Brissett/Ballard/Colts tangent

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cblaz11
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Re: FA Activity/Rumor Thread

Sat Mar 21, 2020 11:33 am

I wouldn’t mind taking a look at Devin Funchess at WR..

I can’t believe the Colts paid him 13 mill last year...for 3 catches. Terrible signing at the time that looks even worse now.

I’d like to kick the tires on a cheap deal.
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GSH
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Re: FA Activity/Rumor Thread

Sat Mar 21, 2020 11:54 am

Funchess? we already have a huge problem with dropped passes. He aint it, chief.
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BearsFanInMN
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Re: FA Activity/Rumor Thread

Sat Mar 21, 2020 4:12 pm

GSH wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 11:54 am
Funchess? we already have a huge problem with dropped passes. He aint it, chief.
Agreed. In no order but in that same age range I would rather look at
Nelson Agohlor
Robby Anderson
Chester Rogers
Breshad Perriman
Geronimo Allison
LaQuon Treadwell (ok that might be a push when it comes down to it)
Tajae Sharpe
Phillip Dorsett
Rashard Higgins
cblaz11
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Re: FA Activity/Rumor Thread

Sat Mar 21, 2020 4:13 pm

I’m not asking him to be our 1...but I’d be open to him as a back end guy.

13 mill...That’s gotta be one of the worst contracts I’ve seen.
Drone7
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Re: FA Activity/Rumor Thread

Sat Mar 21, 2020 6:28 pm

then again, it doesn't help when Funchess broke his collarbone in week 1 and was IRd for the rest of the season. Hard to know about his hands after handling Newton's rockets--not the most catchable passer out there. Luck would have been good for him, but he retired.

He's not the type of WR they need anyway...Bears are slow and need speed not another possession receiver.
RichH55
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Re: FA Activity/Rumor Thread

Sun Mar 22, 2020 10:51 am

Drone7 wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 6:28 pm
then again, it doesn't help when Funchess broke his collarbone in week 1 and was IRd for the rest of the season. Hard to know about his hands after handling Newton's rockets--not the most catchable passer out there. Luck would have been good for him, but he retired.

He's not the type of WR they need anyway...Bears are slow and need speed not another possession receiver.

Bad is bad - The Brissett contract, Funches, and the Desir extension - along were the absolutely perplexing Hoyer deal - Not a great offseason for the Colts there (The Houston deal looks good though - but he's a FA next offseason)

Interesting team to monitor - I think with the bad Brissett and Hoyer contracts - along with the potentially smart Rivers contract - They are spending something like $52 MILLION on QB Cap Hits this year (*)

(*) Unless the reporting on Hoyer is wrong - though I haven't seen that - he got $9 million in guarantees and only $3 million was paid last year
The Cooler King
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Re: FA Activity/Rumor Thread

Sun Mar 22, 2020 12:12 pm

Oh God, can we not bring the "turn every thread into a litigation of Ballard" onto this forum too you guys?
Fka "BillGeorge61" @CBFans.net
RichH55
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Re: FA Activity/Rumor Thread

Sun Mar 22, 2020 1:09 pm

It can have its own thread - Bad is still bad though:)

Any more rumors on Jefferson?
cblaz11
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Re: FA Activity/Rumor Thread

Sun Mar 22, 2020 1:17 pm

Lol....are we giving GMs a pass if for signing bad deals if the guy gets hurt?

Chris Ballard is loved by members of the Chicago media because years ago he was the “unnamed source” for a lot of their stories. Now, because of the bias Chicago fans think he’s some great GM.

He has made some BONE HEADED decisions yet some Bears fans prop him up while bashing Pace.
Drone7
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Re: FA Activity/Rumor Thread

Sun Mar 22, 2020 1:29 pm

I ought to listen, maybe even heed you more often, since you even know unnamed sources along with boneheaded moves.

I've had you all wrong.

My apologies.
RichH55
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Re: FA Activity/Rumor Thread

Sun Mar 22, 2020 1:56 pm

Anyone honest can see the Boneheaded Moves though

Though I liked the Rivers move

Didn't understand the need to trade a Top 15 pick to the 49ers though
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Richie
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Re: FA Activity/Rumor Thread

Sun Mar 22, 2020 2:58 pm

RichH55 wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 10:51 am
Drone7 wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 6:28 pm
then again, it doesn't help when Funchess broke his collarbone in week 1 and was IRd for the rest of the season. Hard to know about his hands after handling Newton's rockets--not the most catchable passer out there. Luck would have been good for him, but he retired.

