Rodgers Trade? (Hypo)

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dplank
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Re: Rodgers Trade? (Hypo)

Sat May 16, 2020 11:03 am

Thx for the correction, but really you just keep spinning stats to suit your agenda. I don't know WHY you have this agenda, but it's clear that you do. Like, even still you just choose to ignore his rushing stats in your negative take. How would Lamar Jackson look if he wasn't running the ball....MVP still? It's different now, you can't just look at passing stats to eval certain QB's in today's NFL. Lamar Jackson had 6 games with under 200 passing yards...6! He also had a stretch where 4 out of 5 games with a QBR under 90. MVP. Legs. It's 2020.

But you spin your stats to make your agenda stick. And that's fine, you can hate Watson if you want to, it's a free country. But the national media, the local media that covers him in Houston, and his PEERS all view Watson as a special player. He turned that whole franchise around, he carries that team on his back, he's a winner just like he was in college. So before you start meticulously digging through advanced metrics trying to find a new way to dig on Watson, I can save you the time. Just stop. Watch the GAMES, and you can see visually who the best players on the field are. Watson is one of the best, if not the best, player on the field in nearly every game he plays. Stats or no stats, it's clear as day to most people. The only way you'll convince me he's not a great player would be if you could somehow prove that the games that I watched were edited somehow and not real. OK? So no more stat spinning - don't care.

You can have a different view, but you're on an island there. You rip Yogi for having "Fatwa's", recognize your own bud. You routinely, regularly, bring this up unprovoked. Any thread where his name gets mentioned for any reason, you find a way to get a dig in. Fatwa. Glass Houses. Stop.

Chuck Pagano's defensive rankings in 6 years with Indy: 26th, 20th, 11th, 26th, 30th, and 30th.
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Re: Rodgers Trade? (Hypo)

Sat May 16, 2020 10:25 pm

I mean - I led it all with we shall see - Mitch was better by these same Ratios in 2018

The median game theory no longer applies though - because we aren't bashing Mitch? That's kind of BS

You can look at Watson's game logs - it's simply a lot more inconsistent than you'd think (I get "Watch the GAMES" but I literally do and I see the stinkers against Jacksonville and the Ravens as well - Those are games too - Most are NOT the Atlanta game)


He turned a team that went 9-7 and 9-7 the two years - and won the Division BOTH years -before he was there and that's a turn around?

What? Facts don't agree with you there

I think the Defense when he got there was a Top 5-10 group (now I think it's probably Top 10 - though Fringe...maybe worse) and he had some really good Skill players (Hopkins helped make Brian Hoyer look good)
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Re: Rodgers Trade? (Hypo)

Sat May 16, 2020 10:29 pm

Lamar Jackson is also a BS comp (aside from him throwing for 36 TD- 10 more than Watson)

He has 1200 Yards Rushing - Lamar was at about 400?

71 First Downs v. 29 First Downs

Those two things are not the same thing

Though I ABSOLUTELY agree that the Rushing Numbers factor into the evaluation - But saying he's akin to Lamar

No.
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Re: Rodgers Trade? (Hypo)

Sun May 17, 2020 4:32 pm

Can we table this til later this Season (at least half way) - See where it is there
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dplank
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Re: Rodgers Trade? (Hypo)

Sun May 17, 2020 7:42 pm

RichH55 wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 4:32 pm
Can we table this til later this Season (at least half way) - See where it is there
I'd prefer we table it forever
Chuck Pagano's defensive rankings in 6 years with Indy: 26th, 20th, 11th, 26th, 30th, and 30th.
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Re: Rodgers Trade? (Hypo)

Mon May 18, 2020 11:11 am

dplank wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 7:42 pm
RichH55 wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 4:32 pm
Can we table this til later this Season (at least half way) - See where it is there
I'd prefer we table it forever
Eh it's worth looking back upon - Just doesn't need to be an every thread / every week type of thing

If he plays great and takes a leap forward - then I'll have to admit that -

Time will tell
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dplank
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Re: Rodgers Trade? (Hypo)

Mon May 18, 2020 7:53 pm

Nope, I'm just begging you to stop. Why does an perennial PRO BOWL and NFLN Top 100 player (voted #51 by his peers) have to "take a leap forward"? What "leap" is he taking exactly? He's already a pro bowl QB! You've set an impossible bar so you won't have to admit shit. Before you said the only reason he was any good was because he had Hopkins and you thought he'd take a major step BACKWARDS without him. Now, he has no Hopkins and you say he has to take a "leap" forward? Do you even hear yourself man?

How about this. If he's a pro bowl QB AGAIN this year, without Hopkins, will you unequivocally admit you were wrong? No hedging, no stat manipulation, just pro bowl or no pro bowl (barring injury). If I'm right, you buy me a Watson jersey - I wear an XXLT. If you're right, I'll buy you a Garoppolo jersey, as a constant reminder of what it's like to be a man and admit it when your wrong, as I did on the Garoppolo argument.

