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The Cooler King
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Starting a separate thread from Nagy.

I've personally viewed Pace/Nagy as a package deal for a few years. But I recognize that wasn't necessarily the truth, just my personal feeling.

Anyways, what do people think? Is there any justification for Pace out living Nagy if Nagy gets fired? Is a 100% house cleaning in order? Every last assistant and assistant GM and everyone gone?
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I personally don't think the team is constructed that horribly. There is a lot of talent on the team. I think the problem is that none of them are being put into situations that allow them to succeed. They aren't being developed in a scheme that allows them to play fast. It's my understanding that the McCaskey's love Ryan Pace, and most likely have given him a long leash. I think Pace gets one more HC hire.
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IMO, the roster's a mess - particularly on offense, with little draft capital and salary cap issues. When you have to call a 39 year old has-been on his fishing boat and ask him to be your starting left tackle, you've failed as a GM. That the right tackle is a hack who was cast out by the Seahawks is another indictment of Pace. The future with him calling the shots is BLEAK at best.

That said, I think they MAY give Pace one more shot - it's possible that the new head coach will have more authority over personnel than Nagy. A Brian Daboll, for example, is likely going to want more say over personnel - especially if he has to work with a GM who has been on the job and has assembled a subpar group on offense.

If it were me, I'd get rid of everyone. Pace doesn't deserve another crack at hiring a head coach - he has never produced a playoff win and has one winning season in 7 years. That's not defensible. That he thought Matt Nagy was the guy to bring the Bears' offense into the 21st century is yet ANOTHER indictment of the struggling GM.

The football operation is a hot mess and will only get worse with Nagy AND Pace at the helm.
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I would absolutely, positively not allow Pace to choose another HC. No friggin way. Pace has had his moments, but no playoff wins in 7 years is the key takeaway with him. Wins are not player stats, they are coach/GM stats. Pace gets credit for building a pretty solid defense from nothing and he's hit on some draft picks - and landed us Fields. He's not a complete buffoon like Nagy is. But he hasn't been good enough, and given where he's placed us with our cap situation the on field product should be a lot better than it is.

He hired Nagy and he didn't fire Nagy last offseason when, IMO, he should have. So now that Nagy has full on imploded, I'm sorry but that's on Pace who should have corrected this issue 9 months ago when he had the chance to do so.
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I was a Pace defender, but not any more. This roster is in shambles and draft capital is limited. Buh-Bye!!
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dplank wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 10:34 am I would absolutely, positively not allow Pace to choose another HC. No friggin way. Pace has had his moments, but no playoff wins in 7 years is the key takeaway with him. Wins are not player stats, they are coach/GM stats. Pace gets credit for building a pretty solid defense from nothing and he's hit on some draft picks - and landed us Fields. He's not a complete buffoon like Nagy is. But he hasn't been good enough, and given where he's placed us with our cap situation the on field product should be a lot better than it is.

He hired Nagy and he didn't fire Nagy last offseason when, IMO, he should have. So now that Nagy has full on imploded, I'm sorry but that's on Pace who should have corrected this issue 9 months ago when he had the chance to do so.
OK you're right. Pace can't stay unless they bring in someone above him to pick the next coach. As a player-picker I think Pace is good enough. ;Getting JF1 was huge... he had to pull it off, and he did. He's the one who kept the 5 TEs (I really like), regardless of whether Nagy will use them. And he's the one who brought in the speed that Nagy almost certainly asked him to acquire. Monty is a gem and it looks like Herbert is too. He drafted to promising OL and I don't think it would be wise to write off Jenkins just yet (I'm pretty sure you agree). Borom might be a real gem... I know some will try to write him off as a low-round pick, but Pace and his team said they had a 2nd day ranking on him - that appears correct. Also I've been hard on Williams too... but I'm starting to think that was a great acquisition. The guy can block (not that we saw it yesterday), and I can only dream about what a decent play caller could do with him.
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The Cooler King wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 9:25 am Starting a separate thread from Nagy.

I've personally viewed Pace/Nagy as a package deal for a few years. But I recognize that wasn't necessarily the truth, just my personal feeling.

