ARob 'underestimated' effect of Trubisky, Foles switch

[wab]

https://www.nbcsports.com/chicago/bears ... e-expected

ARob 'underestimated' effect of Trubisky, Foles switch
32M AGO
/
BY ALEX SHAPIRO

There’s an old adage in the NFL, “If you have two QBs, you have none.” At times last season for the Bears that cliché played out to be true. Matt Nagy’s decision to flip from Mitchell Trubisky to Nick Foles was understandable, and when Foles got hurt, the flip back to Trubisky was unavoidable. But when speaking on Cris Collinsworth’s podcast on Tuesday, Allen Robinson said even he underestimated the effect those changes would have on the Bears.T

“Going into the season last year, I didn’t really think, because I hadn’t really played with two quarterbacks for awhile, I didn’t really think how it would affect me as a player, or how it would affect our offense,” Robinson said. “I definitely underestimated that. Because for us, we ran two different schemes. You know, we had two different people calling the plays. You know, you’re trying to learn and adjust to two different people, on the fly.

“Nick, when he gets to the line, he likes to get you into the right play, get you into the right looks and things like that. He’s very gung ho on checks and adjustments at the line of scrimmage. So for guys, that’s something that guy’s had to get used to. Even some of the young guys, being in they playbooks non-stop. Because Nick, if he sees something, he’s going to get to a “block-block-flat,” if he sees a possible nickel blitz or something like that. Or he might get to a screen. It’s like, the whole playbook is open at any time.

“Then also when you have Mitch, you know, the scheme is a little bit different. We want to use his athleticism some more. So some of the different concepts that we bring into it, and kinda evolve into the offense are a little bit different.”

But that wasn’t all the upheaval Robinson and the offense had to deal with either. Mark Helfrich was out as offensive coordinator, and the Bears replaced him with Bill Lazor.

“So coming into training camp, we’re learning his system,” Robinson said. “Then when Nick came in, we’re going to a different kind of system, more west-coast style. So it was a lot last year, and it was something that, for myself, I definitely underestimated that it may have had, having two different quarterbacks, and playing it multiple kinds of schemes. It was tough a little bit sometimes last year.”

Ryan Pace seems determined to find one true starter this season, so barring any injuries the Bears should avoid an identity crisis like they faced last season. Lazor is sticking around for a second year, too, so that continuity should help. Just like Robinson didn’t expect little things like that to hold the offense back, maybe those two little things boost the offense more than anyone anticipates this season.

Translation: The offense didn't know the whole playbook because Mitch didn't, so when the guy that did know the playbook was the QB, everyone was confused and didn't know what to do.

[WagonForce]

I agree with the translation, that's what I took as well. More evidence that the mental component of the game is not there for Mitch. Is it not there because he was not developed correctly or because it would never be there to begin with? We may never know. One thing we can be sure of is that unless you're so athletic that you can straight out-athlete a league filled to the brim with absolute freaks of nature, you're not going to be anything at QB without having something special between your ears.

I've been pretty hard on Pace at times. Nonetheless, I find myself wondering 'what if' regarding his tenure with the Bears so far. I don't mean 'what if' he never made any mistakes, more like 'what if' that QB pick in 2017 had worked out differently. The pieces were in place in so many ways. In that other timeline, are we still in the afterglow of a Bears title in 2018? Impossible to know of course but it makes me think about how Pace may have taken a rudderless club and been very close to punching through to near immortality with the Bears.

I'm sure a lot of GMs in the league, if afforded the same perspective, could conjure up titles that would have been. At the same time, I don't know if it's that far fetched for Ryan Pace and the Bears. Does this mean he should be given more opportunities to try again? With all the vaguery around his contract, we may already be walking this path.

[The Grizzly One]

I agree with the translation, that's what I took as well. More evidence that the mental component of the game is not there for Mitch. Is it not there because he was not developed correctly or because it would never be there to begin with? We may never know. One thing we can be sure of is that unless you're so athletic that you can straight out-athlete a league filled to the brim with absolute freaks of nature, you're not going to be anything at QB without having something special between your ears.

