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Don't know if anyone heard this, but I was listening to Holmes talk about the 2017 draft and the way he put it was... let's say... rather pointed. Here's his position, or at least part of it--which I never really quite thought about precisely this way. And we've never heard the answer to this question, but its a pretty good one.

Clearly, Mitch Trubisky was Ryan Pace's guy. It also seems clear that despite signing Glennon, Pace was shopping for a QB with that #3 pick. For whatever reason, we all saw Pace trade 2 R3's and a R4 to move up one spot to take Biscuit 2nd overall. If you had stood pat at 3 and kept the extra picks, you had Trubisky or DeShaun Watson in hand. So the worst case scenario was that you missed out on Trubisky and got Watson instead.

The unanswered question is... Why was Trubisky worth 2 R3's and a R4 more than Deshaun Watson?

Interesting valuation question if you want to revisit the 2017 Biscuit pick.

I don’t really want to revisit it.

the short answer: Dowell Loggains.

wab wrote:I don’t really want to revisit it.

Indeed. I'm sick of revisiting it.

Atkins&Rebel wrote:the short answer: Dowell Loggains.

it's super rude to call people short.

Oh for fucks sake. Watson was the third QB taken and 10 spots after Trubisky.

Trubisky was worth every fucking pick in the draft if the Bears were convinced he was the only franchise QB in 2017.

And Laurence Holmes is a fucking moron.

I think this was in conjunction with a article about the Trubsky trade, that apparently makes Pace look foolish. I can't find the article, I have heard about on the score.

Don't really get it. It's done, been done.....

But in the end they wanted their guy. They went out and got THEIR GUY! I respect that move more than sitting on their hands and missing out. From what I have seen from Trubs is that it was worth it, rather than the chance of missing out on him. This team needed a real QB and face of the franchise. They got it.

Now this talk about Watson. Who Cares? hindsight is 20/20.


Personally Trubisky was the guy I wanted. So I have a little bias here. But I am comfortable with not taking any chances of loosing out if they had any feeling of someone moving past them to get him.

wab wrote:I don’t really want to revisit it.

Agreed. I was a big Deshaun Watson guy but I’m not the GM. Pace did what he needed to do to get HIS guy. Time will tell if he was right. Move on.

I agree it's over. They got their guy.

The question is more do you trust Pace? It's a larger question and not easily answered. To honest it's been discussed in several threads, and kind of beaten to death.

wab wrote:I don’t really want to revisit it.

That's a totally fair answer. And I'll admit, its a weird thread to start 2 days before the next draft.

He just put that thing in a way I hadn't quite thought of. And for those (like me) who said that he went up and got his guy and I like that, I think it's fair to ask the question though. Just another case of the opportunity cost thing.

And let's face it.... This place has been pretty dead for a few days.

mmmc_35 wrote:I agree it's over. They got their guy.

The question is more do you trust Pace? It's a larger question and not easily answered. To honest it's been discussed in several threads, and kind of beaten to death.

Not really. I trust him loosely to make the best decisions in the best interests of the team, but I don't automatically sign off on every move he makes. He's not been a bad GM at all, but at some point soon this team needs to start winning or else he'll be on his ass.

IotaNet wrote:

wab wrote:I don’t really want to revisit it.

Agreed. I was a big Deshaun Watson guy but I’m not the GM. Pace did what he needed to do to get HIS guy. Time will tell if he was right. Move on.

+1.

I doubt Laurence Holmes has any more insight into what goes on in Halas Hall than we do, and his way too long after the fact take on the Trubisky draft action was more due to a deadline to submit something rather than any attempt to be informative or useful

so here ya go Laurence

mmmc_35 wrote:The question is more do you trust Pace?

Also a fair question. For me, the honeymoon period is over. It's time to put up. I think he's done some good things, for sure. And some not so good. He seems a bit Jerry Angelo-like in that we haven't seen his R1 picks--and quite high ones at that #7, #9 and #2--be difference makers on a team that desperately needs them. That said, I like what I've seen out of Trubisky quite a lot and you can see the elite flashes with Floyd. Obviously, a huge key for Pace is Nagy. That guy better be all that or Pace is sunk.

I actually respect Holmes quite a great deal. He's been in the business long enough and has enough proximity to the team and players to know a thing or two.

That said, I don't feel like this line of thought is really...relevant, I guess. At least not right now.

