Updates on Jenkins and Borom

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The Cooler King wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 8:56 am I think once Jenkins is ready, you have to really consider having to bench Peters. Look, Peters has been great and all, but they should get a good look at Jenkins to help them decide their offseason plans.

They probably need to replace at least 2 starter spots in the offseason. And maybe 3 if they don't retain Daniels. Getting an extended look at Jenkins and Borom is important. If all goes well they have those two spots penciled in and they can focus on rebuilding the interior.

We'll see....
Absolutely yes. We need to get Jenkins and Borom PT and eval time so we know what we have in them. Peters has really helped us in a pinch but he's not a part of our future. We could be just one C/G away from fielding a pretty darn good OL, injuries really hurt this unit this year. Honestly, I'd move Daniels over to C also to evaluate his ability to play there next year and let Bars plug in at RG. I was high on Mustipher but just don't think he's going to ever measure up physically.

I was bigtime skeptical of Borom, but I gotta say he just looks really good out there especially for a rookie. Just calm and in control, clearly strong enough to hold up at this level, arrow is definately up on this guy. Even if he gets wasted by Watt tonight, which will be a great learning experience either way. I'm just super confident in him now. Jenkins OTOH, I need to see this kid play. If he looks good, we can go into next year with Jenkins, Borom, and Bars as the swing.
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The Cooler King wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 8:56 am I think once Jenkins is ready, you have to really consider having to bench Peters. Look, Peters has been great and all, but they should get a good look at Jenkins to help them decide their offseason plans.

They probably need to replace at least 2 starter spots in the offseason. And maybe 3 if they don't retain Daniels.
Peters - good LT (maybe RT, G). Very old FA whose price may go back up. Not in long-term plans.
Whitehair - solid G. Contract skyrockets excessively for the next 3 years, paying him like a star Pro Bowler, which he most definitely does not play like.
Mustipher - a backup. https://heavy.com/sports/chicago-bears/ ... mustipher/
Daniels - solid G. A young FA who could get overly high offers.
Ifedi - adequate/solid RT. A FA.
Wilkinson - adequate/solid RT. A FA.
Borom - Very untested, despite the hype. Maybe a starting RT, maybe G (which is what draft profiles figured), maybe LT, maybe nothing.
Bars - Very versatile backup, but hasn't shown starter quality anywhere.
Simmons - garbage
Jenkins - maybe a starter, maybe out of football before the Bears' next winning season.


They won't get 5 new starters - they don't even have the resource to do it if they wanted to.
But there's not a single one - absolutely zero - who are starter quality and great bets to be back.

This line is such a frigging mess.
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I could legit see a narrow path where it's a new starting 5 from week 1. Maybe a 5% chance, but both OTs are pretty certain to be new starters. They SHOULD replace Mustipher. They probably also should cut Whitehair (although I doubt they will, he is probably the safest to return in actuality) . So then it comes to Daniels, and he could just be outbid by a crazy offer, who knows.
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Borom at G..... All those draft nicks stating he should move to guard were before he lost 40+ pounds. Borom actually has quick feet at his new weight and should stay at OT.
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Z Bear wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 10:37 am Borom at G..... All those draft nicks stating he should move to guard were before he lost 40+ pounds. Borom actually has quick feet at his new weight and should stay at OT.
Can't agree more. The Bears still aren't convinced they're out of the playoffs and technically they're not. But I'd like to see him put at LT for an extended period to see if he's the future there. Otherwise the Bears will have potentially have a gaping hole there with possibly Jenkins to fill it or a FA/another draft pick in '22. They need a GM/football mind to start paying attention to the OL. Borom could be slid inside if Daniels isn't re-signed but, again, we won't know until he's put there in '22.
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Grizzled wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 10:44 am
Z Bear wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 10:37 am Borom at G..... All those draft nicks stating he should move to guard were before he lost 40+ pounds. Borom actually has quick feet at his new weight and should stay at OT.
Can't agree more. The Bears still aren't convinced they're out of the playoffs and technically they're not. But I'd like to see him put at LT for an extended period to see if he's the future there. Otherwise the Bears will have potentially have a gaping hole there with possibly Jenkins to fill it or a FA/another draft pick in '22. They need a GM/football mind to start paying attention to the OL. Borom could be slid inside if Daniels isn't re-signed but, again, we won't know until he's put there in '22.
Nobody got to see Borom play games at his current weight, but he did do all his combine/pro day workouts at 322, so they do somewhat know his speed/agility at this size.
He also has short arms for T, which I'm sure factored into the projections as well.