That buys us a year of silence on the matter. That's a win in my book regardless of the outcome.
Chuck Pagano's defensive rankings in 6 years with Indy: 26th, 20th, 11th, 26th, 30th, and 30th.
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Re: Rodgers Trade? (Hypo)

Mon May 18, 2020 8:04 pm

dplank wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 7:53 pm
Nope, I'm just begging you to stop. Why does an perennial PRO BOWL and NFLN Top 100 player (voted #51 by his peers) have to "take a leap forward"? What "leap" is he taking exactly? He's already a pro bowl QB! You've set an impossible bar so you won't have to admit shit. Before you said the only reason he was any good was because he had Hopkins and you thought he'd take a major step BACKWARDS without him. Now, he has no Hopkins and you say he has to take a "leap" forward? Do you even hear yourself man?

How about this. If he's a pro bowl QB AGAIN this year, without Hopkins, will you unequivocally admit you were wrong? No hedging, no stat manipulation, just pro bowl or no pro bowl (barring injury). If I'm right, you buy me a Watson jersey - I wear an XXLT. If you're right, I'll buy you a Garoppolo jersey, as a constant reminder of what it's like to be a man and admit it when your wrong, as I did on the Garoppolo argument.

That buys us a year of silence on the matter. That's a win in my book regardless of the outcome.
Did he make the same Pro Bowl as Mitch or another one?

Taking away the Atlanta game and I don't think Watson is a star - the consistency and numbers just aren't there.

(The whole he rescued the Texans thing was a Bad take)

I don't think the Pro Bowl means much - especially with the number of people who drop out and the popularity part

I think he was take a step backwards - It's a Bad division - that helps - But I think you are looking at like 25 TD/ 15 INT 3700 yards

That's nice - certainly you can do worse

It's not a star
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Re: Rodgers Trade? (Hypo)

Mon May 18, 2020 8:46 pm

NFL Network ranks the QB's, they ranked Watson 5th. Morons! RichH knows better!

Watson makes the Pro Bowl every year he's been in the NFL. Voted on by a combo of coaches, players, and fans. ALL IDIOTS! RichH knows more than them all!

NFL Players rank the players that they, you know, actually play against. Watson makes this coveted list and is #51 last year (his 2nd in the pros). Morons! RichH played at a top level, he would know better.

Seeing a pattern yet? All these people are wrong and you can go all rain man on the stats and see the true light? You're on an island here, surely you can at least recognize that general consensus is that Watson is a star player. You might think their all wrong, but tell me you at least have some sense of situational awareness here...

So where you think he'll land this year on the Top 100? Higher or Lower or not at all? I bet he moves up, Top 40 is my guess. Wanna bet on that? What number does one have to achieve here for Rich to consider them a "star" anyways? I'd argue every player on that list is a star, maybe we have a definition problem? Are only the top 10 players "stars" to you? Honest question, this may be the crux of the whole thing.

So how about it. Top 40 NFL players as voted on by their peers. Dude, in all no BS seriousness, if you can't agree to any defined standard, then you really should just stop trolling about it and let it go. Random stat manipulations in the face of overwhelming public consensus is a losing hand. You're reaching Gib level trolling.
Chuck Pagano's defensive rankings in 6 years with Indy: 26th, 20th, 11th, 26th, 30th, and 30th.
RichH55
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Re: Rodgers Trade? (Hypo)

Fri May 22, 2020 10:02 pm

dplank wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 8:46 pm
NFL Network ranks the QB's, they ranked Watson 5th. Morons! RichH knows better!

Watson makes the Pro Bowl every year he's been in the NFL. Voted on by a combo of coaches, players, and fans. ALL IDIOTS! RichH knows more than them all!

NFL Players rank the players that they, you know, actually play against. Watson makes this coveted list and is #51 last year (his 2nd in the pros). Morons! RichH played at a top level, he would know better.

Seeing a pattern yet? All these people are wrong and you can go all rain man on the stats and see the true light? You're on an island here, surely you can at least recognize that general consensus is that Watson is a star player. You might think their all wrong, but tell me you at least have some sense of situational awareness here...

So where you think he'll land this year on the Top 100? Higher or Lower or not at all? I bet he moves up, Top 40 is my guess. Wanna bet on that? What number does one have to achieve here for Rich to consider them a "star" anyways? I'd argue every player on that list is a star, maybe we have a definition problem? Are only the top 10 players "stars" to you? Honest question, this may be the crux of the whole thing.

