Excited Delirium Over Fields

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G08 wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:01 am
dplank wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 8:59 am

Bottom third of the league in yards/scoring would be a flounder.
I don't give a shit about yards, honestly. Scoring/points are the only thing that matters.

Being ranked 21st/22nd in scoring would be considered bottom third, are you saying if that occurs you want him gone?
Yes, an yards do matter. Scoring/points can be heavily influenced by your defense, as we saw in 2018. You can't just look at points - or yards - nothing is that simple all these things play off each other. Yards means your moving the ball, which means you're helping your defense with field position and TOP. Everything requires context, even my "bottom third" marker needs some context if it's not clearly representative of actual performance. But generally speaking, yea, if Nagy can't get this offense into even the top 2/3 of the league after 4 years? He should be fired. That is an extraordinarily low bar, like I'm kind of embarrassed by how low a bar that is. We should be expecting an offensive minded HC to be driving us to a Top 10 offense year in and year out. When Lovie was our defensive minded HC, he drove us to a Top 10 defense year in and year out - this shouldn't be any different.

And, before you think I'm being negative here - I expect him to do it! I think he finally has the pieces he needs to run his offense, I'm really excited to see it.
Last edited by dplank on Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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dplank wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:08 am
G08 wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:01 am

I don't give a shit about yards, honestly. Scoring/points are the only thing that matters.

Being ranked 21st/22nd in scoring would be considered bottom third, are you saying if that occurs you want him gone?
Yes, an yards do matter. Scoring/points can be heavily influenced by your defense, as we saw in 2018. Yards means your moving the ball, which means you're helping your defense with field position and TOP. Everything requires context, even my "bottom third" marker needs some context if it's not clearly representative of actual performance. But generally speaking, yea, if Nagy can't get this offense into even the top 2/3 of the league after 4 years? He should be fired. That is an extraordinarily low bar, like I'm kind of embarrassed by how low a bar that is. We should be expecting an offensive minded HC to be driving us to a Top 10 offense year in and year out. When Lovie was our defensive minded HC, he drove us to a Top 10 defense year in and year out - this shouldn't be any different.
Well, I mean, Lovie was given the Bears way which is putting all the resources into the D. Nagy has not been given that. Its alot easier to have a top unit on one side of the ball when all the resources are dumped there. Even this year, our spending on D is ranked 8th in the NFL and on offense its 23rd. Expecting Nagy's O to be top 10 when the resources aren't there is unreasonable imo. The only sure thing on this offense is Allen Robinson and maybe Montgomery. Next up you have a post injury Cohen and guys struggling to be above average like Mooney & Kmet, old man Graham, and Whitehair/Daniels plus the rookie Jenkins. On D you have Mack, Hicks, Jackson and Roquan who are all star level players, and Goldman, Quinn(pre Bears at least) and Danny T all can have arguments made for them. That's potential 7 of the 11 starters, with JJ and Bilal Nichols appearing to be very good players vs the O where theres maybe 2-4? The talent level and resources on the this team are still completely backwards for this to be a consistent top 10 offense.
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HurricaneBear wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:19 am
dplank wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:08 am

