Rd5, P173: WR Darnell Mooney, Tulane

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Re: Rd5, P173: WR Darnell Mooney, Tulane

Mon Apr 27, 2020 8:07 am

It fit's a niche we have a void with in the ultra-speed guy, and if Foles ends up starter...well he loves those deep bombs. He is small, but we'll have to see how he gets used.
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Re: Rd5, P173: WR Darnell Mooney, Tulane

Mon Apr 27, 2020 9:06 am

TheWorldBreaker wrote:
Sat Apr 25, 2020 10:58 pm
A speedy WR than can take the top of a defense was a need too.

You having never heard of someone has no bearing on where a guy was projected. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that the traded a few spots ahead of the Packers. Also, all teams are trying to get faster at WR because of the Chiefs success.
So the Chiefs having speedy receivers is the reason they have success???

One of the oldest truths about football on any level is that if you don’t have an OLine...then you don’t have an offense. While Trubisky certainly had his problems last season, they pale in comparison to how bad the OLine played. That’s why Harry Hiestand was given a pink slip....and I have little faith that a new coach will make bad players good.

I’m sure Mooney is fast, that’s nice...but if you can’t run the football, or block in general, then I don’t care how fast your receivers are. The problems I saw early and often last season were on the OL. We can blame the double doink for why we lost to the Eagles in the playoffs the previous season....I blame the fact that we couldn’t run the ball nor did Trubisky have the time to set his feet and step into his throws.

Remember how many playoff appearances the Raiders had with all the fast guys they drafted or free agent signings during the end of the Al Davis days? Me neither. It’s because they had no OL.

What I keep seeing Ryan Pace do is trying to fix problems that don’t exist....and constantly trading away good draft picks in the process. Next year’s 4th rounder could have been used on a good player, that’s now gone for a player who might not even play. So many teams keep falling into this trap and then wonder why they never win. It’s not hard to figure out. Fix the OL and you fix your offense.

....but since you mentioned the Chiefs, they also have Patrick Mahomes. Watch film of what he’s able to do when things break down. No other QB in the league can do what he does...and they were winning just as much when Tyreek Hill wasn’t on the field.

I’m sure Mooney will out run plenty of DB’s during his time but I’d rather have someone who can open holes for Montgomery. It was nice to see two big uglies drafted in the 7th round....but much better players were available in earlier rounds.

Fix the OL or we will keep losing to the Packers.
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Re: Rd5, P173: WR Darnell Mooney, Tulane

Tue Apr 28, 2020 12:11 am

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Re: Rd5, P173: WR Darnell Mooney, Tulane

Tue Apr 28, 2020 8:28 am

So they got Foles his DJax. That's cool.
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Re: Rd5, P173: WR Darnell Mooney, Tulane

Tue Apr 28, 2020 8:31 am

makaur wrote:
Mon Apr 27, 2020 9:06 am
TheWorldBreaker wrote:
Sat Apr 25, 2020 10:58 pm
A speedy WR than can take the top of a defense was a need too.

You having never heard of someone has no bearing on where a guy was projected. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that the traded a few spots ahead of the Packers. Also, all teams are trying to get faster at WR because of the Chiefs success.
So the Chiefs having speedy receivers is the reason they have success???

One of the oldest truths about football on any level is that if you don’t have an OLine...then you don’t have an offense. While Trubisky certainly had his problems last season, they pale in comparison to how bad the OLine played. That’s why Harry Hiestand was given a pink slip....and I have little faith that a new coach will make bad players good.

I’m sure Mooney is fast, that’s nice...but if you can’t run the football, or block in general, then I don’t care how fast your receivers are. The problems I saw early and often last season were on the OL. We can blame the double doink for why we lost to the Eagles in the playoffs the previous season....I blame the fact that we couldn’t run the ball nor did Trubisky have the time to set his feet and step into his throws.

Remember how many playoff appearances the Raiders had with all the fast guys they drafted or free agent signings during the end of the Al Davis days? Me neither. It’s because they had no OL.

What I keep seeing Ryan Pace do is trying to fix problems that don’t exist....and constantly trading away good draft picks in the process. Next year’s 4th rounder could have been used on a good player, that’s now gone for a player who might not even play. So many teams keep falling into this trap and then wonder why they never win. It’s not hard to figure out. Fix the OL and you fix your offense.

....but since you mentioned the Chiefs, they also have Patrick Mahomes. Watch film of what he’s able to do when things break down. No other QB in the league can do what he does...and they were winning just as much when Tyreek Hill wasn’t on the field.

I’m sure Mooney will out run plenty of DB’s during his time but I’d rather have someone who can open holes for Montgomery. It was nice to see two big uglies drafted in the 7th round....but much better players were available in earlier rounds.

