Bears have worst pass pro in NFL

The Cooler King · Mon Oct 25, 2021 4:21 pm

I'm trying to understand the implication of the fat shaded area. Is that violatility? And then why is the league average so tight?

Moriarty · Mon Oct 25, 2021 4:42 pm

It's such a simultaneous train wreck.

How do you know how much to blame:

Bad WR separation?
Bad protection?
Holding the ball too long?
Finding the open man?
Bad playcalling?
Terrible play design?

You have to do multiple flushes and start over

IE · Mon Oct 25, 2021 4:51 pm

Why are they calculating probability when the data is actual? Maybe I just don't like their way of saying it. If they're saying that's the future probability I think that's nonsense. I'm pretty sure as the season progresses JF1 and the Bears will approach the league averages. They may not hit - but it will trend that way and it should be noticeable.

I think it already is, actually. If you take out the Cleveland game the picture also looks dramatically different. I don't think any game since looked at all like Cleveland. I think there is a big difference between the comprehensive failure of the Cleveland game and the hit/miss we've seen since that was a combination of bad blocking, other players letting him down and JF1 mistakes or learning curve. He DOES get pressured quickly sometimes. But many other times that isn't the case. He's just not finding people or people aren't in synch with him and such. I really think that will get better. It couldn't get worse. If I were the Bear coaches I'd be looking hard at who is going to present the friendliest targets for him. The TEs clearly are (8 catches on 9 targets). Herbert was 5 for 5 too. If he can catch, can they please try to run some screens? Is that too complicated for the rookie?

Mon Oct 25, 2021 4:55 pm

dplank · Mon Oct 25, 2021 5:06 pm

Yea seemed like this all day. Baldy usually gets it right IMO, and he does here. It's remarkable how bad our OL has been protecting the QB. That NextGen stat is a timing stat, time to pressure - that has nothing to do with reads or WR's or anything else. That's simply us getting beat up front over and over and over and over again. It's the root of our problem and has been since Nagy came to town.

Mon Oct 25, 2021 5:11 pm

dplank wrote: ↑Mon Oct 25, 2021 5:06 pm Yea seemed like this all day. Baldy usually gets it right IMO, and he does here. It's remarkable how bad our OL has been protecting the QB. That NextGen stat is a timing stat, time to pressure - that has nothing to do with reads or WR's or anything else. That's simply us getting beat up front over and over and over and over again. It's the root of our problem and has been since Nagy came to town.

The bears actually had one of the most promising offensive lines in 2018. In 2018, Leno/Daniels/Whitehair all made the pro bowl (not that means a lot).

Injuries and blocking scheme changes every year are what have been the problem.

The Cooler King · Mon Oct 25, 2021 5:22 pm

wab wrote: ↑Mon Oct 25, 2021 5:11 pm
dplank wrote: ↑Mon Oct 25, 2021 5:06 pm Yea seemed like this all day. Baldy usually gets it right IMO, and he does here. It's remarkable how bad our OL has been protecting the QB. That NextGen stat is a timing stat, time to pressure - that has nothing to do with reads or WR's or anything else. That's simply us getting beat up front over and over and over and over again. It's the root of our problem and has been since Nagy came to town.
The bears actually had one of the most promising offensive lines in 2018. In 2018, Leno/Daniels/Whitehair all made the pro bowl (not that means a lot).

Injuries and blocking scheme changes every year are what have been the problem.

OIines are like elite Ds to me. If you're not actively replenishing they have a life span of like 2 years.

Mikefive · Mon Oct 25, 2021 7:01 pm

Playing a very young QB before he has the protections down and can quickly react to the coverage is also a significant contributor for sure.

Moriarty · Mon Oct 25, 2021 7:44 pm

UOK wrote: ↑Mon Oct 25, 2021 4:55 pm

I don't know what their assignments were, but I'm dubious about blaming that on Peters.

2 guys are coming on the outside and there's no way he can manage both. Apparently the blocking scheme involves the LG and C doubling the NT, 4 more guys staying in to block 2 more guys on the line...and then Peters has to get 1 guy and the back has to come across the QB to pick up the other??

That looks like disasterously bad assignments to me, either by design in the playbook, or by at line (non) adustments.

mmmc_35 · Mon Oct 25, 2021 8:19 pm

I think it was both. Peter's saw the pressure and new his job was to ride his guy inside, but also new the free rusher would get a straight path to the QB.

He did the wrong thing and didnt concentrate on his job. He clearly hesitated, almost as if you could see his thoughts. "This isnt going to work". The design was flawed but he also didnt do his job.

IE · Mon Oct 25, 2021 8:41 pm

That was the assignment. Peters had Barrett and Herbert is supposed to block the safety. He whiffed, and the safety caused the fumble (ball protection, kid). Barrett beat Peters too but who knows if Herbert took the safety out (like we've seen Williams do - he's a good blocker) maybe JF1 had somebody to get the ball to. Or at least being able to see Barrett escape out to the right where all the blocking seemed to be.

dplank · Mon Oct 25, 2021 9:30 pm

They had two free runners and we were in max protect. It’s awful.

