Nagy optimism

For all things Chicago Bears

Moderator: wab

User avatar
IE
Hall of Famer
Posts: 12500
Joined: Mon Nov 03, 2008 8:46 am
Location: Plymouth, MI
Has thanked: 523 times
Been thanked: 700 times
Contact:

Fonz couldn't do it either.

2023 Chicago Bears... emerging from a long hibernation, and hungry!
HurricaneBear
Head Coach
Posts: 2160
Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2012 6:56 am
Has thanked: 1845 times
Been thanked: 348 times

dplank wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 8:41 am
HurricaneBear wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 7:41 am How does he have the players now?
JMO, but look comparatively to what he's had since he's been our HC here.

Our OL should be at least as good as the 2018 OL, with potential to be much better in the run game. And will certainly be better than the line we fielded in 2019 and 2020.

Our RB's went from Howard/Cohen to Monty/Cohen/Williams - that's a net improvement, Howard wasn't a good fit and Monty is a stud.

Our WR's went from ARob coming off an ACL, Gabriel, Miller, as a rookie, Bellamy to ARob fully healthy, Mooney, Goodwin/Byrd for legit deep threats, Miller is WR5 on this team and he's a 3rd year player instead of a rookie. - Improvement

Our TE's went from Trey Burton and Adam Shaheen to Jimmy Graham and Cole Kmet - big improvement

Our QB's went from Mitch/Daniel to Fields/Dalton - massive, massive improvement

Not just starters either, but our depth is much better now than it was. Miller is WR5 instead of WR3, Josh friggin Bellamy was WR4 on that 2018 team. Damien Williams can start if Monty goes down and we don't have to play a gadget player out of position. Dalton is better than either Mitch or Daniel and I see Dalton as the fall back option to Fields. I'd take either Graham or Kmet over either Burton or Shaheen. I dunno, I'm bullish on the offense.
I think we agree on alot, but disagree on if it's been enough. Being better than the crap we've been trotting out is a necessary step but doesn't mean the task is complete. There's still alot more to do to bring this offense's talent to where it needs to be imo.

I agree our OL is improved, not ready to say its as good as 2018 yet tho. I will give you I have alot of hope for the OL to be the one we roll with moving forward or at minimum 3 of the pieces being the answers to their position. Questions still remain about Musitpher(who I like), Jenkins(whom I love), and Ifedi(I don't really like).

I've agreed on Monty being a legit player. I have hope for Williams but hes a running back and just took a year off and running backs easily can fall off a cliff. Cohen in 2018 is better than 2021 post ACL surgery Cohen, although I don't like Cohen and think he's overrated so theres that too. Id call this one a wash or a slight edge for this years group.

Arob in 2021 is better than Arob in 2018. I think Gabriel in 2018 was a better player than Mooney right now and Gabriel was severely underrated here, although I do hope Mooney will be clearly the better player after this season. Miller as a rookie performed pretty well and has been declining since. Goodwin/Byrd is FINALLY the additional speed i've been DIEING for, but both players are nothing special. I'd take the 2018 WR over the 2021 WR by a little bit.

I agree the TE room is clearly better now. I fucking hated Burton and Shaheen was a bust. Graham is old but reliable and consistent and Kmet has alot of potential. But Kmet HAS to improve or that room ends up being a glaring hole in 2022.

QB room is clearly better now, but still not where it needs to be. Dalton/Foles are journeymen and I think Fields has HoF potential but he is a rookie. If Nagy stubbornly sticks with Dalton this ends up being much closer to a wash vs 2018 then if he works Fields in.

So clearly this team is moving in the right direction!! BUT, I'm not saying this offense is where it needs to be, or that Nagy has the pieces he needs for his offense to work correctly. There are a TON of questions on this team that all have to work out correctly for this offense to have significantly improved. I don't disagree, as you can see above, that the team has improved its talent on offense. Where I believe we disagree is i'm not comparing the team to the crap we've trotted out in the past. I'm comparing it to other teams in the league. This offense is still lacking in talent and I want a top 5-10 offense year in and year out. To do that we need to continue to add pieces(another starting quality tackle, another WR or 2, another TE) and our question mark players(Mustipher, Jenkins, Ifedi, Daniels to a degree, Cohen, Mooney, Kmet, Goodwin/Byrd, and the QBs) all need to work out.

