Over/Under JF1 snaps vs Bengals

[wab]

Went with the 'over'... I think he gets one full series which goes 7 plays, and then at least two snaps in the red zone.

I agree…I think he gets at least one full series this week.

[G08]

If we had an elite offensive line, I'd be more inclined to push Fields to start if he wasn't fully ready.

We don't. As it stands we have what very well could be a bottom 5 OL.


If we ran a simple, run-heavy / QB-friendly scheme, I'd be more inclined to push Fields to start if he wasn't fully ready.

We don't. We run one of the most complex systems in the NFL.

Why do you keep repeating that he’s not fully ready and ignore the question I posed: if he’s not ready why is he QB2 over Foles? Take everything else you just said then ask yourself if Fields should play if Dalton gets hurt. You either must accept that he is ready to play (in which case you start him now) or you accept that he’s not ready and Foles is your QB2. You keep avoiding this reality. It’s one or the other man.

Because it's common sense in my brain, and I already explained you can trot him out there with a bare bones offense. They want him to get looks, they just don't want to throw him out there with the full offense at his disposal, which is where we currently are.

If you make Foles QB2, then Fields will be inactive and you can't have his package / special set of plays installed.

Do you understand these things?

[RichH55]

I get how you and many other fans are pissed off about that, but Nagy isn't wrong in saying that Fields is a chess piece.

There is SO MUCH you can do with him, and SO MUCH the defense must account for just by his mere presence. That puts them in a bind and anytime you have a defense thinking, the field tilts in the favor of the offense.

If only he was allowed to apply that pressure on the defense for the whole game instead of just a handful of plays! Boy, what a world that would be! Nah, let's sit him for 95% of the game and only apply that pressure on a handful of plays, I'm sure it'll be fine.

G08, people are pissed because the implication here is that he's going to be used in spot duty as some gadget toy of Nagy's, ala CPat. Why wouldn't you want to tilt the field in favor of the offense for the whole game?? He's not a spot duty, gadget player - he's a starting QB.

Guessing the people who are pissed about the Chess Piece thing (BTW that is amped up when Dalton plays - they can't fully prepare) - are just pissed in general?

Would there be right words that would make them non-pissed beyond we are playing Fields?

No. Of course not

[dplank]

No, I don’t G08. Youre logic doesn’t work. If Dalton gets hurt, Fields goes in and plays full time - Foles is inactive. According to you, that’s a bad move because you don’t think he’s ready and that will hurt the rookies future. Sneaking him in for 5 snaps does not supersede that risk if that’s what you believe. It’s totally inconsistent.

It’s like saying you hate rap music and you think it’s terrible for people to listen to, then turn around and say that you like a little Ice Cube in your mix and he’s is your second favorite artist.

[G08]

No, I don’t G08. Youre logic doesn’t work. If Dalton gets hurt, Fields goes in and plays full time - Foles is inactive. According to you, that’s a bad move because you don’t think he’s ready and that will hurt the rookies future. Sneaking him in for 5 snaps does not supersede that risk if that’s what you believe. It’s totally inconsistent.

It’s like saying you hate rap music and you think it’s terrible for people to listen to, then turn around and say that you like a little Ice Cube in your mix and he’s is your second favorite artist.

Okay I'll spell it out one last time and then am moving on:

1. Dalton is the starter. Nagy likes that he can run his entire offense and isn't worried about Dalton making the wrong checks at the LOS and getting killed behind a shoddy offensive line. This also gives him time to see how is OL is coming together and what the offense does well.

2. Fields is QB2. The reason he is not QB3 is because QB3 is always inactive, which means that you can't put Justin Fields out on the field as a "chess piece", which also means that you can't cause issues for defensive coordinators when it comes to prepping their teams to face against us. The benefit of Fields being QB2 > running this offense behind the statue of suckitude that is Nick Foles.

3. "Sneaking him in for 5 snaps" is not a risk because he is not being exposed to the entire playbook and is not at risk for being burned by complex blitz packages/coverages. Fields is running basic concepts which I detailed in another post (one-read WR out [pass], WR reverse [run], RPO WR shovel [pass], RPO QB keeper sweep [run]). I think you are deeply failing to understand this aspect of the logic.

[G08]

If we had an elite offensive line, I'd be more inclined to push Fields to start if he wasn't fully ready.

We don't. As it stands we have what very well could be a bottom 5 OL.


If we ran a simple, run-heavy / QB-friendly scheme, I'd be more inclined to push Fields to start if he wasn't fully ready.

We don't. We run one of the most complex systems in the NFL.

So what is your opinion on Lazor's most recent comments?

If I had to guess, he thinks Fields can play -- and play well -- in a simplified offense that Lazor was running toward the end of last season with Trubisky.

We all know Nagy is a stubborn fuck who will jam his offense down the throat of this franchise until we either swallow it whole or choke and die.

[dplank]

I’m not mad here, legit just don’t understand one point.