He's not the type of WR they need anyway...Bears are slow and need speed not another possession receiver.

Bad is bad - The Brissett contract, Funches, and the Desir extension - along were the absolutely perplexing Hoyer deal - Not a great offseason for the Colts there (The Houston deal looks good though - but he's a FA next offseason)

Interesting team to monitor - I think with the bad Brissett and Hoyer contracts - along with the potentially smart Rivers contract - They are spending something like $52 MILLION on QB Cap Hits this year (*)

(*) Unless the reporting on Hoyer is wrong - though I haven't seen that - he got $9 million in guarantees and only $3 million was paid last year
Brissett pre and post knee injury at the midway point last year was two different QB's. I still like him and think he could find success in this league.

20 mil guaranteed over two years is not bad for a guy that was your starting QB and did a decent job, at that.

Hoyer's deal was 3 years for 12. That's pretty typical vet backup money. Cutting him saved 2 mil in cap space.

And even despite all of those moves they're still 8th in available cap space. They had a lot coming into the off-season.

I think they're managing just fine.
Year 3 Starting (updated yearly)

Brees (11-4): 65.5% (7th) 7.9 Y/A (7th) 27 TD (7th) 6.8 TD% (4th) 7 INT 1.8 INT% (3rd) 104 Rating (3rd)

Trubisky (8-7): 63.2% (18th) 6.1 Y/A (32nd) 17 TD (27th) 3.3 TD% (30th) 10 INT 1.9 INT% (15th) 83 Rating (28th)
Drone7
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Re: FA Activity/Rumor Thread

Sun Mar 22, 2020 4:06 pm

Richie wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 2:58 pm
RichH55 wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 10:51 am



Bad is bad - The Brissett contract, Funches, and the Desir extension - along were the absolutely perplexing Hoyer deal - Not a great offseason for the Colts there (The Houston deal looks good though - but he's a FA next offseason)

Interesting team to monitor - I think with the bad Brissett and Hoyer contracts - along with the potentially smart Rivers contract - They are spending something like $52 MILLION on QB Cap Hits this year (*)

(*) Unless the reporting on Hoyer is wrong - though I haven't seen that - he got $9 million in guarantees and only $3 million was paid last year
Brissett pre and post knee injury at the midway point last year was two different QB's. I still like him and think he could find success in this league.

20 mil guaranteed over two years is not bad for a guy that was your starting QB and did a decent job, at that.

Hoyer's deal was 3 years for 12. That's pretty typical vet backup money. Cutting him saved 2 mil in cap space.

And even despite all of those moves they're still 8th in available cap space. They had a lot coming into the off-season.

I think they're managing just fine.
:clap:

Not to mention MCL'd Brissett also suffered the loss of his best 2 receivers for most of the season--TY Hilton, Funchess (and Ebron)

Belichick just picked up that bum Hoyer for the 3rd time today...crazy dude that Belichick.
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Re: FA Activity/Rumor Thread

Tue Mar 24, 2020 11:40 am

Drone7 wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 4:06 pm
Richie wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 2:58 pm


Brissett pre and post knee injury at the midway point last year was two different QB's. I still like him and think he could find success in this league.

20 mil guaranteed over two years is not bad for a guy that was your starting QB and did a decent job, at that.

Hoyer's deal was 3 years for 12. That's pretty typical vet backup money. Cutting him saved 2 mil in cap space.

And even despite all of those moves they're still 8th in available cap space. They had a lot coming into the off-season.

I think they're managing just fine.
:clap:

Not to mention MCL'd Brissett also suffered the loss of his best 2 receivers for most of the season--TY Hilton, Funchess (and Ebron)

Belichick just picked up that bum Hoyer for the 3rd time today...crazy dude that Belichick.


Man. - people are really willing to double and triple down on Stupid here too.

