Chuck Pagano to retire
Moderator: wab
- The Cooler King
- Hall of Famer
- Posts: 5005
- Joined: Wed Dec 18, 2019 11:07 pm
- Has thanked: 1203 times
- Been thanked: 346 times
- wab
- Mod
- Posts: 29805
- Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2008 12:49 pm
- Has thanked: 127 times
- Been thanked: 1956 times
Pagano really is a good guy, and he's not a bad coach. I think it's just one of those deals where he's so beholden to a scheme that has been passed by that it just no longer worked consistently.
Aggressive defenses kind of rule the day in the NFL, even if it's not laden with talent. It seems like there's been a bit of a paradigm shift where now offenses use talent to expose defenses and defenses use creative schemes to hid deficiencies in talent.
Aggressive defenses kind of rule the day in the NFL, even if it's not laden with talent. It seems like there's been a bit of a paradigm shift where now offenses use talent to expose defenses and defenses use creative schemes to hid deficiencies in talent.
- dplank
- Hall of Famer
- Posts: 12025
- Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2016 9:19 am
- Has thanked: 1201 times
- Been thanked: 2137 times
He hasn't been any good for a very long time now. 100% lived off a faux label bestowed upon him by overseeing a great Ravens defense for 1 year. Was immediately exposed in Indy and is 'retiring' to save face now and so that he can grift another franchise in a few years when he gets the urge to try again.wab wrote: ↑Wed Jan 13, 2021 11:39 am Pagano really is a good guy, and he's not a bad coach. I think it's just one of those deals where he's so beholden to a scheme that has been passed by that it just no longer worked consistently.
Aggressive defenses kind of rule the day in the NFL, even if it's not laden with talent. It seems like there's been a bit of a paradigm shift where now offenses use talent to expose defenses and defenses use creative schemes to hid deficiencies in talent.
- wab
- Mod
- Posts: 29805
- Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2008 12:49 pm
- Has thanked: 127 times
- Been thanked: 1956 times
Thanks. I'd almost forgotten how much you hate Pagano.dplank wrote: ↑Wed Jan 13, 2021 12:48 pmHe hasn't been any good for a very long time now. 100% lived off a faux label bestowed upon him by overseeing a great Ravens defense for 1 year. Was immediately exposed in Indy and is 'retiring' to save face now and so that he can grift another franchise in a few years when he gets the urge to try again.wab wrote: ↑Wed Jan 13, 2021 11:39 am Pagano really is a good guy, and he's not a bad coach. I think it's just one of those deals where he's so beholden to a scheme that has been passed by that it just no longer worked consistently.
Aggressive defenses kind of rule the day in the NFL, even if it's not laden with talent. It seems like there's been a bit of a paradigm shift where now offenses use talent to expose defenses and defenses use creative schemes to hid deficiencies in talent.
- G08
- Hall of Famer
- Posts: 20560
- Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2008 12:34 pm
- Location: Football Hell
- Has thanked: 209 times
- Been thanked: 758 times
It sounds like he genuinely retired. I thought he was forced out and this was to save face (maybe it swayed him that way, who knows).
Either way, best of luck Chuckie!
Either way, best of luck Chuckie!
9 PLAYOFF APPEARANCES IN THE PAST 35 SEASONS
- dplank
- Hall of Famer
- Posts: 12025
- Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2016 9:19 am
- Has thanked: 1201 times
- Been thanked: 2137 times
Snark is back baby!wab wrote: ↑Wed Jan 13, 2021 12:51 pmThanks. I'd almost forgotten how much you hate Pagano.dplank wrote: ↑Wed Jan 13, 2021 12:48 pm
He hasn't been any good for a very long time now. 100% lived off a faux label bestowed upon him by overseeing a great Ravens defense for 1 year. Was immediately exposed in Indy and is 'retiring' to save face now and so that he can grift another franchise in a few years when he gets the urge to try again.
-
- Head Coach
- Posts: 2165
- Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2012 6:56 am
- Has thanked: 1852 times
- Been thanked: 350 times
dplank was proven completely right about Pagano. What he did to the Bears D is a travesty. As lacking as the O is in talent you cant say the same about the D.