Yes, an yards do matter. Scoring/points can be heavily influenced by your defense, as we saw in 2018. Yards means your moving the ball, which means you're helping your defense with field position and TOP. Everything requires context, even my "bottom third" marker needs some context if it's not clearly representative of actual performance. But generally speaking, yea, if Nagy can't get this offense into even the top 2/3 of the league after 4 years? He should be fired. That is an extraordinarily low bar, like I'm kind of embarrassed by how low a bar that is. We should be expecting an offensive minded HC to be driving us to a Top 10 offense year in and year out. When Lovie was our defensive minded HC, he drove us to a Top 10 defense year in and year out - this shouldn't be any different.
Well, I mean, Lovie was given the Bears way which is putting all the resources into the D. Nagy has not been given that. Its alot easier to have a top unit on one side of the ball when all the resources are dumped there. Even this year, our spending on D is ranked 8th in the NFL and on offense its 23rd. Expecting Nagy's O to be top 10 when the resources aren't there is unreasonable imo. The only sure thing on this offense is Allen Robinson and maybe Montgomery. Next up you have a post injury Cohen and guys struggling to be above average like Mooney & Kmet, old man Graham, and Whitehair/Daniels plus the rookie Jenkins. On D you have Mack, Hicks, Jackson and Roquan who are all star level players, and Goldman, Quinn(pre Bears at least) and Danny T all can have arguments made for them. That's potential 7 of the 11 starters, with JJ and Bilal Nichols appearing to be very good players vs the O where theres maybe 2-4? The talent level and resources on the this team are still completely backwards for this to be a consistent top 10 offense.
Very true, which is why I put such a low bar on it. Top 2/3 is a very, very low bar man. And, our cap allocation is now shifting to offense as it should. We let Fuller go so we could keep ARob, that's a big shift. We spent most of our draft on offense. And what little FA work we did was generally focused on offense as well. We need to see the results come along with that, and we need to see it now. It's time. And climbing out of the bottom third just isn't an unreasonable ask at all. Nagy has what he needs to accomplish this miniscule task.
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dplank wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:08 am
G08 wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:01 am

I don't give a shit about yards, honestly. Scoring/points are the only thing that matters.

Being ranked 21st/22nd in scoring would be considered bottom third, are you saying if that occurs you want him gone?
Yes, an yards do matter. Scoring/points can be heavily influenced by your defense, as we saw in 2018. You can't just look at points - or yards - nothing is that simple all these things play off each other. Yards means your moving the ball, which means you're helping your defense with field position and TOP. Everything requires context, even my "bottom third" marker needs some context if it's not clearly representative of actual performance. But generally speaking, yea, if Nagy can't get this offense into even the top 2/3 of the league after 4 years? He should be fired. That is an extraordinarily low bar, like I'm kind of embarrassed by how low a bar that is. We should be expecting an offensive minded HC to be driving us to a Top 10 offense year in and year out. When Lovie was our defensive minded HC, he drove us to a Top 10 defense year in and year out - this shouldn't be any different.

And, before you think I'm being negative here - I expect him to do it! I think he finally has the pieces he needs to run his offense, I'm really excited to see it.
I can agree to the TOP component, but I derive zero value in being top 3 in yards if those drives end in FGs/missed FGs/turnovers etc. You also have to look at the construct of your team... if your defense is a strength you can afford to be more aggressive on offense because if you're forced to punt or throw an INT, your defense will pick you up. Conversely, if your defense is a weak point, you likely will become more conservative and try to focus on bleeding clock etc.

All things considered, if Nagy is operating this offense full tilt, I would be disappointed if we weren't top 15 (I'd say top 10 but this is Chicago and I have history on my side).
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G08 wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:01 am
I don't give a shit about yards, honestly. Scoring/points are the only thing that matters.
From a "That's What Determines Who Wins" perspective, sure.
But from an "Evaluating How Good Your Offensive Side of the Ball Is" perspective, absolutely not.
Last edited by Moriarty on Mon Jun 14, 2021 11:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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dplank wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 8:56 am I'm gonna trust whatever Nagy decides is best...BUT, I'm not giving Nagy a free pass this year just because Fields is a rookie. If this offense continues to flounder, Nagy's gotta go IMO. Adjust thinking accordingly.
This is important and a bit overlooked in the discussion. The HC and offensive leader is up there in importance with the franchise QB. You can live with a journeyman coach just like you can live with a journeyman QB... but you're going to end up in 7-10 to 9-8 purgatory. We still really don't know that Nagy is anything more than a journeyman HC with some cute offensive wrinkles but no real feel for effective game day strategy and leadership.

