Bears sign DE Robert Quinn to 5yr, $70M deal

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southdakbearfan
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Re: Bears sign DE Robert Quinn to 5yr, $70M deal

Thu Mar 19, 2020 10:04 am

I would look for him to play with his hand in the dirt most of the time.
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Re: Bears sign DE Robert Quinn to 5yr, $70M deal

Thu Mar 19, 2020 1:38 pm

southdakbearfan wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 10:04 am
I would look for him to play with his hand in the dirt most of the time.
Yea. Year old data, but in 2018 teams only ran base 25% of the time, down from 33% in 2017.
https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat- ... l-analysis

So a nickel in a 3/4 or 4/3 typically don't look that different. One looks like a 2-4 and the other a 4-2, but alignment isn't that different apart from normal alignment variances. So Quinn going hand in dirt or 2pt stance really isn't a big issue alignment wise. You can't disguise coverages as much, but let's just NOT drop Quinn or Mack into coverage as a general rule.
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Re: Bears sign DE Robert Quinn to 5yr, $70M deal

Thu Mar 19, 2020 1:46 pm

The Cooler King wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 1:38 pm
southdakbearfan wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 10:04 am
I would look for him to play with his hand in the dirt most of the time.
Yea. Year old data, but in 2018 teams only ran base 25% of the time, down from 33% in 2017.
https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat- ... l-analysis

So a nickel in a 3/4 or 4/3 typically don't look that different. One looks like a 2-4 and the other a 4-2, but alignment isn't that different apart from normal alignment variances. So Quinn going hand in dirt or 2pt stance really isn't a big issue alignment wise. You can't disguise coverages as much, but let's just NOT drop Quinn or Mack into coverage as a general rule.
Agreed

Probably will see some sub packages and rotational stuff to limit pass coverage duties as well.
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Re: Bears sign DE Robert Quinn to 5yr, $70M deal

Mon Mar 23, 2020 9:42 pm

Chuck Pagano's defensive rankings in 5 years with Indy: 26th, 20th, 11th, 26th, 30th, and 30th.
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Re: Bears sign DE Robert Quinn to 5yr, $70M deal

Mon Mar 23, 2020 11:21 pm

The Cooler King wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 1:38 pm
southdakbearfan wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 10:04 am
I would look for him to play with his hand in the dirt most of the time.
Yea. Year old data, but in 2018 teams only ran base 25% of the time, down from 33% in 2017.
https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat- ... l-analysis

So a nickel in a 3/4 or 4/3 typically don't look that different. One looks like a 2-4 and the other a 4-2, but alignment isn't that different apart from normal alignment variances. So Quinn going hand in dirt or 2pt stance really isn't a big issue alignment wise. You can't disguise coverages as much, but let's just NOT drop Quinn or Mack into coverage as a general rule.
It's not so much about the alignment as the personnel. If you rush both Mack and Quinn all the time, you're basically going to a four man defensive line with Mack and Quinn as DEs. It doesn't matter if you go to a nickel or not. The impact is felt along the DL. Who do you drop out? You have Hicks, Goldman, Nichols, and RRH. If you're rushing BOTH Mack and Quinn and not blitzing, you're either going to have to drop down to only two other Defensive Linemen or one of those Defensive Linemen will have to drop into coverage in a zone blitz scenario.

So are we basically saying we're scraping the 3-4 and basically going to a four man defensive line with Quinn and Mack as our DEs? I mean if you rush both Quinn and Mack all the time, that's basically what you have right?

Let me make it clear that I'm not against that happening at all, I just want to be positive that's what everybody is conceding here.
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Re: Bears sign DE Robert Quinn to 5yr, $70M deal

Tue Mar 24, 2020 12:32 am

Yogi da Bear wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 11:21 pm
The Cooler King wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 1:38 pm


Yea. Year old data, but in 2018 teams only ran base 25% of the time, down from 33% in 2017.
https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat- ... l-analysis

So a nickel in a 3/4 or 4/3 typically don't look that different. One looks like a 2-4 and the other a 4-2, but alignment isn't that different apart from normal alignment variances. So Quinn going hand in dirt or 2pt stance really isn't a big issue alignment wise. You can't disguise coverages as much, but let's just NOT drop Quinn or Mack into coverage as a general rule.
It's not so much about the alignment as the personnel. If you rush both Mack and Quinn all the time, you're basically going to a four man defensive line with Mack and Quinn as DEs. It doesn't matter if you go to a nickel or not. The impact is felt along the DL. Who do you drop out? You have Hicks, Goldman, Nichols, and RRH. If you're rushing BOTH Mack and Quinn and not blitzing, you're either going to have to drop down to only two other Defensive Linemen or one of those Defensive Linemen will have to drop into coverage in a zone blitz scenario.