52 Million for the QB position - if you want to take some of the Hoyer money off - ok I guess? (Though it would have been dumb to designate him a post June 1 cut (I can explain if necessary) 45+ Million for the QB Position is just a Mistake. (*NOTE: It's actually HIGHER since Andrew Luck counts like 6+ million against the Cap - though that really isn't the GMs fault)

I mean - frankly I am upset that Jimmy Graham is overpaid by a couple of million - if we were paying 15 -20 million more than Russell Wilson (top 5 Cap Hit at the position) there? I'd be furious

Defending it? Insane


Also - Did the Colts GM not get the memo you are allowed to have good WR? (Putting aside people somehow still defending the Funches pickup). (A good reason they have so much Cap Space - they don't have a lot of talent)

Though - if your big asset is going to be Cap Room - then TRADING a 1st Round pick to Use it - sees like a bad idea too

Hoyer is making like $1 million this year - and there is a pretty good chance he's going to be the 3rd string QB - He won't play for the Pats this year unless they get into Tank mode

You can see how that is different than giving him $9 million guaranteed right?

Bears mentioning:
The Brissett contract was just a terrible idea NO MATTER what.

I mean - they HAD him at $2 Million for the season last year - that was the contract.

For some reason what they did: Give him $30 million for 2 years with $20 million guaranteed

So your options are:
1) Play out the year -
A)If bad - let hit market
B) If great - Franchise him (Looks to be about $27 million) (actually LESS than what you are paying him in total somehow)
2). Sign to Long term deal before last season (Chances are this is a SIMILAR amount of guaranteed money - but even pushing it up $10 million in guarantees to $30 million with basically an out after Year 2 - means the SAME amount of $$$ as the contract he signed for 2 Years

Just in that way your'd be getting essentially options on Years 3-5 at a bunch UNDER the QB market (IF he was good - which he isn't but whatever)

I.E. You build in SOME upside to the contract.


The Colts signed him to a contract that somehow BOTH locked in ALL potential downside (he's terrible in 2019 and you have to cut him and eat a bunch of Dead Cap Space in 2020) and NONE of the Upside (If he's Great in 2019 you don't have ANY years 2021 or on at a Smaller Cap Hit and you are paying him ALREADY as if he was good enough to get the Franchise tag)

It's just a GM who does not understand the process
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BreadNCircuses
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Re: FA Activity/Rumor Thread

Thu Mar 26, 2020 7:54 am

RichH55 wrote:
Tue Mar 24, 2020 11:40 am
Drone7 wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 4:06 pm


:clap:

Not to mention MCL'd Brissett also suffered the loss of his best 2 receivers for most of the season--TY Hilton, Funchess (and Ebron)

Belichick just picked up that bum Hoyer for the 3rd time today...crazy dude that Belichick.


Man. - people are really willing to double and triple down on Stupid here too.

52 Million for the QB position - if you want to take some of the Hoyer money off - ok I guess? (Though it would have been dumb to designate him a post June 1 cut (I can explain if necessary) 45+ Million for the QB Position is just a Mistake. (*NOTE: It's actually HIGHER since Andrew Luck counts like 6+ million against the Cap - though that really isn't the GMs fault)

I mean - frankly I am upset that Jimmy Graham is overpaid by a couple of million - if we were paying 15 -20 million more than Russell Wilson (top 5 Cap Hit at the position) there? I'd be furious

Defending it? Insane


Also - Did the Colts GM not get the memo you are allowed to have good WR? (Putting aside people somehow still defending the Funches pickup). (A good reason they have so much Cap Space - they don't have a lot of talent)

Though - if your big asset is going to be Cap Room - then TRADING a 1st Round pick to Use it - sees like a bad idea too

Hoyer is making like $1 million this year - and there is a pretty good chance he's going to be the 3rd string QB - He won't play for the Pats this year unless they get into Tank mode

You can see how that is different than giving him $9 million guaranteed right?

Bears mentioning:
The Brissett contract was just a terrible idea NO MATTER what.

I mean - they HAD him at $2 Million for the season last year - that was the contract.

For some reason what they did: Give him $30 million for 2 years with $20 million guaranteed

So your options are:
1) Play out the year -
A)If bad - let hit market
B) If great - Franchise him (Looks to be about $27 million) (actually LESS than what you are paying him in total somehow)
2). Sign to Long term deal before last season (Chances are this is a SIMILAR amount of guaranteed money - but even pushing it up $10 million in guarantees to $30 million with basically an out after Year 2 - means the SAME amount of $$$ as the contract he signed for 2 Years

Just in that way your'd be getting essentially options on Years 3-5 at a bunch UNDER the QB market (IF he was good - which he isn't but whatever)

I.E. You build in SOME upside to the contract.


