I was watching tape of both Landry and Davenport last night. I tried to watch Davenport against legit Div. I opponents. I can see why you'd like and dislike both guys.
With Landry, the word of the day is slippery. Once he gets anything on his opponent's side, it's like he's got Vaseline all over his jersey and will eventually slide by. He's a serious pass rush threat and he doesn't even have multiple moves yet. OTOH, if a run blocker gets his hands on Landry, he's done, unless he can change direction and get to the ball carrier. He's a real liability in the run game.
With Davenport, he has a bit more developed arsenal of moves, but he just doesn't seem as sneaky and productive as Landry with his pass rush, although his bull rush can do damage. And he's notably stronger and thus, not a run liability.
Both guys are good at staying with the play and not giving up. But they're not exceptional either.
I came away favoring Davenport because I think his game translates to the NFL better. I could be wrong, but I don't think Landry will be as slithery effective against NFL OTs, although he will be against some guys. And his run ineffectiveness will be a problem. Davenport OTOH will be a more balanced player whose pass rush could improve with NFL coaching. Landry could improve as well, but his seeming lack of strength holds him back.
If I'm playing against Landry, I just keep running the ball at him and I think I'd be successful. And that's a big negative for me.
EDGE rusher talk
Moderator: wab
- Mikefive
- Hall of Famer
- Posts: 5192
- Joined: Sat Aug 20, 2016 9:33 pm
- Location: Valparaiso, IN, USA
- Has thanked: 342 times
- Been thanked: 278 times
Mikefive's theory: The only time you KNOW that a sports team player, coach or management member is being 100% honest is when they're NOT reciting "the company line".
Go back to leather helmets, NFL.
Go back to leather helmets, NFL.
In UTSA’s defense, Davenport plays the STU DE role, basically just meaning he’s a Stand Up End. It’s important to differentiate between a STU and an OLB. In a 3-4 system, the SAM/WILL positions are protected by the 5 technique Defensive End on their sides. These DE’s absorb the Tackle’s initial punch and even if the Tackle later abandons the 5tech to pass set against the OLB on the edge, they are still accounting for that 5tech initially. This splits attention and makes life for the OLB easier. Also recognize that the OLB is able to line up in a wider technique. This make attacking the back shoulder of the QB easier, and with the 5tech the OLB is less concerned about getting burned on inside gap protection against the run.Mikefive wrote:I was watching tape of both Landry and Davenport last night. I tried to watch Davenport against legit Div. I opponents. I can see why you'd like and dislike both guys.
With Landry, the word of the day is slippery. Once he gets anything on his opponent's side, it's like he's got Vaseline all over his jersey and will eventually slide by. He's a serious pass rush threat and he doesn't even have multiple moves yet. OTOH, if a run blocker gets his hands on Landry, he's done, unless he can change direction and get to the ball carrier. He's a real liability in the run game.
With Davenport, he has a bit more developed arsenal of moves, but he just doesn't seem as sneaky and productive as Landry with his pass rush, although his bull rush can do damage. And he's notably stronger and thus, not a run liability.
Both guys are good at staying with the play and not giving up. But they're not exceptional either.
I came away favoring Davenport because I think his game translates to the NFL better. I could be wrong, but I don't think Landry will be as slithery effective against NFL OTs, although he will be against some guys. And his run ineffectiveness will be a problem. Davenport OTOH will be a more balanced player whose pass rush could improve with NFL coaching. Landry could improve as well, but his seeming lack of strength holds him back.
If I'm playing against Landry, I just keep running the ball at him and I think I'd be successful. And that's a big negative for me.
So when we evaluate the STU’s role, we need to recognize that there is no 5tech. So even if the STU takes a wider technique, they are still playing a harder position due to not having that interior Defensive Lineman as extra insurance in the run game and a potential distraction in pass rushing. Instead Davenport’s position asked him to essentially account for the entirety of the outside for the left side of the defense. UTSA mostly runs a 6 man box, nixing the traditional 3rd LB for a Rover/Joker position in the Defensive Backfield. And they can do that because a player like Davenport is able to take on so much responsibility as both a pass rusher and a run stopper.