Anyways, what do people think? Is there any justification for Pace out living Nagy if Nagy gets fired? Is a 100% house cleaning in order? Every last assistant and assistant GM and everyone gone?
Most teams would have fired him for bungling the 2017 draft and making an unnecessary trade up for a bust at QB.

Beyond that his cap and draft management has been terrible leaving numerous holes on the roster.

There is absolutely no justification for letting Pace pick a 3rd coach after his first two failed.
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IE wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 11:29 am
dplank wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 10:34 am I would absolutely, positively not allow Pace to choose another HC. No friggin way. Pace has had his moments, but no playoff wins in 7 years is the key takeaway with him. Wins are not player stats, they are coach/GM stats. Pace gets credit for building a pretty solid defense from nothing and he's hit on some draft picks - and landed us Fields. He's not a complete buffoon like Nagy is. But he hasn't been good enough, and given where he's placed us with our cap situation the on field product should be a lot better than it is.

He hired Nagy and he didn't fire Nagy last offseason when, IMO, he should have. So now that Nagy has full on imploded, I'm sorry but that's on Pace who should have corrected this issue 9 months ago when he had the chance to do so.
OK you're right. Pace can't stay unless they bring in someone above him to pick the next coach. As a player-picker I think Pace is good enough. ;Getting JF1 was huge... he had to pull it off, and he did. He's the one who kept the 5 TEs (I really like), regardless of whether Nagy will use them. And he's the one who brought in the speed that Nagy almost certainly asked him to acquire. Monty is a gem and it looks like Herbert is too. He drafted to promising OL and I don't think it would be wise to write off Jenkins just yet (I'm pretty sure you agree). Borom might be a real gem... I know some will try to write him off as a low-round pick, but Pace and his team said they had a 2nd day ranking on him - that appears correct. Also I've been hard on Williams too... but I'm starting to think that was a great acquisition. The guy can block (not that we saw it yesterday), and I can only dream about what a decent play caller could do with him.
If the bring in a new President or VP of football operations or whatever it would be called (which they should do but won’t) he’s going to want his own guys, so Pace will be gone.

Trading up for Fields was a good move but an obvious one.

Rating Adam Shaheen higher than George Kittle, trading up for Anthony Miller, Kevin White, trading up for a college right tackle that was off many teams boards and having no backup plan if he wasn’t your starting left tackle, not good moves.

Signing players like Mike Glennon, Jimmy Graham and Dalton to much bigger contracts than they’d get elsewhere. Thinking Mike Glennon was a starting caliber QB, getting fleeced by the Jaguars in the Foles trade, etc, etc.

Drafting Fields shouldn’t absolve him of his numerous horrible mistakes.
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I am 100% certain that hiring John Fox wasn't Pace's call beyond "and here's your new coach" by George and Ted via Ernie Accorsi.

It would take Pace confiding me over several beers telling me that he sought out Fox, a guy with whom he had no prior experience working, in 2015 for me to consider that the decision wasn't taken out of his hands entirely.

That doesn't necessarily mean that I think he deserves another bite at the apple, just that I don't hold him accountable for the hire.
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dplank wrote:I agree with Rich here
RichH55 wrote: Dplank is correct
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TheWorldBreaker wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 11:42 am
IE wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 11:29 am

OK you're right. Pace can't stay unless they bring in someone above him to pick the next coach. As a player-picker I think Pace is good enough. ;Getting JF1 was huge... he had to pull it off, and he did. He's the one who kept the 5 TEs (I really like), regardless of whether Nagy will use them. And he's the one who brought in the speed that Nagy almost certainly asked him to acquire. Monty is a gem and it looks like Herbert is too. He drafted to promising OL and I don't think it would be wise to write off Jenkins just yet (I'm pretty sure you agree). Borom might be a real gem... I know some will try to write him off as a low-round pick, but Pace and his team said they had a 2nd day ranking on him - that appears correct. Also I've been hard on Williams too... but I'm starting to think that was a great acquisition. The guy can block (not that we saw it yesterday), and I can only dream about what a decent play caller could do with him.
If the bring in a new President or VP of football operations or whatever it would be called (which they should do but won’t) he’s going to want his own guys, so Pace will be gone.