Mack - elite player under Fangio and one of the top defenders in all of football. Under Pagano he was a very good player but thats it.
Hicks - elite player under Fangio and one of the top defenders in all of football. Under Pagano he was a very good player but thats it. Injuries/age may be catching up to him admittedly.
DT - very good player under Fangio, average and often exposed under Pagano. Injuries/age may be catching up to him as well.
Roquan - good player under Fangio, best player on the D under Pagano. This could be Chuck or just Roquan aging and maturing into the NFL. But this is a plus for Chuck. Roquan is on the cusp of being or already is an elite player.
Quinn - very good player throughout his career. Shell of a player who was outplayed badly by JAGs like Mario Edwards and Brent Urban and other no name FA's under Pagano. Injuries are most likely part of this.
Fuller - One of the very best corners in football under Fangio and an elite player. Above average and descending under Pagano.
Jackson - One of if not the best FS in football under Fangio and an elite player. Turned into a bad SS under Pagano or an average at best FS.
Even before Mack trade and some of the other guys(Fuller/Jackson) stepped up their games, Fangio had gotten the unit to top 10 production. Under Pagano that unit would have been bottom 10 imho.
Pagano may be a great person, but i'm happy he's no longer a Bears coach.
Mack - elite player under Fangio and one of the top defenders in all of football. Under Pagano he was a very good player but thats it.
Hicks - elite player under Fangio and one of the top defenders in all of football. Under Pagano he was a very good player but thats it. Injuries/age may be catching up to him admittedly.
DT - very good player under Fangio, average and often exposed under Pagano. Injuries/age may be catching up to him as well.
Roquan - good player under Fangio, best player on the D under Pagano. This could be Chuck or just Roquan aging and maturing into the NFL. But this is a plus for Chuck. Roquan is on the cusp of being or already is an elite player.
Quinn - very good player throughout his career. Shell of a player who was outplayed badly by JAGs like Mario Edwards and Brent Urban and other no name FA's under Pagano. Injuries are most likely part of this.
Fuller - One of the very best corners in football under Fangio and an elite player. Above average and descending under Pagano.
Jackson - One of if not the best FS in football under Fangio and an elite player. Turned into a bad SS under Pagano or an average at best FS.
Even before Mack trade and some of the other guys(Fuller/Jackson) stepped up their games, Fangio had gotten the unit to top 10 production. Under Pagano that unit would have been bottom 10 imho.
Pagano may be a great person, but i'm happy he's no longer a Bears coach.
- spudbear
- MVP
- Posts: 1225
- Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2020 12:32 pm
- Has thanked: 249 times
- Been thanked: 140 times
It's a QB league, with occasional splashes by a dominating RB, and the league loves scoring so they'll do what they can to help the QB's. Any defense that can't get after a QB and limit his possession time will eventually fail.wab wrote: ↑Wed Jan 13, 2021 11:39 am Pagano really is a good guy, and he's not a bad coach. I think it's just one of those deals where he's so beholden to a scheme that has been passed by that it just no longer worked consistently.
Aggressive defenses kind of rule the day in the NFL, even if it's not laden with talent. It seems like there's been a bit of a paradigm shift where now offenses use talent to expose defenses and defenses use creative schemes to hid deficiencies in talent.
The Bears played two old but experienced QB's in Brady and Brees (to be matched up this weekend). Somehow the Bears D was able to get to Brady repeatedly and the Foles-led offense scored just enough to beat the Bucs. Was that Pagano calling a good game or just some of the Bears "stars" rising to the occasion?
Against Brees last Sunday the Bears did OK for a half and kept it close, though they didn't put much pressure on Brees. In the second half they wore down and Brees had the time to march the Saints down the field.
Do Pace and Nagy have enough contacts to find a DC diamond in the rough who can come up with the creative schemes? They'll need it as the deficiencies in talent may become more of a problem.
