WATCH OUT!! The end of the world is coming!!!

RING4CHI · Sun Jan 18, 2009 7:09 pm

The Arizona Cardinals are going to the Super Bowl. I never thought I would see it happen in my lifetime. Way back in the day somebody probably said, "Yeah, the Cardinals will go to the Super Bowl....when a black man is elected president!"

G08 · Sun Jan 18, 2009 9:00 pm

Can't discount Kurt Warner anymore... Hall of Fame?

Otis Day · Sun Jan 18, 2009 10:51 pm

G08 wrote:Can't discount Kurt Warner anymore... Hall of Fame?

This is still a tough call for me even if he wins it. If he doesn't win it, I am going to say doubtful, but then you look at Jim Kelly getting in and you would think they would put Warner in as well.

I think the HOF standards are not as high as they should be.

RING4CHI · Mon Jan 19, 2009 12:10 am

G08 wrote:Can't discount Kurt Warner anymore... Hall of Fame?

Win or lose in two weeks, look at the company Warner is in when looking at combined league MVPs and Super Bowl appearances.

http://bearsfansonline.com/phpBB3/viewt ... 4773#p4773

I still believe he needs to WIN the Super Bowl to make the Hall of Fame. Lose it and I think he's a long shot.

ghost of halas · Mon Jan 19, 2009 1:03 am

Otis Day wrote:
This is still a tough call for me even if he wins it. If he doesn't win it, I am going to say doubtful, but then you look at Jim Kelly getting in and you would think they would put Warner in as well.

I think the HOF standards are not as high as they should be.

Besides this being his third Super Bowl...and being a 2 time NFL MVP, he has a Roy Hobbs-like story. I'll definitely tell my son about Warner when he grows up...and I can't think of many other players that I would put into that category.

Seems like a HOF'er to me. Especially if he puts up a 300 yd + performance and wins against the Steelers in the Superbowl.

gaba · Mon Jan 19, 2009 1:40 am

It'd certainly be vindication for those teams (the Cardinals included) that saw him as little more than a back-up... but I'm still not sure about the Hall of Fame. He's got some impressive numbers, but it's not about numbers... at least it shouldn't be.

If it were all about stats, you could look at the All-Time passing leaders and perhaps have an argument for Steve DeBerg or Dave Kreig. The TD passes list might add Drew Bledsoe and Vinny Testaverde (one of my personal favorites but not a Hall of Famer in my eyes). Numbers don't tell the story. Kurt Warner has been a very good quarterback. He's also been a pretty poor one.

It will be hard to argue with that second Superbowl ring though. (He's still got to win it, but I'm pulling for him.) Maybe he should talk to Jim Plunkett.

Otis Day · Mon Jan 19, 2009 10:33 am

It'd certainly be vindication for those teams (the Cardinals included) that saw him as little more than a back-up.

Yea, Warner as a backup to Rex?

RING4CHI · Mon Jan 19, 2009 2:23 pm

gaba wrote:It'd certainly be vindication for those teams (the Cardinals included) that saw him as little more than a back-up... but I'm still not sure about the Hall of Fame. He's got some impressive numbers, but it's not about numbers... at least it shouldn't be.

If it were all about stats, you could look at the All-Time passing leaders and perhaps have an argument for Steve DeBerg or Dave Kreig. The TD passes list might add Drew Bledsoe and Vinny Testaverde (one of my personal favorites but not a Hall of Famer in my eyes). Numbers don't tell the story. Kurt Warner has been a very good quarterback. He's also been a pretty poor one.

It will be hard to argue with that second Superbowl ring though. (He's still got to win it, but I'm pulling for him.) Maybe he should talk to Jim Plunkett.

Steve DeBerg?! Dave Kreig?! That's your argument? Please come with more Chris Chandler "comparisons" because I hear when one laughs hard enough, they can get a good workout, and I need a good workout.

IE · Mon Jan 19, 2009 2:30 pm

Even without the 2009 SB, I'd definitely put Warner on this list before a number of these guys already on this list....