The Colts signed him to a contract that somehow BOTH locked in ALL potential downside (he's terrible in 2019 and you have to cut him and eat a bunch of Dead Cap Space in 2020) and NONE of the Upside (If he's Great in 2019 you don't have ANY years 2021 or on at a Smaller Cap Hit and you are paying him ALREADY as if he was good enough to get the Franchise tag)

It's just a GM who does not understand the process
I understand your argument here, but I think you're missing a key element here:

There's no way Brissett's agent wasn't quietly pressuring them -- we want more money or we hold out, and then you truly have nothing at QB. Yeah, he had a contract for $2 million, but let's not pretend he didn't also have profound leverage with Luck's sudden retirement in preseason and no starting caliber QB available anywhere.

The money they gave him for 2 years is absolutely in-line with low-end starter money for anyone not on a rookie contract.

At least, if I were his agent, there's no way I would have let him go into the year as the undisputed starter for only $2 million a year. They had leverage, they used it.
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Re: FA Activity/Rumor Thread

Thu Mar 26, 2020 9:04 pm

It's a fair point - but he also earned nothing (Luck retiring is not the same as earning or outplaying a contract) -

So the GM doesn't need to be played (OR if he IS going to get played - get a 4 year deal where years 3 and 4 - at least in theory - could be bargains if the QB is actually good)

Also IIRC Brissett helped negotiate this himself:
https://www.nbcsports.com/boston/patrio ... -bs-agents
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Re: FA Activity/Rumor Thread

Fri Mar 27, 2020 2:01 pm

RichH55 wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 9:04 pm
It's a fair point - but he also earned nothing (Luck retiring is not the same as earning or outplaying a contract) -

So the GM doesn't need to be played (OR if he IS going to get played - get a 4 year deal where years 3 and 4 - at least in theory - could be bargains if the QB is actually good)

Also IIRC Brissett helped negotiate this himself:
https://www.nbcsports.com/boston/patrio ... -bs-agents
Supply and Demand is a harsh mistress. Luck retiring 2 weeks before the start of the regular season put the Colts firmly behind the 8 ball and Brissett had all the leverage on his end. Doing it himself was an incredibly baller move -- try telling the guy your entire season depends on that, no, he's got to play on his 2 million contract rather than getting paid what a starting QB makes. He made them give him a very fair contract in terms of per-year cost for a starter.

If the Colts tried to stonewall him, he could have walked away and sunk their whole season, and with it their entire sales for the next two years at least.

Point being, the GM wasn't the one with the leverage in that situation and Brissett got fair value on a per-year basis for a short term contract.
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Re: FA Activity/Rumor Thread

Fri Mar 27, 2020 4:44 pm

BreadNCircuses wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 2:01 pm
RichH55 wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 9:04 pm
It's a fair point - but he also earned nothing (Luck retiring is not the same as earning or outplaying a contract) -

So the GM doesn't need to be played (OR if he IS going to get played - get a 4 year deal where years 3 and 4 - at least in theory - could be bargains if the QB is actually good)

Also IIRC Brissett helped negotiate this himself:
https://www.nbcsports.com/boston/patrio ... -bs-agents
Supply and Demand is a harsh mistress. Luck retiring 2 weeks before the start of the regular season put the Colts firmly behind the 8 ball and Brissett had all the leverage on his end. Doing it himself was an incredibly baller move -- try telling the guy your entire season depends on that, no, he's got to play on his 2 million contract rather than getting paid what a starting QB makes. He made them give him a very fair contract in terms of per-year cost for a starter.

If the Colts tried to stonewall him, he could have walked away and sunk their whole season, and with it their entire sales for the next two years at least.

Point being, the GM wasn't the one with the leverage in that situation and Brissett got fair value on a per-year basis for a short term contract.

I can't think of a single backup on a rookie contract who was able to pull anything like that sort of power play.

If you do that to the Colts - with his limited resume - that is the end of his career.

It might have only been $2 million he was making - but he's a FA after the year - absolutely gifted a starting job - has proven nothing - that is an opportunity for Brissett.


There is a smart GM who says - once Luck retires - if Brissett wants to "sink our season". (and even with Brissett you are an underdog to make the playoffs even - let alone contend once in them) - Good- I'll pick a QB #1 next year - use my cap room and good OL to buttress him - Get some WR better than D. Funches

It's a bad GM that says " Yes Mr Brissett - sorry sir - what kind of contract can we give you ? Will cash be ok??!?"