What if Mustipher was an undrafted 1 hit wonder, and Jenkins can't play the Left side? What if Mooney and Kmet regress? People here have posted before showing the regression of offensive skill players here the last few years so it is definitely possible. If even a couple of those happen this offense suddenly looses alot of its power and becomes a bum slayer again. I dont want a bum slaying offense. I want an offense that puts fear into the top Ds in the league. Fields wont be able to do it all by himself unfortunately
User avatar
IE
Hall of Famer
Posts: 12500
Joined: Mon Nov 03, 2008 8:46 am
Location: Plymouth, MI
Has thanked: 523 times
Been thanked: 700 times
Contact:

What if Mustipher was an undrafted 1 hit wonder, and Jenkins can't play the Left side? What if Mooney and Kmet regress? People here have posted before showing the regression of offensive skill players here the last few years so it is definitely possible. If even a couple of those happen this offense suddenly looses alot of its power and becomes a bum slayer again. I dont want a bum slaying offense. I want an offense that puts fear into the top Ds in the league. Fields wont be able to do it all by himself unfortunately
As you know, it won't be digital.

Mustipher seems likely to play at least as well as he did toward the end of the year especially it is safe to say that with an offseason of practice and all that will bring for him as the starter. When he was in there, Monty's production was dramatically better - even in losses. Overlay Mustipher's presence in the game with Monty's performance... it is compelling. Even IF he craters (which is unlikely), Whitehair is the option, and that should be fine with Bars stepping back in at RG next to Ifedi where they played fairly well last year. Jenkins WILL almost certainly have a few struggles - it is almost inevitable. But although he'll have more penalties than Leno in '18 (who was immaculate, if not always effective), Jenkins will also have a huge impact in terms of what he CAN do. He's going to be force that Bear opponents are not used to seeing from the Bears. I personally think Pace is going to bring in an experienced LT backup just in case. But I expect that Jenkins will be an overall big net positive over anything we've seen at LT for the Bears in a long time. And then the run game, as you also know, is more than just the backs. It is the Oline & this oline is being retooled to be better and nastier in the run game. There's good depth and youth on the Oline. You never "know for sure" til the games are played. But there seems to be far more room for optimism based on legit changes from last year than unlikely pessimism.

Moving beyond bum slaying has to be a KPI for Nagy this year. He HAS to beat good teams by scoring to keep his job, IMO. And IMO he will because Pace has set it up for him. Unless he's actually bad and in that case we'll find out & he'll be gone next year with some new young offensive guru HC to take on the world with Fields.

So I'm optimistic either with or without Nagy... feels good.
2023 Chicago Bears... emerging from a long hibernation, and hungry!
User avatar
wab
Mod
Posts: 29805
Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2008 12:49 pm
Has thanked: 127 times
Been thanked: 1956 times

I think Gabriel in 2018 was a better player than Mooney right now and Gabriel was severely underrated here
This feels backwards...

Statistically speaking, 2018 Gabriel is nearly identical to 2020 Mooney, but Mooney did it in 9 games to Gabriel's 11. I mean they are almost number to number, with the exception of TDs - Gabriel had 2 and Mooney had 4.

And Mooney did that as a rookie, whereas Gabriel was in his 5th year.
User avatar
AZ_Bearfan
MVP
Posts: 1491
Joined: Thu Apr 16, 2009 6:49 pm
Location: Mesa, AZ
Has thanked: 131 times
Been thanked: 77 times

What Mooney did as a rookie with no training camp and no time to work with the QB's was astounding. I'm expecting a huge jump from him this season.
Image
HurricaneBear
Head Coach
Posts: 2160
Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2012 6:56 am
Has thanked: 1845 times
Been thanked: 348 times

wab wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 10:29 am
I think Gabriel in 2018 was a better player than Mooney right now and Gabriel was severely underrated here
This feels backwards...

Statistically speaking, 2018 Gabriel is nearly identical to 2020 Mooney, but Mooney did it in 9 games to Gabriel's 11. I mean they are almost number to number, with the exception of TDs - Gabriel had 2 and Mooney had 4.

And Mooney did that as a rookie, whereas Gabriel was in his 5th year.
First, because I get the feeling I need to clear it up, the point of my post was that despite the good done this offseason, theres still a long ways to go on the offensive side of the ball. I LOVE the moves the team made. I have been a bigger Nagy and Pace fan then most posters on this board. But there is still a lot to do to get to being a top offense. And theres ALOT of questions about the offense as it right now.

