Horsted (I guess it's my job to post this)

Moriarty · Thu Oct 21, 2021 11:20 am

IE wrote: ↑Thu Oct 21, 2021 11:10 am Loosely, it is all about Nagy & his use of players.

Yep.

I've been on that for years.

spudbear · Thu Oct 21, 2021 9:23 pm

Otis Day wrote: ↑Thu Oct 21, 2021 10:15 am Well, this thread certainly took a wrong turn, from Horsted to Perriman. Both fairly low on the depth chart.

It's somewhat related as the Bears could use some bigger bodies going out for passes. It's not only catching but downfield blocking. Jesper should be able to do a good job of that, don't know what we have in Perriman. Byrd is taking up space, and Goodwin has had a few moments but nothing memorable. Nagy had that PR they just picked up taking some snaps at WR.

Bears need to score points and the current set of receivers could use a little shaking up with players like Horsted and Perriman, if they're ready to play.

IE · Fri Oct 22, 2021 8:22 am

spudbear wrote: ↑Thu Oct 21, 2021 9:23 pm
Otis Day wrote: ↑Thu Oct 21, 2021 10:15 am Well, this thread certainly took a wrong turn, from Horsted to Perriman. Both fairly low on the depth chart.
It's somewhat related as the Bears could use some bigger bodies going out for passes. It's not only catching but downfield blocking. Jesper should be able to do a good job of that, don't know what we have in Perriman. Byrd is taking up space, and Goodwin has had a few moments but nothing memorable. Nagy had that PR they just picked up taking some snaps at WR.

Bears need to score points and the current set of receivers could use a little shaking up with players like Horsted and Perriman, if they're ready to play.

The big bodies thing is a real alternative to "separation" (although I would hope Perri with his speed could get behind the D all day long). Since ARob has been on the Bears he's lived on being a bigger body and making catches without a lot of separation.

If you can't get separation, you better have some other way to make sure you can catch the ball. Having Byrd or even Goodwin out there and running short routes where they can't get separation is foolish. They're going to lose contested catches or go nowhere. I think it is fair to say that is not how we envisioned/hoped they'd be used. I had dreams of 4 wide steaking toward the end zone and a quarterback athletic enough to buy time to get it to one of them.

Anyway, like I said in the original post, JF1 is clearly a very deliberate guy, and chooses his words carefully. When he describes Horsted as "always open" he means it. He means that if you throw the ball his way he's going to win & catch it and it doesn't matter who is around. That is a high compliment - and it wasn't accidental. All you need is eyes to know it's true. Good football teams are operated as meritocracies. That does not seem to be how Nagy operates.

HurricaneBear · Fri Oct 22, 2021 9:15 am

Grizzled wrote: ↑Thu Oct 21, 2021 9:02 am The Nagy offense wants a Kelce/Kittle type of TE. After catching a TD in Vegas, Horsted is MIA against the Pack although Kmet actually had a catch. When will the Bears effectively employ their TEs in the passing game?

Never.

Nagy preached and bitched and moaned about how important TE is to his offense.

This season is the best TE room he has had since being in Chicago.

The TE's are invisible and not even being deployed in any way that makes a lick of sense.

I mean, how hard is it in the red zone to put Jimmy G split wide on one side and throw him a jump ball every time he's one on one. He may be the best red zone threat in the history of the league. Sure he's lost speed. He hasn't lost size, strength or his ability to box guys out and high point a ball. He's a fucking monster of a man still. This should be simple.

Horsted has shown flashes multiple times and CLEARLY has a rapport with Fields. Maybe throw him out there? Or Jesse James for that matter who showed the same in preseason.

Hopefully last game will bode well for Kmet's future, but I doubt it. I won't be surprised if he gets 3 or less targets next game.

You'd think with the way Nagy has talked about TEs in this offense, they'd get as a group 15ish looks a game.

IE · Fri Oct 22, 2021 9:25 am

HurricaneBear wrote: ↑Fri Oct 22, 2021 9:15 am
Grizzled wrote: ↑Thu Oct 21, 2021 9:02 am The Nagy offense wants a Kelce/Kittle type of TE. After catching a TD in Vegas, Horsted is MIA against the Pack although Kmet actually had a catch. When will the Bears effectively employ their TEs in the passing game?
Never.

Nagy preached and bitched and moaned about how important TE is to his offense.

This season is the best TE room he has had since being in Chicago.

The TE's are invisible and not even being deployed in any way that makes a lick of sense.

I mean, how hard is it in the red zone to put Jimmy G split wide on one side and throw him a jump ball every time he's one on one. He may be the best red zone threat in the history of the league. Sure he's lost speed. He hasn't lost size, strength or his ability to box guys out and high point a ball. He's a fucking monster of a man still. This should be simple.

Horsted has shown flashes multiple times and CLEARLY has a rapport with Fields. Maybe throw him out there? Or Jesse James for that matter who showed the same in preseason.

Hopefully last game will bode well for Kmet's future, but I doubt it. I won't be surprised if he gets 3 or less targets next game.

You'd think with the way Nagy has talked about TEs in this offense, they'd get as a group 15ish looks a game.

Totally agree. It isn't in his DNA to deploy TEs the way we'd like (helping blocking but ALSO having them out there getting serious targets). It is almost like he thinks they can only block or they can only run routes - not both.

