Pace hot seat

[Grizzled]

No way can the Bears as an organization reward Pace by "kicking him upstairs" or retaining him in his present position. The only possible move would be a Director of Scouting or somesuch. Anything else and they will cement their reputation as a clueless anachronistic Chicago team like the Cubs pre-Epstein, the 'Hawks pre-Rocky Wirtz, and the Bulls in the Gar-Pax era.

[Moriarty]

No way can the Bears as an organization reward Pace by "kicking him upstairs" or retaining him in his present position. The only possible move would be a Director of Scouting or somesuch.

That's where his level of competence ends.
He's already 1 level above it and they're thinking of making it 2.

[Grizzled]

No way can the Bears as an organization reward Pace by "kicking him upstairs" or retaining him in his present position. The only possible move would be a Director of Scouting or somesuch.

That's where his level of competence ends.
He's already 1 level above it and they're thinking of making it 2.

We'll know late Sunday night/Monday a.m. I never cheer when a guy is fired but believe they need major changes throughout the organization.

[dave99]

Seems like most of the arguments for keeping Pace come down to:
He may have started to learn his job and it's possible he may do better in the future.
Pretty thin reed to rest a franchise on.
Also, as they say, hope is not a strategy.

[The Cooler King]

Seems like most of the arguments for keeping Pace come down to:
He may have started to learn his job and it's possible he may do better in the future.
Pretty thin reed to rest a franchise on.
Also, as they say, hope is not a strategy.

The thing is, "what will this guy do in the future" is how the decision should be made. I mean a first time GM has even less to go off of, but we're guilty of filling in the unknown as a positive.

If there's a good case that Pace is growing on the job, fans or media aren't really going to be in a position to know, so it makes it a toogh sell from the org. Rightfully so, no one trusts this org to make a tough call like that.

[Otis Day]

Bears record with Pace at GM = 48-64. Pathetic that this org. would be thinking of promoting let alone keeping him on in his present position.

[HisRoyalSweetness]

Or you could look at it a different way: Pace had to spend his first few seasons rebuilding the team, especially the defense from the worst it had ever been in the franchise's history, and over the last four seasons the Bears' record with Pace at GM is 34-30 with 2 playoff appearances.

As for the wisdom or otherwise of trading up for Jenkins, it makes more sense to look at the draft as a whole. Putting aside the much discussed Fields and Jenkins, both of whom Pace traded up for, how have the other picks done so far?

Despite getting injured in Week 1 after coming off the bench to play LT when Peters went down, Larry Borom's played almost every snap of all but one of the last 9 games (missing one due to Covid) and has looked OK. PFF has him graded the same as the man he replaced, Germain Ifedi, a former 1st round pick with 83 career starts under his belt.

Khalil Herbert's been productive when called upon with 99 carries for 422 yards (4.3ypc) and 2 TDs plus 14 catches for 96 yards. He's also been a solid kick returner averaging 23.6 yards with a long of 50 yards.

Dazz Newsome has only played two games and has only 1 catch for 10 yards. He's also had a 28 yard punt return.

Thomas Graham also hasn't had much opportunity, but he's flashed potential when he has. He played 100% of the defensive snaps in his debut against the Vikings and had 3 PDs and 7 combined tackles. The following week he only played 68% of the snaps and gave up a big TD, but added another PD and 4 more tackles (3 solo). Bizarrely he only got 4 snaps against the Giants making a solo tackle on one of them. In his limited playing time he's been targeted 11 times and given up just 5 completions (45.5%). 41 of the 63 yards he's conceded came on that one big TD where he was left 1-on-1 against DK Metcalf who was a Pro Bowler and 2nd Team All Pro last season.

Khyiris Tonga has played in 14 games this season as part of the defensive line rotation and been on the field 23% of the time. He has 10 solo tackles, 11 assists, 1 TFL and a fumble recovery. He was also denied a sack when he was penalised for landing with his full weight on the QB.

Overall that's a pretty encouraging first year for these lower drafted guys, giving hope that this could prove to be a really good draft class. I'm looking forward to seeing how they get on next year regardless of whether Pace remains the GM and who the new HC and co-ordinators are.

[RichH55]

A lot of people wanted Jenkins as our 1st round pick.

There are reasons to criticise Pace but the 2021 draft is not one I can support. I was pleased with the draft.