Because that Bad GM has an iffy 2019 then winds up spending - somehow - $50-60 MILLION on the QB position in 2020 and isn't guaranteed all that much in the way of production
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Re: FA Activity/Rumor Thread

Fri Mar 27, 2020 10:15 pm

Again, I'm not arguing that Indy has a smart GM. I'm arguing that Brissett had them over a barrel after Luck's sudden retirement, and used his leverage appropriately to get a reasonable short-term deal for that year and the next year to bring him up to low-end starter money. (https://overthecap.com/player/jacoby-brissett/4804/). The GM isn't the only party in the negotiation -- Brissett would have had to be stupid not to have negotiated for more money once he became the unquestioned starter 2 weeks before the season, and the Colts would have been stupid to refuse him -- you can't expect the guy leading your team to be satisfied putting himself at risk for a million a year (According to Over the Cap, over the course of his first 4 years, he'd made $3,410,832 total). It's not like he locked the Colts into a 5 year deal. He got a 1 year extension and enough new money to bring his 2019 salary up to high-end rookie QB salary. That's not an unreasonable ask.

He went from a low-end rookie cap number in 2018 to a $8,525,000 cap number in 2019, and then $21,375,000 cap number in 2020, and then deal's done. Evaluating that purely from the perspective of what a team is paying their starting QB, that's still very affordable.
For context, in 2019, Chase Daniel was the top-paid backup QB, at $6 mil a year, and high drafted guys on their rookie deals (Trubisky, $7,917,937, Mayfield, $7,427,950, Darnold, $6,874,476,)

Notes from Over the Cap:
Jacoby Brissett signed a one year extension with the Indianapolis Colts on Sept 3, 2019. The contract is worth $30 million in total paper value, and $27,975,000 in new money. Brissett received a $11 million signing bonus and guaranteed $2 million base salary in 2019. Brissett can earn up to $2 million ($146,000 per game active) in roster bonuses. However this amount is treated as a signing bonus since the contract was signed during the preseason, the $2 million will be pro-rated over two years. On the 3rd day of the 2020 league year Brissett will earn a $7 million roster bonus, which became guaranteed on September 6, 2019. Brissett can also earn another $2 million ($146,00 per game active) in roster bonuses.
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Re: FA Activity/Rumor Thread

Sat Mar 28, 2020 11:46 pm

BreadNCircuses wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 10:15 pm
Again, I'm not arguing that Indy has a smart GM. I'm arguing that Brissett had them over a barrel after Luck's sudden retirement, and used his leverage appropriately to get a reasonable short-term deal for that year and the next year to bring him up to low-end starter money. (https://overthecap.com/player/jacoby-brissett/4804/). The GM isn't the only party in the negotiation -- Brissett would have had to be stupid not to have negotiated for more money once he became the unquestioned starter 2 weeks before the season, and the Colts would have been stupid to refuse him -- you can't expect the guy leading your team to be satisfied putting himself at risk for a million a year (According to Over the Cap, over the course of his first 4 years, he'd made $3,410,832 total). It's not like he locked the Colts into a 5 year deal. He got a 1 year extension and enough new money to bring his 2019 salary up to high-end rookie QB salary. That's not an unreasonable ask.

He went from a low-end rookie cap number in 2018 to a $8,525,000 cap number in 2019, and then $21,375,000 cap number in 2020, and then deal's done. Evaluating that purely from the perspective of what a team is paying their starting QB, that's still very affordable.
For context, in 2019, Chase Daniel was the top-paid backup QB, at $6 mil a year, and high drafted guys on their rookie deals (Trubisky, $7,917,937, Mayfield, $7,427,950, Darnold, $6,874,476,)

Notes from Over the Cap:
Jacoby Brissett signed a one year extension with the Indianapolis Colts on Sept 3, 2019. The contract is worth $30 million in total paper value, and $27,975,000 in new money. Brissett received a $11 million signing bonus and guaranteed $2 million base salary in 2019. Brissett can earn up to $2 million ($146,000 per game active) in roster bonuses. However this amount is treated as a signing bonus since the contract was signed during the preseason, the $2 million will be pro-rated over two years. On the 3rd day of the 2020 league year Brissett will earn a $7 million roster bonus, which became guaranteed on September 6, 2019. Brissett can also earn another $2 million ($146,00 per game active) in roster bonuses.
It's a bad contract on Day 1. That's the problem. I don't think he had the leverage you are assuming either BTW.