Fix the OL or we will keep losing to the Packers.
Great post, totally agree. The Bears simply don't invest in our OL at the level required to be successful. Just watch how the 49ers beat the crap out of the Packers twice last year, it was their OL that dominated in both games. You can plug in relatively average talent at WR and RB behind a great OL and suddenly they look like all pro's! But it doesn't work the other way, you can have great talent at WR and RB behind a crappy OL and they look like garbage. It's all about the OL IMO, I think it's more important than QB. So when people argue that Trent Williams at 12.5M is too expensive, I just shake my head...naturally, the 49ers realize this, and they were the smart ones who nabbed him. He's 31, playing T, he has 4-5 years easy of high level play in him, age isn't a factor (@Bill...lol).

I like both of our picks, but I'm not really happy overall because we did not address our OL this offseason at all. Adding Ifedi and losing Long, and changing coaches, is not going to fix this. We have a talent problem. At least Kmet should add some blocking on the perimeter up front, sorely needed.
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Re: Rd5, P173: WR Darnell Mooney, Tulane

Tue Apr 28, 2020 10:15 am

I agree with you guys. It is just that Pace is kinda stuck right now with his decisions from a couple of years ago when it looked pretty smart to lock in the OTs for a decent price, establish continuity and be able to do things like pay Mack and Eddie and Kyle etc. He just didn't anticipate the perfect storm of bad.

Picking up Williams for that price makes total sense, if you have your expensive guy retiring. Doing it and they paying Leno to sit just wasn't feasible. So Pace is making the moves to do what he can to attempt to improve things. This is definitely a big test year for the Oline. I don't think it is fair to say Pace doesn't understand the importance of the Oline. He made moves to try to address that - and it didn't work out. Exactly like his moves at QB 3 years ago. In both cases he's trying to do his best to correct things within the constraints he created for himself.

His ability to fix these two areas this year even within his constraints are as important to him as they are to us.
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Re: Rd5, P173: WR Darnell Mooney, Tulane

Tue Apr 28, 2020 11:30 am

IE wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 10:15 am
I agree with you guys. It is just that Pace is kinda stuck right now with his decisions from a couple of years ago when it looked pretty smart to lock in the OTs for a decent price, establish continuity and be able to do things like pay Mack and Eddie and Kyle etc. He just didn't anticipate the perfect storm of bad.

Picking up Williams for that price makes total sense, if you have your expensive guy retiring. Doing it and they paying Leno to sit just wasn't feasible. So Pace is making the moves to do what he can to attempt to improve things. This is definitely a big test year for the Oline. I don't think it is fair to say Pace doesn't understand the importance of the Oline. He made moves to try to address that - and it didn't work out. Exactly like his moves at QB 3 years ago. In both cases he's trying to do his best to correct things within the constraints he created for himself.

His ability to fix these two areas this year even within his constraints are as important to him as they are to us.
Pretty fair minded analysis.
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Re: Rd5, P173: WR Darnell Mooney, Tulane

Tue Apr 28, 2020 1:18 pm

Had Pace traded Leno for Williams (even player swap) and then had the draft he had, I wouldn't be complaining one bit. Instead, the effing 49ers got him and if it's possible, they might be indestructible on offense now....and before disagreeing with that, I will remind you that they just got to the Super Bowl with an undrafted RB as their primary back (who the Packers could not stop to save their lives).

I just remember the draft 2 years ago. When Pace made the draft day move to pick up Anthony Miller, folks were practically creaming themselves about how great of a receiver he is. Well, it's been two years and I'm not impressed....but I do wonder what his stats would look like with a rushing attack that can't be stopped (it helps with play action) and then the QB having time to throw.

Again, I like Mooney as a receiver. Not sure we needed him though because there will be a Mooney in every draft. I'd rather fix the OLine and then worry about drafting the Mooney type players later.

Heck, I'm more excited about the LSU kid we signed as a free agent (Badara Traore). I don't know if he will make the team, but at 6'7" and 320 lbs....and coming from the team that won the college national title...there's at least something to work with.
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Re: Rd5, P173: WR Darnell Mooney, Tulane

Tue Apr 28, 2020 1:58 pm

VA_Mountain_Bear wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 11:30 am
IE wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 10:15 am
I agree with you guys. It is just that Pace is kinda stuck right now with his decisions from a couple of years ago when it looked pretty smart to lock in the OTs for a decent price, establish continuity and be able to do things like pay Mack and Eddie and Kyle etc. He just didn't anticipate the perfect storm of bad.

Picking up Williams for that price makes total sense, if you have your expensive guy retiring. Doing it and they paying Leno to sit just wasn't feasible. So Pace is making the moves to do what he can to attempt to improve things. This is definitely a big test year for the Oline. I don't think it is fair to say Pace doesn't understand the importance of the Oline. He made moves to try to address that - and it didn't work out. Exactly like his moves at QB 3 years ago. In both cases he's trying to do his best to correct things within the constraints he created for himself.

His ability to fix these two areas this year even within his constraints are as important to him as they are to us.
Pretty fair minded analysis.
It is, but I still take issue with the "paying Leno to sit isn't feasible" part. Leno is the 18th paid LT in the league and Massie is the 11th paid RT. Daniels is the 32nd paid LG, Ifedi will be the 33rd paid RG, and Whitehair is the 9th paid Center. We are NOT investing here. Yea, it would suck to have Leno paid to be a swing tackle, but we're stuck with it. And at 12.5M, Williams is a relative steal for what he brings to the table as a lock down LT. So considering we're scraping bottom barrel in spending at the G position, we could absolutely afford an overpriced swing tackle in Leno for one friggin year before we can release him or massie next year.