And I also want to make it clear - I like Mooney. Alot. I think he can be our number 1 in a year or two if need be. However, he is right now a 2nd year guy who could easily disappear this coming year. Cam Meredith is an easy quick example of a guy people around here were ready to crown after one season.

As for Mooney vs 2018 Gabriel - who do you think opposing D's feared and game planned against more throughout both of those seasons? Gabriel hands down imo
User avatar
The Marshall Plan
Hall of Famer
Posts: 8411
Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2014 11:47 am
Location: Parts Unknown
Has thanked: 909 times
Been thanked: 1277 times

RustinFields wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 9:00 am
G08 wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 8:19 am

:lol:

It's the dying days of the Pro-Trubisky / Anti-Trubisky movement. It's like a bowel movement that likely won't move until Training Camp starts.
It's the early days of the revisionist history movement.
I have a feeling he's just getting warmed up. We're due for another term paper on how Mitch = Brees. Mitch just needed another half decade and it would've happened.

Then apparently Nagy taught Fangio everything he knows about defense and deserves equal credit for a generational defense that drove the 12-4 record. (Just ignore how the Bears are .500 for two straight years since Fangio left.)

The sad thing is that wab kinda agrees with him. Part of that is he's bailing out his buddy who made the Bears commentary equivalent of the Germans bombing Pearl Harbor without the humorous spin.

My guess is that Mitch's Bitches are in denial that their boy was a disaster and for whatever reason they can't admit it. Since they've died on Mitch Hill, the remnants of that movement are now on Nagy Hill and will do anything to defend it.

Like wouldn't The Tell that Mitch was done be when people cheered that Nick Foles got put in the game?
Image
User avatar
IE
Hall of Famer
Posts: 12500
Joined: Mon Nov 03, 2008 8:46 am
Location: Plymouth, MI
Has thanked: 523 times
Been thanked: 700 times
Contact:

Gabriel was the deep threat the Bears needed. I think the Bears destroyed Gabriel by putting him in contested ball situations instead of using his speed... which they couldn't do because of long ball aim. So they turned him into a possession receiver, it was jump ball city for Gabriel and I think it ruined him. Same kind of shit we've seen with Cohen, making him run those curls and leap for catches in coverage. I've been calling it "jump balls to midgets" for a few years now.

Hopefully it was the QB and not Nagy, or Mooney isn't long for this world.
2023 Chicago Bears... emerging from a long hibernation, and hungry!
User avatar
Boris13c
Hall of Famer
Posts: 15958
Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2008 11:30 am
Location: The Bear Nebula
Has thanked: 38 times
Been thanked: 103 times

I guess I'm more on the pissed at Nagy side of things ... I was happy the Bears got him and his rookie season as a head coach was more than anyone expected ... I was excited for the years ahead

and then .......

let's just say things did not go well and not go off on a rant ... opportunities were certainly missed and rather than growth and progression we got chaos and regression ... not all of it was Nagy's fault, but he is the guy in charge so has to accept the responsibility ... he did not get the most from his team because he seemed to not know how to use what he had ... the key to successful coaching is taking the players you have and putting them in the best situation for success ... I don't think Nagy did that very well

Mikefive wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 8:48 am I think an important light came on for Nagy when he finally recognized that doing what he wanted to do was a lower priority than doing what his players could do best. But based on his retaking playcalling, I also think that Nagy is going to go right back to what he wants to do now that Dalton and Fields are here and his OL should be at least intact. It will certainly help if he can blend the two instead of playing either-or.
I hope that light did come on for him ... being creative is what got him his first year success, but then being creative morphed into Gadget McGoo and failure was the result ... so him learning how to best use his players without also being a clown show is key to his longevity in Chicago and success of the team

maybe with Patterson now gone he'll have a slap of sanity hit him
"Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things."
George Carlin
User avatar
G08
Hall of Famer
Posts: 20555
Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2008 12:34 pm
Location: Football Hell
Has thanked: 209 times
Been thanked: 753 times

RustinFields wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 8:46 am
G08 wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 7:41 am

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't recall guys frequently getting killed on short routes...
You really dont remember all the short routes where dudes had to stop and leap as high as they could and got lit up? You dont remember the game last season where Mooney got injured that started with him getting lit up in the flat doing exactly that?

