Kyle Long posts "Be You" on Twitter

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RichH55
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Re: Kyle Long posts "Be You" on Twitter

Wed Jun 17, 2020 4:18 pm

Yogi da Bear wrote:
Wed Jun 17, 2020 2:28 pm
Personally, I think this is all a load of crap. You can't "fire" a player from football. If the Bears didn't want him, they'd simply cut him and Kyle would be able to move to whatever team he wished. The Bears couldn't "stop" him from pursuing other offers. Also, the decision NOT to play Kyle wouldn't have been the GM's or Nagy's. That decision would rest with the medical staff and the OL coach I would think. So Kyle's animus against Nagy, if that's what this is, is wholly unwarranted.

I think this is more of a player who had beat down with injuries the last few years and decided to retire. And now with football season approaching, he finds that he's missing the game. A team can NOT fire a player and exclude him from football altogether.

As to scheme fit and the problems with Heistandt, I think that stems from the fact that Heistandt was more of a power football OL coach. Look at Quenton Nelson. I believe and said it back before the season, that Heistandt was trying to incorporate elements of BOTH a power scheme and a zone scheme and the whole thing became bogged down in its complexity. I think that Castillo is more strictly a zone guy and that he'll simply the scheme to make it easier on the linemen so they don't have to think so much.

Pretty sure Nelson is OL Scheme Agnostic
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Re: Kyle Long posts "Be You" on Twitter

Wed Jun 17, 2020 10:37 pm

Yogi da Bear wrote:
Wed Jun 17, 2020 2:28 pm
Personally, I think this is all a load of crap. You can't "fire" a player from football. If the Bears didn't want him, they'd simply cut him and Kyle would be able to move to whatever team he wished. The Bears couldn't "stop" him from pursuing other offers. Also, the decision NOT to play Kyle wouldn't have been the GM's or Nagy's. That decision would rest with the medical staff and the OL coach I would think. So Kyle's animus against Nagy, if that's what this is, is wholly unwarranted.

I think this is more of a player who had beat down with injuries the last few years and decided to retire. And now with football season approaching, he finds that he's missing the game. A team can NOT fire a player and exclude him from football altogether.

As to scheme fit and the problems with Heistandt, I think that stems from the fact that Heistandt was more of a power football OL coach. Look at Quenton Nelson. I believe and said it back before the season, that Heistandt was trying to incorporate elements of BOTH a power scheme and a zone scheme and the whole thing became bogged down in its complexity. I think that Castillo is more strictly a zone guy and that he'll simply the scheme to make it easier on the linemen so they don't have to think so much.
If they cut him, don’t they fire him? Sure he can go work somewhere else, but he was fired. If an accounting firm lets a CPA go, the fact he can go work at another firm does mean he wasn’t fired.
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Re: Kyle Long posts "Be You" on Twitter

Wed Jun 17, 2020 11:18 pm

Thanks DP and G08. I need the blocking schemes for Dummies.
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Re: Kyle Long posts "Be You" on Twitter

Thu Jun 18, 2020 7:40 am

RichH55 wrote: I wish you'd stop
I think the entire board would join me with a simple....."Likewise"

I'll ask you one more time to please stop chasing me around thread after thread, making snide remarks and bringing up years old posts. I could use the ignore feature, but it's pretty lame and your behavior is simply abhorrent Rich. Grow up man, let's please not ruin this board like the old one! The mods aren't going to put up with it and I have zero interest playing any part in it - I like it here!
Chuck Pagano's defensive rankings in 6 years with Indy: 26th, 20th, 11th, 26th, 30th, and 30th.
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Re: Kyle Long posts "Be You" on Twitter

Thu Jun 18, 2020 9:53 am

dplank wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 7:40 am
RichH55 wrote: I wish you'd stop
I think the entire board would join me with a simple....."Likewise"

I'll ask you one more time to please stop chasing me around thread after thread, making snide remarks and bringing up years old posts. I could use the ignore feature, but it's pretty lame and your behavior is simply abhorrent Rich. Grow up man, let's please not ruin this board like the old one! The mods aren't going to put up with it and I have zero interest playing any part in it - I like it here!

I think you posting again about why 20-30 years ago is pertinent was still this thread, no?

I think it does not bring much as a point to the table. It's a poor evaluation tool - especially as it goes across SEVERAL different regimes and decision makers.

It's not even a sins of the father being put upon the son - it's the sins of the father being put upon some guy who just moved into the same town yesterday.