Landry lines up wide of the OT with his hand in the ground and has 1 thought in mind, get around the tackle. Davenports dline is shifted away from him, so he cannot lineup wide of the OT. He has to account for setting the edge as well as the inside gap run in a stand up stance. He can not go all out in either direction. The OT does not have to stay in at the snap of the ball to protect the inside, as there is no 5 tech there. The OT can fire back immediately, as his sole responsibility is Davenport. Understand that these 2 players had completely different responsibilities in college.
- crueltyabc
- Hall of Famer
- Posts: 5133
- Joined: Mon May 04, 2009 7:36 pm
- Location: Dallas TX
- Has thanked: 81 times
- Been thanked: 235 times
If you want to know why Smith in the top 10, think of Shaq Thompson (25th) as his comp, then make him more athletic
I see Smith being used the same as Carolina uses Shaq Thompson - SAM and big nickel in a 4-3. It keeps him clean and lets him run around in coverage. Shaq was My Guy a few years ago and he's a bit of an unsung hero at Carolina because he's in Kuechly's shadow. Smith is a better athlete (because he's an insane athlete) but isn't quite the football player as Thompson. Shaq is a better blitzer IMO and a bit better in taking on blockers, though both look small and get man handled sometimes. I think it's a difference in instincts, but if you're a coach and think you can improve on his angles and leverage against blockers, you could get a Shaq Thompson +. That's how you go from 25 to 10.
I see Smith being used the same as Carolina uses Shaq Thompson - SAM and big nickel in a 4-3. It keeps him clean and lets him run around in coverage. Shaq was My Guy a few years ago and he's a bit of an unsung hero at Carolina because he's in Kuechly's shadow. Smith is a better athlete (because he's an insane athlete) but isn't quite the football player as Thompson. Shaq is a better blitzer IMO and a bit better in taking on blockers, though both look small and get man handled sometimes. I think it's a difference in instincts, but if you're a coach and think you can improve on his angles and leverage against blockers, you could get a Shaq Thompson +. That's how you go from 25 to 10.
xyt in the discord chats
- Mikefive
- Hall of Famer
- Posts: 5192
- Joined: Sat Aug 20, 2016 9:33 pm
- Location: Valparaiso, IN, USA
- Has thanked: 342 times
- Been thanked: 278 times
Thanks for educating me. That does explain how he got bottled up quite often--too often--on pass plays.Adipost wrote:In UTSA’s defense, Davenport plays the STU DE role, basically just meaning he’s a Stand Up End. It’s important to differentiate between a STU and an OLB. In a 3-4 system, the SAM/WILL positions are protected by the 5 technique Defensive End on their sides. These DE’s absorb the Tackle’s initial punch and even if the Tackle later abandons the 5tech to pass set against the OLB on the edge, they are still accounting for that 5tech initially. This splits attention and makes life for the OLB easier. Also recognize that the OLB is able to line up in a wider technique. This make attacking the back shoulder of the QB easier, and with the 5tech the OLB is less concerned about getting burned on inside gap protection against the run.Mikefive wrote:I was watching tape of both Landry and Davenport last night. I tried to watch Davenport against legit Div. I opponents. I can see why you'd like and dislike both guys.
With Landry, the word of the day is slippery. Once he gets anything on his opponent's side, it's like he's got Vaseline all over his jersey and will eventually slide by. He's a serious pass rush threat and he doesn't even have multiple moves yet. OTOH, if a run blocker gets his hands on Landry, he's done, unless he can change direction and get to the ball carrier. He's a real liability in the run game.
With Davenport, he has a bit more developed arsenal of moves, but he just doesn't seem as sneaky and productive as Landry with his pass rush, although his bull rush can do damage. And he's notably stronger and thus, not a run liability.
Both guys are good at staying with the play and not giving up. But they're not exceptional either.
I came away favoring Davenport because I think his game translates to the NFL better. I could be wrong, but I don't think Landry will be as slithery effective against NFL OTs, although he will be against some guys. And his run ineffectiveness will be a problem. Davenport OTOH will be a more balanced player whose pass rush could improve with NFL coaching. Landry could improve as well, but his seeming lack of strength holds him back.
If I'm playing against Landry, I just keep running the ball at him and I think I'd be successful. And that's a big negative for me.