It's why I'm convinced that Nagy never tried Gabriel in the slot and stubbornly kept him outside.
Maybe I'm hung up on the hyperbole of "frequently getting killed". I remember a ton more curls, flats, crossers etc that were completed and nobody was killed, let alone hit moderately hard.

I do recall Trubisky missing Mooney on the sideline, high, and he was undercut and landed pretty hard. I remember him throwing behind Ted Ginn on a 4th down but he didn't get hit because of the inaccuracy.

I dunno, I'm struggling to think of examples where he threw an inaccurate ball and the receiver got decked. Not a lot of "OHH he got smoked" moments, first one that comes to mind was Adrian Amos knocking Darnell Mooney into oblivion, but that wasn't due to an errant pass.
9 PLAYOFF APPEARANCES IN THE PAST 35 SEASONS

User avatar
The Marshall Plan
Hall of Famer
Posts: 8411
Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2014 11:47 am
Location: Parts Unknown
Has thanked: 909 times
Been thanked: 1277 times

Enjoy....

Image
User avatar
wab
Mod
Posts: 29805
Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2008 12:49 pm
Has thanked: 127 times
Been thanked: 1956 times

The Marshall Plan wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 10:54 am
RustinFields wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 9:00 am

It's the early days of the revisionist history movement.
I have a feeling he's just getting warmed up. We're due for another term paper on how Mitch = Brees. Mitch just needed another half decade and it would've happened.

Then apparently Nagy taught Fangio everything he knows about defense and deserves equal credit for a generational defense that drove the 12-4 record. (Just ignore how the Bears are .500 for two straight years since Fangio left.)

The sad thing is that wab kinda agrees with him. Part of that is he's bailing out his buddy who made the Bears commentary equivalent of the Germans bombing Pearl Harbor without the humorous spin.

My guess is that Mitch's Bitches are in denial that their boy was a disaster and for whatever reason they can't admit it. Since they've died on Mitch Hill, the remnants of that movement are now on Nagy Hill and will do anything to defend it.

Like wouldn't The Tell that Mitch was done be when people cheered that Nick Foles got put in the game?
I'm not entirely sure what your deal is. I simply pointed out the offense did exactly what they were supposed to do. I simultaneously "kinda agreed" with points you both made without even mentioning Mitch.

If you'd like to continue to take not-so-subtle pot shots at me, we should probably take that discussion to PM.
User avatar
Yogi da Bear
Head Coach
Posts: 2499
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2018 4:43 pm
Has thanked: 208 times
Been thanked: 359 times

RustinFields wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 8:46 am You really dont remember all the short routes where dudes had to stop and leap as high as they could and got lit up? You dont remember the game last season where Mooney got injured that started with him getting lit up in the flat doing exactly that?

It's why I'm convinced that Nagy never tried Gabriel in the slot and stubbornly kept him outside.
Um, Mooney didn't get injured in the flat. It was a flat pass, but Mooney busted through three tacklers and got hit, by what I thought and still think, was a late hit out of bounds, ten yards down the field by Adrian Amos. There was nothing wrong with Trubisky's pass that caused him to get injured.

User avatar
IE
Hall of Famer
Posts: 12500
Joined: Mon Nov 03, 2008 8:46 am
Location: Plymouth, MI
Has thanked: 523 times
Been thanked: 700 times
Contact:

The Marshall Plan wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 12:18 pm Enjoy....

That made my eyes burn. Holy mother of... we spent 3 years watching that, and it was like Groundhog Day Bad Hell over & over & over again.

Let me say this... the guy may not be technically *wrong* when he points out the nuances of Mitch's bad mechanics and footwork - but that is not WHY he failed and it is not something that can be fixed. In a lifetime, a fish cannot learn to ride a bicycle. THAT is the problem. Mitch is not an NFL QB. He can't do it. He could never do it consistently because he's not natural. Things that aren't natural can't be made to come natural. End of story.

A natural QB can make those throws even with imperfect mechanics. A natural QB hits many of those if not most of those plays. Foles is actually very much a natural QB. He just has some clear physical limitations that require he operate behind a pretty good Oline, and he doesn't have the athleticism to help the Oline out. A bad combination on the Bears last year. But going forward Foles might be a pretty good backup to keep around as this young Oline comes together.

