Offensive Line

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wab
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Offensive Line

Wed Sep 16, 2020 2:32 pm

With all the Allen Robinson contract talk, it kind of occured to me, that the Bears are kind of in a pickle with the OL and one may have an impact on the other.

The Bears OL looked like a new unit on Sunday (yes, it's one game, but they were remarkably better than they were in game 1 last season). If they continue to improve, it might be hard to keep them together, especially if the Bears bring back A-Rob.

Right now, the Bears have 4 pending FA's in Ifedi, Bars, Coward, and Spriggs - although Bars is an ERFA. That's a starting player and all 4 backups.

Ifedi is surely going to look for a long term deal, especially if he plays well. Factor in that if Robinson is to be resigned, one or both of the OT's might have to be cut for monetary reasons.

It could be a real problem.
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Re: Offensive Line

Wed Sep 16, 2020 2:50 pm

I'm not worried about the backups.

But this is why I was really unhappy they ignored interior line in the draft.
Even if the "Ifedi to G" plan were to work, you still run a big risk that someone else outbids you afterwards...and then what?
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Re: Offensive Line

Wed Sep 16, 2020 3:05 pm

Bars, Coward and Spriggs are pretty much chump change. I thought that Bars may had had a chance to start this season but it still looks like he's in development. If Ifedi is the real deal then they'll have to pay him to keep him, though I doubt he'll command an upper echelon contract. Daniels is due a big contract, if he continues to improve, in 2022 so hopefully the Bears can reap some of his relatively inexpensive play.

It's the OT's that are the big question mark. Does Ifedi help rejuvenate Massie? Is Massie about out of gas regardless? He's 31 so maybe a few good years left. Maybe. Leno is still Leno. He doesn't pass my eye test as an above average LT yet he gets paid as one and he gets good grades from the folks who grade OL play. So what do I know?

I do know there was a clamor at the end of last season to somehow replace Leno and Massie but their contracts did not make that feasible. Or maybe that was dPlank hollering. :o
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wab
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Re: Offensive Line

Wed Sep 16, 2020 3:19 pm

I do know there was a clamor at the end of last season to somehow replace Leno and Massie but their contracts did not make that feasible. Or maybe that was dPlank hollering. :o
Next season offloading them is easier as there is minimal dead money. Massie is the most likely to be replaced. Leno probably has one more year.
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Re: Offensive Line

Wed Sep 16, 2020 4:12 pm

wab wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 3:19 pm
I do know there was a clamor at the end of last season to somehow replace Leno and Massie but their contracts did not make that feasible. Or maybe that was dPlank hollering. :o
Next season offloading them is easier as there is minimal dead money. Massie is the most likely to be replaced. Leno probably has one more year.
I think the dead money thing is overrated honestly. Leno for instance, his dead money only goes down about 2m each year, but whether that money hits all at once in 2020 or spread over multiple years its a sunk cap cost and it's timing generally isn't terribly consequential.

Meanwhile, in 2020 and 2021 he has base salaries of 7.9m and 8.9m. Those aren't sunk costs. You really have to figure out the value of the additional games played of course, but that's your cap savings right there.

It's a pretty classic penny wise, dollar foolish example, IMO. Importantly you have to remember to think about the cap as a multi year figure that can roll forward.
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Re: Offensive Line

Wed Sep 16, 2020 5:57 pm

It's a concern, but I think they are developing Hambright and Simmons as well. We also have options in the draft as, if the line continues to play well this season, I'm good with letting Castillo identify some day 3 picks to bring into the building.
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First 43 starts:

Drew Brees: 61.1% | 8760 yards | 57 TDs | 40 INTs | 6.65 YPA | 82.5

Mitch Trubisky: 63.2% | 8986 yards | 53 TDs | 31 INTs | 6.7 YPA | 86.1
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Re: Offensive Line

Wed Sep 16, 2020 6:39 pm

G08 wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 5:57 pm
It's a concern, but I think they are developing Hambright and Simmons as well. We also have options in the draft as, if the line continues to play well this season, I'm good with letting Castillo identify some day 3 picks to bring into the building.
Counting on developing late round picks is fraught with peril and typically doesn't pan out. We need to draft talent on the OL, there's a reason why guys like Whitehair and Daniels are our best OL, Pace actually spent 2nd round draft capital on them both! Of course they are developing Hambright and Simmons, that's why they are still on the team! But counting on that is fools gold, you need a better plan.