None of those people had access to the Medicals though

[Artbest]

The 2021 draft, thus far, has yielded nothing. There’s potential - but that’s it. Way too soon to make pronouncements imo

[Bears Whiskey Nut]

No way can the Bears as an organization reward Pace by "kicking him upstairs" or retaining him in his present position. The only possible move would be a Director of Scouting or somesuch.

That's where his level of competence ends.
He's already 1 level above it and they're thinking of making it 2.

You and everyone else complaining about promoting Pace are assuming identical skill sets required for the positions. I.e. if you're a good GM, you have to be a GREAT GM to be the President of Football Operations. Nothing could be further from the truth. These are completely different positions. A person can have the qualities of being a mediocre/average GM, but possess the long term strategic thinking/ FO personnel management skills that would make them an outstanding President. Don't conflate the two and assume promoting him is a fuck up. I'm really good at my job as a Global Account Manager. I can tell you right now, I do NOT possess the skills to be a Director of VP of Sales. Couldn't do it, don't want it, not my thing. It's not how my brain is wired, it's not what would get me out of bed in the morning.

[Grizzled]

Bears record with Pace at GM = 48-64. Pathetic that this org. would be thinking of promoting let alone keeping him on in his present position.

0 playoff wins also.

Several reports coming out that certain coaches (Harbaugh, McDaniels) may not consider the Bears if Pace is kicked upstairs to oversee all football ops or retained as GM. These guys would want to be hired and then bring in their own GM. Doesn't sound like something the McCaskeys buy into.

[Bears Whiskey Nut]

Bears record with Pace at GM = 48-64. Pathetic that this org. would be thinking of promoting let alone keeping him on in his present position.

0 playoff wins also.

Several reports coming out that certain coaches (Harbaugh, McDaniels) may not consider the Bears if Pace is kicked upstairs to oversee all football ops or retained as GM. These guys would want to be hired and then bring in their own GM. Doesn't sound like something the McCaskeys buy into.

This is BS. A HC is not going to care, and/or would wait to speak with Pace before making that assessment. Pace is not so hated around the league that a quality coach would act like that.

[Grizzled]

0 playoff wins also.

Several reports coming out that certain coaches (Harbaugh, McDaniels) may not consider the Bears if Pace is kicked upstairs to oversee all football ops or retained as GM. These guys would want to be hired and then bring in their own GM. Doesn't sound like something the McCaskeys buy into.

This is BS. A HC is not going to care, and/or would wait to speak with Pace before making that assessment. Pace is not so hated around the league that a quality coach would act like that.

May be not so much that as certain guys want to have a GM they're familiar with.

[Bears Whiskey Nut]

This is BS. A HC is not going to care, and/or would wait to speak with Pace before making that assessment. Pace is not so hated around the league that a quality coach would act like that.

May be not so much that as certain guys want to have a GM they're familiar with.

A HC wants a GM he thinks he can win with. That is willing to go out and get the players/pieces that the franchise needs. Pace has demonstrated a willingness to do that. It's the mismanagement of those pieces that created our record over the last three years, not the players that Pace drafted/signed.

[bearsoldier]

Per reports of Pace staying on with the Bears and possibly being promoted to President... Please weigh in on the following "silly season" path for the Bears...

Some have have thrown Sean Payton in the hat as a potential HC for the Bears. I really do not see that happening as a possible "trade" for him is nothing more than a pipe dream and would be way too costly to be plausible. And really, why would the Saints would even consider it?? For draft picks and $$$??? We all know that is not happening.

On a similar train of thought, lets say they do keep Pace and through his connection with Sean Payton, he offers Saints coach an opportunity to be the next GM of the Bears... My question is... Could Sean Payton walk away from the Saints contract to be a GM??? Moving from a HC position to a GM would be considered a promotion, correct?? I am not saying Payton would be interested in becoming a GM, just would it be a promotion in terms of an NFL contract???

To play along with the silly season idea a bit further, lets say Payton is interested and yes, the GM position is a promotion and the Bears hire him as GM. Then last key part of the restructure would be Pace as President, Payton as GM and have Dennis Allen follow the trend, becoming the next HC of the Bears.

I know, it is just another silly season idea and wont be what happens, but would you warm up to this if it were to become the reality?