Makes little sense. I will not bring it up on my own - but if you post it I will probably comment on the new post saying that. Somehow you will view that as my fault for commenting on the poor new post rather than taking some ownership of posting the iffy thought yet again

But fair enough overall
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Re: Kyle Long posts "Be You" on Twitter

Thu Jun 18, 2020 10:50 am

Arkansasbear wrote:
Wed Jun 17, 2020 10:37 pm
If they cut him, don’t they fire him? Sure he can go work somewhere else, but he was fired. If an accounting firm lets a CPA go, the fact he can go work at another firm does mean he wasn’t fired.
With Kyle Long now not playing football, his comment that the Bears "fired him" implies that they fired him from football, that that's the reason he's not playing now. You can most certainly fire a player from your team, but that team cannot fire a player from football. Kyle isn't playing now because he chose to retire, not because the Bears "fired him." That's why I think this whole take is a bunch of crap.
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dplank
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Re: Kyle Long posts "Be You" on Twitter

Thu Jun 18, 2020 11:38 am

Yea, it's nuanced. I think he's just pissed off now looking back at it all that they essentially dumped him at halftime of a game. He seems very focused on the 'halftime' part of it, even though he admits he really sucked due to injury. But IIRC, he re-did his deal to stay in Chicago, and at that time I remember him saying something like "I know they'll do right by me", something like that. And then, he gets hurt again, gets benched, and then is cut. I think as he's had time to think on all of that, he's butt hurt about it. I can see both sides. Kyle's a great guy so I don't hold it against him, but I think the Bears did what was best for the franchise as well.

His "Be You" post though, a direct dig on Nagy - and kind of a low blow IMO.
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Re: Kyle Long posts "Be You" on Twitter

Thu Jun 18, 2020 12:02 pm

RichH55 wrote:
Wed Jun 17, 2020 4:18 pm
Pretty sure Nelson is OL Scheme Agnostic
Absolutely Nelson can play in any scheme (that's why I wanted him so much in the draft when you said guards shouldn't go in the top 10), but Agnostic? Doubt it. I'm pretty sure that Nelson really BELIEVES IN a power run game with pulling and pancake blocks rather than simply drop steps and seal blocks. Putting Nelson in a zone scheme is like putting Aaron Rodgers in a power I. Yeah, he could do it, and does do it some, but it's not the most effective use of him generally:

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Re: Kyle Long posts "Be You" on Twitter

Thu Jun 18, 2020 12:08 pm

Yogi da Bear wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 10:50 am
Arkansasbear wrote:
Wed Jun 17, 2020 10:37 pm
If they cut him, don’t they fire him? Sure he can go work somewhere else, but he was fired. If an accounting firm lets a CPA go, the fact he can go work at another firm does mean he wasn’t fired.
With Kyle Long now not playing football, his comment that the Bears "fired him" implies that they fired him from football, that that's the reason he's not playing now. You can most certainly fire a player from your team, but that team cannot fire a player from football. Kyle isn't playing now because he chose to retire, not because the Bears "fired him." That's why I think this whole take is a bunch of crap.
Gotcha. I guess I read it as he was clarifying he got cut then decided to retire rather than play somewhere else.

:flick:

Nothing personal about the emoji I just saw it and it made me laugh so I wanted to post it. :D :D
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Re: Kyle Long posts "Be You" on Twitter

Thu Jun 18, 2020 2:07 pm

It is strange to tell a guy at halftime that he's done for the year. Then let him finish the game.
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RichH55
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Re: Kyle Long posts "Be You" on Twitter

Thu Jun 18, 2020 3:47 pm

Yogi da Bear wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 12:02 pm
RichH55 wrote:
Wed Jun 17, 2020 4:18 pm
Pretty sure Nelson is OL Scheme Agnostic
Absolutely Nelson can play in any scheme (that's why I wanted him so much in the draft when you said guards shouldn't go in the top 10), but Agnostic? Doubt it. I'm pretty sure that Nelson really BELIEVES IN a power run game with pulling and pancake blocks rather than simply drop steps and seal blocks. Putting Nelson in a zone scheme is like putting Aaron Rodgers in a power I. Yeah, he could do it, and does do it some, but it's not the most effective use of him generally:


Yeah - scheme agnostic simply means he can play in any scheme

So not sure of the purpose of the rest of your post

They actually use him to double guys quite a bit already (part of their pass blocking seems to be having Nelson and the LT work together fairly often in the Colts games I watched)
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Yogi da Bear
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Re: Kyle Long posts "Be You" on Twitter

Thu Jun 18, 2020 8:10 pm

I don't think you know what agnostic means. It literally means somebody who doesn't either believe or disbelieve in the existence of God, somebody who doesn't really care. I think that Nelson cares, and I believe he would prefer to block in a power scheme. That's what he's best at. Simply sealing steals his intimidation factor from him.