It's not helpful and it's also overreacting

I'll re-litigate: We got two starters and a contributor so it was a good draft. It's a shame that it cost us a third rounder this year but we have two fourth rounders. It'll be ok.

criticism of pace should focus on his inability to find FAs who can make lasting contributions despite the cap space he's had to work with but we can revisit that next offseason or hopefully we don't have to because the new FA group looks good

crueltyabc wrote:It's not helpful and it's also overreacting

I'll re-litigate: We got two starters and a contributor so it was a good draft. It's a shame that it cost us a third rounder this year but we have two fourth rounders. It'll be ok.

criticism of pace should focus on his inability to find FAs who can make lasting contributions despite the cap space he's had to work with but we can revisit that next offseason or hopefully we don't have to because the new FA group looks good

All of this requires future context that we simply don't have yet, indeed.

I like Lawrence Holmes and think the world of him as a host.
I just think he's off-base on this one.

If Pace hadn't traded at all, but still drafted Trubisky, Shaheen, Jackson, Cohen, Morgan, and a couple of busts... what would people say about that draft? That's a good draft right? WTF everyone? Do we have hundreds of think pieces written about the loss of a 3rd round pick?

crueltyabc wrote:If Pace hadn't traded at all, but still drafted Trubisky, Shaheen, Jackson, Cohen, Morgan, and a couple of busts... what would people say about that draft? That's a good draft right?

yes

crueltyabc wrote:WTF everyone? Do we have hundreds of think pieces written about the loss of a 3rd round pick?

not only do we have hundreds of think pieces about the loss of a 3rd round pick, but we have people a full year after the fact writing new think pieces to bitch about it ... which makes me realize the word "think" in reference to all of this is not relevant to what we are seeing

I look at Pace's FA moves prior to this year as a guy who is building a house and rents an apartment by the month in the meantime. Dude just lives out of suitcases and boxes. It's not really a place where he's settled.

That's what his FA's have been because I don't think he saw Fox as his coach for more than the length of the rebuild, so he's been getting by on the free agency equivalent of month to month rent.

Now that Pace has a coach and a QB...and for the most part a roster...that aligns with his philosophy, he can start putting his clothes away.

I like the analogy. He better start hanging up some pictures and cleaning the rat shit out of the closets.

crueltyabc wrote: ... WTF everyone? Do we have hundreds of think pieces written about the loss of a 3rd round pick?

Actually, the problem is that "Draft Season" is too long and there's little else to talk about. If the Bulls were relevant, the writers would have something else to write about besides a draft that is taking entirely too long to get here.

Think about it -- we (the BFO community) are die-hard bears fans and even WE have been getting bored over the last couple of weeks.

IotaNet wrote:

crueltyabc wrote: ... WTF everyone? Do we have hundreds of think pieces written about the loss of a 3rd round pick?

Actually, the problem is that "Draft Season" is too long and there's little else to talk about. If the Bulls were relevant, the writers would have something else to write about besides a draft that is taking entirely too long to get here.

Think about it -- we (the BFO community) are die-hard bears fans and even WE have been getting bored over the last couple of weeks.

You're SO right about that.

wab wrote:I look at Pace's FA moves prior to this year as a guy who is building a house and rents an apartment by the month in the meantime. Dude just lives out of suitcases and boxes. It's not really a place where he's settled.

That's what his FA's have been because I don't think he saw Fox as his coach for more than the length of the rebuild, so he's been getting by on the free agency equivalent of month to month rent.

Now that Pace has a coach and a QB...and for the most part a roster...that aligns with his philosophy, he can start putting his clothes away.

Love this analogy. I've been saying something along these lines...Now that he has his coach and QB, we're already seeing a diferent approach in free agency with the long term deals.

I think Trubisky was the only QB on the board for the Bears and if they didn’t get him they were not going to draft any other QB in that draft.

Boris13c wrote:

crueltyabc wrote:If Pace hadn't traded at all, but still drafted Trubisky, Shaheen, Jackson, Cohen, Morgan, and a couple of busts... what would people say about that draft? That's a good draft right?

yes

crueltyabc wrote:WTF everyone? Do we have hundreds of think pieces written about the loss of a 3rd round pick?

not only do we have hundreds of think pieces about the loss of a 3rd round pick, but we have people a full year after the fact writing new think pieces to bitch about it ... which makes me realize the word "think" in reference to all of this is not relevant to what we are seeing

It's not so much the loss of a 2 3rds and a 4th they're writing about. It's moving up only 1 slot, most likely needlessly, for those picks. That is a very uncommon scenario, and journalists know it. It's never a GM's job to panic, and when fortune is smiling at you, you have to be disciplined and ready enough to accept it. My opinion...it wasn't an impressive move for a GM, but then, identifying Mitchell's potential was (it seems, so far), and of course Pace will be judged by the net result of all his choices, weighted by importance.