So when we evaluate the STU’s role, we need to recognize that there is no 5tech. So even if the STU takes a wider technique, they are still playing a harder position due to not having that interior Defensive Lineman as extra insurance in the run game and a potential distraction in pass rushing. Instead Davenport’s position asked him to essentially account for the entirety of the outside for the left side of the defense. UTSA mostly runs a 6 man box, nixing the traditional 3rd LB for a Rover/Joker position in the Defensive Backfield. And they can do that because a player like Davenport is able to take on so much responsibility as both a pass rusher and a run stopper.
Landry lines up wide of the OT with his hand in the ground and has 1 thought in mind, get around the tackle. Davenports dline is shifted away from him, so he cannot lineup wide of the OT. He has to account for setting the edge as well as the inside gap run in a stand up stance. He can not go all out in either direction. The OT does not have to stay in at the snap of the ball to protect the inside, as there is no 5 tech there. The OT can fire back immediately, as his sole responsibility is Davenport. Understand that these 2 players had completely different responsibilities in college.
One other thing that I noticed was like once I saw Davenport drop into coverage and he didn't look awkward or slow at it. His playing (not always but a lot) out of a 2 point stance really shows that he is ready to be a 3-4 OLB, even if he needs refining.
Mikefive's theory: The only time you KNOW that a sports team player, coach or management member is being 100% honest is when they're NOT reciting "the company line".
Go back to leather helmets, NFL.
Go back to leather helmets, NFL.
- G08
- Hall of Famer
- Posts: 20623
- Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2008 12:34 pm
- Location: Football Hell
- Has thanked: 225 times
- Been thanked: 795 times
After Bradley Chubb, who is the 2nd best EDGE rusher in this draft?
Daniel Jeremiah: Marcus Davenport (improvement from day 1 of Senior Bowl to the game was obvious, he was wrecking shop. Violent, explosive, size/length. Not there now but he will get there)
Bucky Brooks: Harold Landry (elite traits, bend and burst, snap count anticipation)
Daniel Jeremiah: Marcus Davenport (improvement from day 1 of Senior Bowl to the game was obvious, he was wrecking shop. Violent, explosive, size/length. Not there now but he will get there)
Bucky Brooks: Harold Landry (elite traits, bend and burst, snap count anticipation)
9 PLAYOFF APPEARANCES IN THE PAST 35 SEASONS
"Wallet white, phone is pink, case is clear, nails are clear, lips are pink – your girl LOVE 'em!"
"Wallet white, phone is pink, case is clear, nails are clear, lips are pink – your girl LOVE 'em!"
- G08
- Hall of Famer
- Posts: 20623
- Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2008 12:34 pm
- Location: Football Hell
- Has thanked: 225 times
- Been thanked: 795 times
Amazing read on Josh Sweat
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2770 ... -the-draft" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Anyone have any thoughts on this kid? Killed the combine!
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2770 ... -the-draft" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Anyone have any thoughts on this kid? Killed the combine!
9 PLAYOFF APPEARANCES IN THE PAST 35 SEASONS
"Wallet white, phone is pink, case is clear, nails are clear, lips are pink – your girl LOVE 'em!"
"Wallet white, phone is pink, case is clear, nails are clear, lips are pink – your girl LOVE 'em!"
- mmmc_35
- Hall of Famer
- Posts: 6116
- Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2012 12:25 am
- Has thanked: 105 times
- Been thanked: 98 times
He is an easy kid to like but the injury and thin leg thing is hard to "scout" without medical info.G08 wrote:Amazing read on Josh Sweat
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2770 ... -the-draft" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Anyone have any thoughts on this kid? Killed the combine!
- thunderspirit
- Head Coach
- Posts: 3868
- Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2016 12:51 pm
- Location: Greater Chicagoland, IL
- Has thanked: 620 times
- Been thanked: 619 times
Yeah, more than most, medical is key on Sweat.
KFFL refugee.
dplank wrote:I agree with Rich here
RichH55 wrote: Dplank is correct
- crueltyabc
- Hall of Famer
- Posts: 5133
- Joined: Mon May 04, 2009 7:36 pm
- Location: Dallas TX
- Has thanked: 81 times
- Been thanked: 235 times
The best thing about the Josh Sweat cutups I've seen is the occasional appearances by Derwin James. He really does take a full beat after the snap of the ball to... diagnose? His best move is a bull rush, I think. He breaks it out after a couple of outside moves and it can be effective at unbalancing his blocker. I can't imagine that'll work in the NFL. He doesn't bend well and his hand fighting more resembles a DT than an EDGE guy. He just wrestles with his blocker and occasionally wins because he's a great athlete but again... I can't imagine him doing this consistently in the NFL. Overall I think he's my least favorite of any of the prospects we're discussing at 8.
xyt in the discord chats
- Mikefive
- Hall of Famer
- Posts: 5192
- Joined: Sat Aug 20, 2016 9:33 pm
- Location: Valparaiso, IN, USA
- Has thanked: 342 times
- Been thanked: 278 times
My $$$ is on Davenport.G08 wrote:After Bradley Chubb, who is the 2nd best EDGE rusher in this draft?