Moriarty · Mon Oct 25, 2021 9:39 pm

mmmc_35 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 25, 2021 8:19 pm I think it was both. Peter's saw the pressure and new his job was to ride his guy inside, but also new the free rusher would get a straight path to the QB.

He did the wrong thing and didnt concentrate on his job. He clearly hesitated, almost as if you could see his thoughts. "This isnt going to work". The design was flawed but he also didnt do his job.

That's one of two things that occurred to me.

The other is that maybe he's looking that way because he can't believe Whitehair is staying with the interior double team and not switching.

docc · Mon Oct 25, 2021 9:47 pm

A roll out right with that "protection" may have been better than the suicide attempts..

BearsFanInMN · Mon Oct 25, 2021 11:42 pm

Two 2nd round guard, UDFA center, washouts and 7th rounders at tackle (plus a future HOF who’s 39 and back from retirement). Anyone surprised? I think the only help I’ve seen is a smurf WR when we occasionally chip.

We haven’t prioritized OL since Finks which coincidentally was when we had success even with crap at most of the skill positions.

karhu · Tue Oct 26, 2021 12:21 am

That play needs its own truth and reconciliation commission.

Where was the communication? Why did Peters have to wonder which blitzer to block? Why did he eventually choose the guy he did, leaving Herbert a longer path to the other guy?

Who was responsible for identifying the defensive front? Why didn't they say anything? Were they not supposed to?

If we're in max pro and we've left at least one guy free on the QB's blind side while doubling everything in sight from the NT on down to the right, can the QB motion a TE over to the left? If not, why not?

If the QB knows that it's a pass play, and two guys are lining up wide of his unaided LT, can he check out of the largely pointless play fake? If not, why not?

Speaking of that play fake, why include it in a play that has your line setting up to pass-block?

If two blitzers are lining up outside our 39-year-old fisherman/LT, and the play is specifically designed to prevent the RB from helping block one of them, the free guy is the QB's man, right? So why didn't he direct Herbert to simply go block him?

Why call it max pro when it only works if the other team lines up where your blockers are?

Sheesh, I could go on. But that one play raises so many questions about how responsibility is assigned and carried out. I might not live long enough for Fields and Mustipher to write about it in their memoirs, so I want to know now. Or soon.

G08 · Tue Oct 26, 2021 6:47 am

This is how you ruin young QBs, and ties into my fear of trotting him out too soon.

Oh well.

mmmc_35 · Tue Oct 26, 2021 7:23 am

Moriarty wrote: ↑Mon Oct 25, 2021 9:39 pm
mmmc_35 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 25, 2021 8:19 pm I think it was both. Peter's saw the pressure and new his job was to ride his guy inside, but also new the free rusher would get a straight path to the QB.

He did the wrong thing and didnt concentrate on his job. He clearly hesitated, almost as if you could see his thoughts. "This isnt going to work". The design was flawed but he also didnt do his job.
That's one of two things that occurred to me.

The other is that maybe he's looking that way because he can't believe Whitehair is staying with the interior double team and not switching.

That easily could be. Which as you mention it fits the protection better. It's simple step left protection. Whitehair needs to pass his guy off. Peter's took a 45 drop set. Hes set up in and realized Whitehair isnt in the zone because he doubles the nose. So yeah your right. Or the protection was super fucked.

Bears Whiskey Nut · Tue Oct 26, 2021 7:49 am

Moriarty wrote: ↑Mon Oct 25, 2021 4:42 pm It's such a simultaneous train wreck.

How do you know how much to blame:

Bad WR separation?
Bad protection?
Holding the ball too long?
Finding the open man?
Bad playcalling?
Terrible play design?

You have to do multiple flushes and start over

Yeah. It's a little of columns A - EE.

IE · Tue Oct 26, 2021 8:00 am

dplank wrote: ↑Mon Oct 25, 2021 9:30 pm They had two free runners and we were in max protect. It’s awful.

Yeah - so they were heavy on the right and the FS comes up on the left to try to take advantage of that. Am I wrong in saying that the protection was fine if Peters just is a little more athletic and Herbert does his job? (I love Herbert and what a future he has)

I saw mmm say it is a simple step left protection - but is it? It seems like they had everyone accounted for on the left (and doubling Veia to help Mustipher in pass pro makes sense to me). It seems like with the LB and FS coming one of those TEs could have drifted across to where they weren't and it could have been a fine play.

But that's what we're dealing with here, where the Bears have little margin of error. Peters has to succeed at something he's often too old to do. Herbert has to succeed at something he's just green at doing & not had to do a lot of (make critical blocks). JF1 has to read defenses and process things more quickly with less experience than most NFL QBs. And he needs to find WRs he's not used to playing with and frankly who aren't very good. It has always sort of been the nature of Nagy's offense (which are still the plays Lazor is calling, unfortunately) - maybe good design if things go perfectly. But things have to go perfectly.