San Francisco has always been my favorite booing city. I don't mean the people boo louder or longer, but there is a very special intimacy. Music, that's what it is to me. One time in Kezar Stadium they gave me a standing boo.
George Halas
George Halas
- The Cooler King
- Hall of Famer
- Posts: 5005
- Joined: Wed Dec 18, 2019 11:07 pm
- Has thanked: 1203 times
- Been thanked: 346 times
Brees is pretty broken down at this point. I don't think you can draw too many conclusions there. They did decent for 3 quarters the second time they played Rodgers though. Ultimately though it's a D that can no longer cover for the O deficiencies. Even a marginally better offense could have helped the D a lot against the Saints and they probably play a full 4 quarters if they're kept well rested. But the Saints at this stage are still a step down from the real elite teams.spudbear wrote: ↑Wed Jan 13, 2021 3:09 pmIt's a QB league, with occasional splashes by a dominating RB, and the league loves scoring so they'll do what they can to help the QB's. Any defense that can't get after a QB and limit his possession time will eventually fail.wab wrote: ↑Wed Jan 13, 2021 11:39 am Pagano really is a good guy, and he's not a bad coach. I think it's just one of those deals where he's so beholden to a scheme that has been passed by that it just no longer worked consistently.
Aggressive defenses kind of rule the day in the NFL, even if it's not laden with talent. It seems like there's been a bit of a paradigm shift where now offenses use talent to expose defenses and defenses use creative schemes to hid deficiencies in talent.
The Bears played two old but experienced QB's in Brady and Brees (to be matched up this weekend). Somehow the Bears D was able to get to Brady repeatedly and the Foles-led offense scored just enough to beat the Bucs. Was that Pagano calling a good game or just some of the Bears "stars" rising to the occasion?
Against Brees last Sunday the Bears did OK for a half and kept it close, though they didn't put much pressure on Brees. In the second half they wore down and Brees had the time to march the Saints down the field.
Do Pace and Nagy have enough contacts to find a DC diamond in the rough who can come up with the creative schemes? They'll need it as the deficiencies in talent may become more of a problem.
So there's a plausible window whet the Bears maybe are a divisional round playoff team, but each step after can be that much harder. Its hard to see that 3 or 4 more steps out of the current team with their current trajectory. Time to rechart course IMO. I can accept they set a path 3 years ago and went for it and failed. I don't see good reason to believe that same path is a tweak or two away still.
- Xee
- Site Admin
- Posts: 3866
- Joined: Sat Nov 01, 2008 8:47 pm
- Location: Hoffman Estates, IL
- Has thanked: 66 times
- Been thanked: 129 times
I have no real opinion of Pagano because I'm not an X's and O's guy but our defense obviously was not performing at the level they are capable of so I'm all for getting someone new and seeing if we can get back to having a top defense.
- dplank
- Hall of Famer
- Posts: 12025
- Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2016 9:19 am
- Has thanked: 1201 times
- Been thanked: 2137 times
I struggle to articulate this point well or have specific examples to point to to help illustrate it, but I'll just lay it out there for you guys to tear apart if you wish.
The defense under Pagano - the defensive line in particular - seemed to play timid football. In a 3/4 set, it's common to see your DL play to simply occupy blockers and let your LB's chase and tackle freely vs having your DL attack the opponent with the intention of winning that matchup man on man and making the play for themselves. And you can kind of see it with your eyes, it's a dead giveaway when your DL aren't violently firing off the ball trying to hit gaps and/or win leverage.
When I watched the Rams/Seahawks game, I saw the direct opposite from the Rams. Floyd lined up outside like a sprinter, in that Wide 9 sorta thing, frequently and when he made contact with the OT he had speed and momentum built up which he would then counter off of. Donald fires off the ball trying to win every damn snap, that guy isn't there to occupy blockers he's there to pressure the quarterback.
