Question on Floyd

Yogi da Bear · Sat Mar 14, 2020 4:00 pm

If we cut Floyd now, do we lose Floyd's contribution to the compensatory pick process. Normally, if you cut a player that player doesn't contribute to the process. Are we in fact cutting Floyd or simply removing the fifth year option (if we choose to do that)? If Floyd isn't our roster next year, is he included in the compensatory pick calculation? Anybody know?

cblaz11 · Sat Mar 14, 2020 4:17 pm

Hmmm...that’s a great question

I have to imagine that if we recind the 5th year he won’t be comp eligible.

southdakbearfan · Sat Mar 14, 2020 4:51 pm

He would factor into the compensatory pick calculation if they rescind the 5th year option from everything I have read.

The Cooler King · Sat Mar 14, 2020 5:16 pm

I didn't think so originally. I had a extensive back and forth with one of the Over The Cap guys on Twitter a few weeks ago and he insisted he would factor into the comp formula.

The part I find weird is the CBA doesn't really address the ability to "rescind" an option year. It's very clear that the contract wouldn't be guaranteed (save for injury), but doesn't make any provision on the type of transaction that would occur. And there's actually a specific appendix on the CBA which is a proforma of what info you give a player who has their contract terminated (reason for terminating and type of termination) , no special language/type for a 5th year option.

On top of that, no apparent history of this actually ever happening to a 5th year option guy.

But he sounded pretty confident, it is his job to know and the comp formula, unlike the CBA is very secretive. So, take his word for it, but it's never happened so I'm not holding my breath exactly.

Drone7 · Sat Mar 14, 2020 6:08 pm

Robert Griffin and cb Kevin Johnson were both released before their 5th year options kicked in...

I agree with the OTC expert that the Bears would be eligible to receive a comp pick in the overall formula.

Sat Mar 14, 2020 6:15 pm

I legitimately think they are going to try and trade him.

southdakbearfan · Sat Mar 14, 2020 6:44 pm

If they keep him, at that cap hit, I don't see anyway there can be an serious QB competition.

The Cooler King · Sat Mar 14, 2020 6:49 pm

Drone7 wrote: ↑Sat Mar 14, 2020 6:08 pm Robert Griffen and cb Kevin Johnson were both released before their 5th year options kicked in...

I agree with the OTC expert that the Bears would be eligible to receive a comp pick in the overall formula.

Thanks for the info! I was unsuccessful in finding examples before of released 5th year option guys (and OTCBrad couldn't name any examples either fwiw).

Based on that, the OTC pick cancelation chart from those years don't include either of these guys in their formula. Granted not an authoritative source. Also for both the losing and gaining teams in those moves, they wouldn't have been in the draft comp either way, so potentially kind of a false negative scenario. Still...

Edit-actually CLE was draft comp eligible when they signed RGIII in 2016.
https://overthecap.com/compensatory-dra ... ion-chart/
Click on 2017 tab.
https://www.dawgsbynature.com/2017/2/24 ... -confirmed
This article claims he didn't factor in the formula but they were over the max even if RGIII had counted, so another possible false negative scenario.

The Cooler King · Sat Mar 14, 2020 7:27 pm

Two more link:
https://nflcommunications.com/Pages/NFL ... Clubs.aspx

Formal NFL communication on 2017 draft comps. Does not list RGIII in the gained column for CLE.

And for clarification no 2:
https://nflcommunications.com/Pages/NFL ... -----.aspx
Kevin Johnson not appearing in this year's formula for Houstons net losses.

Grizzled · Sun Mar 15, 2020 8:05 am

It's a good question but shouldn't be the overriding factor. The Bears can't keep Floyd at $13M if they want to make any other moves this year. They need to restructure to a more favorable long term contract. It's possible they could work out a one year "prove it" deal with him although I'd have to think he's walking if they rescind the 5th year.

Z Bear · Sun Mar 15, 2020 8:07 am

Didn't the Lions rescind the 5th year on Eric Ebron after they initially said they would give it to him?

The Cooler King · Sun Mar 15, 2020 8:20 am

Z Bear wrote: ↑Sun Mar 15, 2020 8:07 am Didn't the Lions rescind the 5th year on Eric Ebron after they initially said they would give it to him?

Great another example!

Does not show up on OTCs chart, nor on the NFLs press release of 2019 comp picks (would have shown under Indy's gains)
https://nflcommunications.com/Pages/NFL ... UBS--.aspx

So I think we can put the pick comp to bed for Floyd.

The Cooler King · Sun Mar 15, 2020 8:39 am

Grizzled wrote: ↑Sun Mar 15, 2020 8:05 am It's a good question but shouldn't be the overriding factor. The Bears can't keep Floyd at $13M if they want to make any other moves this year. They need to restructure to a more favorable long term contract. It's possible they could work out a one year "prove it" deal with him although I'd have to think he's walking if they rescind the 5th year.

I agree it can't be an overriding factor. Even if he were comp pick eligible, the best case scenario for a replacement for him is likely another comp pick guy who would just offset any "gain" from Floyd.

Also a 5th or 6th round pick is nice but won't make up for a bad FA period.