I prefer Pace is fired for his failures on record, coaching hires, FA misses/letting good players walk away, too many misses on prior drafts and horrible handling of draft capital... He should be gone and that is the preferred solution to change the direction of the franchise.... That said, just as general question, is a HC able to take a promotion as a GM and forego a contract with another team?

[The Marshall Plan]

It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if the McCaskey's promoted Pace.

They're the only ones dumb enough to do it.

I can only imagine when that presser is held. 90% of the people across the league are gonna say how is that dumbass getting promoted?

This is just like Corporate America.

The moron who missed out on Watson gets promoted. Meanwhile there's probably an entire stable of legitimate candidates out there just itching for the job.

Seriously I'm getting to the point where it's like fuck this team. If Fields doesn't work out I'm done.

[cblaz11]

Leave it to Bearsa fans and media to make up a rumor that Pace is getting promoted then use the rumor to trash the organization. Pace is not getting promoted….

[Moriarty]

That's where his level of competence ends.
He's already 1 level above it and they're thinking of making it 2.

You and everyone else complaining about promoting Pace are assuming identical skill sets required for the positions. I.e. if you're a good GM, you have to be a GREAT GM to be the President of Football Operations. Nothing could be further from the truth. These are completely different positions. A person can have the qualities of being a mediocre/average GM, but possess the long term strategic thinking/ FO personnel management skills that would make them an outstanding President. Don't conflate the two and assume promoting him is a fuck up. I'm really good at my job as a Global Account Manager. I can tell you right now, I do NOT possess the skills to be a Director of VP of Sales. Couldn't do it, don't want it, not my thing. It's not how my brain is wired, it's not what would get me out of bed in the morning.

Different levels definitely have very different skill sets.

Pace came up as a scout and made it through Director of Scouting & Director of Player Personnel with the Saints, so presumably he performed well as a scout there.
Here, he has done well identifying late round talent.
So, he seems to have reasonable skill for Director of Scouting/Player Personnel jobs.

He has also shown himself to be bad at draft strategy, contract structure & financial management, HC selection and management, and broader strategic decisions.
IOW, fairly bad at the GM role.

Now, if you are considering him for a Head of Football ops job, which of those areas are going to be more relevant to that position?
College player evaluation (which he is good at)?
Or broad strategy and front office management (which he has been bad at)?

[o-pus #40 in B major]

That's where his level of competence ends.
He's already 1 level above it and they're thinking of making it 2.

You and everyone else complaining about promoting Pace are assuming identical skill sets required for the positions. I.e. if you're a good GM, you have to be a GREAT GM to be the President of Football Operations. Nothing could be further from the truth. These are completely different positions. A person can have the qualities of being a mediocre/average GM, but possess the long term strategic thinking/ FO personnel management skills that would make them an outstanding President. Don't conflate the two and assume promoting him is a fuck up. I'm really good at my job as a Global Account Manager. I can tell you right now, I do NOT possess the skills to be a Director of VP of Sales. Couldn't do it, don't want it, not my thing. It's not how my brain is wired, it's not what would get me out of bed in the morning.

Exactly.

I was a real-time generation dispatcher for an electric power company. The VP I worked for couldn't have done my job without getting a decade of experience first... of course I didn't have the stuff do do his job, either. But if either one of us made a serious mistake in our jobs it would have cost our company big-time. $$$$$$

Both positions are critical to organizational success but they not interchangeable.

[The Marshall Plan]

You and everyone else complaining about promoting Pace are assuming identical skill sets required for the positions. I.e. if you're a good GM, you have to be a GREAT GM to be the President of Football Operations. Nothing could be further from the truth. These are completely different positions. A person can have the qualities of being a mediocre/average GM, but possess the long term strategic thinking/ FO personnel management skills that would make them an outstanding President. Don't conflate the two and assume promoting him is a fuck up. I'm really good at my job as a Global Account Manager. I can tell you right now, I do NOT possess the skills to be a Director of VP of Sales. Couldn't do it, don't want it, not my thing. It's not how my brain is wired, it's not what would get me out of bed in the morning.

Different levels definitely have very different skill sets.

Pace came up as a scout and made it through Director of Scouting & Director of Player Personnel with the Saints, so presumably he performed well as a scout there.
Here, he has done well identifying late round talent.
So, he seems to have reasonable skill for Director of Scouting/Player Personnel jobs.

