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Moriarty
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HisRoyalSweetness wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 5:59 pm Whilst we're busy fantasising about trading players for draft picks let's try to remember that no matter how good the next GM is he's not going to be landing quality players with every one. There is a tendency to place far to much value on the unknown promise of draft picks over proven commodities.

dave99 is right; this is not going to be a one year rebuild. The new GM will have to fix what he can with the resources he has a available this coming season, but there will still be more to be done in 2023. However, the clock is already ticking on Fields' rookie contract. The GM is going to have to take great care that the value of that doesn't go to waste if he decides to tear everything down and attempt to build it all back up again.

There's no question the rebuild has to happen. And no question 1 year won't suffice to return to competitiveness.
3 would probably be ideal, given the pitiful draft capital of this year. But because 2021 was wasted and you have a timer on Fields, I think you have to hope 2 years will do and aim for competition in 24 + 25. Pretty tight and pretty tough, but what are you going to do?
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Well this is a fantasy land thread, and IMO if we could land Adams and Jensen in FA somehow, hit on a CB in the 2nd, and hire a really good OC like Daboll, we could immediately vault to a top tier squad in the NFC. Fields would flourish and we’d leap from lower mid level to contender.
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Moriarty wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 5:52 pm
dave99 wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 4:05 pm


I believe that if you give Fields time in a professional offensive scheme he can make do with average receivers.
For a while.
And this is not going to be a one year rebuild.
Find the five (probably 6 or 7) guys that can protect Fields and give the running game some more consistency and the offense will look a whole lot better.
Build the lines. The rest will come.

Agreed.

WR could be the ugliest position group (although I'd probably pick S - or even DL, if you let both FAs walk).
But I think a young QB needs OL and at least an average HB far more than WRs.
And in general, if you asked me which position group you'd be more comfortable with a bunch of nobodies, WR would probably top the list.
I DO think the two top picks will likely be S, CB, DL or ILB because of need. But I still WR is the biggest clear need, it is because heck they really only have Mooney and Dazz. I didn't realize that even Grant is an UFA. That isn't just a list of nobodies - it is actually almost nobody. So I think that will be THE FA priority, leading to the draft in other areas. I'd rather not have JF1 stuck with potential busts or just "fast guys". I hope whoever they bring in are true professionals and good technicians vs potential divas. My biggest target would be Godwin and as a fallback I believe Pringle or Wilson could be the Bears #1 WR if they can't land a Godwin, Adams or Schuster. Even if they CAN land a big fish, I hope they pick up a guy like Pringle. I think the new regime probably already think the Bear WRs are pathetic and are coming in to help JF1 and make him successful. Giving him the bad news bears at WR is not helping.

Where we don't agree is this is a multi-year rebuild on the lines. I think the DL can mostly come back and losing Hicks isn't losing much anymore. We don't even know what the defense will be like, and for the front 7 it seems like there is some depth including a couple of vets that can come back (and play OK).

And I think it is just as fair to say the following about the oline, based on what we know about Nagy:
- We don't really know if the Oline is good or not, because we do know anecdotally that what they were asked to do was sometimes not reasonable or well-conceived
- We do know there are two reasonably promising OTs that at least deserve a shot to secure those positions. It wouldn't appear to be a responsible use of resources to assume they can't do it since they've performed adequately with little preparation in a historically bad offensive scheme. They just need to be backed up.
- Center "appears" to be a need, but again given what we know about the offensive approach and plan under Nagy, a lack of draft resources and a lack of FA options and a relative depth of backups at the position, it seems like giving Mustipher (and either Whitehair or Daniels or both) the C position for '22 season in a new offense is the most pragmatic approach.
- I think we can assume Bars can hold down either G spot, and is a highly useful SOB that hardly anyone mentions when discussing the line.

I think what I'm betting is the new regime will want to see for themselves what these guys can do in a new and decent system. I do believe "they" will also bring in 1-2 journeyman-type vets they feel they can count on to shore things up without making an expensive FA splash or investing scarce picks in the draft to put more uncertain young prospects behind the young uncertain prospects that are there already.
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IE wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 10:23 am
Moriarty wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 5:52 pm


Agreed.