RichH55 · Sun Mar 15, 2020 10:14 am

Usually declining options generally DOES count for the formula

The Cooler King · Sun Mar 15, 2020 12:11 pm

RichH55 wrote: ↑Sun Mar 15, 2020 10:14 am Usually declining options generally DOES count for the formula

Well that's the whole issue that IMO got convulated and lost in this and misled people.

An option is either exercised or not. After it's excecised their isn't a special "rescind" transaction. So for a 5th year rookie option, that exercise occurs the year before. After that, it's just a normal roster termination. It's spelled out that it's not guaranteed - save for injury). But that's it.

The veteran option "loophole" is apparently what got closed in terms of the comp formula. Those options are exercised in the offseason in question and were truely always kind of a bogus workaround to release vets without technically terminating their contract.

I'm not a pro at this sort of stuff, but I've been an "amateur capologist" across sports for many years as I do find these things interesting. The biggest thing I've learned is to be specific with words cuz they make a difference, and check back to the source material. In this case, option rescinding is just not a thing that actually exists.

RichH55 · Mon Mar 16, 2020 10:05 am

The Cooler King wrote: ↑Sun Mar 15, 2020 12:11 pm
The veteran option "loophole" is apparently what got closed in terms of the comp formula.

Is there a link to this? (Not doubting just want to read further)

I didn't see anything on the CBA doing anything to this - and IIRC as of this season the declining an option still counted for the Comp formula

RichH55 · Mon Mar 16, 2020 10:07 am

RichH55 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 16, 2020 10:05 am
The Cooler King wrote: ↑Sun Mar 15, 2020 12:11 pm
The veteran option "loophole" is apparently what got closed in terms of the comp formula.

Is there a link to this? (Not doubting just want to read further)

I didn't see anything on the CBA doing anything to this - and IIRC as of this season the declining an option still counted for the Comp formula

Found it:

Great find by you - Thank you

The Cooler King · Mon Mar 16, 2020 10:44 am

RichH55 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 16, 2020 10:07 am
RichH55 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 16, 2020 10:05 am

Is there a link to this? (Not doubting just want to read further)

I didn't see anything on the CBA doing anything to this - and IIRC as of this season the declining an option still counted for the Comp formula
Found it:

Great find by you - Thank you

Yep that's where I originally heard it. Then that spawned the whole Floyd discussion/debate.

To me this does change the dynamic of Mitch a little. I decline the option and keep the franchise/transition tag in my back pocket if he breaks out.

Moriarty · Tue Mar 17, 2020 10:01 am

Apologies that I'm on really short sleep and struggling with this -

Is the conclusion then "Pulling his option and letting him go doesn't get comp credit"?

RichH55 · Tue Mar 17, 2020 10:09 am

Absolutely has to be Moriarty - the only case for it was how the Option was classified

AND come to find out -the Option thing is dead outright.

(I think? Though I keep thinking on it - and there has to be some classification on that 5th year option otherwise no 1st Rounder who plays out his contract would ever count as to the Comp Pick formula)

southdakbearfan · Tue Mar 17, 2020 10:17 am

RichH55 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 17, 2020 10:09 am Absolutely has to be Moriarty - the only case for it was how the Option was classified

AND come to find out -the Option thing is dead outright.

(I think? Though I keep thinking on it - and there has to be some classification on that 5th year option otherwise no 1st Rounder who plays out his contract would ever count as to the Comp Pick formula)

If you never pick up the option in the first place then I believe they would count.

BearsFanInMN · Tue Mar 17, 2020 10:39 am

Guess we'll know shortly as decision date is tomorrow

Tue Mar 17, 2020 10:40 am

RichH55 · Tue Mar 17, 2020 1:01 pm

UOK wrote: ↑Tue Mar 17, 2020 10:40 am

Thank you much

The Cooler King · Tue Mar 17, 2020 1:18 pm

southdakbearfan wrote: ↑Tue Mar 17, 2020 10:17 am
RichH55 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 17, 2020 10:09 am Absolutely has to be Moriarty - the only case for it was how the Option was classified

AND come to find out -the Option thing is dead outright.

(I think? Though I keep thinking on it - and there has to be some classification on that 5th year option otherwise no 1st Rounder who plays out his contract would ever count as to the Comp Pick formula)
If you never pick up the option in the first place then I believe they would count.

Its really pretty simple (to me at least).

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS RESCINDING THE 5TH YEAR OPTION.

OTCBrad still using the rescinded verbiage in this context is pretty careless IMO. His contract is being terminated, just like any other release /cut. It just happens that the contract has no guarantees.

As long as a guy is not released (and i think meets an experience threshold) he is comp pick eligible. If he is released, he isn't eligible. Now an option, on the other hand, has its own transaction type. You can decline to exercise an option and that's not a release.

The only thing they changed this year was on vet options. Teams like Balt were using it as a loophole to boost their comp formula specifically and the NFL changed the comp pick formula. They aren't extending that logic to the rookie 5th year option, becuase it's not negotiated, per OTCBrad, (and I'd guess because the option has to be exercised a full year in advance).

So a 1st round pick can net a comp pick if
1. Their option is declined
2. Their option is exercised

They can't net a comp pick if their contract is terminated (aka cut/released).