The CBA doesn't really give Brissett that leverage either
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Re: FA Activity/Rumor Thread

Sun Mar 29, 2020 11:04 am

RichH55 wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 11:46 pm
BreadNCircuses wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 10:15 pm
Again, I'm not arguing that Indy has a smart GM. I'm arguing that Brissett had them over a barrel after Luck's sudden retirement, and used his leverage appropriately to get a reasonable short-term deal for that year and the next year to bring him up to low-end starter money. (https://overthecap.com/player/jacoby-brissett/4804/). The GM isn't the only party in the negotiation -- Brissett would have had to be stupid not to have negotiated for more money once he became the unquestioned starter 2 weeks before the season, and the Colts would have been stupid to refuse him -- you can't expect the guy leading your team to be satisfied putting himself at risk for a million a year (According to Over the Cap, over the course of his first 4 years, he'd made $3,410,832 total). It's not like he locked the Colts into a 5 year deal. He got a 1 year extension and enough new money to bring his 2019 salary up to high-end rookie QB salary. That's not an unreasonable ask.

He went from a low-end rookie cap number in 2018 to a $8,525,000 cap number in 2019, and then $21,375,000 cap number in 2020, and then deal's done. Evaluating that purely from the perspective of what a team is paying their starting QB, that's still very affordable.
For context, in 2019, Chase Daniel was the top-paid backup QB, at $6 mil a year, and high drafted guys on their rookie deals (Trubisky, $7,917,937, Mayfield, $7,427,950, Darnold, $6,874,476,)

Notes from Over the Cap:
Jacoby Brissett signed a one year extension with the Indianapolis Colts on Sept 3, 2019. The contract is worth $30 million in total paper value, and $27,975,000 in new money. Brissett received a $11 million signing bonus and guaranteed $2 million base salary in 2019. Brissett can earn up to $2 million ($146,000 per game active) in roster bonuses. However this amount is treated as a signing bonus since the contract was signed during the preseason, the $2 million will be pro-rated over two years. On the 3rd day of the 2020 league year Brissett will earn a $7 million roster bonus, which became guaranteed on September 6, 2019. Brissett can also earn another $2 million ($146,00 per game active) in roster bonuses.
It's a bad contract on Day 1. That's the problem. I don't think he had the leverage you are assuming either BTW.

The CBA doesn't really give Brissett that leverage either
It's not a bad contract. It's a short-term market-value one. Brissett was on the last year of his 4 year rookie deal. Brissett had all the leverage in the world -- he could simply refuse to play unless they pay him commensurate with any other starting QB. Players hold out every year for a new deal, some get it, some don't. Almost none of them have the situational leverage that Brissett had 2 weeks prior to the start of the regular season when he suddenly becomes the unquestioned starting QB, on the final year of his 4 year rookie deal.

He had all the leverage in the world to refuse to play unless they paid him more money. Worst case, the team refuses, so he decides to hold out pending fair compensation for a starting QB. If the team decided to refuse and release him, he signs a contract with someone else for more money (market value for a high-end backup) -- certainly the Steelers or another team hit by injuries last year would have brought him in given the opportunity. Alternately, same scenario but the Colts hold onto his contract, he sits out for a year, and then signs with another team for a high-end veteran backup amount. In either case, meanwhile for the Colts, the team tanks, season ticket sales tank, they take 2 years of damage to their revenue as a business, and also gain a reputation among players as being unreasonable.

Had he decided to play on that final year of his deal (which I can't find a number for what it was prior to the extension, let's call it $2 million for the sake of argument but it was likely less than that), he's exposing himself to a large amount of risk of injury, for way below comparative market value for a starting QB -- if he plays and takes a career-ending injury, he's made basically minimum money -- it would have been fiscally stupid on his part to take on that risk without additional compensation. You keep putting it exclusively in terms of him having proven nothing, but aren't taking into account the market -- prior to becoming the starting QB, he wasn't even making high-end backup QB money. What they paid him for a 1 year extension plus additional up front cash for starting last year is absolutely market value for a starting QB. As a comparison, consider Mike Glennon -- he came to the Bears in Free Agency to start his 5th year, with 18 starts under his belt (Brissett had 17) and worse statistical production, and got similar money several years back and it wasn't unreasonable by market standards.
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Re: FA Activity/Rumor Thread

Sun Mar 29, 2020 1:06 pm

BreadNCircuses wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 11:04 am
RichH55 wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 11:46 pm


It's a bad contract on Day 1. That's the problem. I don't think he had the leverage you are assuming either BTW.