Daniel Jeremiah: Marcus Davenport (improvement from day 1 of Senior Bowl to the game was obvious, he was wrecking shop. Violent, explosive, size/length. Not there now but he will get there)
Bucky Brooks: Harold Landry (elite traits, bend and burst, snap count anticipation)
Mikefive's theory: The only time you KNOW that a sports team player, coach or management member is being 100% honest is when they're NOT reciting "the company line".
Go back to leather helmets, NFL.
Go back to leather helmets, NFL.
- G08
- Hall of Famer
- Posts: 20623
- Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2008 12:34 pm
- Location: Football Hell
- Has thanked: 225 times
- Been thanked: 795 times
Pending medicals, I really like Sweat and Turay. I think Turay might be a reach at #39, so it would likely be in some sort of trade down.Adipost wrote:Looks like Josh Sweat would be a good pick at #39.G08 wrote:2018 Edge Rusher Analytics via reddit
9 PLAYOFF APPEARANCES IN THE PAST 35 SEASONS
"Wallet white, phone is pink, case is clear, nails are clear, lips are pink – your girl LOVE 'em!"
"Wallet white, phone is pink, case is clear, nails are clear, lips are pink – your girl LOVE 'em!"
- thunderspirit
- Head Coach
- Posts: 3868
- Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2016 12:51 pm
- Location: Greater Chicagoland, IL
- Has thanked: 620 times
- Been thanked: 619 times
This is pretty good stuff.
KFFL refugee.
dplank wrote:I agree with Rich here
RichH55 wrote: Dplank is correct
- G08
- Hall of Famer
- Posts: 20623
- Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2008 12:34 pm
- Location: Football Hell
- Has thanked: 225 times
- Been thanked: 795 times
I thought you'd like it!thunderspirit wrote:This is pretty good stuff.
9 PLAYOFF APPEARANCES IN THE PAST 35 SEASONS
"Wallet white, phone is pink, case is clear, nails are clear, lips are pink – your girl LOVE 'em!"
"Wallet white, phone is pink, case is clear, nails are clear, lips are pink – your girl LOVE 'em!"
- Hiphopopotamos
- Head Coach
- Posts: 3535
- Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2008 6:56 pm
Adipost wrote:Matt Miller edge rusher rankings
Marcus Davenport comp:
PRO PLAYER COMPARISON: Leonard Floyd, Chicago Bears
Holy Shit - We got Justin Fields!
In my former life I was known as FencikFanatic.
Oh, and if you were wondering - yes I'm real. And I'm fantastic.
In my former life I was known as FencikFanatic.
Oh, and if you were wondering - yes I'm real. And I'm fantastic.
- G08
- Hall of Famer
- Posts: 20623
- Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2008 12:34 pm
- Location: Football Hell
- Has thanked: 225 times
- Been thanked: 795 times
That's a terrible, terrible comp.Hiphopopotamos wrote:Adipost wrote:Matt Miller edge rusher rankings
Marcus Davenport comp:
PRO PLAYER COMPARISON: Leonard Floyd, Chicago Bears
9 PLAYOFF APPEARANCES IN THE PAST 35 SEASONS
"Wallet white, phone is pink, case is clear, nails are clear, lips are pink – your girl LOVE 'em!"
"Wallet white, phone is pink, case is clear, nails are clear, lips are pink – your girl LOVE 'em!"
- thunderspirit
- Head Coach
- Posts: 3868
- Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2016 12:51 pm
- Location: Greater Chicagoland, IL
- Has thanked: 620 times
- Been thanked: 619 times
It's...it's pretty bad, yeah.G08 wrote:That's a terrible, terrible comp.Hiphopopotamos wrote:Adipost wrote:Matt Miller edge rusher rankings
Marcus Davenport comp:
PRO PLAYER COMPARISON: Leonard Floyd, Chicago Bears
And I like Matt Miller, but I don't know what he's seeing there.
