Game Balls and Horns - Wk 6 vs Packers

[Grizzled]

The Bears can file protests with the league regarding questionable ref calls. Of course I don't know what good this would do except get a hand slap for a ref.

Game Balls: Herbert, Quinn, Mack
Horns: The OL. The Offensive Scheme, totally ineffective once the scripted plays were run, no adjustments made

[Yogi da Bear]

I'd really like to hear some suggestions about SOLUTIONS for this ref problem. Does anyone have any ideas? I get it doesn't matter, but just curious how we could tackle this problem. It's been happening to us vs the Pack for so long now, I just have a hard time believing that they are just making innocent mistakes, this regularly, in favor of the same team, for this long.

If our season is over when we play the Packers later this season, how might we make a statement to the league about this? Looking at it from the McCaskey's perspective, who can actually do something about it - what suggestions would you have for them? I want the mcCaskey's to DO SOMETHING about it - and just saying "beat them" isn't an answer - I want games called FAIRLY regardless of the outcome.

My first thought is don't' show up for the next game. That's never happened before and we'd get so roasted and tagged as being quitters, etc by the talking heads - I get all that. It's a terrible look. THAT SAID, what a shot to the league that would be. It would be talked about incessantly and drive conversation around the problem. I'd create a video cutup of all the terrible calls over the last 10 years of Bears/Packers games, and every time someone called us out for not playing, i'd show them the tape. I feel like something dramatic needs to happen or there's simply no reason for things to actually change? Any better ideas or, more realistic ones since this will obviously never happen?

As bad as the calls for the Packers against the Bears have been, have you ever watched a Packer/Lion game? It's ten times worse. Hell, the Lions get screwed against everybody, including us. Remember Calvin Johnson's no game ending TD against us. I actually got on a Lion board to apologize for that one.

Much of it though is "most favorite QB" status for Rodgers (and before him Favre). Tom Brady gets a lot of those as well. Remember they had to make a whole new rule to justify a horrible call for Tom Brady's fumble. I don't think that you're ever going to get rid of that bias. They're NEVER going to call holding with the same alacrity against teams with most favorite QB status for instance. Hopefully, Justin Fields will get there one day. All leagues are always going to have that bias across all spectrums. Look at Michael Jordan. You aren't going to be able to affect that I don't think.

What can and should be addressed, however, are the blatant miscalls that don't affect their most favorite QB status, calls like the non-called offsides or the refusal to recognize Field's time out call. That's particularly egregious. How can you NOT see the QB calling a timeout? I think in these instances, you get together with teams who are similarly screwed like the Lions, seemingly perpetually. And you agree that you throw the red flag and pull your team off the field until the situation is addressed. I think it's better to lose by forfeit than to continue to lose because of crap like this. Now, the important thing is that teams that are not party to the game, should support the team doing this. Furthermore, and this is the real kicker, if you're a team benefiting from such a play, you bite the bullet and walk your team off in support as well. THAT would have the most impact on this, because I really believe that much of these horrendous calls aren't really the refs being bad, they're the refs being PAID. I think teams across the league should do this for the integrity of the game.

But I know I'm living in a pipedream and it will never happen. I'd still love to see it though. I really wish the Bears had forfeited that Calvin Johnson game. I don't want to win that way.

[Mikefive]

I'd really like to hear some suggestions about SOLUTIONS for this ref problem. Does anyone have any ideas? I get it doesn't matter, but just curious how we could tackle this problem. It's been happening to us vs the Pack for so long now, I just have a hard time believing that they are just making innocent mistakes, this regularly, in favor of the same team, for this long.

If our season is over when we play the Packers later this season, how might we make a statement to the league about this? Looking at it from the McCaskey's perspective, who can actually do something about it - what suggestions would you have for them? I want the mcCaskey's to DO SOMETHING about it - and just saying "beat them" isn't an answer - I want games called FAIRLY regardless of the outcome.

My first thought is don't' show up for the next game. That's never happened before and we'd get so roasted and tagged as being quitters, etc by the talking heads - I get all that. It's a terrible look. THAT SAID, what a shot to the league that would be. It would be talked about incessantly and drive conversation around the problem. I'd create a video cutup of all the terrible calls over the last 10 years of Bears/Packers games, and every time someone called us out for not playing, i'd show them the tape. I feel like something dramatic needs to happen or there's simply no reason for things to actually change? Any better ideas or, more realistic ones since this will obviously never happen?

