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But damn, 2 yrs/12M that the Steelers just paid seems like a better deal than we just got for Graham.

dplank wrote: ↑Fri Mar 20, 2020 2:29 pm But damn, 2 yrs/12M that the Steelers just paid seems like a better deal than we just got for Graham.

You know, when you line up their stats over the past several season, it's funny how well they line up. Each guy had a TD heavy year the other didn't, but the receptions targets and yards do compare.

Obviously Ebron has some more youth on his side, but I'm not sure it's a given who will outperform over the next 2 years. I'm sure Paces familiarity with Graham did play into this, for good or for bad.

I was interested if deal was something like that and agree it's way better than Graham deal.

The Cooler King wrote: ↑Fri Mar 20, 2020 2:39 pm

dplank wrote: ↑Fri Mar 20, 2020 2:29 pm But damn, 2 yrs/12M that the Steelers just paid seems like a better deal than we just got for Graham.

You know, when you line up their stats over the past several season, it's funny how well they line up. Each guy had a TD heavy year the other didn't, but the receptions targets and yards do compare.

Obviously Ebron has some more youth on his side, but I'm not sure it's a given who will outperform over the next 2 years. I'm sure Paces familiarity with Graham did play into this, for good or for bad.

I don't think much of Ebron's big TD year. He scored as many TD's that year as he has in his entire career. That screams "fluke".

Outside of that he's been a perpetual underachiever and a perpetual headache. He adores mental lapses, not blocking and dropping footballs.

Each place he has left - the organization is happy that he's gone.

Just... keep that guy out of here. Like everyone, I don't love the Graham signing. However, I'll take him over Ebron.

Ebron has all of the talent in the world and is still pretty young. There's a reason it took all week for him to find a landing spot and a reason it only cost Pittsburgh 2/12.

*End of Ebron rant*

Richie wrote: ↑Fri Mar 20, 2020 4:03 pm

The Cooler King wrote: ↑Fri Mar 20, 2020 2:39 pm

You know, when you line up their stats over the past several season, it's funny how well they line up. Each guy had a TD heavy year the other didn't, but the receptions targets and yards do compare.

Obviously Ebron has some more youth on his side, but I'm not sure it's a given who will outperform over the next 2 years. I'm sure Paces familiarity with Graham did play into this, for good or for bad.

I don't think much of Ebron's big TD year. He scored as many TD's that year as he has in his entire career. That screams "fluke".

Outside of that he's been a perpetual underachiever and a perpetual headache. He adores mental lapses, not blocking and dropping footballs.

Each place he has left - the organization is happy that he's gone.

Just... keep that guy out of here. Like everyone, I don't love the Graham signing. However, I'll take him over Ebron.

Ebron has all of the talent in the world and is still pretty young. There's a reason it took all week for him to find a landing spot and a reason it only cost Pittsburgh 2/12.

*End of Ebron rant*

I agree with everything you say here. But what it tells me more than anything is just that we overpaid Graham. I'd still rather have Graham, just wish we would have gotten a better contract cause we're tight against the damn cap.

I already made it clear that I wanted Ebron. And at 2 mill less than I expected. Damn.

I think that one of the reasons Pace went with Graham is his injury history. But as I've pointed out already, Ebron's injury history is largely a myth. He's only missed 13 games in six years (5 of those as a rookie) and never has had a real serious injury like Graham has. Still, hard to beat Graham's only 7 games missed in 10 years.

The other reason is probably attitude. If Ebron's unhappy, he tends to disappear as he did last year. Graham is going to give you all he has, and I don't believe that he's slowed near as much as the pundits are claiming. I think he's still a 4.7 guy.

Finally, there's three inches and 15 pounds. He's more like a power forward out there versus a small forward. He blocks out well, as Deon Bush can attest from opening day last year.

So yeah, I wanted Ebron, but I'm okay with Graham.

Ebron's overall track record is quite bad though is the issue there. At least for me on him

Of course it would cost the Bears more regardless of who they got - because at the time it was where these players on offense would be going to die.

There’s a lot of smoke around Ebron not being a good teammate/locker room guy. Pace has built a clean locker room which is why I’ve been against him.

As far the the Graham deal, it’s more then we wold have preferred but clearly not too much above market value. I agree with Yogi, Pace needs some healthy experience in the TE room if Burton falters. We can get out of Burtons deal after this season with limited dead money.

Pace wants to make a serious playoff run and he doesn’t want injuries at TE to prevent that. I’m ok overspending to make it happen.

Graham has also remained incredibly healthy. Ebron... not so much.

Health and production are key points here - as well as just Graham being a professional (somewhat underrated in this discussion)

The other thing to remember - Graham v. Ebron - Signing Graham rather than Ebron nets you (probably) a Compensatory Draft pick

RichH55 wrote: ↑Sun Mar 22, 2020 1:13 pm Health and production are key points here - as well as just Graham being a professional (somewhat underrated in this discussion)

The other thing to remember - Graham v. Ebron - Signing Graham rather than Ebron nets you (probably) a Compensatory Draft pick

Your first point is pretty big to me. Ebron was just bad mouthed for his work ethic on the way out the door by Indy's organization. That and health are key points that are totally being missed within this conversation.

Honestly, last year Graham was efficient with his target share. He only got looked at 60 times but caught 38 of those passes for 11.8 yards per reception. Which is really good for a TE. Kelce had 12.7 Y/R.