All the bad rookie coach blunders and past run aversion aside, this video shows why I'm optimistic about Nagy.
2023 Chicago Bears... emerging from a long hibernation, and hungry!
User avatar
The Marshall Plan
Hall of Famer
Posts: 8411
Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2014 11:47 am
Location: Parts Unknown
Has thanked: 909 times
Been thanked: 1277 times

wab wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:21 pm
The Marshall Plan wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 10:54 am

I have a feeling he's just getting warmed up. We're due for another term paper on how Mitch = Brees. Mitch just needed another half decade and it would've happened.

Then apparently Nagy taught Fangio everything he knows about defense and deserves equal credit for a generational defense that drove the 12-4 record. (Just ignore how the Bears are .500 for two straight years since Fangio left.)

The sad thing is that wab kinda agrees with him. Part of that is he's bailing out his buddy who made the Bears commentary equivalent of the Germans bombing Pearl Harbor without the humorous spin.

My guess is that Mitch's Bitches are in denial that their boy was a disaster and for whatever reason they can't admit it. Since they've died on Mitch Hill, the remnants of that movement are now on Nagy Hill and will do anything to defend it.

Like wouldn't The Tell that Mitch was done be when people cheered that Nick Foles got put in the game?
I'm not entirely sure what your deal is. I simply pointed out the offense did exactly what they were supposed to do. I simultaneously "kinda agreed" with points you both made without even mentioning Mitch.

If you'd like to continue to take not-so-subtle pot shots at me, we should probably take that discussion to PM.
PM sent.
Image
User avatar
G08
Hall of Famer
Posts: 20555
Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2008 12:34 pm
Location: Football Hell
Has thanked: 209 times
Been thanked: 753 times

Yogi da Bear wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:29 pm
RustinFields wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 8:46 am You really dont remember all the short routes where dudes had to stop and leap as high as they could and got lit up? You dont remember the game last season where Mooney got injured that started with him getting lit up in the flat doing exactly that?

It's why I'm convinced that Nagy never tried Gabriel in the slot and stubbornly kept him outside.
Um, Mooney didn't get injured in the flat. It was a flat pass, but Mooney busted through three tacklers and got hit, by what I thought and still think, was a late hit out of bounds, ten yards down the field by Adrian Amos. There was nothing wrong with Trubisky's pass that caused him to get injured.

Precisely, that hit had absolutely nothing to do with the throw and occurred 6 yards down the field after the ball was caught.

@Yogi da Bear I hate to say it but I thought it was a clean hit and if it was one of our guys dishing it out to a Packer I would have been running around my condo screaming.
9 PLAYOFF APPEARANCES IN THE PAST 35 SEASONS

User avatar
The Marshall Plan
Hall of Famer
Posts: 8411
Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2014 11:47 am
Location: Parts Unknown
Has thanked: 909 times
Been thanked: 1277 times

IE wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:37 pm
The Marshall Plan wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 12:18 pm Enjoy....

That made my eyes burn. Holy mother of... we spent 3 years watching that, and it was like Groundhog Day Bad Hell over & over & over again.

Let me say this... the guy may not be technically *wrong* when he points out the nuances of Mitch's bad mechanics and footwork - but that is not WHY he failed and it is not something that can be fixed. In a lifetime, a fish cannot learn to ride a bicycle. THAT is the problem. Mitch is not an NFL QB. He can't do it. He could never do it consistently because he's not natural. Things that aren't natural can't be made to come natural. End of story.

A natural QB can make those throws even with imperfect mechanics. A natural QB hits many of those if not most of those plays. Foles is actually very much a natural QB. He just has some clear physical limitations that require he operate behind a pretty good Oline, and he doesn't have the athleticism to help the Oline out. A bad combination on the Bears last year. But going forward Foles might be a pretty good backup to keep around as this young Oline comes together.

All the bad rookie coach blunders and past run aversion aside, this video shows why I'm optimistic about Nagy.
I am sincerely optimistic about this season and Nagy even though I'm not a fan of his thus far. I can respect the argument that the key mistakes to date (failure to develop Mitch and predictable play calling are 99% of it) are a function of having a bad QB prospect and poor OL.

I don't know enough about Nagy The QB Whisperer to know what impact he'll have on Fields in that development. I do believe that Fields is in good QB School hands with Flip. With Nagy, Fields has a highly motivated high energy positive mindset HC who will be in his corner. If we get that out of Nagy I think that Fields is in a good spot.