I'm not sure there is a solution and I'm not trying to be snarky. When you have guys who have been former officials commenting on call replays that are in review that come back the other way, that's a pretty clear indication that judgement calls are just judgement calls.

When it comes to bad holding calls and stuff like that, those are just going to happen. I was a football official for a couple of years and there's a lot of subtle aspects to that job that make it an imperfect thing to do.

[dplank]

Bad calls are certainly going to happen, but when they keep happening in favor of one team and against another team, over a decade span of total consistency - there's a deeper issue. That's not just missing calls, that's cheating. And yes Yogi, the Lions get it even worse.

[HisRoyalSweetness]

I'd really like to hear some suggestions about SOLUTIONS for this ref problem. Does anyone have any ideas? I get it doesn't matter, but just curious how we could tackle this problem. It's been happening to us vs the Pack for so long now, I just have a hard time believing that they are just making innocent mistakes, this regularly, in favor of the same team, for this long.

Perhaps a simple potential solution is to make every play challengeable including non-calls. It's ridiculously inconsistent now with what can and cannot be challenged. Maybe even change the system to increase the number of challenges e.g. to 5 a game and allow teams to keep making challenges until they lose one (or perhaps two). Egregious errors from officials should not be accepted. They change the outcome of games.

(Oh, and I'm still seething from the phantom call on Knox's punt return TD against the Packers when Hester pretended the ball was coming his way. The player they called it on was nowhere near anyone; there was no hold. It was one of the greatest special teams plays in NFL history and a real momentum changer and the refs nullified it in a blatant case of dishonesty.)

[dplank]

I'd really like to hear some suggestions about SOLUTIONS for this ref problem. Does anyone have any ideas? I get it doesn't matter, but just curious how we could tackle this problem. It's been happening to us vs the Pack for so long now, I just have a hard time believing that they are just making innocent mistakes, this regularly, in favor of the same team, for this long.

Perhaps a simple potential solution is to make every play challengeable including non-calls. It's ridiculously inconsistent now with what can and cannot be challenged. Maybe even change the system to increase the number of challenges e.g. to 5 a game and allow teams to keep making challenges until they lose one (or perhaps two). Egregious errors from officials should not be accepted. They change the outcome of games.

(Oh, and I'm still seething from the phantom call on Knox's punt return TD against the Packers when Hester pretended the ball was coming his way. The player they called it on was nowhere near anyone; there was no hold. It was one of the greatest special teams plays in NFL history and a real momentum changer and the refs nullified it in a blatant case of dishonesty.)

Great idea HRS, I've been banging this drum for years now. They should allow a sky judge to quickly fix bogus calls and allow for coaches to challenge them. The idea that ref calls don't impact games is just insane to me, they absolutely can move a game one direction or another. They say "it's a game of inches", so of course if the refs tilt the field a certain way that can give a HUGE advantage.

Let the coaches decide whats important enough to challenge the play. I'm fine letting the calls all fall in favor of what's been called on the field unless it's super compelling - but there's just no reason why the missed offsides call couldn't be fixed! That play mattered a lot! We were moving and wouldve had a 3rd and short, instead they got the ball and drove and scored. The game shifted there monumentally, and it was 100%, without any shadow of a doubt, offsides.

[Mikefive]

I'd really like to hear some suggestions about SOLUTIONS for this ref problem. Does anyone have any ideas? I get it doesn't matter, but just curious how we could tackle this problem. It's been happening to us vs the Pack for so long now, I just have a hard time believing that they are just making innocent mistakes, this regularly, in favor of the same team, for this long.

Perhaps a simple potential solution is to make every play challengeable including non-calls. It's ridiculously inconsistent now with what can and cannot be challenged. Maybe even change the system to increase the number of challenges e.g. to 5 a game and allow teams to keep making challenges until they lose one (or perhaps two). Egregious errors from officials should not be accepted. They change the outcome of games.

(Oh, and I'm still seething from the phantom call on Knox's punt return TD against the Packers when Hester pretended the ball was coming his way. The player they called it on was nowhere near anyone; there was no hold. It was one of the greatest special teams plays in NFL history and a real momentum changer and the refs nullified it in a blatant case of dishonesty.)

But do we really want 5 hour games?