WR could be the ugliest position group (although I'd probably pick S - or even DL, if you let both FAs walk).
But I think a young QB needs OL and at least an average HB far more than WRs.
And in general, if you asked me which position group you'd be more comfortable with a bunch of nobodies, WR would probably top the list.
I DO think the two top picks will likely be S, CB, DL or ILB because of need. But I still WR is the biggest clear need, it is because heck they really only have Mooney and Dazz. I didn't realize that even Grant is an UFA. That isn't just a list of nobodies - it is actually almost nobody. So I think that will be THE FA priority, leading to the draft in other areas. I'd rather not have JF1 stuck with potential busts or just "fast guys". I hope whoever they bring in are true professionals and good technicians vs potential divas. My biggest target would be Godwin and as a fallback I believe Pringle or Wilson could be the Bears #1 WR if they can't land a Godwin, Adams or Schuster. Even if they CAN land a big fish, I hope they pick up a guy like Pringle. I think the new regime probably already think the Bear WRs are pathetic and are coming in to help JF1 and make him successful. Giving him the bad news bears at WR is not helping.

Where we don't agree is this is a multi-year rebuild on the lines. I think the DL can mostly come back and losing Hicks isn't losing much anymore. We don't even know what the defense will be like, and for the front 7 it seems like there is some depth including a couple of vets that can come back (and play OK).

And I think it is just as fair to say the following about the oline, based on what we know about Nagy:
- We don't really know if the Oline is good or not, because we do know anecdotally that what they were asked to do was sometimes not reasonable or well-conceived
- We do know there are two reasonably promising OTs that at least deserve a shot to secure those positions. It wouldn't appear to be a responsible use of resources to assume they can't do it since they've performed adequately with little preparation in a historically bad offensive scheme. They just need to be backed up.
- Center "appears" to be a need, but again given what we know about the offensive approach and plan under Nagy, a lack of draft resources and a lack of FA options and a relative depth of backups at the position, it seems like giving Mustipher (and either Whitehair or Daniels or both) the C position for '22 season in a new offense is the most pragmatic approach.
- I think we can assume Bars can hold down either G spot, and is a highly useful SOB that hardly anyone mentions when discussing the line.

I think what I'm betting is the new regime will want to see for themselves what these guys can do in a new and decent system. I do believe "they" will also bring in 1-2 journeyman-type vets they feel they can count on to shore things up without making an expensive FA splash or investing scarce picks in the draft to put more uncertain young prospects behind the young uncertain prospects that are there already.
WR is going to be worth watching. They have bodies I guess, but it's not very inspiring after Mooney. Newsome has shown a few flashes, but Adams left for the jets so that only leaves Coulter and Webster - who have shown absolutely nothing.

Safety is a concern. I think you can get DHC back for a reasonable cost, and Tabor should get tendered. Christian is still around I believe. It's not ideal at all...but it's what the Bears might have to go with.

I also think Nichols and Ogletree are back. But NT will need some depth, and they need to figure out what is up with Goldman.

As far as the OL goes... assuming the first three return...I'd like to see guys like Mustipher, Daniels, Bars, and Borom back down to their "good" weight. They packed on a lot of pounds and it seemed to hinder their movement.

I still personally think that Borom''s future is a guard - that's what almost every pre-draft expert and publication had him at. I feel like he was drafted to be a potential replacement for Daniels. It does leave a little bit of a hole at RT, but I think you can find a RT that can get you by for a couple of years in FA
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WR is a concern, the Bears are going to have to draft 2 guys at that position. The team was done a great disservice by Newsome, Graham, and Jenkins not getting enough playing time for meaningful evaluation despite the ship already having foundered and sinking fast. The defensive scheme of the new DC might affect the urgency of filling certain positions.
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Grizzled wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 11:00 am WR is a concern, the Bears are going to have to draft 2 guys at that position. The team was done a great disservice by Newsome, Graham, and Jenkins not getting enough playing time for meaningful evaluation despite the ship already having foundered and sinking fast. The defensive scheme of the new DC might affect the urgency of filling certain positions.
I just don't see them waiting until the draft to fill WR need this year. They can't do that. I think that is the first order of business as soon as they can start making moves. So maybe they'll find a WR later in the draft for depth and future - but I think the future #1 stud we all want is for '23 or later and this year there are FA signings for guys who are going to play for sure. I mean great if they can land Godwin or Schuster. I think Adams is unattainable. But then I think even then the draft priority for '23 is still the best WR available in the first round.
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If you believe that JF1 is a generational talent (I do)... then you should also feel comfortable with the idea of him elevating the WR's he does have to work with.
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wab wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 1:23 pm If you believe that JF1 is a generational talent (I do)... then you should also feel comfortable with the idea of him elevating the WR's he does have to work with.
In his first year as the prepped starter I think that is asking a lot. In a few years? Maybe.

