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RichH55 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 09, 2021 4:02 pm

IE wrote: ↑Wed Jun 09, 2021 3:43 pm

Because the assumption that he can't learn enough during the learning time he has now, will benefit from watching someone else learn by doing but HE can't learn by doing ... is a pretty bad one.

And the swimming analogy is really even worse.

Why wouldn't he know the playbook better in Week 6 than Week 1? Just curious - It's just more time to get ready

Why wouldn't getting some time to observe the actual nuts and bolts of everything in real games help?

He can learn by doing - and will learn by doing (at some point) - but the larger his base knowledge before that - the better IMHO.

It's going to be a bit of a whirlwind for ANY rookie - going from late April draft to playing - Everything is new - Everything (*). Entry into the facilities, housing market, etc. etc. Great and Small - but it all adds up

(*) Some of this might have been an advantage for Trevor Lawrence since he has basically known that he was going to Jacksonville since what? January ? You can do things like - get your housing set up earlier, etc - If Jacksonville didnt get him a playbook the day after Urban was hired , then they don't know what they are doing IMHO

Yogi da Bear wrote: ↑Wed Jun 09, 2021 4:09 pm

dplank wrote: ↑Wed Jun 09, 2021 8:17 am This is truly awful. There is absolutely, positively, beyond any shadow of a doubt NO FRIGGIN WAY that franchise would knowingly put their franchise rookie QB's development at risk just to draw some extra fans in the first few weeks of the season. NO. WAY. This is one of those "you've only thought a half inch deep" theories, if you just take a minute to think a tiny bit deeper you'll see how absolutely wrong this is. Did they bring in Tebow for fans? Yes. Would they knowingly risk the future of their franchise for more early season ticket sales? Of course not. They just proved this when they purposely tanked an entire season last year to get him, why would they turn around and risk his (according to your theory) health and impede his development as a player just for a few weeks to start the season when they could ease him in to the lineup as you are suggesting with Fields?

And yet this is EXACTLY what the Texans under Dom Capers did with David Carr in his rookie season. Even worse, it was the Texans inaugural season so he was playing behind a patchwork line that included two rookies and three castoffs from other teams that those other teams didn't protect in the expansion draft. It also included a rookie RB, FB, WR, and TE all starting. The only veteran skill position player they started was Corey Bradford, a fifth rounder claimed from the Packers. They had veteran QBs Tony Banks and Michael Quinn on their roster so they could have gone in another direction. Instead they started Carr and although they beat Dallas opening day, Carr was sacked six times that game and forced to run another four times and threw for only 145 yards. For the season he was sacked 76 times! An NFL record. He also has the record for the third most sacks in a season with 68.

So don't tell me that there's absolutely no friggin' way that a team would put their #1 pick QB at risk by starting him opening day, when it has ACTUALLY happened.

Yogi da Bear wrote: ↑Wed Jun 09, 2021 4:10 pm

IE wrote: ↑Wed Jun 09, 2021 3:43 pm

Because the assumption that he can't learn enough during the learning time he has now, will benefit from watching someone else learn by doing but HE can't learn by doing ... is a pretty bad one.

And the swimming analogy is really even worse.

Except that BOTH Darnold and Mahomes have said otherwise, and I've already quoted them both in this thread as to that fact.

dplank wrote: ↑Wed Jun 09, 2021 5:18 pm

Yogi da Bear wrote: ↑Wed Jun 09, 2021 4:09 pm

And yet this is EXACTLY what the Texans under Dom Capers did with David Carr in his rookie season. Even worse, it was the Texans inaugural season so he was playing behind a patchwork line that included two rookies and three castoffs from other teams that those other teams didn't protect in the expansion draft. It also included a rookie RB, FB, WR, and TE all starting. The only veteran skill position player they started was Corey Bradford, a fifth rounder claimed from the Packers. They had veteran QBs Tony Banks and Michael Quinn on their roster so they could have gone in another direction. Instead they started Carr and although they beat Dallas opening day, Carr was sacked six times that game and forced to run another four times and threw for only 145 yards. For the season he was sacked 76 times! An NFL record. He also has the record for the third most sacks in a season with 68.