I've been pretty hard on Pace at times. Nonetheless, I find myself wondering 'what if' regarding his tenure with the Bears so far. I don't mean 'what if' he never made any mistakes, more like 'what if' that QB pick in 2017 had worked out differently. The pieces were in place in so many ways. In that other timeline, are we still in the afterglow of a Bears title in 2018? Impossible to know of course but it makes me think about how Pace may have taken a rudderless club and been very close to punching through to near immortality with the Bears.

I'm sure a lot of GMs in the league, if afforded the same perspective, could conjure up titles that would have been. At the same time, I don't know if it's that far fetched for Ryan Pace and the Bears. Does this mean he should be given more opportunities to try again? With all the vaguery around his contract, we may already be walking this path.

I really thought the only chance Pace had to save his job was to shit-can Nagy after the season. I'm not against Pace having one more chance. But Nagy has been, and continues to be, his biggest mistake, The QB thing was awful. But that decision is easy to get wrong.

[The Marshall Plan]

I agree with the translation, that's what I took as well. More evidence that the mental component of the game is not there for Mitch. Is it not there because he was not developed correctly or because it would never be there to begin with? We may never know. One thing we can be sure of is that unless you're so athletic that you can straight out-athlete a league filled to the brim with absolute freaks of nature, you're not going to be anything at QB without having something special between your ears.

I've been pretty hard on Pace at times. Nonetheless, I find myself wondering 'what if' regarding his tenure with the Bears so far. I don't mean 'what if' he never made any mistakes, more like 'what if' that QB pick in 2017 had worked out differently. The pieces were in place in so many ways. In that other timeline, are we still in the afterglow of a Bears title in 2018? Impossible to know of course but it makes me think about how Pace may have taken a rudderless club and been very close to punching through to near immortality with the Bears.

I'm sure a lot of GMs in the league, if afforded the same perspective, could conjure up titles that would have been. At the same time, I don't know if it's that far fetched for Ryan Pace and the Bears. Does this mean he should be given more opportunities to try again? With all the vaguery around his contract, we may already be walking this path.

Ryan Pace made the greatest mistake in franchise history and that’s saying something with that bunch.

The 2018 Bears would’ve won a Super Bowl with either Watson or Mahomes. How couldn’t they have? They were a double doink away from one with Mitch. The NFC was very beatable that year. We also played the Patriots tough that regular season.

How about Watson or Mahomes on the 2020 team that went 8-8 with Mitch and Foles? Wouldn’t those guys be worth at least 2 or 3 more wins?

But here we are. Mitch is a dud.

As much as it pisses me off. It’s like talking about Episode 8. It’s a shit movie. Rian Johnson screwed the pooch and ruined old man Luke Skywalker. I can’t change it.

My mind is on hoping Pace and Nagy get fired and we either trade for Minschew or trade up in the draft for a QB. Now I sit here and hope we either trade for a QB that looks like a porn star or we sell enough draft picks and players to move up into the top ten and hope like hell somebody is still there.

A coach can’t be kept after a six game losing streak and failing to develop a QB which was the big reason why he was brought here.

A GM can’t keep his job for literally dodging two HOF QBs in a draft when he had the first crack at all three. He just can’t.

[southdakbearfan]

https://www.nbcsports.com/chicago/bears ... e-expected

ARob 'underestimated' effect of Trubisky, Foles switch
32M AGO
/
BY ALEX SHAPIRO

There’s an old adage in the NFL, “If you have two QBs, you have none.” At times last season for the Bears that cliché played out to be true. Matt Nagy’s decision to flip from Mitchell Trubisky to Nick Foles was understandable, and when Foles got hurt, the flip back to Trubisky was unavoidable. But when speaking on Cris Collinsworth’s podcast on Tuesday, Allen Robinson said even he underestimated the effect those changes would have on the Bears.T

“Going into the season last year, I didn’t really think, because I hadn’t really played with two quarterbacks for awhile, I didn’t really think how it would affect me as a player, or how it would affect our offense,” Robinson said. “I definitely underestimated that. Because for us, we ran two different schemes. You know, we had two different people calling the plays. You know, you’re trying to learn and adjust to two different people, on the fly.