[HisRoyalSweetness]

Well you can get 3 reviews per team at the moment anyway, but you're limited on what can be challenged. It's the latter that's the biggest issue. The Bears missed out on the offside/interception, the Field's time out, Rogers grabbing a facemask, Fields getting hit in the head (should have been an ejection regardless of an offsetting penalty) etc. all because they could not be challenged.

Knowing that if you lose a challenge you won't get any more should deter teams from making frivolous ones. They could also offset time by not having so many automatic booth reviews e.g. in the final minutes of the first half.

[dplank]

Perhaps a simple potential solution is to make every play challengeable including non-calls. It's ridiculously inconsistent now with what can and cannot be challenged. Maybe even change the system to increase the number of challenges e.g. to 5 a game and allow teams to keep making challenges until they lose one (or perhaps two). Egregious errors from officials should not be accepted. They change the outcome of games.

(Oh, and I'm still seething from the phantom call on Knox's punt return TD against the Packers when Hester pretended the ball was coming his way. The player they called it on was nowhere near anyone; there was no hold. It was one of the greatest special teams plays in NFL history and a real momentum changer and the refs nullified it in a blatant case of dishonesty.)

But do we really want 5 hour games?

We wouldn't have 5 hour games, that's a total fallacy and the same cop out that the league has been using for years to avoid fixing the problem. At most you might increase average game time by 10-15 minutes, which would be absolutely worth it. They can and should put a time limit on the review process and if they can't clearly ID a mistake quickly then the call stands. Honestly I think they've gone too far trying to shorten the games already - letting the clock run on an out of bounds play was a poor move IMO.

I don't think folks get too upset by really close calls. But when you miss an obvious offside and it's clearly just some brain fart by the ref, or a lot of these bogus roughing calls...they should be able to challenge stuff like that. Like, how arbitrary and stupid is it that "all turnovers are reviewed", but then they just arbitrarily decide to tie their own hands on that review by not addressing the obvious off sides play - which Fields very clearly saw as did every other player on the field (they all kinda stood there waiting for the flag), and he thought he had a free play! But they can't fix that?? That's just dumb.

[IE]

LOL 5 hour games. How about they just play commercials during reviews? It will net out to nothing.

[The Marshall Plan]

The game was fucking bullshit and I've been pissed all week about it.

I believe it was @dplank that was saying during Discord to just walk off the field.

I think that's a great idea. Raise awareness when it's fucking rigged.

It's not even like some of them were close. On the INT the Packer jumped the ball by a solid second.

It's rigged.

[Mikefive]

But do we really want 5 hour games?

We wouldn't have 5 hour games, that's a total fallacy and the same cop out that the league has been using for years to avoid fixing the problem. At most you might increase average game time by 10-15 minutes, which would be absolutely worth it. They can and should put a time limit on the review process and if they can't clearly ID a mistake quickly then the call stands. Honestly I think they've gone too far trying to shorten the games already - letting the clock run on an out of bounds play was a poor move IMO.

I don't think folks get too upset by really close calls. But when you miss an obvious offside and it's clearly just some brain fart by the ref, or a lot of these bogus roughing calls...they should be able to challenge stuff like that. Like, how arbitrary and stupid is it that "all turnovers are reviewed", but then they just arbitrarily decide to tie their own hands on that review by not addressing the obvious off sides play - which Fields very clearly saw as did every other player on the field (they all kinda stood there waiting for the flag), and he thought he had a free play! But they can't fix that?? That's just dumb.

Don't think I don't sympathize with your POV. I certainly do. If they can "make every call challengeable" and stay within your 10-15 minute extra window, I'd be OK with that.

[HisRoyalSweetness]

Oh and a game ball for whichever wit updated Wikipedia to name Aaron Rogers as the owner of the Chicago Bears (widely reported in post game shows but no longer up on Wikipedia).

[RichH55]

It's rigged now?

Really?

[Bears Whiskey Nut]

It's rigged now?

Really?

It's not rigged. But if you go back and look at the propensity for referees to call penalties in favor of the Packers vs. against them, it's horribly lopsided. The referees on Sunday were atrocious, even you have to agree with that. You can't miss the calls that they did, and be an NFL referee. Unfortunately a lot of the calls that they screwed up were drive killers for the Bears. Rich, even you have to admit that NO HOLDING calls on the Packers Sunday against a front four of Mack, Hicks, Goldman, and Quinn seems a little ridiculous. The Refs giving the Packers a first down on that running play was down right egregious. As a Bears fan, in your one home game a year against the Packers, to have a officiating performance like that generates a visceral response.