The point posed by the journalist in the OP's post is legit, though what it really says about Pace is limited. What I mean by that is that you could also apply the same rationale nearly 20 years ago to every trade up in the first 5 rounds when Tom Brady was still available. The answer in every case would be, no, it wasn't worth it.

Laurence Holmes wanted Watson. That's why he's being such a bitch over the trade up.

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The bottom line though is Ryan pace fooled both the 49ers and the teams trying to trade up with the 49ers to grab trubisky. By all accounts day of the draft, Kansas City was trying to trade up as well as Cleveland.

The people who say no one was trying to trade up are lying their asses off. Speaking of media here.

What ended up happening because the Bears and a very young general manager Hoodwinked a whole bunch of more veteran general managers, the immediately began the spin 2 the friends they have in the media.

And yes, some gms do have friends in the media who they leak things to. And the media are more than happy to push out articles so that way they can continue to get easy access and make their own jobs easier. It's not even true journalism but just the type of shady bullshit that happens.

So those GM's leaked to their media friends a bullshit story of what an idiot Ryan paces and because some of the media put that out there, it caught fire as the rest of the lazy media regurgitated it.

Meanwhile, the reason to leak the bullshit in the first place is they didn't want to have to answer to their owners the question of why a very young general manager just played them for idiots.

The key to knowing the truth of all of this is when one of the media got war room access to Lynch's first draft with the 49ers, they have him on record as saying he thought the Bears were trading up to get a linebacker. He had to be told that a trade up like that was likely for a quarterback. That rare nugget of Truth before the media spin began tells you the truth of what you needed to know. Combine that with the fact that Ryan Pace was actively negotiating with the Cleveland Browns at the same time to prevent them from trading up with the 49ers to grab a quarterback, and you have the total picture right there, before the media spin began to do damage on Ryan Pace in order to save their own skins.

What didn't help with this is that Ryan Pace got the Bears job over Chris Ballard who at least up until this draft has been a disaster for the Colts but has a Litany of friends in the media who are all but eager to cover for his ass. So is Ryan Pace picked up Matt Nagy as head coach and schooled him, they picked up on that old draft thread and tugged at it some more to cover for Chris Ballard.

The final nugget with regards to the shitball media is that when Jerry Angelo and Phil Emery War general managers with the Bears, there were people on staff who Phil Emery retained in the front offices who were informants for people like Mike Mulligan, Brad Biggs, and a lot of the older Bears beat reporters former beat reporters and media. Those people got easy stories and easy inside information. If you go back to the tenure of those general managers in wonder how teens were able to so easily jump in front of the Bears and grab a player who we all thought the Bears wanted, and how the beers would routinely get screwed out of those players, Leakey Halas Hall was a major reason.

That was free money for the media and they didn't give a shit that they were causing damage to the team because their lives is so-called journalists were made easier.

Ryan Pace comes along and cleans house. The Leaky people are gone. Ryan Pace runs the front office like the Patriots do. No information gets out.

So you have a bunch of Legacy fat cat former beat reporters who are bitching and moaning and hate Ryan pace for the Civil pedi reason that now they have to work for a living again rather than get fed easy stories.

If you look at the journalists in this town, it's no wonder why younger reporters on the beat like Adam Jahns hold a far more favorable opinion of Ryan pace than some of the Legacy morons like Brad Biggs, Mike Pompeii, and Mike Mulligan on the score.

Those old has beens have had their free ride cancelled. And they're bitter and crusty about it.

Now look at everything I just said in total. Now you know why teams are reluctant to trust the sports media. As fun as it is for us to talk sports and read about them, the business aspect of it is slimy, greasy, disgusting, and self-serving, and as far from real journalism as you could possibly get for many of the people in there doing whatever they have to in order to get a scoop. And they are more than willing to slander and burn anybody for a few extra clicks or a few extra headlines on the front of the newspaper...

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