So how about it. Top 40 NFL players as voted on by their peers. Dude, in all no BS seriousness, if you can't agree to any defined standard, then you really should just stop trolling about it and let it go. Random stat manipulations in the face of overwhelming public consensus is a losing hand. You're reaching Gib level trolling.
"Watson makes the Pro Bowl every year he's been in the NFL."
Did Watson make the Pro Bowl his first year when he got hurt and played 6 Games? That can't be

If he did - that really shows the stupidity of it for showing "who is a star"

I mean he was only average or worse on 8 games last year - HURRAH
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Re: Rodgers Trade? (Hypo)

Sat May 23, 2020 1:21 pm

No, my bad, every year he's played most games... Way to pick a minor nit and ignore the main thrust and rest of the post there. It's not easy, but you've achieved "full Gibron". Well done.
Chuck Pagano's defensive rankings in 6 years with Indy: 26th, 20th, 11th, 26th, 30th, and 30th.
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Re: Rodgers Trade? (Hypo)

Sat May 23, 2020 9:58 pm

You coined the Mitch theory about Stats coming in the big games and the median games not so good

Though I know you think his 2018 Pro Bowl makes Mitch a god - certainly not calling for Chase Daniel repeatedly
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Re: Rodgers Trade? (Hypo)

Sat May 23, 2020 9:59 pm

We should get a season to prove it - When Watson is solid again and the Texans are between 7-9 and 9-7 best case then you can crow how Great he is.
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Re: Rodgers Trade? (Hypo)

Sun May 24, 2020 9:40 am

RichH55 wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 9:58 pm
You coined the Mitch theory about Stats coming in the big games and the median games not so good

Though I know you think his 2018 Pro Bowl makes Mitch a god - certainly not calling for Chase Daniel repeatedly
I didn't coin anything, I just said you can't look at just stats because you can spin them a hundred different ways if you are being intentionally devious. You can pick a stretch of good games, or bad games, or one particular stat vs another, to make any point you want. With Mitch, it starts with the eyeball test just like everyone else. He looked awful to me, missing open receivers left and right. The offense was awful, he appeared to not see the field well. So my take was IN RESPONSE to someone pointing out some statistical spin that ran counter to basic intuition, and as I now realize you just can't return fire with stats of your own because the spin machine is a never ending circle of futility.

You are either talking with people in good faith or you aren't. I used to believe we could talk in good faith, maybe that will return someday, but you appear to just want to be right all the time and poke at people instead of having honest conversation. Really takes the fun out of it. I think it all started with your major face plant on the Trubisky draft selection/smoke screen. Dude, you just gotta get over it, laugh at yourself a little! I can with Chase - clearly a call of deparation borne out of pure frustration and futility!

A year from now, after Watson plays well with his clearly awful surrounding cast, you'll still be wrong about him. But will you admit it even then? I have my doubts, but I'm rooting for you Rich. I know you can be better than Gib. You just gotta let your ego/guard down a little bit, being wrong on an internet message board isn't the end of the world. You might find it liberating when you first try it!

Hey, what's the icon under Watson's Madden avatar? Can't quite make it out....kinda looks like a star? Do all Madden players get those? Odd...

Image

So let's give it a year then...peace out.
Chuck Pagano's defensive rankings in 6 years with Indy: 26th, 20th, 11th, 26th, 30th, and 30th.
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Re: Rodgers Trade? (Hypo)

Sun May 24, 2020 8:33 pm

Fucking Madden counts as Facts now?

For Fucks Sake
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Re: Rodgers Trade? (Hypo)

Sun May 24, 2020 8:39 pm

Also - THIS "Watson plays well with his clearly awful surrounding cast,"

IS NOT TRUE

It IS worse than it was - Texans actually have had a LOT of talent on Offense and Defense the last 5 years or so (Top 10 Defense - Great pass receiving options highlighted by Hopkins)

Again - always, always, always - unaddressed by Dplank -

This was a team that won a division WITH Brian Hoyer and made him look solid in the Process - They also won the Division the year DIRECTLY before getting Watson with Brock Osweiler (Brock did NOT look solid - but this was a team that DID win a division with an absolutely subpar QB)

It is not AWFUL now though - The offensive skills players are more average/slightly above average - with a better OL then in previous memory (last year as well) and the Defense more above average rather than very good

It's not awful though - that's BS

Maybe consult Madden rankings?!?!?!?!@#?!#?!#?!#?
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Re: Rodgers Trade? (Hypo)

Mon May 25, 2020 10:21 am

This was a team that won a division WITH Brian Hoyer and made him look solid in the Process - They also won the Division the year DIRECTLY before getting Watson with Brock Osweiler (Brock did NOT look solid - but this was a team that DID win a division with an absolutely subpar QB
4 years ago is an eternity in the NFL. They were all defense back then, Watt is a shell of himself and never healthy. Clowney is gone. Their division was TERRIBLE back then too, no longer. The Titans and Colts are both very good, as is Houston. Their offense is winning for them now. Nice try though, but total fail. I'm just trying to follow your Erin Rodgers logic here, but I guess even that won't suffice. All you've done is whine about him having Hopkins, now Hopkins is gone, he has an abysmal OL, no TE, and now no #1 WR....but you won't even grant him approval if he still succeeds. Erin has Davante, a top flight WR, but all you do is say he has Lazard/Allison. Erin has had a VERY good OL, decent TE's, and a star #1 WR in Adams. It's just a blatant lie when you do it....because he missed 4 whole games last year? lol. Erin has better weapons than Watson does now that Hopkins is gone, period.