Which isn't to say I'm against using remaining season to evaluate. Just lower levels of optimism for me.
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Moriarty wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 11:07 am
Grizzled wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 10:44 am

Can't agree more. The Bears still aren't convinced they're out of the playoffs and technically they're not. But I'd like to see him put at LT for an extended period to see if he's the future there. Otherwise the Bears will have potentially have a gaping hole there with possibly Jenkins to fill it or a FA/another draft pick in '22. They need a GM/football mind to start paying attention to the OL. Borom could be slid inside if Daniels isn't re-signed but, again, we won't know until he's put there in '22.
Nobody got to see Borom play games at his current weight, but he did do all his combine/pro day workouts at 322, so they do somewhat know his speed/agility at this size.
He also has short arms for T, which I'm sure factored into the projections as well.

Which isn't to say I'm against using remaining season to evaluate. Just lower levels of optimism for me.
So is his ceiling Charles Leno then? Wab could repurpose his shirt!
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HurricaneBear wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 12:42 pm
Moriarty wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 11:07 am

Nobody got to see Borom play games at his current weight, but he did do all his combine/pro day workouts at 322, so they do somewhat know his speed/agility at this size.
He also has short arms for T, which I'm sure factored into the projections as well.

Which isn't to say I'm against using remaining season to evaluate. Just lower levels of optimism for me.
So is his ceiling Charles Leno then? Wab could repurpose his shirt!
Lenos physical issues are way more than arms. He also has a pretty narrow base. Borom looks to have a much more solid base when you look at him.

For reference
https://www.mockdraftable.com/player/ch ... osition=OL
https://www.mockdraftable.com/player/la ... osition=OL
Charles best measurable comps were mostly interior guys. Boroms are mostly tackles.
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Leno was short, with oddly long arms
Borom has short arms

Jumps were mixed
Speed also mixed, but Borom's cone trailed by a lot
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This arm length thing kills me. Borom's arms are 33 1/8. Leno's are 34 3/8. Thats one inch and a quarter difference between being abnormally long-armed and short-armed. On guys that are 6'5"? Seriously?

Every time this is brought up I remind that Joe Thomas had 32" arms & people were "concerned" about it when he was drafted. Maybe - just maybe - arm length plays a very small if any role in OT efficacy.
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The whole concept behind longer arms being better is that it gives the OT more margin for error if/when they get beat. It's not the end-all-be-all, but all things considered give me the dude with 35" arms over 32" arms.

At the end of the day, elite technique trumps all.
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I just hope the Bears don't go into next season without a veteran who could start at OT. Similarly, they need to plan to add a veteran C to help Fields and replace Mustifer. Even if they like Mustifer enough to believe he'll improve... it's too much of a risk. I don't think Daniels will command much money and I'd like him back. He's still young and I wonder how well he'd be playing with some talent and stability next to him.
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G08 wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 4:11 pm The whole concept behind longer arms being better is that it gives the OT more margin for error if/when they get beat. It's not the end-all-be-all, but all things considered give me the dude with 35" arms over 32" arms.

At the end of the day, elite technique trumps all.
That does make sense - all other things being equal makes the smaller things more important relatively. But I still think if they're in a normal range they can't really add much.