Now that the lost draft capital from the Mack deal is behind us we finally have a full quiver of picks in the top 100 going forward - we need to prioritize T with one of those picks this year, preferably a 1st as T is one of those positions that typically need to be drafted high to get a good one. Leno is the exception, not the rule, as a 7th rounder that turned into a solid NFL starter.

But for now, I'm still basking in the sun of competent OL play on Sunday. We rarely saw that last year, it was great to see and I'm starting to have a little hope that Castillo is the answer for us! Sometimes just simplifying things and letting your guys play is all you need!
Chuck Pagano's defensive rankings in 6 years with Indy: 26th, 20th, 11th, 26th, 30th, and 30th.
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wab
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Re: Offensive Line

Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:17 pm

dplank wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 6:39 pm
G08 wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 5:57 pm
It's a concern, but I think they are developing Hambright and Simmons as well. We also have options in the draft as, if the line continues to play well this season, I'm good with letting Castillo identify some day 3 picks to bring into the building.
Counting on developing late round picks is fraught with peril and typically doesn't pan out. We need to draft talent on the OL, there's a reason why guys like Whitehair and Daniels are our best OL, Pace actually spent 2nd round draft capital on them both! Of course they are developing Hambright and Simmons, that's why they are still on the team! But counting on that is fools gold, you need a better plan.

Now that the lost draft capital from the Mack deal is behind us we finally have a full quiver of picks in the top 100 going forward - we need to prioritize T with one of those picks this year, preferably a 1st as T is one of those positions that typically need to be drafted high to get a good one. Leno is the exception, not the rule, as a 7th rounder that turned into a solid NFL starter.

But for now, I'm still basking in the sun of competent OL play on Sunday. We rarely saw that last year, it was great to see and I'm starting to have a little hope that Castillo is the answer for us! Sometimes just simplifying things and letting your guys play is all you need!
I don't think the Bears can count on late round and undrafted guys. One, maybe two could pan out, but they are going to have to invest picks. Massie and Leno are going to get expensive after this season, and there's not much in the pipeline.

But yes, I'm happy that the OL played well. The Detroit DL isn't terrible . Mitch had time and there were running lanes. That was nice to see.
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G08
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Re: Offensive Line

Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:42 pm

dplank wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 6:39 pm
G08 wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 5:57 pm
It's a concern, but I think they are developing Hambright and Simmons as well. We also have options in the draft as, if the line continues to play well this season, I'm good with letting Castillo identify some day 3 picks to bring into the building.
Counting on developing late round picks is fraught with peril and typically doesn't pan out. We need to draft talent on the OL, there's a reason why guys like Whitehair and Daniels are our best OL, Pace actually spent 2nd round draft capital on them both! Of course they are developing Hambright and Simmons, that's why they are still on the team! But counting on that is fools gold, you need a better plan.

Now that the lost draft capital from the Mack deal is behind us we finally have a full quiver of picks in the top 100 going forward - we need to prioritize T with one of those picks this year, preferably a 1st as T is one of those positions that typically need to be drafted high to get a good one. Leno is the exception, not the rule, as a 7th rounder that turned into a solid NFL starter.

But for now, I'm still basking in the sun of competent OL play on Sunday. We rarely saw that last year, it was great to see and I'm starting to have a little hope that Castillo is the answer for us! Sometimes just simplifying things and letting your guys play is all you need!
My point is options will be there, Castillo has a track record of developing late-round and undrafted offensive linemen.
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First 43 starts:

Drew Brees: 61.1% | 8760 yards | 57 TDs | 40 INTs | 6.65 YPA | 82.5

Mitch Trubisky: 63.2% | 8986 yards | 53 TDs | 31 INTs | 6.7 YPA | 86.1
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Re: Offensive Line

Thu Sep 17, 2020 6:58 am

With all of the news of the cap dropping next year it will not be hard to replace people as there will be an above average amount of free agents. Most teams already either have cap commitments over $175M or have a ton of pending free agents like the Bears. You are going to see a lot of veteran minimum free agent deals as there is not much cap room to sign big money contracts.
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Re: Offensive Line