I think we got the better teammate and the better player.

Richie wrote: ↑Sun Mar 22, 2020 3:13 pm

RichH55 wrote: ↑Sun Mar 22, 2020 1:13 pm Health and production are key points here - as well as just Graham being a professional (somewhat underrated in this discussion)

The other thing to remember - Graham v. Ebron - Signing Graham rather than Ebron nets you (probably) a Compensatory Draft pick

Your first point is pretty big to me. Ebron was just bad mouthed for his work ethic on the way out the door by Indy's organization. That and health are key points that are totally being missed within this conversation.

Honestly, last year Graham was efficient with his target share. He only got looked at 60 times but caught 38 of those passes for 11.8 yards per reception. Which is really good for a TE. Kelce had 12.7 Y/R.

I think we got the better teammate and the better player.

I think you hit it on the nose.

Agreed, and it looks like NFL GMs also agree - on Ebron’s value at least.

sure would be nice to draft a cmpetent 2way TE...for a change

Drone7 wrote: ↑Sun Mar 22, 2020 4:21 pm sure would be nice to draft a cmpetent 2way TE...for a change

Sure would. They're rather hard to find since the demands on the position are often uneven at the college level depending on the system -- are there any coming out this draft that you believe fit that title?

My issue with drafting a TE is that...

A) We have 127 of them already, lol. The position is also now rather solidified at the top and god knows there's a lot of depth fighting for the remaining couple of roster spots.

B) We're looking to win now and that position takes 2+ years to fully groom. You typically get VERY little production out of rookie TE's. Kelce, Gronk, Kittle, Olsen and Graham have had the best TE careers in recent memory. None of them were worth much to their team in their rookie season.

I have to say this Ebron thread is making me feel better about Graham.

Richie wrote: ↑Sun Mar 22, 2020 7:45 pm My issue with drafting a TE is that...

A) We have 127 of them already, lol. The position is also now rather solidified at the top and god knows there's a lot of depth fighting for the remaining couple of roster spots.

B) We're looking to win now and that position takes 2+ years to fully groom. You typically get VERY little production out of rookie TE's. Kelce, Gronk, Kittle, Olsen and Graham have had the best TE careers in recent memory. None of them were worth much to their team in their rookie season.

I agree completely. We signed Graham and Harris already. Burton will be back and at least start the year healthy. And we have Holtz, Shaheen, Braunecker, and Horsted all competing for the 4th spot. This is why I'd just go ahead and dump Shaheen or Braunecker right now, 1M or 1.5M cap savings is not insignificant as tight as we are against the cap right now. And we still need to at least get Coward back if we aren't gonna sign another OG. I could live with Coward + Rd2 draft pick for our open RG spot, it's not ideal but we can't have everything.

dplank wrote: ↑Mon Mar 23, 2020 9:31 am

Richie wrote: ↑Sun Mar 22, 2020 7:45 pm My issue with drafting a TE is that...

A) We have 127 of them already, lol. The position is also now rather solidified at the top and god knows there's a lot of depth fighting for the remaining couple of roster spots.

B) We're looking to win now and that position takes 2+ years to fully groom. You typically get VERY little production out of rookie TE's. Kelce, Gronk, Kittle, Olsen and Graham have had the best TE careers in recent memory. None of them were worth much to their team in their rookie season.

I agree completely. We signed Graham and Harris already. Burton will be back and at least start the year healthy. And we have Holtz, Shaheen, Braunecker, and Horsted all competing for the 4th spot. This is why I'd just go ahead and dump Shaheen or Braunecker right now, 1M or 1.5M cap savings is not insignificant as tight as we are against the cap right now. And we still need to at least get Coward back if we aren't gonna sign another OG. I could live with Coward + Rd2 draft pick for our open RG spot, it's not ideal but we can't have everything.

I think it's quite safe to say that we will be going with guard with one of our picks in round 2. Probably will select multiple guards in the draft.

dplank wrote: ↑Mon Mar 23, 2020 9:31 am

Richie wrote: ↑Sun Mar 22, 2020 7:45 pm My issue with drafting a TE is that...

A) We have 127 of them already, lol. The position is also now rather solidified at the top and god knows there's a lot of depth fighting for the remaining couple of roster spots.

B) We're looking to win now and that position takes 2+ years to fully groom. You typically get VERY little production out of rookie TE's. Kelce, Gronk, Kittle, Olsen and Graham have had the best TE careers in recent memory. None of them were worth much to their team in their rookie season.

I agree completely. We signed Graham and Harris already. Burton will be back and at least start the year healthy. And we have Holtz, Shaheen, Braunecker, and Horsted all competing for the 4th spot. This is why I'd just go ahead and dump Shaheen or Braunecker right now, 1M or 1.5M cap savings is not insignificant as tight as we are against the cap right now. And we still need to at least get Coward back if we aren't gonna sign another OG. I could live with Coward + Rd2 draft pick for our open RG spot, it's not ideal but we can't have everything.

I know the 1.5M or whatever sounds significant, but it's even less significant than you'd think. Teams need some cushion in season, so even if you freed it now, it's probably not allocatable to FA realistically. During the offseason where you only count the top 51, you can cut Shaheen or Braunecker, but that will bump up one of the minimum salary guys into the 51st slot which nets 610k against that savings.

As far as I'm concerned, the cap savings for both of those guys is just the in season cap flexibility you need, so now, or August makes zero difference.