35" arms are outliers for sure. It seems that guys with arms less than 33" are outliers in the other direction. About as many "good" OTs have 32"-ish arms as 35"-ish arms. The sweet spot seems to be is in the 34" range if you're looking at the biggest number of successful OTs.

But we have to ask ourselves... for guys who average 6'4" to 6'6" in height, what is the average arm length? I'll guess it is about 34". Which means you're not really looking for any special kind of trait with arm length to get physical advantage ... that advantage sort of comes with the rest of the size. If you like Jason Peter's size and other stuff, his shorter arms are an afterthought.

I've always guessed that the really good OTs who have had marginally shorter arms simply compensated in other ways to any extent that it mattered, and got pretty good at it. So if a guy is a pretty good OT at a high level in college, I can't see how his arms are going to be the thing that makes or breaks him in the NFL. And there is a deterministic side of it where it is presumed that shorter armed guys should be on the inside (I have seen no data on this) unless they demonstrate "tackle feet". That doesn't mean arm length really is the thing that makes the difference but is just one way that players are sorted early on.

So anyway Jenkins and Borom both have slightly shorter arms (like 1/4- 3/4 inches) than NFL average. For me this is not a concern or factor indicating whether they'll be good or not.
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Yes, compensation is key. At a broad level its about maintaining control. If a defender with longer arms engages first they potentially control that battle.

There was a great breakdown of Jenkins technique around this. I'll have to dig it up...
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The Cooler King wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 5:03 pm Yes, compensation is key. At a broad level its about maintaining control. If a defender with longer arms engages first they potentially control that battle.

There was a great breakdown of Jenkins technique around this. I'll have to dig it up...
IIRC it was the way he punches the defender away from him.
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IE wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 4:43 pm
G08 wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 4:11 pm The whole concept behind longer arms being better is that it gives the OT more margin for error if/when they get beat. It's not the end-all-be-all, but all things considered give me the dude with 35" arms over 32" arms.

At the end of the day, elite technique trumps all.
That does make sense - all other things being equal makes the smaller things more important relatively. But I still think if they're in a normal range they can't really add much.

35" arms are outliers for sure. It seems that guys with arms less than 33" are outliers in the other direction. About as many "good" OTs have 32"-ish arms as 35"-ish arms. The sweet spot seems to be is in the 34" range if you're looking at the biggest number of successful OTs.

But we have to ask ourselves... for guys who average 6'4" to 6'6" in height, what is the average arm length? I'll guess it is about 34". Which means you're not really looking for any special kind of trait with arm length to get physical advantage ... that advantage sort of comes with the rest of the size. If you like Jason Peter's size and other stuff, his shorter arms are an afterthought.

I've always guessed that the really good OTs who have had marginally shorter arms simply compensated in other ways to any extent that it mattered, and got pretty good at it. So if a guy is a pretty good OT at a high level in college, I can't see how his arms are going to be the thing that makes or breaks him in the NFL. And there is a deterministic side of it where it is presumed that shorter armed guys should be on the inside (I have seen no data on this) unless they demonstrate "tackle feet". That doesn't mean arm length really is the thing that makes the difference but is just one way that players are sorted early on.

So anyway Jenkins and Borom both have slightly shorter arms (like 1/4- 3/4 inches) than NFL average. For me this is not a concern or factor indicating whether they'll be good or not.
It's always a bit odd when the relevant background population isn't considered, or often even stated. Of the population of tackles that have been given an opportunity, how many of them had "short" arms and failed?

But perhaps I'm just showing solidarity for my short armed brethren, I'm like a t-rex!
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Watt was beating Borom like a drum until the Bears coaches figured they better put another guy on him. Of course, Watt does this to tackles on a regular basis, which is why he makes the big bucks.
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Borom got away with some Illegal procedure calls last night. I saw at least three times he started his back pedal before the snap and they didn't call it. I think he had 2 called though. Baptism under fire. good learning experience for him going against Watt.
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The Cooler King wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 5:03 pm Yes, compensation is key. At a broad level its about maintaining control. If a defender with longer arms engages first they potentially control that battle.