[G08]

It's rigged now?

Really?

Research the disparity in calls across the NFL and look at where Green Bay ranks. This isn't some cockamamie tack.

[dplank]

For me Whiskey it's not really about one game - you can easily wave off any game as "the refs had a bad day". But if you look at hallmarks of math, probability and statistics, then you understand that over a long span of data collection things should normalize to their statistical probabilities. If they don't, something is up. And in this instance, the Packers have been getting these types of calls year after year, for decades now, against us and against the Lions and others. It's absolutely rigged IMO, I can't figure any other explanation for it. Even the "Jordan calls" stuff that Erin gets only goes so far here. Yes, he'll get the benefit of every call and I can live with that. But to not call obvious off sides on the defense? No. They can't take it that far, they are getting calls based on their JERSEY not just because of Erin. I honestly believe that the league has decided to tilt games in GB's favor to keep them relevant as an all time historic team in an absolutely tiny market.

[The Marshall Plan]

For me Whiskey it's not really about one game - you can easily wave off any game as "the refs had a bad day". But if you look at hallmarks of math, probability and statistics, then you understand that over a long span of data collection things should normalize to their statistical probabilities. If they don't, something is up. And in this instance, the Packers have been getting these types of calls year after year, for decades now, against us and against the Lions and others. It's absolutely rigged IMO, I can't figure any other explanation for it. Even the "Jordan calls" stuff that Erin gets only goes so far here. Yes, he'll get the benefit of every call and I can live with that. But to not call obvious off sides on the defense? No. They can't take it that far, they are getting calls based on their JERSEY not just because of Erin. I honestly believe that the league has decided to tilt games in GB's favor to keep them relevant as an all time historic team in an absolutely tiny market.

Fucking A.

It’s rigged.

No different than a carnival game.

Anybody who doubts this possibility should look into the Kings vs Lakers series years ago.

[Bears Whiskey Nut]

For me Whiskey it's not really about one game - you can easily wave off any game as "the refs had a bad day". But if you look at hallmarks of math, probability and statistics, then you understand that over a long span of data collection things should normalize to their statistical probabilities. If they don't, something is up. And in this instance, the Packers have been getting these types of calls year after year, for decades now, against us and against the Lions and others. It's absolutely rigged IMO, I can't figure any other explanation for it. Even the "Jordan calls" stuff that Erin gets only goes so far here. Yes, he'll get the benefit of every call and I can live with that. But to not call obvious off sides on the defense? No. They can't take it that far, they are getting calls based on their JERSEY not just because of Erin. I honestly believe that the league has decided to tilt games in GB's favor to keep them relevant as an all time historic team in an absolutely tiny market.

This was part of my comment, "But if you go back and look at the propensity for referees to call penalties in favor of the Packers vs. against them, it's horribly lopsided." I agree with you. As a large sample size, it's clearly bent toward the Packers.

But let's follow the rabbit hole for a minute based on your comment about them being in a small market, I'm not disagreeing with you. But let's play this out.

NFL "Powers that Be" decide that they need to keep a team in GB because of its historical significance. It's a small market so they perceive the task as difficult.

Question: How would multiple winning seasons in GB, due to referee bias, benefit the Packers in such a way that they would be able to stay in Green Bay, whereas without the bias they would not?

[The Marshall Plan]

For me Whiskey it's not really about one game - you can easily wave off any game as "the refs had a bad day". But if you look at hallmarks of math, probability and statistics, then you understand that over a long span of data collection things should normalize to their statistical probabilities. If they don't, something is up. And in this instance, the Packers have been getting these types of calls year after year, for decades now, against us and against the Lions and others. It's absolutely rigged IMO, I can't figure any other explanation for it. Even the "Jordan calls" stuff that Erin gets only goes so far here. Yes, he'll get the benefit of every call and I can live with that. But to not call obvious off sides on the defense? No. They can't take it that far, they are getting calls based on their JERSEY not just because of Erin. I honestly believe that the league has decided to tilt games in GB's favor to keep them relevant as an all time historic team in an absolutely tiny market.

This was part of my comment, "But if you go back and look at the propensity for referees to call penalties in favor of the Packers vs. against them, it's horribly lopsided." I agree with you. As a large sample size, it's clearly bent toward the Packers.

But let's follow the rabbit hole for a minute based on your comment about them being in a small market, I'm not disagreeing with you. But let's play this out.