The word "star" isn't directly mappable to stats there rain man. Madden views him as a star, therefore they put a star under his avatar. On the Bears, the only star on Madden is Mack. Seems about right.
And it's not a main point, it's just yet another example of a media entity that has labeled Watson a "star player". At some point the sheer cumulative effect has to weigh on you, I've shown example after example of it. The term Star is a subjective term used by fans, sportswriters, etc based on a number of factors that include great play but also include things like: clutch plays, personality/hype, highlight type plays (see Odell there), media persona, carryover from NCAA success, etc etc etc. But you need those numbers or else you can't play games with them can you!

There's nothing this guy can do to win you over, so be it. I'm happy being on the side of the 90% here, have fun with that. And despite insisting on numbers, you refuse to bet on it with a simple measure of success - that tells the real truth. I'd just ask that you stop with the Gib impressions and troll elsewhere. Put up or shut up as they say. I'm right here, ready to put up...are you? If not, just STFU and move on.
Chuck Pagano's defensive rankings in 6 years with Indy: 26th, 20th, 11th, 26th, 30th, and 30th.
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Re: Rodgers Trade? (Hypo)

Mon May 25, 2020 10:44 am

This was a team that won a division WITH Brian Hoyer and made him look solid in the Process - They also won the Division the year DIRECTLY before getting Watson with Brock Osweiler (Brock did NOT look solid - but this was a team that DID win a division with an absolutely subpar QB
4 years ago is an eternity in the NFL. They were all defense back then, Watt is a shell of himself and never healthy. Clowney is gone. Their division was TERRIBLE back then too, no longer. The Titans and Colts are both very good, as is Houston. Their offense is winning for them now. Nice try though, but total fail. I'm just trying to follow your Erin Rodgers logic here, but I guess even that won't suffice. All you've done is whine about him having Hopkins, now Hopkins is gone, he has an abysmal OL, no TE, and now no #1 WR....but you won't even grant him approval if he still succeeds. Erin has Davante, a top flight WR, but all you do is say he has Lazard/Allison. Erin has had a VERY good OL, decent TE's, and a star #1 WR in Adams. It's just a blatant lie when you do it....because he missed 4 whole games last year? lol. Erin has better weapons than Watson does now that Hopkins is gone, period. YOU YOURSELF SAID THAT WE'LL SEE HOW WATSON FARES NOW THAT HOPKINS IS GONE, AND NOW YOU'RE BACKTRACKING ON YOUR OWN POINT. Ego's a bitch.

The word "star" isn't directly mappable to stats there rain man. Madden views him as a star, therefore they put a star under his avatar. On the Bears, the only star on Madden is Mack. Seems about right.
And it's not a main point, it's just yet another example of a media entity that has labeled Watson a "star player". At some point the sheer cumulative effect has to weigh on you, I've shown example after example of it. The term Star is a subjective term used by fans, sportswriters, etc based on a number of factors that include great play but also include things like: clutch plays, personality/hype, highlight type plays (see Odell there), media persona, carryover from NCAA success, etc etc etc. But you need those numbers or else you can't play games with them can you!

There's nothing this guy can do to win you over, so be it. I'm happy being on the side of the 90% here, have fun with that. And despite insisting on numbers, you refuse to bet on it with a simple measure of success - that tells the real truth. I'd just ask that you stop with the Gib impressions and troll elsewhere. Put up or shut up as they say. I'm right here, ready to put up...are you? If not, just STFU and move on.
Chuck Pagano's defensive rankings in 6 years with Indy: 26th, 20th, 11th, 26th, 30th, and 30th.
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Re: Rodgers Trade? (Hypo)

Mon May 25, 2020 6:38 pm

The division is still pretty Meh to be fair (Jacksonville will be trotting out a Bad team - and clearly the worst team they have fielded in at least 5-6 Years) (Colts are ok - but they aren't as good as the Luck years because no Luck), Tenn? I don't know - I do know they aren't a juggernaut (I suspect the overall talent on the team is Pretty Solid as it has been for Years now - but I really do feel like a Tannenhill regression is coming and I think Henry will be only like 85% as good as last year - which will hurt) - I do Not think it's a particularly Good division

Also- ". All you've done is whine about him having Hopkins, now Hopkins is gone, he has an abysmal OL, no TE, and now no #1 WR."

