Revisiting the "Bears don't value OL" discussion

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Yogi da Bear
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Re: Revisiting the "Bears don't value OL" discussion

Thu Jun 04, 2020 4:13 pm

I think it was after the Saint game when we only ran 7 times that Nagy said we actually called more runs than that as RPO but that Trubs chose to exercise the pass option. Pissed me off that he threw Trubs under the bus that way. And if Nagy was seeing that Trubs was consistently exercising the pass option, he should have FORCED the run option.

Rich, when I said it wouldn't surprise me if one of our rookies beat out Daniels at OG "eventually," I meant down the road. Certainly not as rookies. That would shock me. But if Daniels can't win the center spot, it wouldn't surprise me if one of them could beat him out at OG in a couple of years. That's what I meant by eventually.
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Re: Revisiting the "Bears don't value OL" discussion

Thu Jun 04, 2020 6:56 pm

I see - I still think that would be far fetched (especially with Right Guard basically open too and likely to be where one of those guys would land first)

Could be the case where Daniels doesn't get a 2nd contract here - that is plausible
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IE
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Re: Revisiting the "Bears don't value OL" discussion

Fri Jun 05, 2020 9:33 am

I thought Daniels graded quite high at G after the switch.
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dplank
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Re: Revisiting the "Bears don't value OL" discussion

Fri Jun 05, 2020 1:32 pm

PFF grades are notoriously suspect, but when all else fails it can be useful - I just wouldn't trust them completely. My issue with our OL is that we get no push, ever it seems, in the run game. Our guys just aren't beasts, the only beast we had was Kyle Long and he was finished last year. We have more technicians, which is more useful in pass protection. Our entire left side are technicians, not physically imposing figures. I suspect PFF grades for OL are more skewed toward pass protection as it's a little easier to grade, especially if you don't know the line calls like only the coaches would.

Think Cowboys hayday of the 90's....they just had monsters up front, Larry Allen could move a semi truck. Nate Newton, Tuinie, Leonard Davis....I know I'm mixing eras a bit, but they have had a successful formula up front for a long time.
Chuck Pagano's defensive rankings in 6 years with Indy: 26th, 20th, 11th, 26th, 30th, and 30th.
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Re: Revisiting the "Bears don't value OL" discussion

Sat Jun 06, 2020 3:59 pm

Strange thought, but maybe a QB change helps Daniels at C. Mitch is borderline dumb out there, he could very well have had a negative impact on Daniels presnap.
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Re: Revisiting the "Bears don't value OL" discussion

Sun Jun 07, 2020 10:30 am

dplank wrote:
Sat Jun 06, 2020 3:59 pm
Strange thought, but maybe a QB change helps Daniels at C. Mitch is borderline dumb out there, he could very well have had a negative impact on Daniels presnap.
Yeah - that's not so good as a take

Though an admirable job of trying to blame anything on Mitch - no matter what

Now blame Mitch for the Paris Peace talks breaking down despite him not being alive at the time....
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Re: Revisiting the "Bears don't value OL" discussion

Sun Jun 07, 2020 10:37 am

Yea, I’m sure if the C and QB aren’t on the same page that everything will work out just fine.

I’ll work harder to get your stamp of approval going forward, given your extensive background and all...
Chuck Pagano's defensive rankings in 6 years with Indy: 26th, 20th, 11th, 26th, 30th, and 30th.
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Re: Revisiting the "Bears don't value OL" discussion

Sun Jun 07, 2020 1:52 pm

dplank wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 10:37 am
Yea, I’m sure if the C and QB aren’t on the same page that everything will work out just fine.

I’ll work harder to get your stamp of approval going forward, given your extensive background and all...
:rofl:
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Re: Revisiting the "Bears don't value OL" discussion

Sun Jun 07, 2020 10:20 pm

dplank wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 10:37 am
Yea, I’m sure if the C and QB aren’t on the same page that everything will work out just fine.

I’ll work harder to get your stamp of approval going forward, given your extensive background and all...

Oh I didn't know the Guard didn't need to know the right Line Call. If the Guard thinks its a Run and it's really a pass - Should be fine!!!