“Nick, when he gets to the line, he likes to get you into the right play, get you into the right looks and things like that. He’s very gung ho on checks and adjustments at the line of scrimmage. So for guys, that’s something that guy’s had to get used to. Even some of the young guys, being in they playbooks non-stop. Because Nick, if he sees something, he’s going to get to a “block-block-flat,” if he sees a possible nickel blitz or something like that. Or he might get to a screen. It’s like, the whole playbook is open at any time.

“Then also when you have Mitch, you know, the scheme is a little bit different. We want to use his athleticism some more. So some of the different concepts that we bring into it, and kinda evolve into the offense are a little bit different.”

But that wasn’t all the upheaval Robinson and the offense had to deal with either. Mark Helfrich was out as offensive coordinator, and the Bears replaced him with Bill Lazor.

“So coming into training camp, we’re learning his system,” Robinson said. “Then when Nick came in, we’re going to a different kind of system, more west-coast style. So it was a lot last year, and it was something that, for myself, I definitely underestimated that it may have had, having two different quarterbacks, and playing it multiple kinds of schemes. It was tough a little bit sometimes last year.”

Ryan Pace seems determined to find one true starter this season, so barring any injuries the Bears should avoid an identity crisis like they faced last season. Lazor is sticking around for a second year, too, so that continuity should help. Just like Robinson didn’t expect little things like that to hold the offense back, maybe those two little things boost the offense more than anyone anticipates this season.

Translation: The offense didn't know the whole playbook because Mitch didn't, so when the guy that did know the playbook was the QB, everyone was confused and didn't know what to do.

Translation, one guy had concrete shoes the other didn’t so we had to learn two completely different offenses.

[Arkansasbear]

https://www.nbcsports.com/chicago/bears ... e-expected

ARob 'underestimated' effect of Trubisky, Foles switch
32M AGO
/
BY ALEX SHAPIRO

There’s an old adage in the NFL, “If you have two QBs, you have none.” At times last season for the Bears that cliché played out to be true. Matt Nagy’s decision to flip from Mitchell Trubisky to Nick Foles was understandable, and when Foles got hurt, the flip back to Trubisky was unavoidable. But when speaking on Cris Collinsworth’s podcast on Tuesday, Allen Robinson said even he underestimated the effect those changes would have on the Bears.T

“Going into the season last year, I didn’t really think, because I hadn’t really played with two quarterbacks for awhile, I didn’t really think how it would affect me as a player, or how it would affect our offense,” Robinson said. “I definitely underestimated that. Because for us, we ran two different schemes. You know, we had two different people calling the plays. You know, you’re trying to learn and adjust to two different people, on the fly.

“Nick, when he gets to the line, he likes to get you into the right play, get you into the right looks and things like that. He’s very gung ho on checks and adjustments at the line of scrimmage. So for guys, that’s something that guy’s had to get used to. Even some of the young guys, being in they playbooks non-stop. Because Nick, if he sees something, he’s going to get to a “block-block-flat,” if he sees a possible nickel blitz or something like that. Or he might get to a screen. It’s like, the whole playbook is open at any time.

“Then also when you have Mitch, you know, the scheme is a little bit different. We want to use his athleticism some more. So some of the different concepts that we bring into it, and kinda evolve into the offense are a little bit different.”

But that wasn’t all the upheaval Robinson and the offense had to deal with either. Mark Helfrich was out as offensive coordinator, and the Bears replaced him with Bill Lazor.

“So coming into training camp, we’re learning his system,” Robinson said. “Then when Nick came in, we’re going to a different kind of system, more west-coast style. So it was a lot last year, and it was something that, for myself, I definitely underestimated that it may have had, having two different quarterbacks, and playing it multiple kinds of schemes. It was tough a little bit sometimes last year.”

Ryan Pace seems determined to find one true starter this season, so barring any injuries the Bears should avoid an identity crisis like they faced last season. Lazor is sticking around for a second year, too, so that continuity should help. Just like Robinson didn’t expect little things like that to hold the offense back, maybe those two little things boost the offense more than anyone anticipates this season.

Translation: The offense didn't know the whole playbook because Mitch didn't, so when the guy that did know the playbook was the QB, everyone was confused and didn't know what to do.