This is utter and complete nonsense - I don't think the OL was EVER abysmal - They protected Brock and Hoyer adequately (and last year they were IMHO GOOD - Tunsil is a Top 5-7 LT at worst - Watson was still sacked ALOT). Watson loves holding onto the Ball - It is his Game after all

My point is - and I'm not sure why this is Hard to understand - I think Hopkins was one of the Best WR in the league for this entire run (certainly better than D. Adams) - I think that opened up things considerably - Which I think for Elite WR (I don't put D. Adams in that Class - I think he's a tier down from that - But take a guy like Julio Jones - I absolutely think he made Matt Ryan seem better

So I think that will hurt (more coverage for other guys - less production from the #1 WR, easier for Defenses to Scheme)

That is NOT the same thing as saying - Well now without Hopkins the WR SUCK. That's not true.

Cobb (overpaid - yes), Cooks (overpaid- yes, wisdom of dealing a 2nd for him - questionable) - but Those are still Legit NFL WR - That's not Allan Lazard and Geronimo Allison either - Fair?

I think the Fuller, Cooks, Cobb (and depth guys like Stills and Keke Coutee) is a reasonable solid - and definately Deep WR group - IT CERTAINLY is not as good as when Hopkins was in it - but that's not the worst WR group in the NFL or anything either

We SHOULD get a nice test case - I expect Kyler Murrays numbers to go up (I expect him to have a better year than Watson numbers wise - Record? I don't know as I think the NFC West is probably the Best Division in Football) and I expect Watson's numbers to go down some

I attribute a decent amount on both to Hopkins - but assuming all three of Murray, Watson, and Hopkins stay reasonably healthy there SHOULD be lessons we can derive from it



JJ Watt played all 16 games in 2018 BTW (Only 3 in the Brock Osweiler 9 Win year) and Had 16 Sacks


The Madden shit - just stop with that BS - Perhaps you can rank QBs based on Instagram Followers next? It's just stupid

Tim Tebow was a Star to the Media as well - that's not how you evaluate Football Players though
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Re: Rodgers Trade? (Hypo)

Tue May 26, 2020 8:17 am

Cobb (overpaid - yes), Cooks (overpaid- yes, wisdom of dealing a 2nd for him - questionable) - but Those are still Legit NFL WR - That's not Allan Lazard and Geronimo Allison either - Fair?
There you go again. Why do you compare WR's and leave out 3 time pro bowler Davante Adams when you compare them? That's like comparing LB corps with us and another team and leaving out Khalil Mack in the comp.

You still consider Rodgers a great player and Top 5 at his position and in your uber literal, statistics driven world you write off Rodgers statistical rankings because of the weapons he lacks. And because of Hopkins, you write off Watson's successes as being derivative of the players around him. How else do you counter the NFL.com take that Watson is the better player right now? They rank him 5th in the NFL, and rank Rodgers at 7th. And it was a weighted average across 4 experts, not a single one of the 4 experts ranked Rodgers ahead of Watson - all 4 had Watson as the better player. Yet you still think Rodgers is a great player and Watson isn't. How is that exactly? Do you think they were unaware that Hopkins plays on the Texans? There just isn't that much of a gap between Hopkins/Cobb and Adams/Allison, I'd give the edge to Hopkins/Cobb there but only by a smidge. And yet, Watson outperformed according to the experts.

Heading into 2020 there will be a talent gap, Cobb/Cooks is not nearly as good as Adams/Allison (Cobb SUCKS dude, GB let him go in favor of what they have, nuff said). I'll have to keep reminding you that Adams plays on GB. Call their lines a wash if you want, neither are awe inspiring. RB I give the edge to GB. TE is a wash, neither really have anything there. So heading into this year, Rodgers has better tools for success, primarily because of Adams. After Watson bests Rodgers again, will you change your tune?
Chuck Pagano's defensive rankings in 6 years with Indy: 26th, 20th, 11th, 26th, 30th, and 30th.
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Re: Rodgers Trade? (Hypo)

Tue May 26, 2020 10:25 am

I'm not sure you know what you are talking about here (Though I'm glad "Peers and Viewpoints" matter - Hence Why you Think PRO BOWL RIGHT TACKLE Kyle Long was so good at Right Tackle right?)

I absolutely addressed Adams and didn't leave him out - I think he's Very Good - But a CLEAR Tier down from the Julio Jones and D. Hopkins types

Adams has 1 1,000 Yard season in his Career (Close two other times of course - and Last year if he didn't miss 4 Games (I think he was injured in Part of a 5th? But I'd have to look that up) he certainly WOULD have had 1000 (Rodgers was basically forcing him the Ball

Cooks have 4 1000 Yard seasons with THREE different QBs (I think that matters - maybe you don't - but you aren't really being Reasonable in this thread so why start now). Cooks and Adams are similar ages and years

Would I rather have Adams or Cooks (just on the player - ignoring Salary or cost to acquire) - Adams - Yes. Does that also mean that I don't think Adams's numbers are helped by 1) Rodgers and 2) the complete lack of anything else out there so he has to be forcefed?