So don't tell me that there's absolutely no friggin' way that a team would put their #1 pick QB at risk by starting him opening day, when it has ACTUALLY happened.

Again you misunderstood my point. I’m not saying that didn’t happen to Carr, I’m saying there’s no way that Capers thought “Well fuck it, we might ruin the kid but we needs butts in the stands”. That’s ludicrous. The more obvious answer is he thought he’d learn better by playing and didn’t think he’d get destroyed out there - or of course he wouldn’t have done it. The fact that he was wrong doesn’t refute this specific point one bit. Are you able to follow the logic tree here?

AZ_Bearfan wrote: ↑Wed Jun 09, 2021 10:51 pm

AZ_Bearfan wrote: ↑Wed Jun 09, 2021 10:51 pm

IE wrote: ↑Thu Jun 10, 2021 6:53 am

AZ_Bearfan wrote: ↑Wed Jun 09, 2021 10:51 pm

Think Trey Lance is demonstrating that kind of leadership at this point? All rookies are not the same. Hasty generalization and appeals to common sense are fallacious arguments.

UOK wrote: ↑Thu Jun 10, 2021 10:04 am 1: Fields got signed

UOK wrote: ↑Thu Jun 10, 2021 10:04 am 1: Fields got signed

RichH55 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:46 am What else you going on besides common sense and hasty generalization - You been privy to Fields in the Meeting Rooms or Practices?!?!?

If so - would love to hear that

Yogi da Bear wrote: ↑Thu Jun 10, 2021 8:40 am Trey Lance was the biggest blunder of the draft. Can't believe the Niners gave up three first rounders for him. I would have NOT been at all happy if we had traded up to #11 for Lance. The guy has almost no experience, and what he does have, he had in basically a high school offense. I can't wait to see that QB run up the middle in the NFL.



When you become roadkill after stinking up the joint.

The Marshall Plan wrote: ↑Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:02 pm

Yogi da Bear wrote: ↑Thu Jun 10, 2021 8:40 am Trey Lance was the biggest blunder of the draft. Can't believe the Niners gave up three first rounders for him. I would have NOT been at all happy if we had traded up to #11 for Lance. The guy has almost no experience, and what he does have, he had in basically a high school offense. I can't wait to see that QB run up the middle in the NFL.



When you become roadkill after stinking up the joint.

I was thinking Pitts was the worst pick for the high firsts, but I totally forgot about the Lance trade. At least Atlanta held onto their picks.

RichH55 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 10, 2021 3:14 pm

The Marshall Plan wrote: ↑Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:02 pm

I was thinking Pitts was the worst pick for the high firsts, but I totally forgot about the Lance trade. At least Atlanta held onto their picks.

Any chance - at all - this might just be jumping the gun - just a touch?

Maybe?

The Marshall Plan wrote: ↑Thu Jun 10, 2021 5:45 pm

RichH55 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 10, 2021 3:14 pm

Any chance - at all - this might just be jumping the gun - just a touch?

Maybe?

Who would Lance have to perform as to be worth 3 firsts? Watson? Mahomes?

Are you saying he's going to be at that level?

I would absolutely be comfortable with the Bears starting Fields ….. purely hinged to one simple thing — Does Fields look ready?

That’s something I’ve talked about quite a bit since he was drafted. In 2017, most (including myself) were more focused on Mitchell Trubisky looking better than Mike Glennon, rather than actually looking ready to start an NFL regular season game. In reviewing my overall evaluation of Trubisky and what went wrong, that stands at the top of the list.

Fields doesn’t need to just be better than Andy Dalton, he needs to look like he’s an NFL quarterback. Obviously all rookies will struggle in certain areas, but for me to feel comfortable with Fields starting, I want to see most of what I saw from him at Ohio State. A strong presence on the field, command of the huddle (this will be new for him), making the proper reads and him understanding (to a certain degree) what defenses are throwing at him top the list for me. The latter is something that Trubisky still struggles with and speaks to a lack of mental development.