I don't read it that way. It has nothing to do with the playbook, it has to do with his ability to process what he see pre-snap. Foles can do that and can check out to a play that might have a better chance. Mitch not so much. It's not an issue of now knowing the playbook, it's an issue of not knowing how to beat the defense that has been called. Heck, it may be an issue of not understanding what defense you are facing. In fact as I'm typing I think that more the issue. When Mitch looks out he doesn't know how to break down what he is seeing to understand what he should change to. So post-snap he gets the ball, the defense that has been called is good against that play so he has to rely on his athletic ability to try and make something happen.

It's still a "between the ears" issue but I don';t think it's because he hasn't learned the playbook.

[thunderspirit]

I agree with Arkansasbear. It sounds to me like Foles was seeing the defense and changing to block it based on that, while Trubisky was not. I don't think it has anything to do with the playbook.

[wab]

I don’t know. Robinson pretty clearly implied it when he said “the whole playbook is available at any time” when Foles was playing.

[Atkins&Rebel]

https://www.nbcsports.com/chicago/bears ... e-expected



Translation: The offense didn't know the whole playbook because Mitch didn't, so when the guy that did know the playbook was the QB, everyone was confused and didn't know what to do.

I don't read it that way. It has nothing to do with the playbook, it has to do with his ability to process what he see pre-snap. Foles can do that and can check out to a play that might have a better chance. Mitch not so much. It's not an issue of now knowing the playbook, it's an issue of not knowing how to beat the defense that has been called. Heck, it may be an issue of not understanding what defense you are facing. In fact as I'm typing I think that more the issue. When Mitch looks out he doesn't know how to break down what he is seeing to understand what he should change to. So post-snap he gets the ball, the defense that has been called is good against that play so he has to rely on his athletic ability to try and make something happen.

It's still a "between the ears" issue but I don';t think it's because he hasn't learned the playbook.

And here I am looking at it another way:
Nagy called plays based on the plays that worked well in practice, no matter who is in the lineup.
Mitch would run the plays; Nick would check out of plays he knew wouldn't work based on personnel and pre snap reads.

[spudbear]

The effect of the porous pass blocking amplified the differences. Mitch, not knowing the play book, didn't have the time to improvise or call out an effective audible. Foles, with limited mobility, could call the right audible but didn't have the time to finish the play.

I think a better O-line would help Foles and the offense scoring more than Mitch. You're not going to win championships with a QB who does not know the playbook well enough to line everybody up where they are supposed to be, or call an effective change in play to take advantage of a defense.

[southdakbearfan]

I don’t know. Robinson pretty clearly implied it when he said “the whole playbook is available at any time” when Foles was playing.

Except any play that requires him to move more than 6”.

[Rusty Trombagent]

I increasingly think that the real failure of our offense, the hurdle we'll need to get over if we're ever to reach offensive respectability, is that Nagy isnt a very good teacher. And I think that Nagy knows this, as evidenced by his constant hiring of old head coaches as offensive assistants.

[Mikefive]

The inability to read defenses and go through read progressions (made easier by being able to navigate pre-snap reads) are Trubisky's fatal flaws. I hope he can figure that stuff out, because if he does it will make him a pretty decent QB. But he departs for free agency with those rocks in his backpack.

In my view, there's nothing wrong with a QB who reads the field well and gets rid of the ball. But you can't have a disastrous OL with a guy like that--which we did last year.

[G08]

I agree with Arkansasbear. It sounds to me like Foles was seeing the defense and changing to block it based on that, while Trubisky was not. I don't think it has anything to do with the playbook.

Yeah, co-signed.

[HisRoyalSweetness]

And here I am looking at it another way:
Nagy called plays based on the plays that worked well in practice, no matter who is in the lineup.
Mitch would run the plays; Nick would check out of plays he knew wouldn't work based on personnel and pre snap reads.

Anthony Miller might disagree:

"I think the plays that we practice and that we execute in practice all week, they need to be called when we get to the game on Sunday. We know we can execute them, we just, everybody just needs the chance to ball out. That's my take."

Nick Foles has the benefit of age and experience over Trubisky:

"Sometimes play calls come in and I know I don’t have time to execute that play call. I’m the one out here getting hit. Sometimes the guy calling the plays, Matt Nagy, doesn’t know how much time there is back here."