Anyhow, the very quick eye test watching us play and the Rams play showed me how different we come off the ball vs how they do. I've been saying how I want the DL to rush the QB on every play and "play the run on their path to the QB" - this is sort of what I mean. Kind of, lol. I'm really having a hard time articulating it. Anyhow, with our method everything gets schemed up. DL hold their blockers while LB's or CB's disguise blitzes for pressures. And what happens every damn time we face a good QB? They see it a mile away and we're caught with our pants down i.e. WIDE OPEN receivers almost immediately - no time to get real pressure even if the blitz was executed well.
What Vic did was played more basic, fundamental football. He preferred a lot of zone coverages but would mix it up. He coached guys to play fast and violent, not to overthink out there just ball out and beat your man. Lovie was similar just with a different base approach of that Tampa 2 - but same idea, we're going to line up and we're not trying to trick you rather we're just going to beat you physically.
Whoever we hire as DC I want to follow that MO. It allows your beasts to go into beast mode instead of read/react mode. I believe this is why Quinn sucked here. I believe this is why Mack has been a shell of the player he once was. Even Hicks. It's why we went from the #1 sack and turnover team in the league to a bottom third one. Not all of these players regressed simultaneously. So if Jay Rogers has been secretly lobbying for a more of this type of defense, then go ahead and give him the keys to the car. Otherwise, gimme a guy like Wade Phillips or Jim Schwarz - someone who knows defense must be played with aggression and attitude.
The defense under Pagano - the defensive line in particular - seemed to play timid football. In a 3/4 set, it's common to see your DL play to simply occupy blockers and let your LB's chase and tackle freely vs having your DL attack the opponent with the intention of winning that matchup man on man and making the play for themselves. And you can kind of see it with your eyes, it's a dead giveaway when your DL aren't violently firing off the ball trying to hit gaps and/or win leverage.
When I watched the Rams/Seahawks game, I saw the direct opposite from the Rams. Floyd lined up outside like a sprinter, in that Wide 9 sorta thing, frequently and when he made contact with the OT he had speed and momentum built up which he would then counter off of. Donald fires off the ball trying to win every damn snap, that guy isn't there to occupy blockers he's there to pressure the quarterback.
Anyhow, the very quick eye test watching us play and the Rams play showed me how different we come off the ball vs how they do. I've been saying how I want the DL to rush the QB on every play and "play the run on their path to the QB" - this is sort of what I mean. Kind of, lol. I'm really having a hard time articulating it. Anyhow, with our method everything gets schemed up. DL hold their blockers while LB's or CB's disguise blitzes for pressures. And what happens every damn time we face a good QB? They see it a mile away and we're caught with our pants down i.e. WIDE OPEN receivers almost immediately - no time to get real pressure even if the blitz was executed well.
What Vic did was played more basic, fundamental football. He preferred a lot of zone coverages but would mix it up. He coached guys to play fast and violent, not to overthink out there just ball out and beat your man. Lovie was similar just with a different base approach of that Tampa 2 - but same idea, we're going to line up and we're not trying to trick you rather we're just going to beat you physically.
Whoever we hire as DC I want to follow that MO. It allows your beasts to go into beast mode instead of read/react mode. I believe this is why Quinn sucked here. I believe this is why Mack has been a shell of the player he once was. Even Hicks. It's why we went from the #1 sack and turnover team in the league to a bottom third one. Not all of these players regressed simultaneously. So if Jay Rogers has been secretly lobbying for a more of this type of defense, then go ahead and give him the keys to the car. Otherwise, gimme a guy like Wade Phillips or Jim Schwarz - someone who knows defense must be played with aggression and attitude.
- Grizzled
- Hall of Famer
- Posts: 5552
- Joined: Sun Dec 08, 2019 3:55 pm
- Has thanked: 605 times
- Been thanked: 485 times
I think Fangio's defenses were more attacking than Lovie's, which often seemed to play bend but don't break. But not to the degree of Pagano's. Under Pagano, takeaways were down, sacks were down. Ejax and Mack's games seem to decline. We need someone who more closely emulates Vic.
Drafts are like snowflakes, no two are alike.