Or that Cooks is a Legit NFL WR - Again that isn't Allan Lazard or Geronimo Allison


Cobb - GB let him go because the Cap Hit was very high - and his 2018 was Bad. His 2019? Pretty solid - He's a capable #2 WR or very good #3 WR based on Last Year (My issue was the Salary and why pay him instead of just giving Hopkins a WELL earned Raise)

But to suggest Cobb is bad - just isn't correct.

*NOTE I didn't check what Madden said - so take this all with a grain of salt since I'm using facts and figures and reason - Not the way to response to "LOOK AT THIS STAR UNDERNEATH HIM MAN"


I think if you take away the QB - the Texans have more talent on the Team than the Packers (I have pretty LONG been on Record as noting that the Packers have - Apart from QB - been in the bottom Half of Talent League wide)

Packers have a worse OL - and I have come to really love Bakhtiari as a player (wish he wasn't a Packer) - but he's basically a wash with Tunsil - Packers are going to trot the ghost of Rickey Wagner out at RT


" I'd give the edge to Hopkins/Cobb there but only by a smidge." (Cobb wasn't a Texan last year - that's a weird combo to take - Makes me think you don't know what you are talking about - Did you mean Fuller (Who is actually a very good WR - his main issue is health. Though he really only missed 1-2 games more than Adams last year)

Either way - that's a bad take


I think you get to WR 5/6 on the Texans before you'd play Packer WR #2 - That's a big difference

Overall I think the Texans WR this year are Solid - just a Clear, clear step down from having Hopkins who was absolutely ELITE.

We shall see - I look forward to your excuses

If Watson has like a 29 TD, 10 INT, under 45 Sacks type of year - Especially if it isn't like he had 6 TD one game! then was mediocre for 8 others - You can expect me to Post on that and give him his Due.

I expect something like 23 TD, 16 INT, 50 Sacks and a record between 7-9 & 9-7 (Division is just bad - in the NFC West I think that's a 6 Win team)

Not a scrub by any Stretch - but certainly not a Star - despite what the Videogames are telling you

We shall see
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Re: Rodgers Trade? (Hypo)

Tue May 26, 2020 11:07 am

I'm not the one who needs excuses Rich. You're the one who is defying all the experts here, not me. If everyone else sees Watson as a top QB and you don't, the onus is on YOU to prove otherwise.

Also, that division is not bad. It used to be bad, but not anymore. Makes me question if you watch games or just read stats. Tennessee, Houston, and Indy are all good football teams. Jacksonville sucks. That division ranked second in the AFC last year and is on the rise.

But finally you man up and put something down as a marker. Congrats!

How do you define the term "star" exactly? Since you're on a roll actually putting things down in some verifiable form, maybe you could enlighten me on how you rain man your way to "star" status in Rich's book? Do I need a subscription to FiveThirtyEight to unravel the math? I asked once and you dodged it...
Chuck Pagano's defensive rankings in 6 years with Indy: 26th, 20th, 11th, 26th, 30th, and 30th.
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Re: Rodgers Trade? (Hypo)

Tue May 26, 2020 11:10 pm

You get that he doesn't play against Houston right?

And I watched 9 Colts games last year (to deal with the foolish Gib thinking they were great nonsense) - They are inherently average (with a Good OL - and not much else) (*)

(*) This year will depend on Rivers - so I will amend as needed there. - Right now I have them pegged as pretty average - I'd take literally any team in the NFC West over them (would you?)

Tennessee - That's a lot to put on Tannenhill repeating (and Henry being THAT good again and healthy all year

Possible? Sure. Henry is a play on health - but just a basic Tannenhill regression (not even all of it ) would hurt and is not exactly a huge leap - I think losing Casey's production will hurt too

I have the NFC West as the best division - take your pick after between NFC South and North

After that its pickem -ones mileage can vary (do you believe in Bellichick? Or what about Daniel Brown or Baker Mayfield? All fair debates IMHO)

Texans actually had more Points Against than Points For this last season - Typically a Bad Omen

The Jags are bad - they are in the discussion for the Top pick

Star is an interesting question (I give credit for the biggest stage IN THE NFL (Not Watsons wheelhouse so far) and credit for numbers) - I assume I have higher standards than you ( I would NOT call Dak a Star for example and his numbers in 2019 were clearly better than Watson's). NOR is Jimmy G for that matter

13th in Yards, and tied for 8th with 4 guys in TD doesn't crack that barrier though. Especially since the INT numbers are kind of average

If Texans are 8-8 with 3950 Yards, 23 TD, 15 INT for Watson - is he a Star in that scenario (throw in decent Rushing numbers though certainly nothing like Lamar)

To me - I also need Watson to either take less Sacks - or have bigger counting numbers to make that risk/reward ratio come out better
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Re: Rodgers Trade? (Hypo)

Wed May 27, 2020 9:26 am

Yea I'd consider Dak a star for sure, the dude might be the highest paid player in the NFL. And I wouldn't say Watson hasn't performed on the biggest stage, he's a clutch player and made an INCREDIBLE, GAME WINNING, clutch play to beat the BIlls in the playoffs last year. And him winning an NCAA championship over Alabama had him come into the league with some juice also (agreed that only goes so far, see: Tebow, Tim). But unlike Tebow, Watson stepped in and immediately played well, so the comps end real fast there. I would not label Garrapollo a star, but Dak I would, Watson I would...I think we have a difference in definitions here. It's a subjective term. To me, big plays in big moments really matter a lot.