All in all, I believe the Bears got the full package with Fields. He’s a strong-armed, athletic quarterback that is extremely focused and very smart. I personally believe he’ll be ready Week 1 (although I don’t believe he’ll start Week 1), but he still needs to pass the eye test. The offensive line will play a part in that, but the mental development is my biggest key in comfort with Fields.

RichH55 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 10, 2021 6:44 pm

The Marshall Plan wrote: ↑Thu Jun 10, 2021 5:45 pm

Who would Lance have to perform as to be worth 3 firsts? Watson? Mahomes?

Are you saying he's going to be at that level?

Well I guess my main point is that maybe Day 2 of OTAs might be too early to tell anything?

But wouldn't that have been true if they picked Fields too? Since everyone has Fields as a no doubt HOFer seemingly - probably smarter!

Do you want to fold it into the entirety of the 49ers game plan - Ok. They did last year have an additional 1st Round pick (though nothing in Rounds 2/3 from what I see)

Short and sweet answer - Any QB they drafted there after the trade up needs to be quite good to justify the pick and trade up

Maholmes level though? Of course not. He has a chance to be the greatest of all time. If Trey Lance is somehow the 10th best QB ever - he probably falls short of Maholmes


In looking over the 49ers roster - It's pretty good. That Trey Sermon pick was an absolute steal. OL is good, maybe the best TE in the game? Aiyuk needs to show more but I like Deebo - Pro Bowl FB too

Defense has potentially monster DL - I could see corner being an issue especially if Verrett doesnt stay healthy

Might be able to recoup a draft pick for Jimmy G - which I think probably plays into this mindset

Team starts to get expensive after the 2022 season - thats when they have decisions to make - having a guy on a Rookie Contract would considerably help that


But yes - any time you draft a QB Top 15 its a big thing for the team and a Trade Up only makes its a tougher proposition

IE wrote: ↑Fri Jun 11, 2021 6:58 am Plank - you were Olineman, right? In your experience, how can the quarterback impact the play of the Oline? Of course anyone else with significant Oline experience can chime in too (I don't think that includes high school....lol).

Getting right to the point, I've said a few times that I believe the Oline could actually perform better when Fields gets in the game. The thinking is his athleticism will buy them *just a little* more time protecting him, and his arm and legs will help keep the D more honest, and then on top of that the simple emotional rush and excitement over "getting on with the future - an expected bright future" could have a real impact on their intensity, focus, and such.

Am I wrong? The reason I'm asking is because several have mentioned "Oline showing readiness" as an entrance criteria for Fields, and I see it as potentially a bit the opposite.

Atkins&Rebel wrote: ↑Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:22 am

IE wrote: ↑Fri Jun 11, 2021 6:58 am Plank - you were Olineman, right? In your experience, how can the quarterback impact the play of the Oline? Of course anyone else with significant Oline experience can chime in too (I don't think that includes high school....lol).

Getting right to the point, I've said a few times that I believe the Oline could actually perform better when Fields gets in the game. The thinking is his athleticism will buy them *just a little* more time protecting him, and his arm and legs will help keep the D more honest, and then on top of that the simple emotional rush and excitement over "getting on with the future - an expected bright future" could have a real impact on their intensity, focus, and such.

Am I wrong? The reason I'm asking is because several have mentioned "Oline showing readiness" as an entrance criteria for Fields, and I see it as potentially a bit the opposite.

As an O lineman I can say the the QB can do a lot to hurt or help the O line
-he can use a different cadence and not tell the O line beforehand (not go on a different hut, but vary the way he says hut, like a hard count)
-he can roll into a blocked D lineman and get sacked because he was stupid
-he can call the wrong protection at the line and make the O line look bad
-he can fail to recognize that D lineman X is eating O lineman Y's lunch and not adjust by stepping up away from pressure or trying to get rid of the ball on time/early
-This one is hard because its the O line's job to block. But when there is a simple overmatch, the QB should adjust where he sets up and realize that there is a violent expiration time on every play.
-He can simply hold the ball too long. I touched on this above, but blocking is like covering for DB's. Given enough time, Coverage and blocking will break down.
-On running plays, he can simply pick the wrong hole. Defenses will stack at certain points, and the QB needs to recognize that and adjust the run to the right spot.