They really need to run the ball even more - like 30-35 times minimum. Because when they are trying to pass JF1 has to carry the whole world on his shoulders. And when they DO try to pass it better be play action or rollouts for big chunks and something they practice and give JF1 at least some chance to get the timing down (e.g. have the D rushing him hard in practice and making him release the ball under 2.5 seconds). I don't get the sense that he has any timing familiarity with any of the WRs. Especially not ARob. It is almost like they need more "sandlot" guys out there for when things break down. Because running precise routes doesn't mean shit if you're covered and the QB is scrambling. Too bad Anthony Miller is such a knucklehead - because he's the kind of WR JF1 needs when things aren't perfect.

Tue Oct 26, 2021 9:55 am

Peters looks like screwed this up, but it's ultimately Mustipher that is responsible for this complete breakdown - and to a lesser extent Simmons.

They are heavy to the right and the play action is to the right, so Simmons is supposed to block down on Suh but he doesn't. He starts to slide that way but he jumps back to the right and just sort of stands there with his arms out.

Daniels...who is supposed to take Vea with Mustipher, starts sliding towards Vea...sees this Simmons fuck up, and takes Suh.

Here's where the root of the problem is though: Mustipher.

Based on this play design, Whitehair should take Barrett instead of Vea, but he sees how Vea is aligned to the left of the center in the A gap and knows that Daniels won't be able to get there and Mustipher has no chance in hell taking Vea on alone. Mustipher either missed making the adjustment or made the wrong call.

Peters should take take Barrett with Whitehair or pick up the blitz, but he sees Whitehair helping Mustipher instead so he has to make a split decision on taking Barrett or Winfield and ended up getting neither.

Herbert is supposed to pick up anyone who gets past James on the right or be there for a dump off because that's where the fake goes.

There's no way in hell he can get back to the left and based on how he's moving, he's not supposed to.

TheWorldBreaker · Tue Oct 26, 2021 10:11 am

I don’t know what Peters was doing…he was so athletic and had such good feet when he was young that maybe he could flash at a blitzer and recover in time to stop his guy but not now.

The QB getting sacked in two seconds while being in max protection is just so Bears.

Grizzled · Tue Oct 26, 2021 10:26 am

UOK wrote: ↑Mon Oct 25, 2021 4:55 pm

Herbert can't whiff on his blocks.

Richie · Tue Oct 26, 2021 10:33 am

And he helps us in no way, shape, or form with his inability to read the field. Creating hesitation and a penchant for holding the ball far too long.

Oh, and his baseball pitcher windup has to be fixed or his career will be short lived. I am not totally hating on Fields or giving up on him. However, you can't just hide from behind the usual line of excuses for him. He's been BAD as well.

I really would like to see him sit down. Dalton clearly gives us the best chance to win right now. Not only that, Fields is going to get himself killed and further destroy his mechanics/psyche in the process.

Where did this big windup to his throw come anyway? I rewatched his Ohio State highlights and he didn't have that going on.

TheWorldBreaker · Tue Oct 26, 2021 10:51 am

Richie wrote: ↑Tue Oct 26, 2021 10:33 am And he helps us in no way, shape, or form with his inability to read the field. Creating hesitation and a penchant for holding the ball far too long.

Oh, and his baseball pitcher windup has to be fixed or his career will be short lived. I am not totally hating on Fields or giving up on him. However, you can't just hide from behind the usual line of excuses for him. He's been BAD as well.

I really would like to see him sit down. Dalton clearly gives us the best chance to win right now. Not only that, Fields is going to get himself killed and further destroy his mechanics/psyche in the process.

Where did this big windup to his throw come anyway? I rewatched his Ohio State highlights and he didn't have that going on.

I’m old enough to remember when the media and many fans were saying Nagy was the biggest idiot in the NFL for not immediately starting Fields and thinking Dalton gave them the best chance to win.

Kind of funny how fast a media narrative can change. I wonder where the Bears would be if they’d started Dalton after the Oakland game.

Fields would probably be feeling a lot better about himself and the Bears might have beaten the Packers…

Otis Day · Tue Oct 26, 2021 10:57 am

If Winfield didn't get him Barrett would have.

Herbert being a rook, this being play action, it probably didn't cross his mind to say fuck it and immediately go left to protect Fields.

Burl · Tue Oct 26, 2021 10:59 am

This is EXACTLY the situation that the 'start Dalton' crowd was warning against.
Barring some drastic change in direction, Fields is going to end up as just one more in a long line of prospects who this organization failed.

How many times do we have to watch this unfold before we learn?

Tue Oct 26, 2021 11:28 am

The Cooler King · Tue Oct 26, 2021 11:57 am

Burl wrote: ↑Tue Oct 26, 2021 10:59 am This is EXACTLY the situation that the 'start Dalton' crowd was warning against.
Barring some drastic change in direction, Fields is going to end up as just one more in a long line of prospects who this organization failed.

How many times do we have to watch this unfold before we learn?

This org may well blow the opportunity, but sitting him a year wouldn't have changed that either.