Speaking of salary, that'll be telling won't it? Word is Watson is going to break the bank, only to be usurped by Mahome's deal shortly after (kind of like a Mack followed by Donald deal). Here's an article talking about Watson "resetting the QB market" with his deal. While there are mistakes out there (thinking Goff among others), generally speaking guys who "reset markets" are great, star players aren't they? There's just an avalanche of evidence pointing this direction dude.

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/texa ... -contract/
Chuck Pagano's defensive rankings in 6 years with Indy: 26th, 20th, 11th, 26th, 30th, and 30th.
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Re: Rodgers Trade? (Hypo)

Wed May 27, 2020 10:40 pm

Alabama - Again - Not the NFL (that's just so dumb to bring up for this argument)

Tim Tebow is maybe the best College player I've ever seen (Throw Vince Young on that list too) - That isn't the NFL - That's real bad

Watson is 1-2 in the Playoffs (In the NFL - since for some reason I have to mention I'm talking about the NFL not College, not fucking Madden) - Which is to say - Not good

Is he going to reset the market the same way Goff and Kirk Cousins did? Like Jimmy G did?

Tom Brady - for multiple Super Bowl wins - was something like the 15th Highest Paid

Going to be all these things pointing to him being a Star - just not what happens ON the field for some reason - Cool
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Re: Rodgers Trade? (Hypo)

Thu May 28, 2020 8:37 am

Jeez, I thought I was winding this down not amping it up. Maybe re read my post a second time, slowly, and without angry demons in your head when you do so. I pre-address the majority of your snark.

Bottom line, when you finally realize you're wrong, just remember that you've been wrong the whole time and eat crow properly. Don't say, Oh well NOW he's a good player BUT I WAS RIGHT THEN or some other cop out (see: Trubisky, SmokeScreen).

Now, for what SHOULD be the final death blow...this article just came out TODAY.

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/2020 ... ter-ranks/
Tier 1: Bona fide franchise quarterbacks

2020: Mahomes, Lamar Jackson, Wilson, Deshaun Watson, Brady, Brees, Rodgers, Carson Wentz, Roethlisberger
Image

Rich, if you have any pride left, it's time to back off. Watson is placed in the top tier of franchise QB's here....are they wrong too? And, to boot, he openly admits there's a sub tier in this class as he has "questions" about Rodgers (age), Wentz (inj), and Rapesburger (inj) - so he really has him Top 5 behind Mahomes, Wilson, Jackson,and likely Brees.

I mean, cmon man, NFLN is wrong (they put him 5th)? CBSSPORTS is wrong (They lump him in with 7 others in the top tier and likely top 5)? The actual NFL PLAYERS are wrong (They voted him a Top 50 player last year)? But you are right? And I'm the one being unreasonable? Really? Please just take a breath, step back and reevaluate the situation.

I'd like to end this, but would greatly appreciate a moment of candor.

1. Can you at least admit that the consensus opinion is that Watson is a great player (assuming you agree that top5 = great)?
2. Can you directly answer how you still cling to your minority opinion in the face of this?
Chuck Pagano's defensive rankings in 6 years with Indy: 26th, 20th, 11th, 26th, 30th, and 30th.
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Re: Rodgers Trade? (Hypo)

Thu May 28, 2020 9:32 am

Look we will see how the season goes - Which I have been saying from the beginning

Did you watch that Playoff game last year? I thought it was a lot of the plusses and minuses of Watson (Took WAY too many sacks - several just badly on him) - No Points in the First Half - Defense and Josh Allen kept the Texans in the game

But Watson was better in the 2nd half and Clutch like you said - Many a time when you play like he did overall and maybe you don't get a chance to be clutch (Game has gotten away from you) - It was shades of Mitch's Playoff Game

Though Mitch also doesn't blow 24-0 Leads (With 14 coming directly or essentially directly from Special Teams mind you

Clutch!

Top 5 does not necessarily equal great - but I don't think Watson is going to be Top 5 - so that's an academic argument anyway

He's a good player - Not a Star (from his consistent good play that is - Famous due to Clemson? Will make certain plays that are "WOW"plays? Sure.

Ironically to this discussion - I think him being in a place to earn a monster contract - will be a final nail in noting that he's good not a Star.