So are we basically saying we're scraping the 3-4 and basically going to a four man defensive line with Quinn and Mack as our DEs? I mean if you rush both Quinn and Mack all the time, that's basically what you have right?

Let me make it clear that I'm not against that happening at all, I just want to be positive that's what everybody is conceding here.
I just think you're way overestimating the whole 3-4 4-3 alignment issue.

But yea, I guess to the extent that a 3-4 plays in a nickel, it's a lot like a 4 man front. And they'll be in nickel or dime probably 65-75% of the time. Its really not conceding or changing anything.

Hell, call them a 2-4 defense that goes 3-4 in heavy personnel against certain situations (like a 12 personnel), if that makes you feel better because thats basically what it is.
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Re: Bears sign DE Robert Quinn to 5yr, $70M deal

Tue Mar 24, 2020 1:20 am

Well, then here's something for you to consider out of our base:

Everybody so far has been considering Quinn as an OLB. But apparently he doesn't like standing up. In fact, I could find no film of him at all standing up. So, let's just make Quinn our weakside DE.

You shade Goldman to his side and play Hicks at strong side DE. And Mack prefers to be standing up apparently. So you keep the 3-4 and move Mack from side to side. He's either lining alongside Hicks on the strong side or he's lining up outside Quinn on the weak side. Ouch and double ouch. RRH and Bilal then become rotational pieces for the DL.

But get this, and I bet many here won't agree, but from our base 3-4 you make Mingo our off linebacker opposite Mack. Mingo has shown he can play off ball OLB. He's also shown if you can get him a clear lane to the QB, he'll get there. Think of how many clear lanes he'll see with Quinn, Mack, and Hicks. And then in nickel, you simply sub out Mingo.

Makes sense to me. And I think that this is something Pagano wanted as he coached Mingo in Indy and knew what he could bring to the table.

We're going to be a downright scary fucking defense.
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Re: Bears sign DE Robert Quinn to 5yr, $70M deal

Tue Mar 24, 2020 1:22 am

Or Quinn just puts his hand in the dirt from basically the same spot he'd be. Simple.
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Re: Bears sign DE Robert Quinn to 5yr, $70M deal

Tue Mar 24, 2020 1:24 am

Which would make him a defensive end. ;)
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Re: Bears sign DE Robert Quinn to 5yr, $70M deal

Tue Mar 24, 2020 1:35 am

Semantics. Bottom line it doesn't entail the Bears changing their defense.
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Re: Bears sign DE Robert Quinn to 5yr, $70M deal

Tue Mar 24, 2020 2:03 am

The Cooler King wrote:
Tue Mar 24, 2020 1:35 am
Semantics. Bottom line it doesn't entail the Bears changing their defense.
Not really semantics and you're missing my point.

Quinn has only been a weakside DE his entire career. If you make him an "OLB" only with his hand in the dirt, you are changing our defense. In our normal defense, Mack flips from side to side depending on what we want to do. In doing so, the other OLB would normally flip sides as well (unless you want to run a gimmick defense as we did a few times with both Floyd and Mack on the same side).

Rather than make Quinn an OLB only with his hand in the dirt. You make him the weakside DE, a position he has always played. You then keep Mack as the 3-4 OLB with Mingo being the off OLB in our base. This doesn't change our defense at all and gives us the flexibility to still move our OLBs while Quinn plays the position he knows--weakside DE. That's what he is. I really believe this is why we brought in Mingo, not just for special teams but to play a role in our regular sets as well.
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Re: Bears sign DE Robert Quinn to 5yr, $70M deal

Tue Mar 24, 2020 8:57 am

The traditional 4-3 weak side DE lines up wider than any of the DEs ever would (whether in the 3-4 or nickel)

So yes, I guess I don't really understand your point.
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Re: Bears sign DE Robert Quinn to 5yr, $70M deal

Tue Mar 24, 2020 9:14 am

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Re: Bears sign DE Robert Quinn to 5yr, $70M deal