He has also shown himself to be bad at draft strategy, contract structure & financial management, HC selection and management, and broader strategic decisions.
IOW, fairly bad at the GM role.

Now, if you are considering him for a Head of Football ops job, which of those areas are going to be more relevant to that position?
College player evaluation (which he is good at)?
Or broad strategy and front office management (which he has been bad at)?

I agree with all of this.

What I will say is that Pace is probably really good at laughing at George and Virginia's jokes.

When Virginia has a senior moment and calls Ryan Pace George or Michael, he probably plays along and says hang on Mom I'll get your slippers.

That's the only possible explanation here.

[HurricaneBear]

If the Bears are confident they can get Harbaugh they fire Pace. If they don't think they can, I unfortunately see Pace staying. I won't hate it as we could do worse, but it's obvious he isn't the guy.

I can't imagine someone in Halas hall hasn't made a friendly off the record call to their top coaching choices already to gauge interest.

[dplank]

I'm eagerly anticipating the Monday presser, and the exact moment we all see Ryan Pace sitting next to George and realize that he's not going anywhere.

[malk]

Or you could look at it a different way: Pace had to spend his first few seasons rebuilding the team, especially the defense from the worst it had ever been in the franchise's history, and over the last four seasons the Bears' record with Pace at GM is 34-30 with 2 playoff appearances.

Fwiw I'm fine with the Jenkins pick and thing the whole injury thing is a bit of a canard. I didn't love the value of it (5th and 6th are interchangeable imo but losing the 3rd hurt. But it was quite a move up in the 2nd and that's what it takes so it's fine. As for evaluating them overall, I just won't do it after one year, it's a fool's errand.

On the quoted bit, first few seasons rebuilding the team I can accept. But we went 12-4 in 2018 and from that side we've lost the DC who was a big part of it and moved on from our QB, leading rusher, and will have none of those receivers on the roster next year. At most we'll have two of the offensive line left and there's a chance that we'll only have Cohen and Wihtehair left from that entire offence. Admittedly it wasn't a great offence but if we're talking rebuilding over his first few seasons it wasn't much on offence! But the re-rebuild has started since then and there are some promising pieces, finally, after seven years.

From the great defence we had then we'll have Goldman, Mack, Smith and Jackson. Plus Trevathan but not the same Trevathan. The rebuild from there has seen us, after seven years, with holes on the d line, at ILB, at corner (or a rook with a few games that we're projecting massively from) and at safety. And the defence is much older in established positions. In 2018 most of the defence was 24-27 with only a couple of players at 29. Now Quinn, Mack and Trevathan are into their 30s and only Jackson, Goldman and Johnson as established players in their 20s.

So in reality there was a rebuild but the offence wasn't good enough so it was wasted and because Pace goes all in every year nothing was held back to reload on the fly. Leading to our situation without much cap space a fewer draft picks. Those two playoff appearances were of a 2018 team that is gone and a 2020 team that was the dying embers of the 2018 team.

The rebuild actually starts here, seven years late.

[dplank]

Agree that the risk reward was equitable. Bears were not in a position to do much better..and Jenkins when healthy is a stud.. We'll see this coming year..all else is just a guess..

Weren't in a position to do better?! Lol they traded up to be in that position!

If Jenkins becomes a stud OT, its a good pick and mostly water under the bridge, but I don't think it was the best move they could have made, and hindsight confirms that.

Hindsight really doesn't confirm that. You're violating your own rules here of ignoring sunk cost in favor of future outlook IMO. If Jenkins becomes a stud, then it was most likely the best move they could have made.

[The Marshall Plan]

I'm eagerly anticipating the Monday presser, and the exact moment we all see Ryan Pace sitting next to George and realize that he's not going anywhere.

Ever see Scanners?

[The Cooler King]

Weren't in a position to do better?! Lol they traded up to be in that position!

If Jenkins becomes a stud OT, its a good pick and mostly water under the bridge, but I don't think it was the best move they could have made, and hindsight confirms that.

Hindsight really doesn't confirm that. You're violating your own rules here of ignoring sunk cost in favor of future outlook IMO. If Jenkins becomes a stud, then it was most likely the best move they could have made.

Not sure I'm following the sunk cost comment.