There was a great breakdown of Jenkins technique around this. I'll have to dig it up...
Voch Lombardi had a great one that showed how Jenkins beat the longer-armed Joseph Ossai.

Anyway, there's arm length and then there's arm length. I'm barely 6'1", with something like a 6'10" wingspan and 37" arms. My arms meet a diagnostic criterion for Marfan Syndrome, but my standing reach is only 8'3" or so. A lot of my arm length is in my shoulders, which is good for some things and not for others. Thomas has pretty narrow shoulders (average ones, at least), so more of his arm length was usable as a lineman. Don't know how Jenkins measures up, but he won with technique in college, which is a great start.
Last edited by karhu on Tue Nov 09, 2021 10:33 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Otis Day wrote: Tue Nov 09, 2021 10:10 am Borom got away with some Illegal procedure calls last night. I saw at least three times he started his back pedal before the snap and they didn't call it. I think he had 2 called though. Baptism under fire. good learning experience for him going against Watt.
That's been the NFL's Eurostep lately, hasn't it? I've noticed it, too, for the last couple of years. Everyone seems to do it.
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Bears rookie Teven Jenkins inching closer to a return

PITTSBURGH — Rookie left tackle Teven Jenkins appears to be moving closer to returning from injured reserve. In the hours before Monday’s game at Heinz Field, he was put through a strenuous workout by trainer Jason Loscalzo. Friday, Jenkins was spotted running up the hill behind the practice field at Halas Hall.

https://chicago.suntimes.com/bears/2021 ... covid-list
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HisRoyalSweetness wrote: Tue Nov 09, 2021 6:18 pm
Bears rookie Teven Jenkins inching closer to a return

PITTSBURGH — Rookie left tackle Teven Jenkins appears to be moving closer to returning from injured reserve. In the hours before Monday’s game at Heinz Field, he was put through a strenuous workout by trainer Jason Loscalzo. Friday, Jenkins was spotted running up the hill behind the practice field at Halas Hall.

https://chicago.suntimes.com/bears/2021 ... covid-list
Does he start after the bye??
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Bears Whiskey Nut wrote: Tue Nov 09, 2021 7:35 pm
HisRoyalSweetness wrote: Tue Nov 09, 2021 6:18 pm
Does he start after the bye??
That still sounds agressive. Remember he missed all of camp. And back injuries can be serious.

I'm thinking Cards game, Dec 5. Could still get 6 starts in which wouldn't be nothing.
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So do you sit Borom or Peters (who has probably been the best O lineman the last few weeks)?
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Z Bear wrote: Tue Nov 09, 2021 9:31 pm So do you sit Borom or Peters (who has probably been the best O lineman the last few weeks)?
Borom has been paying pretty well...
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Z Bear wrote: Tue Nov 09, 2021 9:31 pm So do you sit Borom or Peters (who has probably been the best O lineman the last few weeks)?
Peters, without a question. Thank him for his professionalism and leadership and let him know the future is what's important and hell be benched. I'm sure he'll understand.
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Borom looks good IMO. Very good. You sit Peters since he’s a one year rental and this year is meaningless in terms of W/L - it’s purely player development at this point.
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Lotsa folks gonna be upset when Jenkins just gets some spot time and Peters remains the starter for the rest of the year
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I think once he's medically cleared you'll see Jenkins on special teams to get his feet wet, etc.
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wab wrote: Wed Nov 10, 2021 12:04 am Lotsa folks gonna be upset when Jenkins just gets some spot time and Peters remains the starter for the rest of the year
Once cleared and up to speed he almost has to get significant playing time just to see what they have.

I would predict 3-4 starts at the end of the year, if he is cleared. Otherwise you roll into next season just not knowing what you have again.
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