NFL "Powers that Be" decide that they need to keep a team in GB because of its historical significance. It's a small market so they perceive the task as difficult.

Question: How would multiple winning seasons in GB, due to referee bias, benefit the Packers in such a way that they would be able to stay in Green Bay, whereas without the bias they would not?

Their “women” notwithstanding Green Bay is a nice little snow fallen Rockwellian town that reminds people of the glory of yester-year and is an original franchise.

There is a faux romance about the idea of little Green Bay Wisconsin with their fancy ass fan owned shareholder franchise that gives off a Hallmark Movie Of The Week quality.

So every year Green Bay goes up against these big cities and wins. Like a Disney-Diverso-Sports movie about the first integrated team to beat the Nazis or some shit.

That cracker infested shit hole where the only minorities are the ones who play for the team isn’t a big enough town to support an NFL franchise.

It’s a feel good story. It also serves to keep the team solvent via national exposure thus increasing their fan base.

Ever meet a Green Bay fan who lives nowhere near Wisconsin nor is from there? I have. They’re usually insufferable self righteous pricks who haven’t seen their feet without a mirror since the Carter Administration.

Imagine the embarrassment of a team collapsing financially. Or falling into irrelevance because of losing and the fans don’t show up. Then make that an original team. It’s a black eye for the league.

Then imagine the negative publicity of them moving the team to a bigger market. The league would never allow it.

So they keep GB in things for a while and then let them fend for themselves come playoff time and they get murdered by the 49ers.

It’s a storyline like the WWE.

[Bears Whiskey Nut]

This was part of my comment, "But if you go back and look at the propensity for referees to call penalties in favor of the Packers vs. against them, it's horribly lopsided." I agree with you. As a large sample size, it's clearly bent toward the Packers.

But let's follow the rabbit hole for a minute based on your comment about them being in a small market, I'm not disagreeing with you. But let's play this out.

NFL "Powers that Be" decide that they need to keep a team in GB because of its historical significance. It's a small market so they perceive the task as difficult.

Question: How would multiple winning seasons in GB, due to referee bias, benefit the Packers in such a way that they would be able to stay in Green Bay, whereas without the bias they would not?

Their “women” notwithstanding Green Bay is a nice little snow fallen Rockwellian town that reminds people of the glory of yester-year and is an original franchise.

There is a faux romance about the idea of little Green Bay Wisconsin with their fancy ass fan owned shareholder franchise that gives off a Hallmark Movie Of The Week quality.

So every year Green Bay goes up against these big cities and wins. Like a Disney-Diverso-Sports movie about the first integrated team to beat the Nazis or some shit.

That cracker infested shit hole where the only minorities are the ones who play for the team isn’t a big enough town to support an NFL franchise.

It’s a feel good story. It also serves to keep the team solvent via national exposure thus increasing their fan base.

Ever meet a Green Bay fan who lives nowhere near Wisconsin nor is from there? I have. They’re usually insufferable self righteous pricks who haven’t seen their feet without a mirror since the Carter Administration.

Imagine the embarrassment of a team collapsing financially. Or falling into irrelevance because of losing and the fans don’t show up. Then make that an original team. It’s a black eye for the league.

Then imagine the negative publicity of them moving the team to a bigger market. The league would never allow it.

So they keep GB in things for a while and then let them fend for themselves come playoff time and they get murdered by the 49ers.

It’s a storyline like the WWE.

You're a terribly good descriptive writer.

"They’re usually insufferable self righteous pricks who haven’t seen their feet without a mirror since the Carter Administration."

I'm not arguing with you. The one thing that is tough to conspiracy theory away is the fact that they have hit on two home run QB draft choices that will both end up in the HOF. As frustrating as that is, that outcome isn't something that can be controlled by the league, and has led in large part to their success over the last 25 fucking years. Now ADD to that the clear bias from the league, and you can keep an NFL team in a town of 100K people, where the majority of the population were "Deliverance" extras.

[The Marshall Plan]

Their “women” notwithstanding Green Bay is a nice little snow fallen Rockwellian town that reminds people of the glory of yester-year and is an original franchise.

There is a faux romance about the idea of little Green Bay Wisconsin with their fancy ass fan owned shareholder franchise that gives off a Hallmark Movie Of The Week quality.

So every year Green Bay goes up against these big cities and wins. Like a Disney-Diverso-Sports movie about the first integrated team to beat the Nazis or some shit.