Trading up for Fields was a good move but an obvious one.

Rating Adam Shaheen higher than George Kittle, trading up for Anthony Miller, Kevin White, trading up for a college right tackle that was off many teams boards and having no backup plan if he wasn’t your starting left tackle, not good moves.

Signing players like Mike Glennon, Jimmy Graham and Dalton to much bigger contracts than they’d get elsewhere. Thinking Mike Glennon was a starting caliber QB, getting fleeced by the Jaguars in the Foles trade, etc, etc.

Drafting Fields shouldn’t absolve him of his numerous horrible mistakes.

Yeah - we all know the list of his misses. There were far more years ago and IMO the last few years have been a pretty good improvement. I don't mind him paying money for QBs if he expects the team to be competitive (and he should). A new operations guy might want his own GM for sure - but I wouldn't be surprised at all if such a guy evaluated Pace's evolution and decided to keep him for his strengths (and maybe surround him with some others to address a few blind spots).
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IE wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 11:59 am
Yeah - we all know the list of his misses. There were far more years ago and IMO the last few years have been a pretty good improvement. I don't mind him paying money for QBs if he expects the team to be competitive (and he should). A new operations guy might want his own GM for sure - but I wouldn't be surprised at all if such a guy evaluated Pace's evolution and decided to keep him for his strengths (and maybe surround him with some others to address a few blind spots).

Pace's area of failure have been:

  • Falling in love with players in the draft/Missing often on those 'must-have' picks/Trading picks away
  • Bad cap management
  • Bad high price FA acquisitions
  • Dreadfully bad HC selection
So recently:
  • Hasn't made another HC move. May not have had the pull to ditch Nagy after last year, but if he did, he failed there, too.
  • This year he didn't really even have the money available to make bad splashy FA moves, because of the cap management issue.
  • His cap situation is a mess. And even with what he did have to work with: He let Fuller and Leno go, giving up the 2 comp picks they would have been worth after another year, and causing huge problems at their respective positions. He kept Graham, who's so important that he's getting 14 snaps/game (1/3 of his typical for his career) and who won't net a comp pick, because no one is going to pay him enough next year.
  • His draft had TWO tradeups, giving away a 1st and a 3rd to do them, one of which is already blowing up badly.

I don't see any evolution at all.
Last edited by Moriarty on Mon Sep 27, 2021 12:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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IE wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 11:59 am
TheWorldBreaker wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 11:42 am

If the bring in a new President or VP of football operations or whatever it would be called (which they should do but won’t) he’s going to want his own guys, so Pace will be gone.

Trading up for Fields was a good move but an obvious one.

Rating Adam Shaheen higher than George Kittle, trading up for Anthony Miller, Kevin White, trading up for a college right tackle that was off many teams boards and having no backup plan if he wasn’t your starting left tackle, not good moves.

Signing players like Mike Glennon, Jimmy Graham and Dalton to much bigger contracts than they’d get elsewhere. Thinking Mike Glennon was a starting caliber QB, getting fleeced by the Jaguars in the Foles trade, etc, etc.

Drafting Fields shouldn’t absolve him of his numerous horrible mistakes.

Yeah - we all know the list of his misses. There were far more years ago and IMO the last few years have been a pretty good improvement. I don't mind him paying money for QBs if he expects the team to be competitive (and he should). A new operations guy might want his own GM for sure - but I wouldn't be surprised at all if such a guy evaluated Pace's evolution and decided to keep him for his strengths (and maybe surround him with some others to address a few blind spots).
Ryan Pace and the Glennon family were literally the only ones that thought Glennon was a starting caliber QB in the NFL. It was a horrible and inexcusable signing.

I would be astonished if someone came in and looked at all of the holes the team has, the money allocated to certain players, the lack of draft capital and thought the guy responsible for it should stay.