- The Cooler King
- Hall of Famer
- Posts: 5005
- Joined: Wed Dec 18, 2019 11:07 pm
- Has thanked: 1203 times
- Been thanked: 346 times
Vics overall record in Chicago was not what you described. Obviously there's some issue of talent level his first few years, but even if Vic was around for 2019 and 2020 I think the true talent level was closer to those teams than the 2018 version. Which is to say, 2018 can be the outlier and Vic still better than Pagano. But as far as expectations go, to the extent the D was ever elite its not near that now heading into 2021.Grizzled wrote: ↑Wed Jan 13, 2021 4:32 pm I think Fangio's defenses were more attacking than Lovie's, which often seemed to play bend but don't break. But not to the degree of Pagano's. Under Pagano, takeaways were down, sacks were down. Ejax and Mack's games seem to decline. We need someone who more closely emulates Vic.
- wab
- Mod
- Posts: 29805
- Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2008 12:49 pm
- Has thanked: 127 times
- Been thanked: 1956 times
Pagano's scheme just isn't one that works anymore. Off coverage, letting your linebackers crush everyone, letting your pass rushers tee off on the QB, and hope the ball pops up off a WR getting drilled, or that the ball flutters long enough for a DB to pick it off in the zone just isn't going to work anymore.
It worked great for the Ravens, but that was a different NFL.
A lot of the successful defenses right now are units that mesh really well together and have a lot of speed. This "sit back and wait for the offense to screw up" stuff hasn't aged well.
It worked great for the Ravens, but that was a different NFL.
A lot of the successful defenses right now are units that mesh really well together and have a lot of speed. This "sit back and wait for the offense to screw up" stuff hasn't aged well.
- Z Bear
- MVP
- Posts: 1656
- Joined: Fri Apr 13, 2018 10:45 am
- Has thanked: 21 times
- Been thanked: 141 times
Lovie, Fangio, and Pagano are all soft rush 4 and play zone behind it defenses. Fangio is statistically the least blitzing DC there every was, but Lovie and Pagano (with the Bears) are not far behind. This worked well when you could beat up people and get TOs, but you cannot do that anymore in the NFL. I would like to see a tight man schemed DC come here that likes to blitz on long yardage situations. I am tired of passive defenses.
- dplank
- Hall of Famer
- Posts: 12025
- Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2016 9:19 am
- Has thanked: 1201 times
- Been thanked: 2137 times
Definitely agree herewab wrote: ↑Wed Jan 13, 2021 4:44 pm Pagano's scheme just isn't one that works anymore. Off coverage, letting your linebackers crush everyone, letting your pass rushers tee off on the QB, and hope the ball pops up off a WR getting drilled, or that the ball flutters long enough for a DB to pick it off in the zone just isn't going to work anymore.
It worked great for the Ravens, but that was a different NFL.
A lot of the successful defenses right now are units that mesh really well together and have a lot of speed. This "sit back and wait for the offense to screw up" stuff hasn't aged well.
- Boris13c
- Hall of Famer
- Posts: 15958
- Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2008 11:30 am
- Location: The Bear Nebula
- Has thanked: 38 times
- Been thanked: 103 times
Pagano looked overmatched by the opposition this year ... his defense seemed to be easily read and countered and I don't recall any other season where Bears defenders seemed to so regularly be out of position to even make a play
I don't think the players all of a sudden got terrible at reads and responsibilities, so the other option is Pagano's calls putting them in bad positions ... so not sorry to see him leave
I don't think the players all of a sudden got terrible at reads and responsibilities, so the other option is Pagano's calls putting them in bad positions ... so not sorry to see him leave
"Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things."
George Carlin
George Carlin
- docc
- Head Coach
- Posts: 3811
- Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2011 4:33 pm
- Location: Outpost of Reality S.E. Arizona
- Has thanked: 935 times
- Been thanked: 168 times
I agree..Pagano scheme have been thoroughly beaten..as he seems to be rigid as Nagy,, Hard to compare Lovie..etc different players different abilities. Yes..I would like a more aggressive style..pressure takes heat off CBs ..
We had way too many wide open in middle..seems teams always had a open outlet uncovered when we got pressure.