If you're throwing the ball 15 yards there is no way it should be going to Mooney or Goodwin. It should be going (at least a large part of the time) to the TEs. There should almost always be a TE up the seam against Cover 2, and those passes end up being much bigger plays that that 15 yard sideline cover 2 hole they always throw. Kmet needs to be developed and fine if he gets his 4-5 attempts a game as the #1. But unless Goodwin is 25 yards down field I don't want JF1 throwing to him (or Byrd). That's where I'd like to see James and Horsted. And Graham in the end zone for sure. HOW many end zone attempts as Graham gotten? Or all the TEs combined, actually.

The Cooler King · Fri Oct 22, 2021 9:38 am

While I'm upset with the decision to keep Graham based on how he's been used, I'm also at the point of wanting to just leave it behind and see what we can do with James and Horsted the rest of this season. James in particular seemed to have a training camp connection with Fields. Kmet, Horsted, and James have potential to be an average, but cost effective TE grouping in 2022, but I'd like to see it play out this season too. If that group is solid, Horsted is a cheap tender offer, James probably won't cost a huge amount to bring back, and Kmet is still cheap. Then you plow money into the WR corps, and do some line tinkering. RB is obviously well set for 2022, with perhaps a cheap RB3 add to replace Williams all that's needed.

IE · Fri Oct 22, 2021 10:30 am

The Cooler King wrote: ↑Fri Oct 22, 2021 9:38 am While I'm upset with the decision to keep Graham based on how he's been used, I'm also at the point of wanting to just leave it behind and see what we can do with James and Horsted the rest of this season. James in particular seemed to have a training camp connection with Fields. Kmet, Horsted, and James have potential to be an average, but cost effective TE grouping in 2022, but I'd like to see it play out this season too. If that group is solid, Horsted is a cheap tender offer, James probably won't cost a huge amount to bring back, and Kmet is still cheap. Then you plow money into the WR corps, and do some line tinkering. RB is obviously well set for 2022, with perhaps a cheap RB3 add to replace Williams all that's needed.

After Horsted's performance in that preseason game and some other evidence, if I'm another team in need of a receiving TE I outbid the Bears for the guy. The only way I want Horsted to stay on the Bears is if Nagy is launched. I like a lot of players on a lot of other teams - really enjoy watching good football players play. I'd rather watch him catch passes from Russ Wilson or Trevor Lawrence than sit and bitch about him not even being active on the high-powered Bear offense.

The Cooler King · Fri Oct 22, 2021 10:37 am

No need to compete with other teams. Just a straight tender off for 2022.

2023 would be a different story. So I guess you could discuss an early extension, but you'd also have a RFA tender in 2023 and 2024 the first year hell be totally unrestricted.

IE · Fri Oct 22, 2021 10:46 am

The Cooler King wrote: ↑Fri Oct 22, 2021 10:37 am No need to compete with other teams. Just a straight tender off for 2022.

2023 would be a different story. So I guess you could discuss an early extension, but you'd also have a RFA tender in 2023 and 2024 the first year hell be totally unrestricted.

You know more about this than me for sure.... I'm not much of a cap guy and usually glaze over when I start reading too much cap detail. lol

I thought he signed a deal just for '21 but he's showing as an ERFA. I still don't know how that works overall, but understand that playing time accrued is a big deal. Is that a reason why they're having him inactive? I mean good for him to make $7-800K for not playing. But it also sort of seems like a dis-incentive to play a guy even if he's needed.

The Cooler King · Fri Oct 22, 2021 11:09 am

Time on the 53 accrues service time. So being inactive GameDay doesn't affect that.

Basically less than 2 years you are an ERFA. Extend the tender, player signs and no one else can negotiate with them.

RFA is for guys with 3 years. Extend a tender offer and other teams can sign them to an offer sheet. They have to compensate you based on the level of the tender (1st, 2nd, or Original Round). Rarely see teams part with a draft pick to sign a RFA. In the case of Horsted, his original round is UDFA so there's no comp. So you gotta offer the higher 2nd round tender to deter teams from signing him to an offer sheet.

Theres a little more nuance than that surrounding how service time is calculated. And I'd frankly have to brush up myself on that nuance, but that's the 30,000 foot view.

Anyways, point being is they have got some control over Horsted. Mustipher falls into this same situation, along with a few others.

The Cooler King · Fri Oct 22, 2021 11:18 am

Full list for 2022:
ERFA: Crawford, Horsted, Mustipher, Simmons
RFA: Bars, Nall, Holtz

2022 projected tenders will be
1st Round: 5.4M
2nd: 3.9M
Original : 2.4
(forgot to specify that all those tenders also give you right of first refusal on any offer)

EFRA: vet minimum, 895k for each of those guys as 2 year vets.

I'd say maybe Bars could maybe get an RFA tender. The other 2 probably just bring them back with the vet minimum. The ERFA offer is guaranteed, so I see yes on Horsted and Mustipher and maybe on the other 2.

IE · Fri Oct 22, 2021 11:27 am

Thanks, bud - appreciated.

spudbear · Fri Oct 22, 2021 11:57 am

Sunday is National Tight End Day, so maybe Nagy will commemorate it and have Lazor call some more plays for the TE's.
Yeah right.
NFL.com had an article about Top Ten TE's, and like a dummy I looked through it to see if any Bears were listed. Yeah right. When is the last time the Bears had a TE that could be considered top 20? Booger Olsen?
The Lions TE Hockenson made the list at #8. Guess that's why James was available.