Thu Sep 17, 2020 7:27 am

A new position coach in Castillo, a vet like Ifedi (plugging a hole in a leaky boat is always good), and also having some nice competent TEs in line ... those things can add up to make quite a difference.
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Re: Offensive Line

Thu Sep 17, 2020 8:57 am

IE wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 7:27 am
A new position coach in Castillo, a vet like Ifedi (plugging a hole in a leaky boat is always good), and also having some nice competent TEs in line ... those things can add up to make quite a difference.
Yep - and some of those vets weren't as bad as they looked last year
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Re: Offensive Line

Thu Sep 17, 2020 3:29 pm

https://sportsmockery.com/2020/09/james ... -his-fill/

This has some good film break down of Daniels.
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Re: Offensive Line

Thu Sep 17, 2020 3:43 pm

Week 1/2 leaves a whole lot of football time to change a lot and answer a lot.

Between now and then A back up OL could come in and blow us away answering a question ..the new RG could see a drop off in production after week 3 when tape is out leaving more.

I’m impressed but too early to call anyone cut or crown anyone etc
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Re: Offensive Line

Thu Sep 17, 2020 7:35 pm

Arkansasbear wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 3:29 pm
https://sportsmockery.com/2020/09/james ... -his-fill/

This has some good film break down of Daniels.
Dude, thanks for sharing!
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First 43 starts:

Drew Brees: 61.1% | 8760 yards | 57 TDs | 40 INTs | 6.65 YPA | 82.5

Mitch Trubisky: 63.2% | 8986 yards | 53 TDs | 31 INTs | 6.7 YPA | 86.1
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Re: Offensive Line

Fri Sep 18, 2020 6:04 pm

RichH55 wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 8:57 am
IE wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 7:27 am
A new position coach in Castillo, a vet like Ifedi (plugging a hole in a leaky boat is always good), and also having some nice competent TEs in line ... those things can add up to make quite a difference.
Yep - and some of those vets weren't as bad as they looked last year
Right, both Massie and Leno had bad years even by their own standards. Cautiously optimistic here.
Chuck Pagano's defensive rankings in 6 years with Indy: 26th, 20th, 11th, 26th, 30th, and 30th.
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HisRoyalSweetness
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Re: Offensive Line

Fri Sep 18, 2020 8:19 pm

Just watched 'The Tape Never Lies' breakdown (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-eoX82M6k6s) and there's a lot of good stuff from Ifedi. If he keeps playing like that Pace will regret not signing him to a longer contract at a reasonable price. All three interior lineman looked really good.

The tackles on the other hand were somewhat less impressive, although Massie was solid enough. I'm sorry to have to report that @wab's favourite Bear (we all know how much you love him ;) ) was very much the weak link in Detroit.

If Trubisky succeeds in turning things around this year then that first round pick almost has to be used on an OT.
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Re: Offensive Line

Sat Sep 19, 2020 7:54 am

Quite a few starter talent o lineman will be cut this offseason if the cap drops as much as expected, so the talent pool will be there in FA to fill holes.
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dplank
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Re: Offensive Line

Sat Sep 19, 2020 9:41 am

southdakbearfan wrote:
Sat Sep 19, 2020 7:54 am
Quite a few starter talent o lineman will be cut this offseason if the cap drops as much as expected, so the talent pool will be there in FA to fill holes.
We won’t have any cap room for this though, we must draft a T high IMO.
Chuck Pagano's defensive rankings in 6 years with Indy: 26th, 20th, 11th, 26th, 30th, and 30th.
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Re: Offensive Line

Sat Sep 19, 2020 10:27 am

dplank wrote:
Sat Sep 19, 2020 9:41 am
southdakbearfan wrote:
Sat Sep 19, 2020 7:54 am
Quite a few starter talent o lineman will be cut this offseason if the cap drops as much as expected, so the talent pool will be there in FA to fill holes.
We won’t have any cap room for this though, we must draft a T high IMO.
Probably true on Tackle - The sturm and drang about not being able to replace Ifedi seems misplaced to me. Guards basically grow on trees.