Tue Mar 24, 2020 9:23 am

A 3-4 alignment, 90% of the time that OLB is playing at the line or rushing the QB. So it is basically just like a 4-3. I get tired of all the different names for the alignments. The pre-snap and post snap formations, responsibilities change. Look at how many times Mack is playing on the line and he is called an OLB. No matter how shit is aligned, the majority of the time 4 guys are pressuring from the DL.
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Re: Bears sign DE Robert Quinn to 5yr, $70M deal

Tue Mar 24, 2020 10:17 am

Otis Day wrote:
Tue Mar 24, 2020 9:23 am
A 3-4 alignment, 90% of the time that OLB is playing at the line or rushing the QB. So it is basically just like a 4-3. I get tired of all the different names for the alignments. The pre-snap and post snap formations, responsibilities change. Look at how many times Mack is playing on the line and he is called an OLB. No matter how shit is aligned, the majority of the time 4 guys are pressuring from the DL.
Yup. And the "base" 3-4 and 4-3 are nearly dead. The base is now either a 4-2 or 2-4 depending on how you want to look at it. Those OLB are usually at the line and usually outside the shoulder of the T (or possible outside the TE if there is one). Standing up or hand in the dirt, the biggest change is their ability to drop into coverage or not, but in that front you probably want all 4 of those guys pass rushing like you said.

In that 25% of the time they are in that "heavier" 3-4 alignment, the offenses personnel or the game situation will likely dictate a lot of run situations or max protection passing schemes.
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Re: Bears sign DE Robert Quinn to 5yr, $70M deal

Tue Mar 24, 2020 11:15 am

Heck I would say it’s a 5-2 more often than a 3-4.
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Re: Bears sign DE Robert Quinn to 5yr, $70M deal

Tue Mar 24, 2020 12:14 pm

southdakbearfan wrote:
Tue Mar 24, 2020 11:15 am
Heck I would say it’s a 5-2 more often than a 3-4.
I wasn't going to go there, but it's arguably true.

Also keep in mind Quinn has only played at about 60% of snap counts the past few years. That included a couple missed games, but he probably won't be a 90%+ snap guy like Mack is. And you'll probably want to stagger their time, so it could be as little as 50% of the time they share the field, heavily skewed towards nickel/dime packages.
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Re: Bears sign DE Robert Quinn to 5yr, $70M deal

Tue Mar 24, 2020 12:18 pm

I'd still like to bring in Cam Wake for situational pass rushing
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Re: Bears sign DE Robert Quinn to 5yr, $70M deal

Tue Mar 24, 2020 2:34 pm

The Cooler King wrote:
Tue Mar 24, 2020 8:57 am
The traditional 4-3 weak side DE lines up wider than any of the DEs ever would (whether in the 3-4 or nickel)

So yes, I guess I don't really understand your point.
This is why I say you keep Quinn as a weakside DE, even a 4-3 DE. This is the role he knows and that he excels in. It's also why I say to shade our NT (Goldman in most instances) toward Quinn's side--to cover the fact that he's lined up wider than a normal 3-4 DE.

Most have been considering Quinn as our OLB opposite Mack. Even when you talk about, you kind of have him in that role only with his hand in the dirt. To me, that's the wrong way to look at it.

I say we keep Quinn's role as a 4-3 DE only playing in a 3-4. It's the role he knows and excels at and you let the rest of the defense adjust to him. He's not going to be dropping into coverage. He's not going to be switching side the way an ordinary 3-4 OLB does. And he's not going to be expected to play a two gap scheme the way an ordinary 3-4 DE does. Let him excel as a 4-3 DE that he is.

You then let another OLB fill that off linebacker to Mack in base. I believe that Mingo would be perfect in that role. As such, I think that Mingo's role is going to be much more than simply a special teamer or backup OLB. It's the role he played for Pagano in Indy. And then when you go nickel, you bring in Skrine for Mingo.

Am I making myself clearer?

I believe that Seattle actually ran this hybrid 3-4/4-3 front a few years ago.
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Re: Bears sign DE Robert Quinn to 5yr, $70M deal

Tue Mar 24, 2020 5:16 pm

I think you hit the nail on the head about hybrid concepts being used, but the Bears (and really most teams) already use tons of hybrid concepts. Most Ds today are primarily single gap schemes and they move around coverages and fronts (over/under) to match offensive personnel groupings, game situation and their own Ds personnel.