Good to know

Certainly if you expect the Center to make the right line call and he's bad at it - THAT would matter (this wouldn't explain why Whitehair was good at Center despite DREADED MITCH!!!!!!!!!!!!! ) - but it's not really a Mitch thing

I say go full Dplank - Credit the calming influence of Chase Daniel - When noted that he only started 1 game (lost) - Just note that it has a very lasting effect

Of course - they started Daniels as a Rookie - Checks Notes - At Guard not Center for the vast vast majority of the year

So the issue appears to be Daniels and Center - Not Mitch

But again - Kudos for the Mitch bashing when not warranted (*)

(*) Mitch gives you plenty to work with without having to make up stuff
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Re: Revisiting the "Bears don't value OL" discussion

Mon Jun 08, 2020 9:37 am

Rich doubles down / digs in....shocker!

I'll spare the board 5 pages of futility and leave it here, I kinda feel like Spike being annoyed by Chester all the time...

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Re: Revisiting the "Bears don't value OL" discussion

Mon Jun 08, 2020 9:51 am

Yogi da Bear wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 9:31 pm
Put it this way, if he doesn't earn the starting center position, I don't think that we resign him after his rookie deal is up. And it wouldn't surprise me if one of our Seventh Round picks or that guy from Yale eventually beat him out at guard.

I'm really hoping he can make the move to center at some point. What's weird is the biggest critique of him playing center last year was how soft-spoken he was. But coming out it didn't seem that way. It really seemed like he had command of the line. Can't really figure it out.
You know he's graded as a top 10 guard...right?
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Re: Revisiting the "Bears don't value OL" discussion

Mon Jun 08, 2020 1:30 pm

This is meant for anyone who isn't Rich, I shouldn't have to censor posts due to FOT (Fear of Trolling). But to my point about Daniels/Trubisky....I was thinking that with Daniels being so young and new to the offense, and Mitch being a borderline moron, that it had a negative impact on Daniels play at C. And maybe he'd improve if he moved back there and Foles was playing QB as he's a cerebral player. Found this nugget from the Bucs page talking about Brady coming into town that illustrates the point.
It sets up the line with a responsibility that they don't take lightly. The relationship between center and quarterback, especially, isn't one to be taken lightly, either. Both players have to be on exactly the same page to make the offense hum along seamlessly.

"There's a lot of communication that goes on between a center and his quarterback as far as protections and MIKE points and audibles, all that kind of stuff," Jensen explained. "It's important to have that relationship and make sure you're on the same page. That way, if he needs to change something, I understand where he's going. If I say something, he knows where I'm going with it. It's big to have that relationship."
So I could see Mitch struggling here, it's well documented actually. And Daniels as a soft spoken, inexperienced guy going with Mitch struggling is a recipe for failure. When Whitehair came in, it could be that things settled down because Cody was more assertive in his role, simultaneously helping Mitch and the OL as a whole. And so all of that said, maybe Daniels IS a natural C in the pro's, but just wasn't up to the task yet and that was exasperated by our dumb QB who can't read defenses or make spot adjustments very well.
Chuck Pagano's defensive rankings in 6 years with Indy: 26th, 20th, 11th, 26th, 30th, and 30th.
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Re: Revisiting the "Bears don't value OL" discussion

Mon Jun 08, 2020 2:17 pm

It's really thin gruel though is the issue Dplank

You have a super obvious bias against Mitch (You called for Chase Daniel in 2018 ! )

The Bears also started Daniels off at Guard - and he has played better at Guard -

It's kind of Occam's Razor - Daniels is better at Guard than Center.

You make a compelling point (maybe) on How Whitehair might be a better Center than

The problem - at least for you since you want to make it Mitch's fault - is that Mitch stayed CONSTANT there (Unless you think he was magically smarter and better when it comes time to help your argument I guess)

So you have Daniels at Center - bad. Mitch at QB. (Maybe it's Mitch?!?!)

But you have Whitehard at Center - better than Daniels - Daniels play improves as well - Has Mitch changed? Or is he a constant?

You have something of a controlled (ish) experiment there.

And you want to blame the Control?


There was also that Leno started the year particularly bad as well - That probably meant others on the OL looked worse earlier in the year than later in the year (when Leno was more So-So rather than Bad)
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Re: Revisiting the "Bears don't value OL" discussion

Mon Jun 08, 2020 4:26 pm

RichH55 wrote:
Mon Jun 08, 2020 2:17 pm
It's really thin gruel though is the issue Dplank

You have a super obvious bias against Mitch (You called for Chase Daniel in 2018 ! )

The Bears also started Daniels off at Guard - and he has played better at Guard -

It's kind of Occam's Razor - Daniels is better at Guard than Center.