I think Burrow is a generational talent. But then I offer Chase as an example of how non-fungible top WRs are. Actually I'd like to see Mack traded for a pick to get one of JF1's OSU studs on board. Mack for Olave? :) A man can dream...
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Is trading yourself plus like Roquan, Monty and Fields plus the next five years worth of picks to a different team an option?
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IE wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 12:18 pm
Grizzled wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 11:00 am WR is a concern, the Bears are going to have to draft 2 guys at that position. The team was done a great disservice by Newsome, Graham, and Jenkins not getting enough playing time for meaningful evaluation despite the ship already having foundered and sinking fast. The defensive scheme of the new DC might affect the urgency of filling certain positions.
I just don't see them waiting until the draft to fill WR need this year. They can't do that. I think that is the first order of business as soon as they can start making moves. So maybe they'll find a WR later in the draft for depth and future - but I think the future #1 stud we all want is for '23 or later and this year there are FA signings for guys who are going to play for sure. I mean great if they can land Godwin or Schuster. I think Adams is unattainable. But then I think even then the draft priority for '23 is still the best WR available in the first round.
There will be 3 guys who are #1 WRs: Chris Godwin, Davante Adams, and Mike Williams. Godwin is coming off an ACL injury. Adams and Williams will command insane money. I can see them going after a WR who is the next tier down. If there's a good WR available in the 2nd or 3rd round, I can see them taking him. Many of the good WRs in the league weren't 1st round picks but developed into good to great players.
Drafts are like snowflakes, no two are alike.
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IE wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 1:27 pm
wab wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 1:23 pm If you believe that JF1 is a generational talent (I do)... then you should also feel comfortable with the idea of him elevating the WR's he does have to work with.
In his first year as the prepped starter I think that is asking a lot. In a few years? Maybe.

I think Burrow is a generational talent. But then I offer Chase as an example of how non-fungible top WRs are. Actually I'd like to see Mack traded for a pick to get one of JF1's OSU studs on board. Mack for Olave? :) A man can dream...
Yup unfortunately their options for a Chase like talent or even Chase-light look extremely limiting. They are gonna have to make a high upside plays and hope for a combo of talent+upside+scheme lifting all boats together.

And worse case will be a more Lamar like development of heavily leaning in run game as Fields develops more slowly rather than in a big leap (even a guy like Brady developed more slowly than in big leaps early).
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Oh god please not Mike Williams. Please no.

I'm not worried about Godwin's knee. Modern medicine.

But that insane money for the top guys is why I like Pringle and Wilson. I think either of those guys would be the best WR the Bears have had in a long time. I like Schuster too - but figuring he'll cost more especially since he came back and played healthy last weekend.
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dplank wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 9:36 pm Well this is a fantasy land thread, and IMO if we could land Adams and Jensen in FA somehow, hit on a CB in the 2nd, and hire a really good OC like Daboll, we could immediately vault to a top tier squad in the NFC. Fields would flourish and we’d leap from lower mid level to contender.
I like your fantasy a lot - Bears should be chomping the Packer's lower extremities by the end of next season followed by a long term trend of beating them up most of the time and staying on top.

Way to go plank, now you even got me hoping for Harbaugh.
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wab wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 11:51 am I can't accurately answer this until I know who the coach is and what their philosophy is. What kind of offense are they running? Do they prefer big bodied WRs or burners? Are they looking for agile linemen or maulers (this might be irrelevant for now since the guys currently on the roster are maulers).

What kind of coverages are they going to run? Do we need man or zone corners...same with safety. Are Mack/Quinn/Gipson going to be down linemen? If so, we need more traditional linebackers.

Generically though, based on who is out of contract: interior OL, WR, S, DL. Probably in that order.
I pretty much agree with this. It's kind of impossible to say until you know what you are looking for. I personally would put CB instead of Safety.
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You only have Eddie Jackson under contract for 2022 at safety while you have JJohnson, Thomas Graham, Vildor, Shelley, Michael Joseph, and BoPete Keyes already at CB. I liked what I saw in Graham and think he could turn out to be a good CB. I would think a fairly cheap reclamation project to go with that group and maybe a draft pick would suffice for next year. Safety is a much bigger need right now than CB since you need at least 5 more bodies to make it through camp and a true starter.
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Z Bear wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 5:01 pm You only have Eddie Jackson under contract for 2022 at safety while you have JJohnson, Thomas Graham, Vildor, Shelley, Michael Joseph, and BoPete Keyes already at CB. I liked what I saw in Graham and think he could turn out to be a good CB. I would think a fairly cheap reclamation project to go with that group and maybe a draft pick would suffice for next year. Safety is a much bigger need right now than CB since you need at least 5 more bodies to make it through camp and a true starter.
Safety is one of the deeper projected FA markets from some stuff I've seen. Will have much more luck bargain hunting there I think. CB is thin, so you'll probably overpay for stability, but worth doing I think. Graham can hopefully play nickel or just be a solid backup. Or if you really feel strongly about Graham on the outside, splurge on a FA nickel at the higher end of that market. Then some reclamation type projects to provide competition for the outside slot.
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Athletic 2 round mock has Bears picking the only slightly damaged George Pickens, WR, Georgia
Pickens seems to be a really nice complement to Mooney’s skill set. He’s got the size (6-foot-3, 200 pounds listed at Georgia) and quite the catch radius. The highlight reel is filled with diving grabs, like a 52-yarder against Alabama, and go-up-and-get-it receptions. He has speed to stretch the secondary and was Georgia’s top weapon heading into 2021.