You're also overly focused on this base D alignment that will probably appear 25% of thr time or less. And if Quinn plays his ~60% of snaps he has the past few years, hell be in that base alignment even less.
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Re: Bears sign DE Robert Quinn to 5yr, $70M deal

Tue Mar 24, 2020 6:33 pm

I'm not trying to argue with you BG. I'm trying to explore the ramifications of the signings. It started with the idea that both Mack and Quinn should be rushing on nearly every down. I agree with that, so what are the ramifications of that:

First to go is the idea that Quinn was brought in to be an OLB opposite Mack. And this is where I point out that it's more about the personnel than the formation. You can't have Quinn on one side and Mack on the other with three defensive linemen between them as in a 3-4 alignment. If you did that then every time you rushed both Mack and Quinn you'd be blitzing.

The only thing that makes sense is that Quinn was brought in strictly as a defensive end, which is what he's played his entire career. And more specifically, probably strictly a weakside defensive end. He's never played anything else.

Once you reach the conclusion that Quinn is strictly a DE, then other ramifications become apparent. For one, the other OLBs become much more important. At least as important as RRH and Bilal as subs for out defensive linemen (including Quinn).

You rightly say that we'll be in base less than 25% of the time, but that's still a significant portion of the time. If Quinn is a DE and Mack one OLB, the other OLB has to come from somewhere. My gut tells me that's why we were able to convince Mingo to come here. I don't believe that he was brought in here strictly as a special teams. If you're even talking about us running base only 20% of the time, that's still a significant number of snaps for somebody who only played special teams last year. And what about when Mack needs a break? He will take some breathers. This will give even more time to our other OLBs.

This is what I've been driving toward, or at least, starting to realize as we talk through this topic.
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Re: Bears sign DE Robert Quinn to 5yr, $70M deal

Tue Mar 24, 2020 7:56 pm

Pagano had Robert Mathis and Dwight Freeney together in Indy his first season and used them in his 3-4 scheme. Seems similar to this situation, both guys called linebackers but both guys played mostly with a hand in the dirt.

My suggestion Yogi is not to get caught up in the position label, it's basically meaningless.
Chuck Pagano's defensive rankings in 5 years with Indy: 26th, 20th, 11th, 26th, 30th, and 30th.
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Re: Bears sign DE Robert Quinn to 5yr, $70M deal

Tue Mar 24, 2020 9:07 pm

dplank wrote:
Tue Mar 24, 2020 7:56 pm
My suggestion Yogi is not to get caught up in the position label, it's basically meaningless.
Again DP, it's not about the position label. It's about the personnel and where they'll be playing. If you want to consistently rush both Mack and Quinn when they're on the field at the same time, you're not going to have three down defensive linemen also as that would mean they'd be blitzing when they sent them both.

You can call it whatever you want, but I believe that Quinn will basically be lined up as a weakside 4-3 defensive end. That's the only position he's played that I've seen. Why would you change that? Mack will be lined up as a 3-4 OLB, a position he prefers. And as in the past, he'll probably be moved to one side or the other of the defensive alignment.

But what this means is that in base sets, another OLB will be used rather than a fourth defensive lineman (counting Quinn). This is what I'm trying to get at. And why we brought in Mingo and sold him on coming here.
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Re: Bears sign DE Robert Quinn to 5yr, $70M deal

Tue Mar 24, 2020 9:19 pm

I feel you're wrong. Mingo was brought for ST and to compete with Irving and Vaughters for the potentially 50% of snaps that Mack or Quinn won't take. Lineups with 3 OLB will be rarities, not a significant portion of the D.
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Re: Bears sign DE Robert Quinn to 5yr, $70M deal

Tue Mar 24, 2020 9:31 pm

But what I'm saying BG is there won't be three OLBs. Only two. Quinn is strictly a DE in our scheme. Or at least that's what I think he'll be. And he'll be substituted with a defensive lineman like RRH or Bilal. Mack will be substituted by an OLB and in base sets play opposite another OLB. Here's how I see our base set:

Defensive Line: DE Quinn, NT Goldman, DE Hicks
Linebackers: OLB Mack, ILB DT, ILB Roquan, OLB Mingo.

Bilal, RRH, and Urban will sub out the defensive line.
Vaughters and Irving will sub out the OLBs.