It would be a huge mistake to give Nagy another year if the offense was in the lower half of the league. Not third - it has to be top half. All the excuses are gone. He has to meet the expectation of being an offensive guru and it needs to show up on the field (and not with defensive and ST touchdowns). Yards are important because if you're a guru you need to be able to be dangerous on the entire field and show it with big plays and long drives... you can't count on a top D and short fields (although it helps). Nagy literally has 3 of best QBs the Bears have ever had on the team... all at once. It should be an absolute expectation AND only fair to Nagy and fair to the team to let him use whatever tools he has to crank up that offense and show what he can do.
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@dplank

Preach it brother preach it.

I'm excited about this season and I've got a positive attitude. Great things are going to happen and I sincerely believe that. My Fields jersey is sitting there in my closet waiting to go for Opening Day.

Now, at the end of this season, after Nagy has His Guy at QB and the OL is demonstrably better, but we still have that piss poor "Patterson up the middle" type predictable play calling that doesn't work, it's not like the guy is in my family or anything. But I wouldn't can him for the sake of canning him. Getting another coordinator to be HC just delays things another 2-3 years. If a NAME is out there, that's very interesting.

But we won't have that problem. We've got a 10 win playoff team on our hands assuming Fields takes over very early in the season. Bear Down.

This thing is ready to cook. The QB, the OL, hopefully new and improved DC. Piss on the strength of schedule. That uses last year's number to determine. Screw that.

Add to that the Packers are looking like the early days of Chernobyl.
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Moriarty wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 10:00 am
G08 wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:01 am
I don't give a shit about yards, honestly. Scoring/points are the only thing that matters.
From a "That's What Determines Who Wins" perspective, sure.
But from an "Evaluating How Good Your Offensive Side of the Ball Is" perspective, absolutely not.
I'm sure there are exceptions to the rule (2006 Bears come to mind), and nobody has says it's the end-all-be-all, but I'm bored so I'll engage:

2020 Top 5 Scoring Offenses
Packers (13th ranked defense)
Bills (16th ranked defense)
Buccaneers (8th ranked defense)
Titans (24th ranked defense)
Saints (5th ranked defense)

Seems like points per game correlates quite well to "how good your offensive side of the ball is", including an MVP player. Three of the top 5 scoring offenses had defenses that ranked 13th or worse.

2019 Top 5 Scoring Offenses
Ravens (3rd)
49ers (8th)
Saints (13th)
Buccaneers (29th)
Chiefs (7th)

Again, points per game correlates well, including an MVP player. And the Buccaneers had the 29th ranked defense :lol:

2018 Top 5 Scoring Offenses
Chiefs (24th)
Rams (20th)
Saints (14th)
Patriots (7th)
Colts (10th)

Again, same shit. Another MVP player. 24th ranked defense for the league's #1 offense; 20th for the leagues #2 offense.

2017 Top 5 Scoring Offenses
Rams (12th)
Patriots (5th)
Eagles (4th)
Saints (10th)
Jaguars (2nd)

Ditto, and yet another MVP player.
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How did they correlate to yards tho. I bet there’s a stronger correlation to scoring/yards than there is here to defense, which is pretty scattershot
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G08 wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 2:36 pm
Moriarty wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 10:00 am

From a "That's What Determines Who Wins" perspective, sure.
But from an "Evaluating How Good Your Offensive Side of the Ball Is" perspective, absolutely not.
I'm sure there are exceptions to the rule (2006 Bears come to mind), and nobody has says it's the end-all-be-all, but I'm bored so I'll engage:

2020 Top 5 Scoring Offenses
Packers (13th ranked defense)
Bills (16th ranked defense)
Buccaneers (8th ranked defense)
Titans (24th ranked defense)
Saints (5th ranked defense)

Seems like points per game correlates quite well to "how good your offensive side of the ball is", including an MVP player. Three of the top 5 scoring offenses had defenses that ranked 13th or worse.

2019 Top 5 Scoring Offenses
Ravens (3rd)
49ers (8th)
Saints (13th)
Buccaneers (29th)
Chiefs (7th)

Again, points per game correlates well, including an MVP player. And the Buccaneers had the 29th ranked defense :lol:

2018 Top 5 Scoring Offenses
Chiefs (24th)
Rams (20th)
Saints (14th)
Patriots (7th)
Colts (10th)

Again, same shit. Another MVP player. 24th ranked defense for the league's #1 offense; 20th for the leagues #2 offense.