That cracker infested shit hole where the only minorities are the ones who play for the team isn’t a big enough town to support an NFL franchise.

It’s a feel good story. It also serves to keep the team solvent via national exposure thus increasing their fan base.

Ever meet a Green Bay fan who lives nowhere near Wisconsin nor is from there? I have. They’re usually insufferable self righteous pricks who haven’t seen their feet without a mirror since the Carter Administration.

Imagine the embarrassment of a team collapsing financially. Or falling into irrelevance because of losing and the fans don’t show up. Then make that an original team. It’s a black eye for the league.

Then imagine the negative publicity of them moving the team to a bigger market. The league would never allow it.

So they keep GB in things for a while and then let them fend for themselves come playoff time and they get murdered by the 49ers.

It’s a storyline like the WWE.

You're a terribly good descriptive writer.

"They’re usually insufferable self righteous pricks who haven’t seen their feet without a mirror since the Carter Administration."

I'm not arguing with you. The one thing that is tough to conspiracy theory away is the fact that they have hit on two home run QB draft choices that will both end up in the HOF. As frustrating as that is, that outcome isn't something that can be controlled by the league, and has led in large part to their success over the last 25 fucking years. Now ADD to that the clear bias from the league, and you can keep an NFL team in a town of 100K people, where the majority of the population were "Deliverance" extras.

Thank you. I fucking hate those people and the Deliverance extras reference is spot on.

I’m doing this from an iPhone so apologies if the link isn’t great.

https://huddleup.substack.com/p/green-b ... e-declines

GB is starting to have money problems. Imagine being a town the size of Rockford or something and paying a QB $30M per year. The economics is catching up with them.

You bringing up Favre and Rodgers is a fair counterpoint. That couldn’t have possibly been rigged. So that did happen.

My counter to that is what are their stats like if the penalties are normalized to a league average?

[RichH55]

It's rigged now?

Really?

Research the disparity in calls across the NFL and look at where Green Bay ranks. This isn't some cockamamie tack.

Sure sure

You get how that is like a Grand Canyon type jump to "Rigged" right?

And they don't get those calls in the Playoffs, why?

And wouldn't the Saints get to say the NFL is rigged first?

The two worst things about any fandom - Complaining about Refs and thinking Press Conferences matter

[RichH55]

I'd really like to hear some suggestions about SOLUTIONS for this ref problem.

Quit complaining?

[Bears Whiskey Nut]

I'd really like to hear some suggestions about SOLUTIONS for this ref problem.

Quit complaining?

Rich. This is a Fan Forum for our beloved Bears. If we can't complain and commiserate, what the hell else are we going to do?? You're certainly not offering up solutions or evidence of anything. You just run around and complain about other posters' comments.

[G08]

Research the disparity in calls across the NFL and look at where Green Bay ranks. This isn't some cockamamie tack.

Sure sure

You get how that is like a Grand Canyon type jump to "Rigged" right?

And they don't get those calls in the Playoffs, why?

And wouldn't the Saints get to say the NFL is rigged first?

The two worst things about any fandom - Complaining about Refs and thinking Press Conferences matter

No I've actively looked into this because I used to get annoyed by people saying "the refs are against us!". Then I looked at the data:



Are the refs "out to get us"? Is the NFL "rigged" toward certain teams?

I can't answer that, but the data above is damning.

[crueltyabc]

Legion of boom with some DPIs huh?

[Yogi da Bear]

Quit complaining?

Rich. This is a Fan Forum for our beloved Bears. If we can't complain and commiserate, what the hell else are we going to do?? You're certainly not offering up solutions or evidence of anything. You just run around and complain about other posters' comments.

OMG. It's the troll cooking with the black kettle:



About all Rich does is jump from one post to another to about and complain about them. But he's taken one step beyond with this. Now, he's not just the pot calling the kettle black. He's actually the troll cooking with the black kettle and the pot. We'll call it the "quit complaining 'complaint'." lol

[wab]

I'd really like to hear some suggestions about SOLUTIONS for this ref problem.

Quit complaining?

I’m pretty sure you have been talked to about this. I don’t want to keep deleting your posts.

[HisRoyalSweetness]

Ever meet a Green Bay fan who lives nowhere near Wisconsin nor is from there?

You know the old adage "You're never more than 6 feet away from a rat"? Well in London you're never more than 6 feet away from a blasted Packers fan when the NFL's in town.