Dalton gets hurt scenario. Are you ok starting Fields if Dalton gets hurt?

[G08]

I’m not mad here, legit just don’t understand one point.

Dalton gets hurt scenario. Are you ok starting Fields if Dalton gets hurt?

I am but only if he is running a bare-bones version of Nagy's offense. Simplified shit, I don't want him sitting back behind a shoddy offensive line trying to decipher post-snap coverages and waiting to make sure his WRs adjust correctly. That's a sure-fire way for him to die.

Heavy outside zone, play-action boot off that for deep shots, quick game, RPOs and designed QB runs would make me comfortable.


I just know Nagy is not that fucking guy and it terrifies me for JF1.

[G08]

@dplank I've maintained that if this was Kyle Shannahan's super-QB-friendly offense, I'd want Fields out there day one.

[dplank]

And if he won’t change the offense, you’d roll with Foles?

[G08]

And if he won’t change the offense, you’d roll with Foles?

I don't see this being the case, if Dalton gets hurt it will be Fields and it will be limited to plays that he is 100% comfortable (think OSU concepts).


If, in your hypothetical situation, Nagy says he's running whatever the fuck he wants whether Fields knows it or not, then yeah put Foles out there to die.

[IE]

Fields is already on record as saying the Bear concepts and OSU concepts greatly overlap - and that not much is new concept wise, but mostly only with terminology (and the QB role with the play calling).

Fields and Lazor and even Nagy have indicated that he's got the concepts down.

This "negotiating" from one dug-in position to another is sort of tiring. Can't people just happily change their take based on a decent amount of more recent information?

[dplank]

And if he won’t change the offense, you’d roll with Foles?

I don't see this being the case, if Dalton gets hurt it will be Fields and it will be limited to plays that he is 100% comfortable (think OSU concepts).


If, in your hypothetical situation, Nagy says he's running whatever the fuck he wants whether Fields knows it or not, then yeah put Foles out there to die.

Cool got it. Our main preference is the same, tailor the offense to Fields and start him. We differ in the risk assessment of him running Nagys offense. But really I want Nagy to change the offense regardless of who is QB! His offense appears to suck after 3 years. Let Lazor take over.

[circlecitybear]

How about this. Nagy and Pace know we do not have a playoff caliber team and will hold Fields back and play him late in the year. This way they will win a few games and look good, and probably keep their jobs. I think he needs to play now if we have any chance to win the division or make the playoffs. As said before, he is one of the best 11.

[Grizzled]

I'm going with over, especially if the game starts getting away.

[RichH55]

Fields is already on record as saying the Bear concepts and OSU concepts greatly overlap - and that not much is new concept wise, but mostly only with terminology (and the QB role with the play calling).

Fields and Lazor and even Nagy have indicated that he's got the concepts down.

This "negotiating" from one dug-in position to another is sort of tiring. Can't people just happily change their take based on a decent amount of more recent information?

So - THe information that should change peoples takes - comes from the same people who feel that information also means Fields shouldn't be starting yet? Got it.

Calling a press conference comment that is positive on Fields evidence of anything is a STRETCH

Lazor "Hes having Fun out there!" It's like a mat - where you Jump - to conclusions!

[RichH55]

And if he won’t change the offense, you’d roll with Foles?

Now this is a very, very, very interesting question.

I wonder what they would do - as I think the plan has always been more Fields centered than anything surrounding Andy Dalton - and I fail to see why Nick Foles would change that (*)

(*) Nick Foles was garbage last year and now that Mitch isn't around - We can all admit it

If Andy Dalton got hurt at like the end of the game this week - I do wonder if they'd start Foles - interesting for sure

[AZ_Bearfan]

[IE]

Fields is already on record as saying the Bear concepts and OSU concepts greatly overlap - and that not much is new concept wise, but mostly only with terminology (and the QB role with the play calling).

Fields and Lazor and even Nagy have indicated that he's got the concepts down.

This "negotiating" from one dug-in position to another is sort of tiring. Can't people just happily change their take based on a decent amount of more recent information?

So - THe information that should change peoples takes - comes from the same people who feel that information also means Fields shouldn't be starting yet? Got it.

Calling a press conference comment that is positive on Fields evidence of anything is a STRETCH

Lazor "Hes having Fun out there!" It's like a mat - where you Jump - to conclusions!

You're either a deliberate troll or not very bright. Regardless, your dishonest responses are something to avoid encouraging.

[BearsFanInMN]

I went over just based on rumor that if game was closer against Rams they would’ve put Fields in more. Could be BS but Nagy likes his special packages and knows his job is reliant on Fields development sooner than later.

[RichH55]

So - THe information that should change peoples takes - comes from the same people who feel that information also means Fields shouldn't be starting yet? Got it.

Calling a press conference comment that is positive on Fields evidence of anything is a STRETCH

Lazor "Hes having Fun out there!" It's like a mat - where you Jump - to conclusions!