HOF Modern Era: Quarterbacks (23)

Troy Aikman 1989-2000
George Blanda (Also PK) 1949-1958, 1960-1975
Terry Bradshaw 1970-1983
Len Dawson 1957-1975
John Elway 1983-1998
Dan Fouts 1973-1987
Otto Graham 1946-1955
Bob Griese 1967-1980
Sonny Jurgensen 1957-1974
Jim Kelly 1986-1996
Bobby Layne 1948-1962
Dan Marino 1983-1999
Joe Montana 1979-1994
Warren Moon 1984-2000
Joe Namath 1965-1977
Bart Starr 1956-1971
Roger Staubach 1969-1979
Fran Tarkenton 1961-1978
Y.A. Tittle 1948-1964
Johnny Unitas 1956-1973
Norm Van Brocklin 1949-1960
Bob Waterfield 1945-1952
Steve Young 1985-1999

gaba · Mon Jan 19, 2009 6:21 pm

imprint3454 wrote:Steve DeBerg?! Dave Kreig?! That's your argument? Please come with more Chris Chandler "comparisons" because I hear when one laughs hard enough, they can get a good workout, and I need a good workout.

That's my point. Those guys are clearly not Hall of Fame material, but if you look at the stats, their names appear among some of the greatest of all time. They've got more passing yards than Steve Young, Y.A. Tittle or Troy Aikman. Drew Bledsoe's got more yards than Joe Montana.

I'm just trying to point out that numbers and stats don't make a great quarterback. I've been thinking about it a lot lately. Mostly because of the annual brett f*vre media bl0wj0b... one superbowl and a long career does not make one "the best ever"... but I think it still applies to guys like Warner. MAYBE... maybe he really is making his team better, but I'm looking at the talent around him and I'm not so sure. On the other hand... all that talent wasn't really able to do anything without him. He's CLEARLY the missing piece in Arizona... but does that mean he's great enough to be in the Hall of Fame. Personally, I'd like to think it does... I like the guy, I'm just not sure he's all that great.

I hope you're right though. I'd kind of like to see him in the Hall of Fame. There are certainly less deserving men in there.

Ormazd · Mon Jan 19, 2009 7:35 pm

IE,
I think Warner is HOF worthy, but I wonder who on that list you think he's better than.

RING4CHI · Mon Jan 19, 2009 7:39 pm

gaba wrote:That's my point. Those guys are clearly not Hall of Fame material, but if you look at the stats, their names appear among some of the greatest of all time. They've got more passing yards than Steve Young, Y.A. Tittle or Troy Aikman. Drew Bledsoe's got more yards than Joe Montana.

That's why I brought up the whole Super Bowl appearances/league MVPs numbers. Why are guys like Troy Aikman and Terry Bradshaw in the Hall of Fame, and guys like DeBerg not? Aikman and Bradshaw don't have stats that make your eyes pop out. The answer is simply because they won in the month of January. If Kurt Warner wins the Super Bowl, he'll be the first quarterback in NFL history to start and win the Super Bowl with 2 different teams. When it comes to voting for the Hall of Fame, I really don't think the voters look at the stats unless the stats really stick out (Dan Marino comes to mind.)

Ormazd · Mon Jan 19, 2009 7:59 pm

I view it as somewhat of a sliding scale.

There is a group of QBs with career stats that are deserving even without championships (Marino, Tarkenton, Fouts, Moon).
Guys with a ring or two don't need quite as large a body of work to qualify.

gaba · Tue Jan 20, 2009 1:15 pm

I think Warner's comparable to Warren Moon and (speaking of talent only) maybe better than Troy Aikman. I like Aikman, but I don't think he'd be a HOFer on a lesser team. The difference though, is that both had long careers with one team (Moon did move around in the later years of his career but spent 9 or 10 years in Houston). Warner was very good for THREE YEARS... before he was benched and then pushed out. I just don't think he's been consistently good for a long enough time to get him into the Hall of Fame. There's plenty of arguments for his induction, but there's plenty of arguments against him too.

But just for the record... even if I didn't to start with, I agree with you. I think he's deserving, I just don't know if he'll make it.