One thing to look for (and I did not look for it) : Potential former OL that Castillo coached elsewhere in the league. Most teams will be in Cap crisis and those guys might very well be looking for a 1 year deal to wait out the bad Cap - And playing in a known system for a known coach will be appealing
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Re: Offensive Line

Sat Sep 19, 2020 2:56 pm

draft a T high? you mean like in the 6th instead of the 7th?
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Re: Offensive Line

Sat Sep 19, 2020 8:56 pm

RustyTrubisky wrote:
Sat Sep 19, 2020 2:56 pm
draft a T high? you mean like in the 6th instead of the 7th?
Boom
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HisRoyalSweetness
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Re: Offensive Line

Sat Sep 19, 2020 9:00 pm

PFF grades for what they're worth:

Leno: 63.4
Daniels: 55.6
Whitehair: 64.0
Ifedi: 61.6
Massie: 75.7

I must admit I'm surprised they're so low, especially Daniels. Then again PFF's grades are often a mystery.
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Re: Offensive Line

Sun Sep 20, 2020 8:59 am

HisRoyalSweetness wrote:
Sat Sep 19, 2020 9:00 pm
PFF grades for what they're worth:

Leno: 63.4
Daniels: 55.6
Whitehair: 64.0
Ifedi: 61.6
Massie: 75.7

I must admit I'm surprised they're so low, especially Daniels. Then again PFF's grades are often a mystery.
I don’t value it much. IMO the line should be primarily graded as a unit. Coaches / GMs need individual grades but for a different purpose. As fans, we should just focus on the entire unit performance and what I saw was quite good! We were near the top of the league in yards per rushing attempt and Mitch had more time than normal when dropping back.

The worst thing someone can do is take PFF grades and try to add them up for a unit grade, that’s not how OL works.
Chuck Pagano's defensive rankings in 6 years with Indy: 26th, 20th, 11th, 26th, 30th, and 30th.
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Re: Offensive Line

Mon Sep 21, 2020 11:57 am

RichH55 wrote:
Sat Sep 19, 2020 8:56 pm
RustyTrubisky wrote:
Sat Sep 19, 2020 2:56 pm
draft a T high? you mean like in the 6th instead of the 7th?
Boom
I think there is an excellent chance we go OT in the first. Depending on whose on the board. But given that 31 names will be called already, there might not be an OT in Pace’s “bundle” of players, in which case we may go ILB to find Danny’s replacement.
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wab
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Re: Offensive Line

Mon Sep 21, 2020 12:40 pm

The Bears need an OT. Jalen Mayfield was a dude I was keeping an eye on. But with him opting back into school, I honestly don't know what that means for him. He could still declare again I suppose.

Cole Van Lanen is another dude.
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Re: Offensive Line

Tue Sep 22, 2020 4:00 pm

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Re: Offensive Line

Tue Sep 22, 2020 4:19 pm

If he carries this one no way we bring him back at RG. Teams will pay good money for that type of play.
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Re: Offensive Line

Wed Sep 23, 2020 6:43 am

I think there were two sides coming into this season in regards to the oline.

A. People wanted both OTs replaced

B. People felt we would see improvement from
Leno and Massie with upgraded coaching

It’s only two games, but as of now it’s looking like the ones in the B group were correct. Massie and Leno have played pretty well to start the season.
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dplank
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Re: Offensive Line

Wed Sep 23, 2020 7:56 am

cblaz11 wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 6:43 am
I think there were two sides coming into this season in regards to the oline.

A. People wanted both OTs replaced

B. People felt we would see improvement from
Leno and Massie with upgraded coaching

It’s only two games, but as of now it’s looking like the ones in the B group were correct. Massie and Leno have played pretty well to start the season.
Agreed, they have impressed big time. I was in group A, although not one thought we’d replace BOTH, I argued we should replace one with a high end FA to stabilize things.

Pace should extend Ifedi now and save some cash.

But these guys are playing well! I did not believe a simple coaching change would have this impact, was wrong on that. I’d eat a plate of crow but I’m on a diet.
Chuck Pagano's defensive rankings in 6 years with Indy: 26th, 20th, 11th, 26th, 30th, and 30th.

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