The CBA doesn't really give Brissett that leverage either
It's not a bad contract. It's a short-term market-value one. Brissett was on the last year of his 4 year rookie deal. Brissett had all the leverage in the world -- he could simply refuse to play unless they pay him commensurate with any other starting QB. Players hold out every year for a new deal, some get it, some don't. Almost none of them have the situational leverage that Brissett had 2 weeks prior to the start of the regular season when he suddenly becomes the unquestioned starting QB, on the final year of his 4 year rookie deal.

He had all the leverage in the world to refuse to play unless they paid him more money. Worst case, the team refuses, so he decides to hold out pending fair compensation for a starting QB. If the team decided to refuse and release him, he signs a contract with someone else for more money (market value for a high-end backup) -- certainly the Steelers or another team hit by injuries last year would have brought him in given the opportunity. Alternately, same scenario but the Colts hold onto his contract, he sits out for a year, and then signs with another team for a high-end veteran backup amount. In either case, meanwhile for the Colts, the team tanks, season ticket sales tank, they take 2 years of damage to their revenue as a business, and also gain a reputation among players as being unreasonable.

Had he decided to play on that final year of his deal (which I can't find a number for what it was prior to the extension, let's call it $2 million for the sake of argument but it was likely less than that), he's exposing himself to a large amount of risk of injury, for way below comparative market value for a starting QB -- if he plays and takes a career-ending injury, he's made basically minimum money -- it would have been fiscally stupid on his part to take on that risk without additional compensation. You keep putting it exclusively in terms of him having proven nothing, but aren't taking into account the market -- prior to becoming the starting QB, he wasn't even making high-end backup QB money. What they paid him for a 1 year extension plus additional up front cash for starting last year is absolutely market value for a starting QB. As a comparison, consider Mike Glennon -- he came to the Bears in Free Agency to start his 5th year, with 18 starts under his belt (Brissett had 17) and worse statistical production, and got similar money several years back and it wasn't unreasonable by market standards.
He wasn't a Free Agent. He didn't earn the Starting QB job - Again, I can see a team rewarding a guy if he overperforms a contract (but even then they are going to want to lock in as much upside as they can i.e. not a 2 year deal to replace a 1 year deal. (But even when a guy outperforms a deal - holdouts are rather rare especially under this CBA)

He was set to earn $2 million (see here: http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap300000 ... m-contract)

The problem again with the "Market" - He was UNDER contract - there is not really a market there - especially for a player that had (and still has mind you) proven NOTHING to that point

Glennon - as a FA (AGAIN THATS A HUGE DIFFERENCE) wound up getting less money than Brissett - and the Glennon contract - as bad as it was - at least had SOME upside built in.

The CBA fines and the fact that Brissett had "earned" nothing - I think pretty clearly mitigate against the hold out danger. *(I also think that Chad Kelly has a better chance to be a good NFL QB - clear high % chance he NEVER is - but I think for Brissett it's roughly 0% )

The Colts - for some reason - deemed Hoyer worthy of $9million guaranteed - he couldn't have played 4 games for them? (Granted Hoyer is TERRIBLE - but if you as the GM think he's worth $ 9 million guaranteed - then why can't he play until Kelly is ready or the Brissett hold out is over?)


I'm just not getting the parallels here: When is the last QB to hold out on a rookie deal? (I'm struggling to remember even missing OTA type stuff let alone Week 1)

Dak didn't do it - and he had actually proven himself (at least to SOME degree) - Others have played under the Tag too.

Also "high-end veteran backup money" is NOT 1 year 28 million (Which is essentially what the Colts paid here - they got 1 more year with him and paid $28 million for that). 2 years 30 million instead of 1 year 2 million.

I don't think it hurt the Chargers or Steelers when their Running Backs (and especially in the case of Bell - a HB who played at a very HIGH level) held out for a long time.

And the Colts ARE paying Andrew Luck - wouldn't that have mitigated the supposed (which I disagree with) Reputation hit?

And if you think Brissett IS the goods - and are willing to give him money upfront via extension WITHOUT making him PROVE it - Why isn't there a Year 3 and 4 in that contract? Hey Jacoby - we will give you $20 million guaranteed (especially $28 million extra overall since Year 2 is structured to only save us backup QB money if we cut you) BUT we get Year 3 at $20-22 million and Year 4 (if we even want it) at $20-25 million - Basic competency as a GM

Players play at under their worth ALL the time. Players play under a Franchise Tag ALL the time. Players - who have MADE Pro Bowls - Proving ANYTHING - Holdouts in the NFL - especially for Week 1 are absolutely exceedingly rare
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southdakbearfan
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Re: FA Activity/Rumor Thread

Sun Mar 29, 2020 2:41 pm

Brissett did have a shit ton of leverage because of the timing of Luck's retirement.