When we go to Nickel, the second OLB will drop out.
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Re: Bears sign DE Robert Quinn to 5yr, $70M deal

Tue Mar 24, 2020 9:33 pm

No. Quinn will be an OLB.

Which will look a lot like a 4-3 DE most of the time.
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Re: Bears sign DE Robert Quinn to 5yr, $70M deal

Tue Mar 24, 2020 9:57 pm

The Cooler King wrote:
Tue Mar 24, 2020 9:33 pm
No. Quinn will be an OLB.

Which will look a lot like a 4-3 DE most of the time.
How do you envision the base alignment personnel then?

Will Mack be the other OLB with three defensive linemen between them? If he is, if you rush them both, you'll be blitzing unless you drop one of the other defensive linemen in coverage. You see, it's not so much about verbiage. It's about the personnel you put on the field.

I don't think we're going to do that. I think the whole point of the Quinn signing is to get to the QB with only four.
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Re: Bears sign DE Robert Quinn to 5yr, $70M deal

Wed Mar 25, 2020 7:43 am

Our Nickle alignment will essentially be a 3-3-5 with personnel changing depending on down and distance. Though, as with Baltimore, we're just splitting hairs on alignment based on if a guy puts his hand in the dirt to get better acceleration. We could call it a 2-4 or a 4-2 as well.
-5 yards or more:
Hicks - RRH - Quinn = 3 DL; Mack - Smith - Trevathan = 3 LB's (I believe that RRH moved inside at the beginning of the year when everyone was healthy to pass rush)

In short yardage Nickle, Goldman comes in at the "nose"
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Re: Bears sign DE Robert Quinn to 5yr, $70M deal

Wed Mar 25, 2020 8:44 am

Yogi da Bear wrote:
Tue Mar 24, 2020 9:57 pm
The Cooler King wrote:
Tue Mar 24, 2020 9:33 pm
No. Quinn will be an OLB.

Which will look a lot like a 4-3 DE most of the time.
How do you envision the base alignment personnel then?

Will Mack be the other OLB with three defensive linemen between them? If he is, if you rush them both, you'll be blitzing unless you drop one of the other defensive linemen in coverage. You see, it's not so much about verbiage. It's about the personnel you put on the field.

I don't think we're going to do that. I think the whole point of the Quinn signing is to get to the QB with only four.
I don't know the answer here Yogi, but what did Denver do when they had Ware and Von Miller? They played a 3-4, and both played in their base defense. I don't remember any other player out there at OLB but those two guys. Broncos starters:

Defensive Starters
DE Malik Jackson 25 3 16 Denver Broncos / 5th / 137th pick / 2012
DE Derek Wolfe 25 3 12 Denver Broncos / 2nd / 36th pick / 2012
NT Sylvester Williams 27 2 15 2.5 sacks, 0 interceptions, 0 fumbles recovered Denver Broncos / 1st / 28th pick / 2013
LB Brandon Marshall 26 3 16 Jacksonville Jaguars / 5th / 142nd pick / 2012
LB Von Miller*+ 26 4 16 Denver Broncos / 1st / 2nd pick / 2011
LB Danny Trevathan 25 3 15 Denver Broncos / 6th / 188th pick / 2012
LB DeMarcus Ware* 33 10 10 Dallas Cowboys / 1st / 11th pick / 2005
LCB Aqib Talib* 29 7 15 0.0 sacks, 3 interceptions, 0 fumbles recovered Tampa Bay Buccaneers / 1st / 20th pick / 2008
RCB Chris Harris* 26 4 16 0.0 sacks, 2 interceptions, 0 fumbles recovered
SS T.J. Ward 29 5 12 2.0 sacks, 0 interceptions, 0 fumbles recovered Cleveland Browns / 2nd / 38th pick / 2010
FS Darian Stewart 27 5 13 0.0 sacks, 1 interception, 2 fumbles recovered
Chuck Pagano's defensive rankings in 5 years with Indy: 26th, 20th, 11th, 26th, 30th, and 30th.
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Re: Bears sign DE Robert Quinn to 5yr, $70M deal

Wed Mar 25, 2020 10:09 am

Ware is an interesting guy for this discussion- He was a guy who definitely fit "better" in a 3-4 and the 1 year he was more a 4-3 guy his play fell off

I'm guessing quite different responsibilities in the run game especially on early downs

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