Now in that video, Mitch is screwing up those throws under minimal pressure. Yes, the OL had problems, but a lot of those throws were just One Read Mitch and not being a good QB.

The exciting thing is that there's no comparison between Mitch as a QB prospect and Fields. It's like a Camry ;) vs a Porsche.
Image
User avatar
dplank
Hall of Famer
Posts: 12016
Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2016 9:19 am
Has thanked: 1199 times
Been thanked: 2128 times

Boris13c wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 11:34 am I guess I'm more on the pissed at Nagy side of things ... I was happy the Bears got him and his rookie season as a head coach was more than anyone expected ... I was excited for the years ahead

and then .......

let's just say things did not go well and not go off on a rant ... opportunities were certainly missed and rather than growth and progression we got chaos and regression ... not all of it was Nagy's fault, but he is the guy in charge so has to accept the responsibility ... he did not get the most from his team because he seemed to not know how to use what he had ... the key to successful coaching is taking the players you have and putting them in the best situation for success ... I don't think Nagy did that very well
I dunno man. Bottom line here is he's gone 28-20 and made the playoffs 2 of 3 seasons (and yes, I degrade that a bit in 2018 b/c of the great D). But he did this with without a functional QB and a bottom barrel OL. I don't think that Bill Walsh could have done anything with what we had. Everyone says he should have run the ball more, but when he did run the ball against any halfway decent defense we got STUFFED because our OL was so bad. He was really in a no win situation with the personnel. No QB and No OL is not a formula for success.

He seemed to scheme things up well, but his QB couldn't read the back of a milk carton let alone a defense. And his OL couldn't block an old lady from crossing the street. It's hard to give him much of a grade given all that. But we can grade his ability as a leader/HC if not his OC hat. And I grade that pretty darn high. This season should tell us a lot more about him IMO.
User avatar
Rusty Trombagent
Hall of Famer
Posts: 7336
Joined: Fri Aug 31, 2012 11:19 am
Location: Maine!
Has thanked: 554 times
Been thanked: 967 times

Yogi da Bear wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:29 pm
RustinFields wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 8:46 am You really dont remember all the short routes where dudes had to stop and leap as high as they could and got lit up? You dont remember the game last season where Mooney got injured that started with him getting lit up in the flat doing exactly that?

It's why I'm convinced that Nagy never tried Gabriel in the slot and stubbornly kept him outside.
Um, Mooney didn't get injured in the flat. It was a flat pass, but Mooney busted through three tacklers and got hit, by what I thought and still think, was a late hit out of bounds, ten yards down the field by Adrian Amos. There was nothing wrong with Trubisky's pass that caused him to get injured.

he got creamed on a pass earlier in the game, i posted a vid of this awhile back in some other argument. i'll find it later.
Image
User avatar
UOK
Site Admin
Posts: 25142
Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2008 11:07 am
Location: Champaign, IL
Has thanked: 108 times
Been thanked: 923 times

The Marshall Plan wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 10:54 am Mitch's Bitches
Less of that. Let's keep the vibes positive. I have no earthly idea why some of you are so out for blood against one another's takes and philosophies.

I'll say it again - lighten the fuck up. Quit being dicks.

If I have to keep opening these threads to read all this wearisome circular horseshit about how somebody's arguments suck, name-calling, etc., etc., I'm locking threads by the pile until we're within eyeshot of the preseason.
Image
User avatar
Yogi da Bear
Head Coach
Posts: 2499
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2018 4:43 pm
Has thanked: 208 times
Been thanked: 359 times

dplank wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 2:49 pm I dunno man. Bottom line here is he's gone 28-20 and made the playoffs 2 of 3 seasons (and yes, I degrade that a bit in 2018 b/c of the great D). But he did this with without a functional QB and a bottom barrel OL. I don't think that Bill Walsh could have done anything with what we had. Everyone says he should have run the ball more, but when he did run the ball against any halfway decent defense we got STUFFED because our OL was so bad. He was really in a no win situation with the personnel.
I'll have to disagree with you on this. He completely misused Jordan Howard. Howard is a high volume back but he hardly ever gave him that volume, even when he was performing well. I can't tell you how many times Howard ripped off a run or two only to replaced by Cohen who then got nothing. When Howard is on a roll, you roll with him. Against Green Bay opening day, he averaged 5.47 yards a carry but only carried it 15 times. And that's a game when we were way up and should have been running clock. Against Miami, he averaged 4.93 a carry and only carried it 14 times. Against the Giants, he average 4.75 a carry and only carried it 16 times. Those were all losses. He only carried it more than 20 times twice that year, both victories.