Indy literally had nobody else and nobody was on the market as it was during the preseason. Brissett says hey, renegotiate or I am holding out, bam new contract.
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BreadNCircuses
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Re: FA Activity/Rumor Thread

Mon Mar 30, 2020 6:53 am

southdakbearfan wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 2:41 pm
Brissett did have a shit ton of leverage because of the timing of Luck's retirement.

Indy literally had nobody else and nobody was on the market as it was during the preseason. Brissett says hey, renegotiate or I am holding out, bam new contract.
Yeah, that's what I keep trying to explain to this guy, but he doesn't seem to get it. Anyway, I'm done with trying.
The people who understand that leverage and market pressures exist in a limited talent environment get it, and the people who don't probably never will.
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wab
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Re: FA Activity/Rumor Thread

Mon Mar 30, 2020 8:42 am

Do I need to change this to "People give a shit about Jacoby Brissett for some reason" thread?
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southdakbearfan
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Re: FA Activity/Rumor Thread

Mon Mar 30, 2020 8:50 am

wab wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 8:42 am
Do I need to change this to "People give a shit about Jacoby Brissett for some reason" thread?
Lol.

Quarantine debate 7,632 would be another alternate title
RichH55
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Re: FA Activity/Rumor Thread

Mon Mar 30, 2020 9:28 am

southdakbearfan wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 2:41 pm
Brissett did have a shit ton of leverage because of the timing of Luck's retirement.

Indy literally had nobody else and nobody was on the market as it was during the preseason. Brissett says hey, renegotiate or I am holding out, bam new contract.
They went and signed another guy for $9 million guaranteed though. And there was no smoke or anything that this unproven guy was going to hold out - just NONE.

If he holds out - that hampers his career for various reasons
1) Kills trust with Colts (one of the few teams that might think he's a starting caliber)
2) He has basically no tape - and the tape he does have - not good - He needed to prove himself in 2019
3) Free Agency/Fines/Service Time


If you are going to just give him and extra $28 million - just cause - you need two things:
1) A belief that he is Good.
2) Something for the team - i.e. Potentially reasonable Years 3 and 4

Defending the signing is a lot like defending the Mike Glennon signing - only you capture less upside!

Hurrah?
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southdakbearfan
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Re: FA Activity/Rumor Thread

Mon Mar 30, 2020 9:41 am

Obviously they thought Brissett could potentially bloom so they bumped him to well below average starter money for two seasons. Nobody knows if Brissett would have held out but he was holding all the cards. The money hasn't stopped them from signing anyone.

They paid him 15 per aav, contract is a little backloaded but that was just the way they wanted it for some reason, I don’t know all the implications that lucks contract had with him retiring if any.

They paid a backup 9 mill, as he was known as a decent backup.

I am still struggling to see what was egregious in any of this.

It didn’t work, they cut said backup, signed a veteran starter and are out of Brissett’s deal after this year, which still hasn’t precluded them from signing anyone.
RichH55
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Re: FA Activity/Rumor Thread

Mon Mar 30, 2020 9:47 am

BreadNCircuses wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 6:53 am
southdakbearfan wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 2:41 pm
Brissett did have a shit ton of leverage because of the timing of Luck's retirement.

Indy literally had nobody else and nobody was on the market as it was during the preseason. Brissett says hey, renegotiate or I am holding out, bam new contract.
Yeah, that's what I keep trying to explain to this guy, but he doesn't seem to get it. Anyway, I'm done with trying.
The people who understand that leverage and market pressures exist in a limited talent environment get it, and the people who don't probably never will.

Also debating the particulars of the situation is one thing (we disagree there as I've noted)

But the larger point : It was a BAD contract stands regardless.

Your point is that this was a Godfather offer - He was essentially forced to do it (the poor GM and his staff of people who negotiate contracts for a living v. the big bad player negotiating for himself with next to no experience at it!)

Do people think that the guy who signed the contract in the Godfather got a good business deal out of it?
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Re: FA Activity/Rumor Thread

Mon Mar 30, 2020 9:48 am

What does Brissett have to do with Bears FA? Which is what I thought this thread was for

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