“You had one of the worst offensive lines in the NFL and a rookie QB, we want you on our team!”
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I'm not going to argue about it. I see the point you guys are making but don't think it is that straight forward and I do believe the mistakes are skewed more to the past than the current. But I already agreed with Plank that he's probably got to go along with Nagy so it doesn't matter how vehement we are about it.
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thunderspirit wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 11:58 am I am 100% certain that hiring John Fox wasn't Pace's call beyond "and here's your new coach" by George and Ted via Ernie Accorsi.

It would take Pace confiding me over several beers telling me that he sought out Fox, a guy with whom he had no prior experience working, in 2015 for me to consider that the decision wasn't taken out of his hands entirely.

That doesn't necessarily mean that I think he deserves another bite at the apple, just that I don't hold him accountable for the hire.
I actually give him a complete pass for his first year. I don't think he was behind a whole lot of anything. You'll never convince me that he had an option to hire anyone other than Fox.
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TheWorldBreaker wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 12:31 pm Ryan Pace and the Glennon family were literally the only ones that thought Glennon was a starting caliber QB in the NFL. It was a horrible and inexcusable signing.
I appreciate a good hot take and all... but this just isn't true. Teams were trying to trade for the guy in 2016 but the Bucs were rumored to want a 2nd round pick.

Fox wanted no part in continuing with Jay. He wanted a steady if not boring QB who would do what he was supposed to do and not take risks. Mike Glennon, on paper, fit that bill. Pocket passer, careful with the ball...he had all of the appearance of a guy who could manage the game and compliment a defense.

People forget that by many accounts, Glennon was the #2 rated FA quarterback behind...Jay Cutler. (Cousins had been franchised, Romo retired, and Fox had already had his fill of Hoyer and Barkley). It wasn't a great year to need a FA QB when 3 of the top guys were guys you were letting walk.

Pace reportedly consulted with Sean Payton and some of the Saints staff about Glennon and Payton told him he thought he was worth the risk. You can argue that Pace overpaid (he did) but it wasn't absurd for a starting QB salary. Even so, Adam Schefter kinda screwed the Bears when he reported at the onset of FA that Glennon should get between 13-15 million per year.
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Glennon had a little over 4,000 yards, 30 TDs to 15 INTs and a 83.5 rating in 18 starts his 3 years with Tampa. People seem to forget that. He did take 56 sacks during that time, so the slow footed giraffe context was already there.
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If given enough time, Pace might be an adequate GM.
So might whoever replaces him.

But here's the thing. There are no sure fire fixes out there waiting. It's all a gamble.

Do you have more faith in the guy who has shown some/middling success and is still young and learning, or a guy with no experience running a team?
Or do you opt for a re-tread?

I think the keep-making-changes approach has proven unproductive in place like Detroit, Jets, etc. It just doesn't seem like that lottery ticket ever pays off.
Turnover begets turnover.

I'm not arguing that Pace is good, and he definitely hired Nagy, but you have to wonder what a really skilled coach might have been able to do with some of these players.
Chicken/Egg we may never know.

My wish, let Pace make one more hire.
My prediction. Pace makes one more hire.
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Agreed there are no surefire fixes. And especially from a fan perspective we're trying our best to read a situation where we don't have a front seat view except the end product.

I guess what I'd add is that just 6 months ago the big arguement was about this collaborative effort the Nagy/Pace team had. Granted I don't expect total honestity and expect fluff, but there was so little other defense of that pairing. Could Pace figure it all out and eventually overcome his weaknesses? Yea, but are we in the most favorable situation without a clean slate?
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wab wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 1:13 pm
TheWorldBreaker wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 12:31 pm Ryan Pace and the Glennon family were literally the only ones that thought Glennon was a starting caliber QB in the NFL. It was a horrible and inexcusable signing.
I appreciate a good hot take and all... but this just isn't true. Teams were trying to trade for the guy in 2016 but the Bucs were rumored to want a 2nd round pick.

Fox wanted no part in continuing with Jay. He wanted a steady if not boring QB who would do what he was supposed to do and not take risks. Mike Glennon, on paper, fit that bill. Pocket passer, careful with the ball...he had all of the appearance of a guy who could manage the game and compliment a defense.