2017 Top 5 Scoring Offenses
Rams (12th)
Patriots (5th)
Eagles (4th)
Saints (10th)
Jaguars (2nd)

Ditto, and yet another MVP player.
I have no idea what is going on here.

  • Most crucially, you've misunderstood what I said. I'm not saying "points scored has no relationship to how good an offense is". I'm saying "'I don't give a shit about yards, honestly. Scoring/points are the only thing that matters.' is a terribly incorrect philosophy, when it comes to rating on offense."
  • Then for the specific cases: In one instance (2020), you're pleased that the top 5 scoring offenses had defenses that were all over place, while saying that 2 things (I have no idea what 2, because you've only presented 2 quantities, and the offenses and defenses clearly don't) show a correlation. In another case (2017) the top 5 scoring offenses all had good defenses - which is distinctly different from the first case. But you're saying "ditto" as if somehow 2020 is just like everything else. Another year has 4/5 with good defenses and another has most of them in the middle. They're not very similar at all.
  • That aside, even if all the data in the 4 examples wasn't inconsistent, what does that have to do with anything? How would hypothetically showing that "Top Scoring Offenses usually have <good/bad/average/highly variable> Defenses" do anything towards proving that "points scored is the right way to measure offensive effectiveness and yards gained is garbage"??
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Even though it's the scoreboard that matters at the end, there's more to an offense than points.

Points - For obvious reasons.
Yards - Sustained drives gives our defense a break, tires out theirs and gives an indicator about the quality of our offense. If we can put together several sustained drives, then whatever we're doing is working.
Time Of Possession - Similar to yards. Give our defense a breather and keep theirs on the field.
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Moriarty wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 3:43 pm
G08 wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 2:36 pm

I'm sure there are exceptions to the rule (2006 Bears come to mind), and nobody has says it's the end-all-be-all, but I'm bored so I'll engage:

2020 Top 5 Scoring Offenses
Packers (13th ranked defense)
Bills (16th ranked defense)
Buccaneers (8th ranked defense)
Titans (24th ranked defense)
Saints (5th ranked defense)

Seems like points per game correlates quite well to "how good your offensive side of the ball is", including an MVP player. Three of the top 5 scoring offenses had defenses that ranked 13th or worse.

2019 Top 5 Scoring Offenses
Ravens (3rd)
49ers (8th)
Saints (13th)
Buccaneers (29th)
Chiefs (7th)

Again, points per game correlates well, including an MVP player. And the Buccaneers had the 29th ranked defense :lol:

2018 Top 5 Scoring Offenses
Chiefs (24th)
Rams (20th)
Saints (14th)
Patriots (7th)
Colts (10th)

Again, same shit. Another MVP player. 24th ranked defense for the league's #1 offense; 20th for the leagues #2 offense.

2017 Top 5 Scoring Offenses
Rams (12th)
Patriots (5th)
Eagles (4th)
Saints (10th)
Jaguars (2nd)

Ditto, and yet another MVP player.
I have no idea what is going on here.
My point was pretty straight forward... having an elite defense does not guarantee a top tier offense.


Do you have any stats/data which correlate yards and "how good your offensive side of the ball is"?

Minnesota, for example, was 4th in the NFL in yards in 2020, yet were 11th in the league in scoring. Are you trying to argue that they are better than the Packers, who were #1 in the league in scoring? Because I have no idea what's going on with that logic.
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G08 wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 4:14 pm
My point was pretty straight forward... having an elite defense does not guarantee a top tier offense.
Well...okay. No argument there.

But it also has very little to nothing to do with what we were discussing

Moriarty wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 10:00 am
G08 wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:01 am
I don't give a shit about yards, honestly. Scoring/points are the only thing that matters.
From a "That's What Determines Who Wins" perspective, sure.
But from an "Evaluating How Good Your Offensive Side of the Ball Is" perspective, absolutely not.
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We know that having an elite defense doesn't guarantee a top tier offense... this is a Bears page. :?