You make a compelling point (maybe) on How Whitehair might be a better Center than

The problem - at least for you since you want to make it Mitch's fault - is that Mitch stayed CONSTANT there (Unless you think he was magically smarter and better when it comes time to help your argument I guess)

So you have Daniels at Center - bad. Mitch at QB. (Maybe it's Mitch?!?!)

But you have Whitehard at Center - better than Daniels - Daniels play improves as well - Has Mitch changed? Or is he a constant?

You have something of a controlled (ish) experiment there.

And you want to blame the Control?


There was also that Leno started the year particularly bad as well - That probably meant others on the OL looked worse earlier in the year than later in the year (when Leno was more So-So rather than Bad)
For the sake of the board I'm trying to avoid protracted arguments with you, the post was meant for others who might think more openly about the situation and I said so clearly. I'm not even particularly hung up on where Daniels plays, I want him to play where he plays best. Last year, that was LG. But Daniels inexperience coupled with Mitch's inability to read/react well appeared to be a big problem for us and certainly impacted Daniels performance at C. His performance improvement was clear and obvious when he moved...did he get stronger or have better technique magically mid season? Was he all the sudden NOT a natural C as advertised? No. His performance at LG improved because he no longer had assignment/call responsibilities that he wasn't ready for and had little to no help from Mitch who also has well documented struggles in this area. Whitehair mitigated this problem on the whole as at least one half of the QB/C combination was able to see the defense as opposed to neither.

Daniels has likely grown as a player, and Foles CAN read/react well, both of those things would help his performance. So it's not a big leap to think Daniels might be more successful as a center this year than he was last year. And I'm only pointing this out b/c Yogi and others seem to want him to play there, I don't care a whole lot. I have a strong preference for letting people play their best, most natural position and not moving people around a whole lot so the line can gel as a unit. If that position for Daniels is LG....well, fine.

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Re: Revisiting the "Bears don't value OL" discussion

Tue Jun 09, 2020 9:29 am

Yeah - I'm not sure what you aren't getting besides that the Truth here does Not allow for a Reasonable person to put blame on Mitch (Not your MO)

If the things you are saying about Daniels are true - then they speak against him being a Center ( a position I think is harder than Guard )

If Daniels is docile and can't speak up, etc. - That's a problem with his game specifically as to Center

If Daniels can't make the line calls or can't recognize the Defenses - That's a problem with his game specifically as to Center

The Bears took him - and then moved him to Guard even in 2018 - Though he was billed as a Center coming out - They did this VERY early

Why? (Tough to blame Mitch there - though I know you will want to)


Could some of this be that it takes a while to really master Nagy's Offense (Putting aside the Mitch hate - I mean for a OL) - Maybe. I think its a very fair argument that he will have 3 years in this offense and that could help erridicate his mental mistakes or help gain confidence (Again - they would be irrelevant to who the QB is)

Though Whitehair has had no trouble making the transistion a couple of times now - Though one of those was under Fox (in less than ideal circumstances)

Again- Whitehair was more than up to the Job


If you are making the case that as long as Daniels doesn't need to be good at the mental aspects of Center then he can be good at Center-

DONT PLAY HIM AT CENTER THEN
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Re: Revisiting the "Bears don't value OL" discussion

Fri Jun 12, 2020 2:26 pm

wab wrote:
Mon Jun 08, 2020 9:51 am
Yogi da Bear wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 9:31 pm
Put it this way, if he doesn't earn the starting center position, I don't think that we resign him after his rookie deal is up. And it wouldn't surprise me if one of our Seventh Round picks or that guy from Yale eventually beat him out at guard.

I'm really hoping he can make the move to center at some point. What's weird is the biggest critique of him playing center last year was how soft-spoken he was. But coming out it didn't seem that way. It really seemed like he had command of the line. Can't really figure it out.
You know he's graded as a top 10 guard...right?
By whom? PFFtttth?

I say that because I was just so overwhelmed by the holes he opened up for us. Just ask David Montgomery.

If you didn't notice. I'm not a big fan of PFF.
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Re: Revisiting the "Bears don't value OL" discussion

Sat Jun 13, 2020 8:25 am

Daniels would've been a great Miami dolphins O Lineman in the Dan Marino years.
Great at leverage pass blocking
Run blocking is kinda meh, unless he can turn the defender.
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