That is, before he tore his ACL in March.
Pickens was able to come back late in the season, playing in four games. He had only five catches, including the 52-yarder in the national championship game. The physical will be important, and we’ll get a good sense of what teams will be getting from the combine and Pickens’ pro day
.
Four of the next five picks came at premium positions — edge rushers Myjai Sanders (Cincinnati) and Drake Jackson (USC) and offensive linemen Daniel Faalele (Minnesota) and Darian Kinnard (Kentucky).
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dave99 wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 8:56 pm Athletic 2 round mock has Bears picking the only slightly damaged George Pickens, WR, Georgia
Pickens seems to be a really nice complement to Mooney’s skill set. He’s got the size (6-foot-3, 200 pounds listed at Georgia) and quite the catch radius. The highlight reel is filled with diving grabs, like a 52-yarder against Alabama, and go-up-and-get-it receptions. He has speed to stretch the secondary and was Georgia’s top weapon heading into 2021.

That is, before he tore his ACL in March.
Pickens was able to come back late in the season, playing in four games. He had only five catches, including the 52-yarder in the national championship game. The physical will be important, and we’ll get a good sense of what teams will be getting from the combine and Pickens’ pro day
.
Four of the next five picks came at premium positions — edge rushers Myjai Sanders (Cincinnati) and Drake Jackson (USC) and offensive linemen Daniel Faalele (Minnesota) and Darian Kinnard (Kentucky).
If he clears all his medicals I like Pickens. There are few WRs I think I like more at that spot, but I do like him.
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I always thought Carl Pickens was a good WR, any relation?
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dplank wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 5:03 pm I always thought Carl Pickens was a good WR, any relation?
Nothing listed in his Georgia bio, so I'd guess not.
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dplank wrote:I agree with Rich here
RichH55 wrote: Dplank is correct
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In free agency we should look to add a starting safety opposite Eddie, a starting CB, dline depth, and two quality WRs(I’m on board if Byrd us brought back)

If the right WR or interior olinemen is there in the 2nd, that’s our move.

I’d take the approach at WR to add 3 really solid players vs one home run hit.

CB
Center
WR
OG
Dline
Swing tackle
Safety


That’s my order of need
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Upon further consideration, it has to be building the best OL to protect JF and give him time to pass.
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Is he the first GM candidate to gain a 2nd interview with the Bears?
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The Cooler King wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 9:39 am
Thanks for answering my question before I asked it... Lol
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bearsoldier wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 9:59 am
Thanks for answering my question before I asked it... Lol
I'm guessing you've never read a terms of service agreement before signing up for a service huh.
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The Cooler King wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 10:00 am
bearsoldier wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 9:59 am
Thanks for answering my question before I asked it... Lol
I'm guessing you've never read a terms of service agreement before signing up for a service huh.
Lol... Try not to most of the time. Seriously though, he is an interesting candidate.
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How well did instituting the KC offense work out last time?
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Grizzled wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 10:10 am How well did instituting the KC offense work out last time?
Well Poles is an executive and not a coach. Also unlike Nagy, he is not just a Reid guy. Served under 3 different GMs now, each with unique styles.
Poles has spent the last 13 seasons working with the Chiefs in various roles as a player personnel assistant (2009), college scouting administrator (2010-12), college scouting director (2013-16), director of college scouting (2017), assistant director of player personnel (2018-20) and executive director of player personnel (2021-present).
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Grizzled wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 10:10 am How well did instituting the KC offense work out last time?
Ugly for sure... That said, I think most would agree they have built a good roster overall and have picked players well from memory of past drafts.

Now if saying, Poles would build a team to be more similar to the Chiefs? Not sure it would be a bad thing...
KC offense is not necessarily a bad thing, its just that Nagy wasn't running a Reid offense... I really don't know what his offense was? The 3, and out?, run 2 yrds and hook, BE YOU offense?
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