Now, let's look at David Montgomery:

As a rookie, David only carried it 20 or more times four times. We were 3-1 in those games. The loss a one pointer to the Chargers. He averaged 5.15 a carry against Washington and only carried it 13 times; 4.69 a carry with only 16 carries; 4.38 against KC on only 13 carries.

Last year was worse. David carried it more than 20 times four times, and we went 2-2 in those games. He started out like gangbusters averaging 4.92 and 5.13 a carry to start the season on only 13 and 16 carries. Then Daniels went down and his YPC struggled. But he bounced back in the first Green Bay game and averaged 9.38 a carry but only had 11 carries in a loss. He had 4.24 a carry on 17 carries against Detroit, another loss. Next game, he averaged 10.21 on 11 carries against Houston, a win.

Now, I don't want to go back to Foxy Ball, but by the same token I don't want to go Marc Trestman either. The thing that irks me the most with Nagy is when a RB is on a roll, you don't replace him. Ride him. It's something that he seems to want to consistently do. The one most egregious example was against Miami in Overtime in '18. Jordan Howard carried first for 19 yards and then for 15 yards, giving us a first and ten and Miami's 44. He then ran Tariq for 3 and Bennie Cunningham for 2. WTF?! I mean really WTF?! Yes, he did come back to Jordan, but he already lost that momentum and was stuffed. Parkey missed a 52 yarder. It's like Damian Lillard is red hot at the end of the game, hits two long three pointers, and you take him out so that a cold McCullom (Cohen had 31 on 5 carries that game with one 21 yarder, so he had 10 yards on the other 8 carries) and some slub off the bench (Cunningham was our third string back and had 8 yards on 3 carries that game) can take a couple of 3 pointers before putting Lilliard back in. Fucking stupid. Nagy's play by play is replete with this kind of shit. He VERY rarely gives a hot RB more than 2 consecutive carries (maybe two or three times in his entire Bear Coaching Career) and even two consecutive carries is rare in itself. And it's not like he even uses the hot back as a decoy, he typically takes him out of the game entirely.

That's my main pet peeve with Nagy. He's got to stop doing that. When you're on a roll, football can be easy. Just go with the hot hand. Don't make it harder than it is. If he learns that, I will be very happy with him.
User avatar
dplank
Hall of Famer
Posts: 12016
Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2016 9:19 am
Has thanked: 1199 times
Been thanked: 2128 times

I guess I’d just counter by pointing out that we played the Lions and Giants. Once we played good defenses our OL simply couldn’t get it done and running was a futile effort.
User avatar
Yogi da Bear
Head Coach
Posts: 2499
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2018 4:43 pm
Has thanked: 208 times
Been thanked: 359 times

And I'll double counter with, if a guy is averaging over 9 yards a carry against Green Bay, you give him more than 11 carries.
User avatar
The Marshall Plan
Hall of Famer
Posts: 8411
Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2014 11:47 am
Location: Parts Unknown
Has thanked: 909 times
Been thanked: 1277 times

@Yogi da Bear

I completely agree.

That’s a huge flaw in Nagy’s thought process. The strength of the team the past three years has been the defense. A running game gives the defense a breather. But a running game doesn’t fit his idea of what an offense is.

And to another point of yours, when you’ve got a RB on a roll you feed that guy nonstop. If he gets tired, feed RB #2 and see if it’s working because of RB #1 or if the opposing defense is tired.

Now we did have OL problems. Hopefully this year with the upgrades and that running game gets going Nagy sticks with it.
Image
User avatar
Yogi da Bear
Head Coach
Posts: 2499
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2018 4:43 pm
Has thanked: 208 times
Been thanked: 359 times

The Marshall Plan wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 4:54 pm @Yogi da Bear

I completely agree.

That’s a huge flaw in Nagy’s thought process. The strength of the team the past three years has been the defense. A running game gives the defense a breather. But a running game doesn’t fit his idea of what an offense is.

And to another point of yours, when you’ve got a RB on a roll you feed that guy nonstop. If he gets tired, feed RB #2 and see if it’s working because of RB #1 or if the opposing defense is tired.