If you're going to use words to define a concept, you should probably know what those words mean individually first.
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Re: Kyle Long posts "Be You" on Twitter

Thu Jun 18, 2020 8:40 pm

It doesn't refer to the players preference in the least - Nor does it relate to his actual religious beliefs

It literally means that certain players can excel in various systems and schemes - where as others are more scheme dependent. If they put that on the Players Write Up for Draft - it, again, will not mean what the Player likes most

(Nor does playing in a Zone scheme mean an OL will not have the temperment to bury/punish a Defender - If you execute your Combo block and get to the 2nd level - Zone Blocking Teams still LOVE to see you absolutely Punk the LB too)

For that reason - it's bad to use Nelson as an example of things (much like Kyle Long in his Prime) as he'd be a Pro Bowler in essentially any NFL Blocking scheme

If you want to talk about Power Scheme guys - you can think of a Larry Warford type, etc. Where if you put them in a different scheme they very well would flat out struggle

I'm sorry this is your first year out of the Clergy and following the NFL - Should be a fun ride though! Welcome to the NFL and the Chicago Bears
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Re: Kyle Long posts "Be You" on Twitter

Thu Jun 18, 2020 11:15 pm

Oh God, or not god, here we go again.
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Re: Kyle Long posts "Be You" on Twitter

Thu Jun 18, 2020 11:45 pm

Show me one reference where it was used that way Rich, because whomever used it that way doesn't know what the fuck "agnostic" means, and I want to know who else is as big a dumb shit as you. lol Perhaps you might want to try, "scheme diverse" or "scheme independent" instead, as though don't conjure up images of belief or the lack thereof.

Oh, and why don't you tell me how great Aaron Rodgers would be in the Wishbone? He could undoubtedly play in one, but it wouldn't be the most effective use of his skills.
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Re: Kyle Long posts "Be You" on Twitter

Fri Jun 19, 2020 7:58 am

I'll bother both you guys...I refuse to crown Nelson's ass. I hate it when one great play starts a talking heads narrative around a player that sticks forever, and I feel like that happened with Nelson. He did some crazy screaming block thing and pancaked a guy, and everyone loved it, and he was immediately the best G ever. Maybe if I watched a lot of Colts games I'd realize that he's as good as they hype, but I hates me some herd mentality. So with no justification whatsoever, I'm holding out a little longer on Nelson.

I thought Kyle Long only had one or two good years, but was talked about as one of the best in the game his whole career.
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Re: Kyle Long posts "Be You" on Twitter

Fri Jun 19, 2020 1:09 pm

Go ahead and be dumb Yogi - Stay on brand - Yes that is how Scheme Agnostic is used v. a guy who needs a very specific system to excel

Have the last word on that if you really want to memorialize your own foolishness though
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Re: Kyle Long posts "Be You" on Twitter

Fri Jun 19, 2020 1:31 pm

Dplank - Scouting Nelson ( OR ANYONE) via Highlight Tapes is Foolish (Maybe OL the most of ANY position as it's a consistency based business)


That said - and the whole Miced up edited Pancake smash was fun to watch (doesn't really mean all that much in the grand scheme ) - BUT I subjected myself to Many Colts games last year (The perils of the internet and somehow, someway people taking the Side that Jacoby Brissett was a good idea to sign that terrible contract) - And I focused a good amount on Nelson too (I would have ABSOLUTELY blasted him if he were overrated or only solid- He's Really really good for a Guard though)

BUT Nelson is as advertised. He's excellent. I don't even think they utilize him perfectly either. I think the absolute comp on him is Marshall Yanda.
1)Nelson rarely loses one on one - and often does better than mere stalemate - both in Pass Pro and in the Run Game (usually you have to trick him to beat him and that is not too often - Did see a Zone Blitz concept work against him but the Giants had to literally drop a NT/DT type into coverage to make it work)
2). He is actually quick for a supposed Power Guy (He really is Scheme Agnostic (Can play in multiple types of Blocking Scheme - Not a statement on his Belief in God - Ugh) - though I do think you can "Tweak" your body as an OL depending on System. (*)

(*) If the Colts were more Zone based (and they have some elements of it) I think Nelson could shed 5-10 Pounds and not sacrifice much power. Frankly I think this would benefit him generally and turn his getting to the second level and pulls even better (He's already Good to Very Good in this Area mind you) - Sometimes hes just a hair slow to really get something pretty - Classify this as a QUIBBLE not some big negative mind you