Of course yards matter. Clearly scoring defense and turnovers correlate more strongly to winning... and lessen the impact of yards. That's intuitive. But yards correlate highly with winning. Of course winning the score is tops. lol

Correlation of football stats to wins:

https://www.wibwnewsnow.com/numbers-gam ... -wins-nfl/
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Moriarty wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 4:27 pm
G08 wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 4:14 pm
My point was pretty straight forward... having an elite defense does not guarantee a top tier offense.
Well...okay. No argument there.

But it also has very little to nothing to do with what we were discussing

Moriarty wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 10:00 am

From a "That's What Determines Who Wins" perspective, sure.
But from an "Evaluating How Good Your Offensive Side of the Ball Is" perspective, absolutely not.
I'll re-ask:

Do you have any stats/data which correlate yards and "how good your offensive side of the ball is"?

Minnesota, for example, was 4th in the NFL in yards in 2020, yet were 11th in the league in scoring. Are you trying to argue that they are better than the Packers, who were #1 in the league in scoring but 5th in yards? Because I have no idea what's going on with that logic.

Some others:

Cardinals were 6th in yards, 13th in points.
Chargers were 9th in yards, 18th in points.

etc.
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IE wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 4:36 pm We know that having an elite defense doesn't guarantee a top tier offense... this is a Bears page. :?

Of course yards matter. Clearly scoring defense and turnovers correlate more strongly to winning... and lessen the impact of yards. That's intuitive. But yards correlate highly with winning. Of course winning the score is tops. lol

Correlation of football stats to wins:

https://www.wibwnewsnow.com/numbers-gam ... -wins-nfl/
Those were really interesting stats. I'd like to see more defensive stats like scoring defense, turnovers created by defense, rushing defense, and passing defense. I think that rushing defense, scoring defense, and turnovers created might have high coefficients.
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No idea where to put this...

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G08 wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 4:43 pm
Moriarty wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 4:27 pm

Well...okay. No argument there.

But it also has very little to nothing to do with what we were discussing


I'll re-ask:

Do you have any stats/data which correlate yards and "how good your offensive side of the ball is"?
That's almost impossible by definition. What would the objective measure of "how good your offensive side of the ball is" be?
Do you have any correlating points to "how good your offensive side of the ball is"?

IE posted some good data which suggests both are highly important.
Which does not support the "I don't give a shit about yards" philosophy you advocated.

G08 wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 4:43 pm
Minnesota, for example, was 4th in the NFL in yards in 2020, yet were 11th in the league in scoring. Are you trying to argue that they are better than the Packers, who were #1 in the league in scoring but 5th in yards? Because I have no idea what's going on with that logic.
"Yards do matter" and "Yards are the only important thing and points don't matter" are hardly the same.

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MIN was 4th in yards with 6292, while GB was 5th with 6224. In points GB had 509 (1st) vs 430 (11th) for MIN.
Without looking at anything else, common sense here tells you "Metric1 was virtually identical. Metric2 showed a sizeable advantage for GB. Unless Metric2 is completely worthless or negative value/correlation - which no one has actually suggested - GB seems to have been better.
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For a 'very close to home' example of why to not disregard yards, take a look at some team stats from the Great Mitch Trubisky Era


The 2 numbers that are most out of pattern (dissimilar to other years of their category) are 2018 OffPts and 2018 DefTOs

Now, according to OffPts, the offense was horrible for 3 years, with just 1 magically proficient year sandwiched in the middle.
According to OffYds, the offense was consistently bad across the board.

Which is right?
Why would they go from awful to very good to awful again?
What great offensive weapons did they have in 2018 that they didn't have in any of the others?
Exactly.
What they did have in 2018 that they didn't in any of the others was an insane number of turnovers, giving them lots of short fields and tired defenses to face.