KFFL refugee.
dplank wrote:I agree with Rich here
RichH55 wrote: Dplank is correct
- thunderspirit
- Head Coach
- Posts: 3868
- Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2016 12:51 pm
- Location: Greater Chicagoland, IL
- Has thanked: 620 times
- Been thanked: 619 times
I don't get his comparison of Bradley Chubb to Terrell Suggs, either. Chubb is a lot more Everson Griffin.
KFFL refugee.
dplank wrote:I agree with Rich here
RichH55 wrote: Dplank is correct
- Mikefive
- Hall of Famer
- Posts: 5192
- Joined: Sat Aug 20, 2016 9:33 pm
- Location: Valparaiso, IN, USA
- Has thanked: 342 times
- Been thanked: 278 times
He said what???G08 wrote:That's a terrible, terrible comp.Hiphopopotamos wrote:Adipost wrote:Matt Miller edge rusher rankings
Marcus Davenport comp:
PRO PLAYER COMPARISON: Leonard Floyd, Chicago Bears
Mikefive's theory: The only time you KNOW that a sports team player, coach or management member is being 100% honest is when they're NOT reciting "the company line".
Go back to leather helmets, NFL.
Go back to leather helmets, NFL.
- mmmc_35
- Hall of Famer
- Posts: 6116
- Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2012 12:25 am
- Has thanked: 105 times
- Been thanked: 98 times
Davenport comp in my opinion is Ziggy Ansah. Both are similar height length and raw coming out. Aside from the physical, they both have naturally strong hands, and impressive bull rush, need to refine technique, and get by on ability over skill.
Davenport. Ansah
H. -' 77" --- 77"
W. -- 264lbs. ---- 271lbs
A. -- 33.625" ---- 34.5"
H. -- 9.125" ---- 10.25"
10Y. ---1.62 ---- 1.63
40Y. -- 4.58 ---- 4.63
BP. --- 22 ----- 21
VJ. --- 33.5 34.5"
BJ. ---124. --- 118"
3C. ---7.2 ---- 7.11
20YS --- 4.41. ---- 4.26
Davenport. Ansah
H. -' 77" --- 77"
W. -- 264lbs. ---- 271lbs
A. -- 33.625" ---- 34.5"
H. -- 9.125" ---- 10.25"
10Y. ---1.62 ---- 1.63
40Y. -- 4.58 ---- 4.63
BP. --- 22 ----- 21
VJ. --- 33.5 34.5"
BJ. ---124. --- 118"
3C. ---7.2 ---- 7.11
20YS --- 4.41. ---- 4.26
- G08
- Hall of Famer
- Posts: 20623
- Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2008 12:34 pm
- Location: Football Hell
- Has thanked: 225 times
- Been thanked: 795 times
Yup, and you can throw in Jadeveon Clowney:mmmc_35 wrote:Davenport comp in my opinion is Ziggy Ansah. Both are similar height length and raw coming out. Aside from the physical, they both have naturally strong hands, and impressive bull rush, need to refine technique, and get by on ability over skill.
Davenport. Ansah
H. -' 77" --- 77"
W. -- 264lbs. ---- 271lbs
A. -- 33.625" ---- 34.5"
H. -- 9.125" ---- 10.25"
10Y. ---1.62 ---- 1.63
40Y. -- 4.58 ---- 4.63
BP. --- 22 ----- 21
VJ. --- 33.5 34.5"
BJ. ---124. --- 118"
3C. ---7.2 ---- 7.11
20YS --- 4.41. ---- 4.26
6052/266 lbs/34.5" arms/10" hands
1.59/2.68/4.53
21 reps
37.5" vert
10'04" broad
4.43 shuttle
7.27 cone
Marcus Davenport:
6056/264 lbs/33.625" arms/9.125" hands
1.62/2.67/4.58
22 reps
33.5" vert
10'04" broad
4.41 shuttle
7.20 cone
9 PLAYOFF APPEARANCES IN THE PAST 35 SEASONS
"Wallet white, phone is pink, case is clear, nails are clear, lips are pink – your girl LOVE 'em!"
"Wallet white, phone is pink, case is clear, nails are clear, lips are pink – your girl LOVE 'em!"