Okay maybe it's too soon to claim hindsight. Maybe he becomes a 10x All Pro. But even if I assume he is going to be a borderline Pro Bowl OT (generous assumption at thi stage), I'd take sitting pat and grabbing Creed Humphrey as hindsight (also would have liked Humphrey at the time). And I liked Jenkins at the time too! But knowing what we know now...

[TheWorldBreaker]

A GM absolutely can and should evaluate the impact of a player when evaluating wether to make a trade up, especially in the earlier rounds.

Pace gambled on him being a stud but he was a guy that needed back surgery and started two games before hurting his shoulder. So a year of his four year rookie deal was wasted.

It’s not just about the player the player becomes but how they perform on their rookie deal and the cap flexibility they provide while being on the rookie contract.

Yes a GM absolutely can and should evaluate the impact of a player when evaluating whether to make a trade up, especially in the earlier rounds but that's not what you said. You said he should decide whether to trade up based on whether the player was 'the missing piece to the Bears being a Super Bowl contender'. A GM has to consider the long-term not just one season. So what if Jenkins ended up having to have back surgery and missed most of his rookie year? If ends up a long-term top tier OT then it won't matter one jot. Any young player can get injured and wind up missing time during their rookie contract. That makes no difference to whether they were a good draft pick. It's the big picture that matters. Heck, Mahomes sat until the last meaningless regular season game of his rookie season and Jadeveon Clowney played just 4 games in his. Jenkins could yet end up being a player that helps the Bears to become a Super Bowl contender. Only time will tell.

As for Angelo, I was all for firing him because in the latter years of his tenure his drafts were consistently poor and he made a big trade for Cutler but never surrounded him with any talent. Cutler's offensive line and receiving talent was worse than anything Pace has given Nagy to work with.

In his last 7 drafts (the same number Pace has had) Angelo drafted who of any major note? Devin Hester, Greg Olsen who he stupidly traded away, and Matt Forte. Were there any others that made a Pro Bowl? Corey Graham as a special teamer if I recall correctly?

During those 7 drafts he took 2 OTs in the first round, Chris Williams 14th in 2008 and Gabe Carimi 29th in 2011. Both had injury issues and neither was very good. Williams got shunted to guard and Carimi only lasted 2 years in Chicago. All his other OL were 3rd day picks with Josh Beekman being the highest drafted with the 130th pick in R4. Other than that Angelo just threw picks 200 or lower on prospects with only 7th rounders Lance Louis and J'Marcus Webb actually playing any games. Eurgh!

As for WRs, his highest pick was Earl Bennett in the 2008 3rd round (Pick 70) and the only other one who even played any games was Johnny Knox who was drafted in the 5th round the following year (Pick 99).

The team was far from already stacked at either OL or WR in any of those years. These were major positions of need.

Angelo had to go and you could argue his firing was overdue.

Yes, because competent GMs take a comprehensive view of the roster in the future instead of myopically focusing on one player. The useless Dalton signing caused cap issues which created even more needs on the roster.

The reason bums like Kindle Vildor not only had to play but start was because of moves like that.

You don’t have to make the case for Angelo being fired. He did a number of incompetent decisions but he was still more successful than Pace.

And Pace drafted White in the first round-bust. Traded up in the second for Miller another bust.

Never drafted an offensive lineman in the first round. Picked Daniels and Whitehair in the second. Neither have been very good this year, traded up for Jenkins who missed most of the season and looked like garbage today. Picked another offensive lineman in the fifth who also had a rough game today.


Pace might have tried to get WR talent a little earlier than Angelo but he’s had about as much success there in the draft because he’s such a demonstrably poor evaluator of offensive talent.

[RichH55]

The moron who missed out on Watson gets promoted.

Sergeant Dukins finally made Detective?!?!?

Good for him man - he tried to pass that test a bunch of times.

[HisRoyalSweetness]

Pace oversaw the renovations and upgrades at Halas Hall. I could see them keeping him on to oversee the new stadium development assuming that is actually going to happen, especially if the reports of Phillips retiring soon are true. Pace could spend a year or two being mentored by Phillips while the groundwork is laid before seeing the project through to completion.

[mshu7]

Adam Jahns said on the Hoge & Jahns podcast tonight that he thinks Ryan Pace is “out - out”. Meaning, he is not promoted or retained in any capacity. Adam Hoge agreed with him.



Go check out the rest of the thread.

I think Pace is getting FIRED.