actual RB instead and see him play more WR. I also think he'd be better at contesting for the deep ball than Gabriel was simply because of physical size.

The bigger problem though is in our standard sets, we look like we'll have ARob/Wims/Miller/Burton right now, with either Monty/Cohen in the backfield / sometimes splitting out wide. There's no real deep threat in this scenario. KC has Hill as their #1, so he's out there all the time creating pressure on the defense on every snap. Maybe Wims is better suited to just back up ARob and we need a burner to play in standard sets? I dunno. Hollywood Brown had a major impact on the Ravens O last year, but how do you find that guy?

Tue Feb 25, 2020 10:32 am

Hollywood Brown had a major impact on the Ravens O last year, but how do you find that guy?

Hope that KJ Hamler or Jalen Reagor are sitting there for you at 43.

dplank · Tue Feb 25, 2020 10:44 am

wab wrote: ↑Tue Feb 25, 2020 10:32 am
Hollywood Brown had a major impact on the Ravens O last year, but how do you find that guy?
Hope that KJ Hamler or Jalen Reagor are sitting there for you at 43.

I don't know that this guy is going to be a very good deep threat.

Drone7 · Tue Feb 25, 2020 12:21 pm

Might not be the right forum, but pertinent to where this thread has meandered...

Don't know how closely Smith scouted these "non-first round" WRs, but he does know a lot about the position if not the players:

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap300000 ... round-pick

Yogi da Bear · Tue Feb 25, 2020 6:19 pm

wab wrote: ↑Tue Feb 25, 2020 10:32 am
Hollywood Brown had a major impact on the Ravens O last year, but how do you find that guy?
Hope that KJ Hamler or Jalen Reagor are sitting there for you at 43.

Have to wonder why they cut Gabriel. Was it because of his size or his concussions or his drops or just general lack of production? When we cut him, Hamler was my guy originally, but if we're really concerned about having too many midgets in the backfield with Cohen and Gabriel, maybe Hamler is off our radar. For the rookies coming in, he's my speed guy though.

But if we want speed and size, there are some really fast free agent WRs out there right now:

Phillip Dorsett, 5'10", 4.33, 27 years old
Breshard Perriman, 6'2", 4.35, 26 years old
And my favorite--Robbie Anderson, 6'3", 4.36, 26 years old.

I put the ages in because Pace seems to like that 26-29 year old bubble for free agent signings.

Yogi da Bear · Tue Feb 25, 2020 6:22 pm

Moriarty wrote: ↑Mon Feb 24, 2020 4:14 pm I'm no big Deon Bush fan, but I think he might temporarily get the job, just based on serious lack of financial and draft resource to do otherwise.

I'm seeing Bush plus a Day 3 draft pick as the most likely SS approach. Maybe they can squeeze in a really cheap vet, but I'm not counting on it.

I actually really like Bush, but first, everybody should remember that he's a free agent. We'll first have to resign him. I think he might be a better fit for us than Ha Ha because Deon actually tackles really well and is far more physical. When we exchanged Ha Ha for Amos I was excited, but we really missed Amos last year, his physicality. I think that Deon is more that kind of safety.

southdakbearfan · Tue Feb 25, 2020 9:40 pm

dplank wrote: ↑Tue Feb 25, 2020 9:19 am I think one of those 4 should be Corderelle Patterson, Nagy just has to get him out there a little more at WR instead of RB. So you could have Patterson/Cohen as two burners in that scenario. I know Patterson isn't the sharpest tool in the shed, but I'm sure he could learn to run 10-15 deep patterns and he's an effective decoy if nothing else. You have to play off that guy or he'll go by you, ultimately that's what you want to create the soft underneath for your TE. We need more value out of Patterson than just KR, and I'd prefer the handoffs he gets now go to an actual RB instead and see him play more WR. I also think he'd be better at contesting for the deep ball than Gabriel was simply because of physical size.

The bigger problem though is in our standard sets, we look like we'll have ARob/Wims/Miller/Burton right now, with either Monty/Cohen in the backfield / sometimes splitting out wide. There's no real deep threat in this scenario. KC has Hill as their #1, so he's out there all the time creating pressure on the defense on every snap. Maybe Wims is better suited to just back up ARob and we need a burner to play in standard sets? I dunno. Hollywood Brown had a major impact on the Ravens O last year, but how do you find that guy?

A few things here I disagree with:

1. Patterson at WR - he has stunk at running routes, consistent catching, blocking and in general doing anything at the WR position his entire career and is a terrible decoy as he doesn't run when he doesn't think he is going to get the ball. MN force fed him the ball his only real year of decent stats. Most of his catches with the Pats were out of the backfield. I could see him strictly as a RB/ST guy, but can you afford to pay that guy what they are paying him?

2. The need for a deep threat - we need an offensive line before we need to worry about throwing the ball deep. If they can't block for 2.5 seconds we can't throw deep anyway. 40 speed and football speed are very different on the field as well. I think Wims/Miller are the deep threat for now.

HisRoyalSweetness · Mon Mar 09, 2020 2:22 pm

Yogi da Bear wrote: ↑Tue Feb 25, 2020 6:19 pm But if we want speed and size, there are some really fast free agent WRs out there right now:

Phillip Dorsett, 5'10", 4.33, 27 years old
Breshard Perriman, 6'2", 4.35, 26 years old
And my favorite--Robbie Anderson, 6'3", 4.36, 26 years old.

I put the ages in because Pace seems to like that 26-29 year old bubble for free agent signings.

2020 NFL free agency: Eight players who could be overpriced
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap300000 ... overpriced

Robby Anderson, wide receiver: Anderson is a classic boom-or-bust pickup. His deep speed jumps off the screen and is a difficult trait to find, especially in this free-agent class. He's posted at least 10 catches of 20-plus yards in each of his four pro seasons despite playing on bad offenses. That's why he probably will make north of the four-year, $44 million contract Tyrell Williams got from the Raiders a year ago. Williams didn't have nearly as many red flags, though.

Anderson had multiple legal issues during his rookie contract and didn't always see eye to eye with his head coaches. For all his talent, he's topped 800 receiving yards only once and never been a 1,000-yard receiver. Offseason stories about Anderson becoming a more "complete" wideout usually didn't translate to Sundays. With a deep WR draft class coming into the league, teams could be better off going young at the position rather than paying Anderson big money.