The Colts do somethings with OL that are - interesting

They will use a lot of Jumbo packages (not sure what they call it) with an extra 1-2 OL on the field). I am told that Reich brought that over with him from his time with the Eagles They will both pass or run out of these formations

They really used Nelson a lot in double team blocking - especially helping out the LT on Passing plays (**) (***)

(**) I am not smart enough to know if this was by design or if teams were trying to overload the other side more so since the Left Side of Nelson and Castanzo is rather formidable - BUT I did see in those plays (Which again - happened quite often) a decent amount of the Center left one on one

(***) These ALWAYS felt like a waste of resources to me - Though they ABSOLUTELY reinforce my thinking that Guards can be found - if you are going to use your All-Pro LG this way ok - You are going to stop that one pass rusher basically every play - but you are taking two lineman to do it. I think most average Guards would be have basically as successful in those snaps
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Re: Kyle Long posts "Be You" on Twitter

Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:26 pm

RichH55 wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 1:09 pm
Go ahead and be dumb Yogi - Stay on brand - Yes that is how Scheme Agnostic is used v. a guy who needs a very specific system to excel

Have the last word on that if you really want to memorialize your own foolishness though
So you can't find any other specific example of anybody using that term that way. Not one. Gotcha. Since you can't find an example from somebody else, I guess you've just proven that nobody as big a dumb shit as you are. You know Rich, when you decided to make up phrases, you should really get the definition of every single word correct but you start throwing that shit out there.

As to Nelson DP, I've seen him a lot as well, and always with envy. Sure wish the Bears had a shot at him in the draft. They absolutely would have taken him, and you wouldn't now be lamenting how little resources we devote to the OL. He is absolutely the real deal, already one of the best of offensive linemen I've ever seen.

Since highlights don't show a player's failures and thus his weaknesses, I absolutely agree with Rich that you can't "scout" a player using them. I disagree though that they are of no worth. They show how good a player can be. What's amazing about Nelson's highlight clips is that as a rookie, his clip is over nine minutes long, and his second year tape is nearly 13 minutes! The simple length of them is telling. How many other single season highlights of one player have you seen that are that long, particularly for an offensive lineman? They show that he's much more than simply one screaming pancake block. ;)

But what's really impactful with him is not only his play but his attitude. He's changed the whole mentality of that offensive line. Here's a good clip on him on that:



Man, I sure wish he was a Bear.
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Re: Kyle Long posts "Be You" on Twitter

Fri Jun 19, 2020 7:23 pm

Scouting by Highlights will get you Pool Jumpers

9 MINUTES OF FILM!!!!!!!

You get we are scouting the NFL not the Kennedy Assassination right?

In fairness the Keg Stand Celebration was good - Weird way to Scout - But BE YOU!
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Re: Kyle Long posts "Be You" on Twitter

Fri Jun 19, 2020 8:33 pm

Yogi da Bear wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:26 pm
RichH55 wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 1:09 pm
Go ahead and be dumb Yogi - Stay on brand - Yes that is how Scheme Agnostic is used v. a guy who needs a very specific system to excel

Have the last word on that if you really want to memorialize your own foolishness though
So you can't find any other specific example of anybody using that term that way. Not one. Gotcha. Since you can't find an example from somebody else, I guess you've just proven that nobody as big a dumb shit as you are. You know Rich, when you decided to make up phrases, you should really get the definition of every single word correct but you start throwing that shit out there.

Of course it's all over the place - Frankly I am not smart enough to invent a term like that.

Forbes- https://www.forbes.com/sites/chrismanni ... e54ca53faa
"He doesn’t come in familiar with the zone blocking scheme Cleveland is expected to run under new head coach Kevin Stefanski, but he’s consider scheme agnostic because of his athleticism and his football IQ. The NFL’s abnormal offseason schedule is likely the biggest obstacle to him picking up the offense."


Sports Illustrated- https://www.si.com/nfl/2018/03/20/coach ... r-pressure
According to Dan Hatman, a former NFL scout who now runs The Scouting Academy,
"The upheaval challenges those who grade players and are supposed to be, as Hatman calls it, “scheme agnostic.”


http://insidethepylon.com/pylon-u/teams ... gold-mine/
"But the NFL rushing pendulum seems ripe to swing back towards the side of scheme agnosticism or at least openness."