OffPts tells the story of the 2018 offense's competence very poorly, because it is so influenced by turnovers that didn't come from the offense.
OffYds tells the story of the 2018 offense's competence much more accurately. The excessive turnovers didn't allow them to rack up tons more yardage.
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Moriarty wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 3:04 pm
G08 wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 4:43 pm

I'll re-ask:

Do you have any stats/data which correlate yards and "how good your offensive side of the ball is"?
That's almost impossible by definition. What would the objective measure of "how good your offensive side of the ball is" be?
Do you have any correlating points to "how good your offensive side of the ball is"?
:lol:

Those are your words!
Moriarty wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 10:00 am
G08 wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:01 am
I don't give a shit about yards, honestly. Scoring/points are the only thing that matters.
From a "That's What Determines Who Wins" perspective, sure.
But from an "Evaluating How Good Your Offensive Side of the Ball Is" perspective, absolutely not.
When I'm looking at how good the offensive side of the ball is, I'm valuing points over yards. 99 times out of 100 that will portend just how good of an offense you have. I've already detailed how having an elite defense doesn't play a significant role in points scored on offense.
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G08 wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 5:13 pm
Moriarty wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 3:04 pm

That's almost impossible by definition. What would the objective measure of "how good your offensive side of the ball is" be?
Do you have any correlating points to "how good your offensive side of the ball is"?
:lol:

Those are your words!

No, that's a few of my words combined with some of your words to make something completely different.

Calling it "my words" is about as accurate and honest as calling this interview "his own words"




At no point did I ever say or imply that I had a True Objective Metric and correlations to it.
That doesn't even make any sense.
If there was a True Objective Metric of Offensive Effectiveness, there'd be no point in debating how much to value yards or points - you'd just go straight to using the True Objective Metric of Offensive Effectiveness.
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G08 wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 5:13 pm I've already detailed how having an elite defense doesn't play a significant role in points scored on offense.
1) I just gave a clear, familiar example of how an elite defense DID play a significant role in points scored on offense.

2) No, you didn't.
You gave examples showing that having an elite defense doesn't guarantee having an elite offensive points output.
That's not at all the same thing as showing that having an elite defense doesn't significantly affect offensive points output.
If you don't understand the difference, you're in way over your head here.
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Moriarty wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 9:46 am
G08 wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 5:13 pm I've already detailed how having an elite defense doesn't play a significant role in points scored on offense.
1) I just gave a clear, familiar example of how an elite defense DID play a significant role in points scored on offense.

2) No, you didn't.
You gave examples showing that having an elite defense doesn't guarantee having an elite offensive points output.
That's not at all the same thing as showing that having an elite defense doesn't significantly affect offensive points output.
If you don't understand the difference, you're in way over your head here.
Moriarty wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 4:27 pm
G08 wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 4:14 pm
My point was pretty straight forward... having an elite defense does not guarantee a top tier offense.
Well...okay. No argument there.
You're a trip, man :lol:

The top 10 defenses of 2020, 1-10, with their offensive ranking presented:

22
7
25
5
15
27
3
31
6

Just stop yourself.

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Moriarty wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 9:46 am
G08 wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 5:13 pm I've already detailed how having an elite defense doesn't play a significant role in points scored on offense.
1) I just gave a clear, familiar example of how an elite defense DID play a significant role in points scored on offense.

2) No, you didn't.
You gave examples showing that having an elite defense doesn't guarantee having an elite offensive points output.
That's not at all the same thing as showing that having an elite defense doesn't significantly affect offensive points output.
If you don't understand the difference, you're in way over your head here.
Yeah, but Mitch supporters....

He was on his way to becoming Drew Brees if only we had stuck with him until 2027.
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The Marshall Plan wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 10:59 am
Moriarty wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 9:46 am

1) I just gave a clear, familiar example of how an elite defense DID play a significant role in points scored on offense.

2) No, you didn't.
You gave examples showing that having an elite defense doesn't guarantee having an elite offensive points output.
That's not at all the same thing as showing that having an elite defense doesn't significantly affect offensive points output.
If you don't understand the difference, you're in way over your head here.
Yeah, but Mitch supporters....