Trubisky strikes me as a guy who has always done exactly what his coaches tell him. When he returned for the final few games he seemed a bit better prepared to stand up for himself, perhaps due to Foles' influence, perhaps because he had finally lost his faith in Nagy, but it still wasn't enough. Ultimately he's got to take control of his own career and trust himself more than his coaches. Whether he has the personality to do that remains to be seen.

[Yogi da Bear]

https://www.nbcsports.com/chicago/bears ... e-expected



Translation: The offense didn't know the whole playbook because Mitch didn't, so when the guy that did know the playbook was the QB, everyone was confused and didn't know what to do.

Translation, one guy had concrete shoes the other didn’t so we had to learn two completely different offenses.

Second Translation: Self-aggrandizing statement from a receiver in free agency looking to increase his worth as much as possible.

Remember when Foles complained during the season that Nagy was calling plays in games that they hadn't run in practice that Foles knew wouldn't work? Well, if Foles knew that the play wouldn't work beforehand, and he was able to access the whole playbook and audible out pre-snap, why didn't he? Not only that, but if Foles was so good with the playbook why was he so shitty with while Trubs was so much more successful after he was substituted back in?

Given this, I think that SDBF's initial translation is very accurate, with mine a close second--"look at me and all the trials I had to put with. Think of how much more value I bring to a team that only has one system and one QB in place."

[Atkins&Rebel]

And here I am looking at it another way:
Nagy called plays based on the plays that worked well in practice, no matter who is in the lineup.
Mitch would run the plays; Nick would check out of plays he knew wouldn't work based on personnel and pre snap reads.

Anthony Miller might disagree:

"I think the plays that we practice and that we execute in practice all week, they need to be called when we get to the game on Sunday. We know we can execute them, we just, everybody just needs the chance to ball out. That's my take."

Nick Foles has the benefit of age and experience over Trubisky:

"Sometimes play calls come in and I know I don’t have time to execute that play call. I’m the one out here getting hit. Sometimes the guy calling the plays, Matt Nagy, doesn’t know how much time there is back here."

Trubisky strikes me as a guy who has always done exactly what his coaches tell him. When he returned for the final few games he seemed a bit better prepared to stand up for himself, perhaps due to Foles' influence, perhaps because he had finally lost his faith in Nagy, but it still wasn't enough. Ultimately he's got to take control of his own career and trust himself more than his coaches. Whether he has the personality to do that remains to be seen.

I am 100% positive that Nagy didn't ditch the complete game plan practiced for the week as soon as game time started. I'm sure there were plays that he used in games that they didn't emphasize and plays they did emphasize that didn't fit the game flow.

[dplank]

Translation, one guy had concrete shoes the other didn’t so we had to learn two completely different offenses.

Not only that, but if Foles was so good with the playbook why was he so shitty with while Trubs was so much more successful after he was substituted back in?

Because he played against the Lions and Texans?

[RichH55]

Titans were Bottom 10 in Terms of Points Allowed

I know that doesn't count against Nick Foles - under the trademarked Nothing Counts Against Nick Foles Corollary

But it does happen to be true - Foles played against Tennessee and Tennessee's Defense liked to give up Points to other teams

[RichH55]

Can I posit this?

He didn't mean to throw anyone under the bus either way

As much fun as people like to have playing Amateur Kremlinologist

[wab]

Can I posit this?

He didn't mean to throw anyone under the bus either way

As much fun as people like to have playing Amateur Kremlinologist

I don't think he was throwing anyone under the bus. He was making an observation about how different the offenses were with different QB's.

The inherent reasons for that were my own assumptions.

[RichH55]

Can I posit this?

He didn't mean to throw anyone under the bus either way

As much fun as people like to have playing Amateur Kremlinologist

I don't think he was throwing anyone under the bus. He was making an observation about how different the offenses were with different QB's.

The inherent reasons for that were my own assumptions.

But isn't he just saying a basic football cliche (true mind you but cliche nonetheless)

Continuity matters?

[Rusty Trombagent]

But isn't he just saying a basic football cliche (true mind you but cliche nonetheless)

Continuity matters?

Absolutely, and i think he was trying to take it a bit beyond a lame cliche by giving us insight into how it's actually true. I think most people dont think he was throwing any one under the bus, but in trying to show us how radically the offense changed between qb's, invariably you're going to read into the reasons why that's true.