People forget that by many accounts, Glennon was the #2 rated FA quarterback behind...Jay Cutler. (Cousins had been franchised, Romo retired, and Fox had already had his fill of Hoyer and Barkley). It wasn't a great year to need a FA QB when 3 of the top guys were guys you were letting walk.

Pace reportedly consulted with Sean Payton and some of the Saints staff about Glennon and Payton told him he thought he was worth the risk. You can argue that Pace overpaid (he did) but it wasn't absurd for a starting QB salary. Even so, Adam Schefter kinda screwed the Bears when he reported at the onset of FA that Glennon should get between 13-15 million per year.
Were teams really trying to trade a second or was Tampa trying to create trade buzz to fleece a team?

He was an incredibly slow footed QB on a roster that was rebuilding, it was dumb and I recall most Bears fans being annoyed at the signing.

Burl -If given enough time Nagy might develop into a good head coach. There is no sure thing, so do you go with a guy who hasn’t lost the locker room during tough times and made the playoffs 2 out of 3 years, or a complete unknown or retread that has already failed.

Same logic but I doubt many will agree.

Even though Pace continually over paying in free agency and in trades, missing on players he trades up for, etc are the GM equivalents of Nagy’s play calling/scheme mistakes.

What you’re doing is basically the equivalent of playing scared. Something bad could happen if we’re aggressive so better to be really conservative and not really do anything and hope we survive. That rarely works out.

Right now this regime isn’t championship caliber (what team would say we need to get our Franchise back on track, let’s bring in Ryan Pace if he were available?). Maybe they can turn it around before the end of the season.

But if not and if the McCaskey’s want to win SuperBowls they have to be bold and aggressive. And have some standards of excellence.
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Pace has been a disaster of Nagy-ish proportions IMSO. We've won seven games a season while Pace has treated each year as a balls-out effort to win the SB. He's built an old, bad roster while robbing us of the future picks we'll need to turn it around.

He lacks the same executive function, I suspect, as Nagy. The ability to step back and say "Well, this is a shitshow," and then to figure out what to keep, what to scrap, and how to get where they want to go. Nagy might have given his rookie QB the dumbest game plan I've seen since the run-n-shoot. Pace traded up for that rookie, then sabotaged the line in front of him and the secondary that might have kept the pressure off.

They each continue to act like rookies, following the only playbook they know, mistaking tactics for strategy.

Enough.
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That there's a small, yet relatively fervent, cult around Ryan Pace amazes me. There's no real case to be made on his behalf, unless one thinks 1 winning season out of 7, with no playoff wins, is "good." He's been given more lives than any GM in the current era - allowed to trade up TWICE within 5 years to draft a QB in the first round. Allowed to leverage significant draft capital for Khalil Mack. Now folks think he should get to hire ANOTHER head coach.

The football operation needs a reset - a fresh set of eyes and a fresh approach. Hire Joe Schoen and Brian Daboll from the Buffalo Bills to replace Pace and Nagy...and don't look back.
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Artbest wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 2:42 pm That there's a small, yet relatively fervent, cult around Ryan Pace amazes me. There's no real case to be made on his behalf, unless one thinks 1 winning season out of 7, with no playoff wins, is "good." He's been given more lives than any GM in the current era - allowed to trade up TWICE within 5 years to draft a QB in the first round. Allowed to leverage significant draft capital for Khalil Mack. Now folks think he should get to hire ANOTHER head coach.

The football operation needs a reset - a fresh set of eyes and a fresh approach. Hire Joe Schoen and Brian Daboll from the Buffalo Bills to replace Pace and Nagy...and don't look back.
Explaining and or understanding the logic behind why he may have made certain moves in the past is...a cult?
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Replace "cult" with "die-hards" and it is a reasonable post. He didn't really mean literal cult.