PFF
https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-10-players ... in-the-nfl
"Just as it is with the PFF50, remember this is a list created with a “position agnostic” approach."

https://thetouchdown.co.uk/alex-chinery-mock-draft-1-0/
"Okudah is a scheme agnostic talent who is developed in all areas of cornerback play and possesses every piece of skill needed to succeed in the NFL."


https://www.bleedinggreennation.com/202 ... -backfield
"At that value, you’re less concerned with the tread (778 career touches) and knee (which recently checked out well, per report) and more excited about the steady production the scheme-agnostic bruiser can bring."

https://chicago.cbslocal.com/2013/04/24 ... aft-3-0-2/
Dan Durkin
Indianapolis Colts: Datone Jones DE (UCLA) – The Colts added Ricky Jean-Francois, but need more talent and an eventual replacement for Cory Redding. Jones is scheme agnostic, but his best position could be a five-technique in a 3-4.

The Ringer
https://www.theringer.com/nfl/2020/1/7/ ... cam-newton
Rhule was willing to air the ball out and run a college-style spread offense in the Big 12, where the spread is the base form of the sport, but ultimately seems to be a schematic agnostic who prefers a physical approach.
"


I mean in fairness - I assume you think Google is probably partisan

But you will admit you are wrong?

Ha - I'm just kidding - Go ahead and Triple Down
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Yogi da Bear
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Re: Kyle Long posts "Be You" on Twitter

Sat Jun 20, 2020 1:21 pm

Hey, you actually did some research for once Rich. :clap: I can see there are a lot of dumbasses like you that don't know the meaning of the word "agnostic."
agnostic
[aɡˈnästik]
NOUN
agnostic (noun) · agnostics (plural noun)
a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena; a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God.
synonyms:
skeptic · doubter · questioner · doubting Thomas · challenger · scoffer · cynic · unbeliever · disbeliever · nonbeliever · rationalist · nullifidian
antonyms:
believer · theist
ADJECTIVE
agnostic (adjective)
relating to agnostics or agnosticism.
synonyms:
skeptical · doubting · questioning · unsure · cynical · unbelieving · disbelieving · nonbelieving · faithless · irreligious · rationalist · nullifidian
antonyms:
theist
(in a nonreligious context) having a doubtful or noncommittal attitude towards something.
"until now I've been fairly agnostic about electoral reform"
computing
denoting or relating to hardware or software that is compatible with many types of platforms or operating systems.
"many common file formats (JPEG, MP3, etc.) are platform-agnostic"


Here's a picture of that first guy you quoted:

Image

Is that you Rich? lol

If anything a "scheme agnostic" player would not be a player who played in all schemes, but one who played in "no" particular scheme, who was skeptical of all of them. Obviously, not only are you not smart enough to invent the term, you're not smart enough to understand it. But since many of those sources actually use the term correctly, I'll try to explain it to you.

Sports Illustrated: He's talking about the importance of area scouts grading players being "scheme agnostic." They're supposed to discard any notion of a scheme when making their evaluations and simply evaluate the prospect as a football player and let the GMs and scouting directors determine if they fit their particular scheme. Used absolutely correctly.

Inside the Pylon: He's talking about the Oklahoma coach not tying himself to any particular scheme. He's not an Alex Gibbs type coach who runs a particular scheme and favors execution of a small number of plays. Riley doesn't believe in any particular scheme and thus uses them all. Again, used correctly.

PFF: Is talking about using a "position agnostic" approach in evaluating players. They aren't putting any added value to any particular position (even though they admit QB is four times more valuable than any other position). In essence they are valuing each position without believing one position's worth over another. Again, used correctly.

The Ringer: Is talking about Coach Rhule coming to Carolina. Again, saying he doesn't believe in any particular scheme, but he favors a physical approach. Also used correctly.

The Touchdown: Talking about a scheme agnostic "talent" in Okubah. I would have been okay if you said that about Nelson. Talent doesn't have belief.

But you said Quenton Nelson is scheme agnostic. Not true. It's like the Pope walking into a mosque. He might walk in. He might even kneel in prayer. But he's still going to be faithful to his Catholic belief. Nelson might have "scheme agnostic talent," but I will guarantee you that his "belief" lies in a power game. You can see it in his play. His talent might be scheme agnostic, but he himself is not. On the field, he worships these:

Image

He worships them so much, he even tries to get one with his zone "seal" blocks.

Hope you understand, but I'm not crossing my fingers because I don't expect you will or admit it if you do.
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Re: Kyle Long posts "Be You" on Twitter

Sat Jun 20, 2020 8:55 pm

Kids

Never go Full Yogi
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Re: Kyle Long posts "Be You" on Twitter

Sun Jun 21, 2020 5:57 pm

I would like an order of pancakes though.
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Re: Kyle Long posts "Be You" on Twitter

Mon Jun 22, 2020 8:08 am

I don't know why this thread has gotten where it has, but it has outlived its usefulness.
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