It's just sort of twisting into a semantics argument now.

[dplank]

Titans were Bottom 10 in Terms of Points Allowed

I know that doesn't count against Nick Foles - under the trademarked Nothing Counts Against Nick Foles Corollary

But it does happen to be true - Foles played against Tennessee and Tennessee's Defense liked to give up Points to other teams

In that game we had Whitehair, Massie, Daniels, Spriggs and Mustipher all out. We almost couldn't field a team and there was a possibility that they postponed our game (they should have IMO). Bars ended up playing center, Hambright played G, and Coward played RT. It was the single worst blocking performance I've ever seen.

But you know that. Poor form. Again.

[IE]

Titans were Bottom 10 in Terms of Points Allowed

I know that doesn't count against Nick Foles - under the trademarked Nothing Counts Against Nick Foles Corollary

But it does happen to be true - Foles played against Tennessee and Tennessee's Defense liked to give up Points to other teams

In that game we had Whitehair, Massie, Daniels, Spriggs and Mustipher all out. We almost couldn't field a team and there was a possibility that they postponed our game (they should have IMO). Bars ended up playing center, Hambright played G, and Coward played RT. It was the single worst blocking performance I've ever seen.

But you know that. Poor form. Again.

Foles still threw for 335 yards and 2 TDs and over 60% completions. Of course he was sacked 3 times and Monty only averaged 2 ypc for 14 carries behind that line.

But yeah... Foles sucks, right?

[dplank]

In that game we had Whitehair, Massie, Daniels, Spriggs and Mustipher all out. We almost couldn't field a team and there was a possibility that they postponed our game (they should have IMO). Bars ended up playing center, Hambright played G, and Coward played RT. It was the single worst blocking performance I've ever seen.

But you know that. Poor form. Again.

Foles still threw for 335 yards and 2 TDs and over 60% completions. Of course he was sacked 3 times and Monty only averaged 2 ypc for 14 carries behind that line.

But yeah... Foles sucks, right?

Well, I'm not claiming that Foles doesn't still suck lol. He padded those stats in garbage time IIRC (the TD's at least, otherwise I agree he did about as well as could be expected). Point was that no QB succeeds in that game, absolutely none. We simply couldn't block them that day, regardless of their ranking, because of our injury / Covid situation up front. And folks know that, but some play these games anyways, which I find annoying.

ARob made a pretty simple point that's been verified a dozen different ways by a dozen different sources. Mitch can't read the field and make real time adjustments at an NFL level - period, end of story. So the number of adjustments at the LOS when he was playing vs when Foles was playing was drastically different, and that takes time to adjust to as a whole (OL, WR's, etc all need to be in sync out there). Mitch is gone and I have zero desire to constantly rehash his legacy.

[RichH55]

Titans were Bottom 10 in Terms of Points Allowed

I know that doesn't count against Nick Foles - under the trademarked Nothing Counts Against Nick Foles Corollary

But it does happen to be true - Foles played against Tennessee and Tennessee's Defense liked to give up Points to other teams

In that game we had Whitehair, Massie, Daniels, Spriggs and Mustipher all out. We almost couldn't field a team and there was a possibility that they postponed our game (they should have IMO). Bars ended up playing center, Hambright played G, and Coward played RT. It was the single worst blocking performance I've ever seen.

But you know that. Poor form. Again.

As long as we don't say Foles had Poor Form....because GOD FORBID that

Possible Nick Foles "Poor Form" objections next year:
Too Cold
Too Warm
Not Warm Enough?
Foles is like Garfield and Hates Mondays?
NFL Racist against White QBs?
Win/Losses/Points don't matter (See Deshawn Watson)
Navy just isn't his color
HE'S TRYING RICH!
He previously won the Super Bowl thus do not believe your lying Eyes on hows he's playing
In this Economy?!?!

I miss any?

[RichH55]

I can't believe they made us play without Spriggs and Mustipher!!!

Daniels missed most of the year - Massie missed a good chunk though wasn't missed by fans

Jason Spriggs couldn't play - CANCEL FOOTBALL

[docc]

[aussiebear99]

Regardless of whether Jay said that or not, this is your internet until further notice.