He was on his way to becoming Drew Brees if only we had stuck with him until 2027.
You should email/tweet Adam Jahns and see if you can get on his podcast to discuss, he made the same comparison.
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G08 wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 10:46 am
Moriarty wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 9:46 am

1) I just gave a clear, familiar example of how an elite defense DID play a significant role in points scored on offense.

2) No, you didn't.
You gave examples showing that having an elite defense doesn't guarantee having an elite offensive points output.
That's not at all the same thing as showing that having an elite defense doesn't significantly affect offensive points output.
If you don't understand the difference, you're in way over your head here.
Moriarty wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 4:27 pm

Well...okay. No argument there.
You're a trip, man :lol:

The top 10 defenses of 2020, 1-10, with their offensive ranking presented:

22
7
25
5
15
27
3
31
6

Just stop yourself.
Thank you for promptly confirming my hypothesis that you're unable to see the significant difference between the two things, even after it's been pointed out to you.

You're still pushing the same true, but irrelevant, premise from before.

Since there's nowhere else to go with the conversation until you can see your error, and I have extremely little hope of you both seeing & admitting it at this point, I will be moving on.
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Moriarty wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 11:29 am
G08 wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 10:46 am



You're a trip, man :lol:

The top 10 defenses of 2020, 1-10, with their offensive ranking presented:

22
7
25
5
15
27
3
31
6

Just stop yourself.
Thank you for promptly confirming my hypothesis that you're unable to see the significant difference between the two things, even after it's been pointed out to you.

You're still pushing the same true, but irrelevant, premise from before.

Since there's nowhere else to go with the conversation until you can see your error, and I have extremely little hope of you both seeing & admitting it at this point, I will be moving on.
You literally said "no argument there" yesterday, and today are on a different tilt. It's bizarre to say the least.

Yes, move on. Tell the other Moriarty to move on as well :lol:

Thank you.
Last edited by G08 on Thu Jun 17, 2021 11:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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G08 wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 11:05 am
The Marshall Plan wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 10:59 am

Yeah, but Mitch supporters....

He was on his way to becoming Drew Brees if only we had stuck with him until 2027.
You should email/tweet Adam Jahns and see if you can get on his podcast to discuss, he made the same comparison.
Who cares about Adam Jahns? Who died and made him the Arbiter Of Truth?

Do you believe that Ryan Pace made a massive mistake by not picking up Mitch's option and letting him walk in free agency?
Are 30 other NFL GMs and HCs wrong? They ALL missed it? Even after four years of watching Mitch play.

In an offseason where QBs are going for a premium. Even Sam Darnold was traded for multiple draft choices. Mitch signs a 1 year deal with Buffalo for $2.5M.

It's you and Adam Jahns standing out in the street with the cardboard sign about how the Earth is flat. And 100s of people in the NFL between GMs, coaches and scouts along with millions of fans are all wrong.

Everyone is wrong but you and Adam Jahns. Got it.
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The Marshall Plan wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 11:53 am
G08 wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 11:05 am

You should email/tweet Adam Jahns and see if you can get on his podcast to discuss, he made the same comparison.
Who cares about Adam Jahns? Who died and made him the Arbiter Of Truth?
*shrug* It gives you another venue to voice your opinion.
The Marshall Plan wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 11:53 am Do you believe that Ryan Pace made a massive mistake by not picking up Mitch's option and letting him walk in free agency?
Massive mistake? No. I don't even think he made a minor mistake. Mitch didn't fit what Nagy is trying to accomplish here and it was time to move on.
The Marshall Plan wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 11:53 am Are 30 other NFL GMs and HCs wrong? They ALL missed it? Even after four years of watching Mitch play.
Depends who you ask, Buffalo wanted him and according to their GM other teams did as well, but who really knows?
The Marshall Plan wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 11:53 am It's you and Adam Jahns standing out in the street with the cardboard sign about how the Earth is flat. And 100s of people in the NFL between GMs, coaches and scouts along with millions of fans are all wrong.

Everyone is wrong but you and Adam Jahns. Got it.
Could it be an erasable whiteboard sign?
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