Now we did have OL problems. Hopefully this year with the upgrades and that running game gets going Nagy sticks with it.
I agree and I think that's going to be absolutely critical for Jenkins at LT. Right now, he probably the best run blocker we have. With Whitehair next to him, they should be a very potent run blocking force. Considering that the easiest way to slow those speed pass rushers down is to run right at them, take advantage of our strength. But that RDE on his heels and on the ground a few times, and then see how quickly he tries to round the corner to the QB.

What's strange though, in watching the tape of Jenkins playing LT at Oklahoma State, they didn't take advantage of his run blocking prowess there. The hardly ever ran behind him to the left side. And that's with a pretty damn good RB in Chubba Howard, a fourth round pick in this year's draft. Still, trying to figure out why they didn't take advantage of that.
User avatar
Rusty Trombagent
Hall of Famer
Posts: 7336
Joined: Fri Aug 31, 2012 11:19 am
Location: Maine!
Has thanked: 554 times
Been thanked: 967 times

Here you go, first throw in this highlight package. Mooney got slammed really hard and was limping when he got up. I thought he was coming out of the game then and there but he's a pretty tough motherfucker:


People glaze over this stuff, but he'd have a few of these throws a game and I am sure his receivers are glad that shit is potentially over.
Image
User avatar
G08
Hall of Famer
Posts: 20555
Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2008 12:34 pm
Location: Football Hell
Has thanked: 209 times
Been thanked: 753 times

Yeah I referenced that throw in my reply. You talked about short throws, misplaced, and the receiver getting killed.

I haven't seen that let alone to the extent you are claiming.
9 PLAYOFF APPEARANCES IN THE PAST 35 SEASONS

User avatar
Yogi da Bear
Head Coach
Posts: 2499
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2018 4:43 pm
Has thanked: 208 times
Been thanked: 359 times

RustinFields wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 5:27 pm Here you go, first throw in this highlight package. Mooney got slammed really hard and was limping when he got up. I thought he was coming out of the game then and there but he's a pretty tough motherfucker:


People glaze over this stuff, but he'd have a few of these throws a game and I am sure his receivers are glad that shit is potentially over.
You mean the second throw? That first throw wasn't in the flat. It was downfield a bit.

It's kind of dangerous though to make a judgement on a game performance from a "lowlight clip." Despite with this clip shows, Mitchell actually didn't have a bad game. Not a great one. But not a horrible one either. He completed 78.57 percent of his passes for 252 yards and a 81.7 rating. Not great, but not horrible either.

This clip shows a pretty accurate analysis of Mitchell from that game with shots of more positive plays:



Remember, despite what the analyst says, this wasn't Nagy making adjustments to accommodate Mitchel. This was Lazor making the calls. Now, if you want to compare his performance here or the first Green Bay game last year (also a Lazor called game) with Mitchell's Nagy called games of 2019 where he had a 62.1 and a 64.5 QB rating and a combined 16 points in two games, I'd be happy to.

The plain fact of the matter is that Nagy tried to force Trubisky into his system rather than adjust his system to what Trubs does best, and yes, even Lazor should have had Trubs running more, but yes he was also an improvement over what Nagy did with him. Hopefully, Nagy has learned from his experience with Trubs, but I don't think it matters as much as I believe that Fields is much more suited for Nagy's system. But even so, I still hope he incorporates particular plays that Fields likes that might not be in his system. Reid did it for Mahomes. So why not? It makes sense.
User avatar
wab
Mod
Posts: 29805
Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2008 12:49 pm
Has thanked: 127 times
Been thanked: 1956 times

I’m just gonna merge this with the Trubisky circle-jerk that I thought died.
User avatar
dplank
Hall of Famer
Posts: 12016
Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2016 9:19 am
Has thanked: 1199 times
Been thanked: 2128 times

The Marshall Plan wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 4:54 pm @Yogi da Bear

I completely agree.

That’s a huge flaw in Nagy’s thought process. The strength of the team the past three years has been the defense. A running game gives the defense a breather. But a running game doesn’t fit his idea of what an offense is.

And to another point of yours, when you’ve got a RB on a roll you feed that guy nonstop. If he gets tired, feed RB #2 and see if it’s working because of RB #1 or if the opposing defense is tired.

Now we did have OL problems. Hopefully this year with the upgrades and that running game gets going Nagy sticks with it.
KC runs a lot, I think there’s a chicken/egg debate here. Not a philosophy problem so much.
Post Reply