You're either a deliberate troll or not very bright. Regardless, your dishonest responses are something to avoid encouraging.

I was directly responding to this: "Can't people just happily change their take based on a decent amount of more recent information?"

As if there had been more decent amount of recent information (other than he held the ball too long in Preseason - though looked magic at times too - and that our LT situation looks worse than it did ) besides Pressers and Media Hot Takes

It's pure jump to conclusions - You think he should play right now and thus everything is evidence that he should - no matter its actual worth.

I get the arguments both ways on whether he should play or not - BUT to suggest there has been Recent Information - let alone a "decent amount" of it that would/should change peoples opinions either way - Is just Not the Case.

[Mikefive]

If we had an elite offensive line, I'd be more inclined to push Fields to start if he wasn't fully ready.

We don't. As it stands we have what very well could be a bottom 5 OL.


If we ran a simple, run-heavy / QB-friendly scheme, I'd be more inclined to push Fields to start if he wasn't fully ready.

We don't. We run one of the most complex systems in the NFL.

Why do you keep repeating that he’s not fully ready and ignore the question I posed: if he’s not ready why is he QB2 over Foles? Take everything else you just said then ask yourself if Fields should play if Dalton gets hurt. You either must accept that he is ready to play (in which case you start him now) or you accept that he’s not ready and Foles is your QB2. You keep avoiding this reality. It’s one or the other man.

You make a very good point here. If the guy's not ready, why do you put him in a position where an event could occur that's outside of your control and he's playing. I'm well on G08's side of this debate. But your logic here is spot on.

[The Marshall Plan]

So - THe information that should change peoples takes - comes from the same people who feel that information also means Fields shouldn't be starting yet? Got it.

Calling a press conference comment that is positive on Fields evidence of anything is a STRETCH

Lazor "Hes having Fun out there!" It's like a mat - where you Jump - to conclusions!

You're either a deliberate troll or not very bright. Regardless, your dishonest responses are something to avoid encouraging.

What?

Do you at least find value in his commentary about how college programs do AFTER their QB gets drafted as a barometer for how the drafted QB will do in the pros?

For me, that one is fucking genius.

ALMOST as good of a deciding factor as reading goat entrails. Almost.

OSU plays Tulsa today. I'm going to follow that game closely. That, coupled with a Zoom call with my astrologer, will drive my opinion as to whether or not Fields is any damn good.

[IE]

Lol

[RichH55]

You're either a deliberate troll or not very bright. Regardless, your dishonest responses are something to avoid encouraging.

What?

Do you at least find value in his commentary about how college programs do AFTER their QB gets drafted as a barometer for how the drafted QB will do in the pros?

For me, that one is fucking genius.

ALMOST as good of a deciding factor as reading goat entrails. Almost.

OSU plays Tulsa today. I'm going to follow that game closely. That, coupled with a Zoom call with my astrologer, will drive my opinion as to whether or not Fields is any damn good.

They all pale in comparison to scouting Mitch based on how he looks at Pressers

Noting how much talent a College has or doesnt have for the guy - does seem fair (not end all be all stuff - but fair?)

I mean people talked about the importance of Pro Day (very little) and how he orders his Sandwich (more than Pro Day but not very much) for Fields and people were like "YEAH he fucking nailed that Order ! Championship!"

But noting that having potentially 2 Day 1-2 WR might have helped and that the Big Ten kind of stinks after tOSU might help?

And it's BURN HIM! HE TURNED ME INTO A NEWT!

[IE]

[docc]

[The Marshall Plan]

What?

Do you at least find value in his commentary about how college programs do AFTER their QB gets drafted as a barometer for how the drafted QB will do in the pros?

For me, that one is fucking genius.

ALMOST as good of a deciding factor as reading goat entrails. Almost.

OSU plays Tulsa today. I'm going to follow that game closely. That, coupled with a Zoom call with my astrologer, will drive my opinion as to whether or not Fields is any damn good.

They all pale in comparison to scouting Mitch based on how he looks at Pressers

Noting how much talent a College has or doesnt have for the guy - does seem fair (not end all be all stuff - but fair?)

I mean people talked about the importance of Pro Day (very little) and how he orders his Sandwich (more than Pro Day but not very much) for Fields and people were like "YEAH he fucking nailed that Order ! Championship!"

But noting that having potentially 2 Day 1-2 WR might have helped and that the Big Ten kind of stinks after tOSU might help?

And it's BURN HIM! HE TURNED ME INTO A NEWT!

What does it tell you that Ohio State beat Tulsa 41-20 yesterday and how Fields will perform?

[Atkins&Rebel]

Under at 5 plays.

Nagy is going to keep trotting JF1 out for random plays instead of giving the kid a nice scripted set of plays to string together.

[Ditka’s dictaphone]

Under - because stubborn Nagy would rather maintain his rep than do the right thing.