As it will limit the Texans ability to be a great team in other places - You are going to probably watch an arguably Top 5 Defense go to more like Top 15 (still solid - NOT a trash fire) and going from D. Hopkins elite WR play to merely Solid (but decently deep) WR play
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Re: Rodgers Trade? (Hypo)

Thu May 28, 2020 10:04 am

Here's what you aren't getting. I'm saying he's already a great player, you disagree. So I go on to show you, with multiple examples, that my opinion is the consensus opinion. So why do we have to see how the season goes when we already have NFLN (4 experts there), and CBSSports, and the NFL Players, all already seeing it the way I do? Just to appease you? No. As of this moment, you are wrong. Period. You have to start by admitting that, you lost this round Rich.

Maybe you can win Round 2, maybe Watson will tank and suck from here on out, who knows. I doubt it but it's possible. But I don't play with cheaters. So you need to admit that as of right now, the consensus opinion is with ME, not YOU. I need to hear you say it. You have not admitted it yet, despite me showing you multiple examples of consensus opinion from media experts.

So lets hear it, do you or don't you admit that the consensus opinion, as of right now, is that Watson is a great, top tier QB in the NFL? This does not require a lengthy response, but it is a manhood check bud. It tells me if you are being an honest broker, or a Gibron.
Chuck Pagano's defensive rankings in 6 years with Indy: 26th, 20th, 11th, 26th, 30th, and 30th.
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Re: Rodgers Trade? (Hypo)

Fri May 29, 2020 4:58 pm

Interesting silence. What's so hard about admitting what's so plainly obvious? It screams trolling man, don't be that guy. Just admit that the starting point for the rest of this conversation, of which you might ultimately get vindicated, is that as of right now, the league and those that report on it see Watson as one of the top QB's in the NFL. I've cited multiple, recent proof points, from a variety of sources. Does it hurt that much to just say....looks like I was wrong, but I'm sticking with my theory even though I recognize it goes against common wisdom at this point in time.
Chuck Pagano's defensive rankings in 6 years with Indy: 26th, 20th, 11th, 26th, 30th, and 30th.
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Re: Rodgers Trade? (Hypo)

Sat May 30, 2020 12:56 pm

Silence?

Hopkins just said he expects his numbers to go Up this year (PEERS) and they criticized the Texans stagnant offense (rotoworld - since that for some reason matters more than what happens on the Field?)

He was only a Pro Bowl alternate for the 2018 season (elevated to Roster for Tom Brady being in Super Bowl)

Which of these below in Untrue (for this Star making 2019!!!!)
1) Texans gave up more points than they Scored

2) Texans were NOT Top Ten in Either Total Offensive Yardage or Passing Yardage

3). Texans were NOT Top Ten in Points Scored

4) Texans even with a Top 5 Left Tackle were a top 6 Most Sacked Team (It looks like clearly Top 5 since they gave up some sacks in the Game Watson didn't play in too - but I dont want to go through a ton of Backup QB numbers around the league)

Incentidentally - I did more research into why Team Rankings was so far off on Sacks - Turns out they were NOT wrong - it's just they Counted Playoffs too

Which isn't really Apples to Apples for Regular Season - THOUGH it IS worth noting that Watson took a SHOCKING 11 Sacks in the 2019 Playoffs

(Maybe you can answer my questions too? Any of those stats mean anything to you? I was kind of shocked to see the 11 Sacks number for the Playoffs - that's really bad)


If you are asking me if I particularly care about Conventional Wisdom? I don't either way . But since you did ask is the Conventional Wisdom closer to me or you? (common wisdom - so I'm quoting accurrately)

I absolutely do think the Thought process out there would agree with you more than me. Yes.

Does that matter in any way? Well, no.

Also - I don't think Watson sucks - that's kind of A shitty way to interpret my take (THAT IS A LIE in fact) I'm not saying he's Chase Daniels here

I'm saying he's Dplanks version of Chase Daniels - Which is too say a Good QB in the league (Top 10-15), but not a Star. (SLIGHT JOKE - Sadly only Slight)



(Ironically the only other poster in this thread Richie agrees with me - to wit: "Watson is "good". I have not seen much to indicate he's "great". His sack rate is largely his fault, as well.")


I mean one of your Points has been: "NFLN Top 100 player (voted #51 by his peers) " Which is to say- like the 3rd Rated Texan that year? (I believe TWO Texans were Top 15 in that voting) - I don't really think #51 player is a Star - but Ok

Or this: "Watson makes the Pro Bowl every year he's been in the NFL" (Putting aside he didn't actually in his 1st year) - He was a Pro Bowl Alternate for the 2018 season - Which I'm NOT saying is BAD - but that's a Star?

When you were railing about Mitch not being good - BEFORE LAST YEAR (TO YOUR CREDIT) (even during 2018 when he actually was good overall) - and Mitch was a Pro Bowler and his Peers and the Media thought he was good - I'm sure the consensus mattered more than the numbers and your thoughts, right?

Feel free to actually address the points I make - rather than another Madden screenshot

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