Old schemes..different players//
We had way too many wide open in middle..seems teams always had a open outlet uncovered when we got pressure.
Old schemes..different players//
- wab
- Mod
- Posts: 29805
- Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2008 12:49 pm
- Has thanked: 127 times
- Been thanked: 1956 times
Starting to see James Bettcher's name associated with the Bears.
He'd be exciting, dude loves to blitz.
The other guys who are popping up are all internal. Sean Desai and Jay Rodgers have already been floated, but Ted Monachino's name has come up too. He's the only name on the list I don't think I'd want.
He'd be exciting, dude loves to blitz.
The other guys who are popping up are all internal. Sean Desai and Jay Rodgers have already been floated, but Ted Monachino's name has come up too. He's the only name on the list I don't think I'd want.
- UOK
- Site Admin
- Posts: 25147
- Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2008 11:07 am
- Location: Champaign, IL
- Has thanked: 108 times
- Been thanked: 926 times
We thought Pagano would be a blitz machine too.wab wrote: ↑Thu Jan 14, 2021 2:42 pm Starting to see James Bettcher's name associated with the Bears.
He'd be exciting, dude loves to blitz.
The other guys who are popping up are all internal. Sean Desai and Jay Rodgers have already been floated, but Ted Monachino's name has come up too. He's the only name on the list I don't think I'd want.
- wab
- Mod
- Posts: 29805
- Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2008 12:49 pm
- Has thanked: 127 times
- Been thanked: 1956 times
Pagano went all flaccid after everyone started getting popped for pass interference and roughing the passer the first month of the season. They went from allowing the fewest yards of separation to... not doing that.UOK wrote: ↑Thu Jan 14, 2021 2:44 pmWe thought Pagano would be a blitz machine too.wab wrote: ↑Thu Jan 14, 2021 2:42 pm Starting to see James Bettcher's name associated with the Bears.
He'd be exciting, dude loves to blitz.
The other guys who are popping up are all internal. Sean Desai and Jay Rodgers have already been floated, but Ted Monachino's name has come up too. He's the only name on the list I don't think I'd want.
- G08
- Hall of Famer
- Posts: 20560
- Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2008 12:34 pm
- Location: Football Hell
- Has thanked: 209 times
- Been thanked: 758 times
Some rumblings that Bettcher was a consultant for us this past season. I wouldn't hate him but I really want to see what Sean Desai can do...wab wrote: ↑Thu Jan 14, 2021 2:42 pm Starting to see James Bettcher's name associated with the Bears.
He'd be exciting, dude loves to blitz.
The other guys who are popping up are all internal. Sean Desai and Jay Rodgers have already been floated, but Ted Monachino's name has come up too. He's the only name on the list I don't think I'd want.
9 PLAYOFF APPEARANCES IN THE PAST 35 SEASONS
- Bearfanuk
- Assistant Coach
- Posts: 669
- Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2013 3:48 am
- Location: England
- Been thanked: 1 time
- Contact:
He had success in Arizona but then didn’t have it in the giants. Some of that could be talent but how often have we said that. I’d rather go someone new with fresh ideas and without any he did ok here but not here rubbish.
Strength of defence had been consistent development of D linemen give that dude his shot
Strength of defence had been consistent development of D linemen give that dude his shot
Have a great day
- The Cooler King
- Hall of Famer
- Posts: 5005
- Joined: Wed Dec 18, 2019 11:07 pm
- Has thanked: 1203 times
- Been thanked: 346 times
Damn, that makes it much tougher. He's free to pursue any opportunity.
- crueltyabc
- Hall of Famer
- Posts: 5119
- Joined: Mon May 04, 2009 7:36 pm
- Location: Dallas TX
- Has thanked: 79 times
- Been thanked: 226 times
This is exactly why the Bears are built wrong. Pace has heavily invested in talent on defense and (theoretically) coaching/scheme on offense. Now he needs to find a brilliant DC who can overcome the bias of the league toward offenses and/or quickly shift investment from defense to offense via trade
xyt in the discord chats