It wasn't my post but there's enough word parsing around here, IMO.
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I don't think I can be considered a Pace die Hard, but I am probably somewhat forgiving in many areas. I think many overstate weaknesses and fail to understand where he has had strengths. But I am totally comfortable moving on and a huge part of it is after 7 years the totality of the product matter and not parsing relatively minor moves and justifying them or not. I "get" some of his mistakes and they are in many ways forgivable mistakes, but it's not enough at this stage.
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The Cooler King wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 3:02 pm I don't think I can be considered a Pace die Hard, but I am probably somewhat forgiving in many areas. I think many overstate weaknesses and fail to understand where he has had strengths. But I am totally comfortable moving on and a huge part of it is after 7 years the totality of the product matter and not parsing relatively minor moves and justifying them or not. I "get" some of his mistakes and they are in many ways forgivable mistakes, but it's not enough at this stage.
This is where I'm at.
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There are "explanations" for Pace's various decisions - but they ultimately fall flat in the face of what matters - results. The rationalizations in Pace's favor are pretty weak. "Cults "are often built around what adherents WANT something, or someone, to be, rather than what actually "is." Pace has been the Bears GM since 2015. 1 winning season. 2 .500 seasons. 2 playoff appearances, No playoff wins. Traded up for two QB's in the first round within 5 years. The roster is OLD. There are significant cap issues. The Bears once again will not have a first round pick in the upcoming draft. The mess we saw yesterday falls on Nagy AND Ryan Pace. That was the culmination of their "partnership." Can they save their jobs with a miraculous turnaround? Sure. If the turnaround doesn't transpire, will Nagy be fired and Pace retained? Possibly. Should Pace be retained under those circumstances? Absolutely not. There's zero reason to trust him.
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Same. He’s been given plenty of rope and has simply failed to deliver. I agree that constant change is a poor way to run a franchise, but here we are.
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The Bears way. Hire a firm to hire a GM and/or coach, instead of putting peeps in place that know that shit. I will be the first to say I do not know the personnel side of who would be available, but I love listening to Louis Riddick. He comes across as a guy who knows his shit, BUT, there he is on TV and not working for a team.

The hot assistant approach has not worked here that solidly. I want a guy, coach wise that knows his shit and wants to be here long term.
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Otis Day wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 4:06 pm The Bears way. Hire a firm to hire a GM and/or coach, instead of putting peeps in place that know that shit. I will be the first to say I do not know the personnel side of who would be available, but I love listening to Louis Riddick. He comes across as a guy who knows his shit, BUT, there he is on TV and not working for a team.

The hot assistant approach has not worked here that solidly. I want a guy, coach wise that knows his shit and wants to be here long term.
I feel like this begs the question a bit. If they can't hire the GM directly, how are they supposed to hire the guy to also make the hire? At some point they are relying on George's judgment and the level of short term consultancy help he'll he needs to answer the question is not a concrete thing.

I know Acorsi helped a bit with the coach search for Fox, but that was partially influenced at least partially by the fact they were trying to conduct both searches as fast as possible. And perhaps there is always some possibility that search ended up one in the same. But most reporting I've seen said it wasn't a package deal and it was simply a situation where Acorsi had some advance knowledge for Pace, but it was fully his hire.
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karhu wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 2:16 pm Pace has been a disaster of Nagy-ish proportions IMSO. We've won seven games a season while Pace has treated each year as a balls-out effort to win the SB. He's built an old, bad roster while robbing us of the future picks we'll need to turn it around.

He lacks the same executive function, I suspect, as Nagy. The ability to step back and say "Well, this is a shitshow," and then to figure out what to keep, what to scrap, and how to get where they want to go. Nagy might have given his rookie QB the dumbest game plan I've seen since the run-n-shoot. Pace traded up for that rookie, then sabotaged the line in front of him and the secondary that might have kept the pressure off.

They each continue to act like rookies, following the only playbook they know, mistaking tactics for strategy.

Enough.
I think Pace has been in large part a victim of the Nagy shit show more than anything else. Pace interviewed Nagy, and Nagy was able to talk a good game about football. But in the end he couldn't execute any of it. There was also no way for Pace to gauge how unbelievably stubborn or inflexible Nagy was going to be. In retrospect, and I posted it in another thread, I think Mitch was a good raw QB prospect, and Nagy completely fucked him up. None of the offensive players on the Bears roster have been put in an environment where they can succeed, and it's all been regressing since 2018. So to judge the talent of the roster through the lens of the Nagy offense is a little unfair to Pace.
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