So it's all about how Pace values positions. One could have argued with even more conviction that we couldn't afford to add a dynamic pass rusher since we have Mack on one of the biggest contracts in the league already, and we just resigned Danny T to a decent deal and Roquan is on a high 1st round deal himself. But Pace valued pass rush and signed a premium player. We now have both the 1st and 9th top paid 3/4 OLB's in the NFL. I want a GM that values OL, we haven't had one since the early 80's. Quite simply, I think Trent Williams helps this team more than Robert Quinn does.

We rank 25th in the NFL in OL spending. We don't value it, plain and simple.
Last edited by dplank on Tue Apr 28, 2020 2:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Rd5, P173: WR Darnell Mooney, Tulane

Tue Apr 28, 2020 2:48 pm

Last edited by Mikefive on Tue Apr 28, 2020 7:17 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Rd5, P173: WR Darnell Mooney, Tulane

Tue Apr 28, 2020 3:19 pm

Makur, you act like Pace has completely ignored the offensive line. But it's simply not true. I had a similar take with Angelo as you do now. Only with Angelo, in five years (from 2003 through 2007), we only drafted four offensive linemen (a 4th, a 6th, and 2 7ths), and we didn't draft a lineman at all for two consecutive years (2004-2005).

Conversely, Pace has had six drafts and taken seven offensive linemen: two 7ths, a 6th, a 5th, a 3rd, and two seconds(both currently starting). Only one year did he not take any offensive linemen, and that was last year and they only had five picks all of them third round or lower.

Before you go clamoring that we need to get offensive linemen at all costs, remember what happened with Angelo after that dry spell of OL. We started clamoring we needed OL, we needed OL. And more specifically, we needed a LT? We then got Chrissie Williams in the first with Branden Albert still on the board. GOD! I hated that pussy pick. Then three years after that we convinced ourselves to take Gabe Carimi. What a stellar pick that was! And it's not like those are the first times we've reached for offensive linemen. Remember Stan Thomas? Those were three of the worst first round picks we've ever had. Not the worst, but certainly up there.

I hear what you're saying, and there were a lot a offensive linemen I wanted in this draft, but after we didn't get a trade down in the second, all but two fell by the wayside. Of those two, one is a tremendously injury risk (Muti) and the other is a traditional power guard (Onwenu) who doesn't really fit our system. So Pace took two very athletic yet mean as a junkyard dog types that better fit our system. And then he brought in a similar lineman as a UDFA who might be better, and meaner, than either.

I hear what you're saying, but you don't sacrifice picks just to take a position, even if it is the offensive line. When you do that, you end up with the likes of Gabe Carimi, Chrissie Williams, and Stan Thomas. You have to follow your draft board, and the positions that Pace hit in the fifth were all positions of need for us as it was. And before we condemn him for his offensive line acquisitions that he did make, let's see how they do first. Don't know if you know who they are, but I know I didn't know them when he drafted them, but I really like what I see on tape from all three. They look better than the guys that I knew of who were left that's for sure.

Let's just wait and see. I'm excited with how Pace has addressed the OL this offseason. Incidentally, I think we improved much more than the Niners did this offseason.
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Re: Rd5, P173: WR Darnell Mooney, Tulane

Tue Apr 28, 2020 4:20 pm

I'm excited with how Pace has addressed the OL this offseason.
Please explain. AFAIK we lost Long and Lucas, and we added two cast offs/cuts in Ifedi and Spriggs. Then we drafted two 7th round projects that likely don't make the team. How does this excite you?
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Re: Rd5, P173: WR Darnell Mooney, Tulane

Tue Apr 28, 2020 4:49 pm

Yogi-

You're comparing apples to oranges so I'm going to stop you right there. Pace is not Angelo...and the lineman we were all "clamoring" for are not around anymore. I'm talking about where we are currently.

Read the part above where I said that had Pace traded Leno for Trent Williams in a player for player swap (no draft picks) and then had the exact same draft (including the Ifedi signing in FA), then I'd stop complaining. Would this magically make our offense top ten? No, but it would be an improvement. It also sends a message that the team is not going to put up with any sh*t or your @ss will get shipped elsewhere or cut.

When the season ended, the first thing that needed to happen was to cut that worthless pile of garbage Kyle Long. Obviously he read my mind and decided to do that on his own, which I am thankful for. Geez, when the Bears were out here last fall to play the Redskins, I swear I could smell Long's vagina from the stands. I knew it was only a matter of time before he wussed out and faked another injury to get paid for doing nothing for an entire season.

There is no worse of a message you can send your team than to be cool with the status quo. You have to be a mental midget to have watched our offensive line last year and think everything will be fine if we just get a new OL coach. That mentality has gotten us to where we are, which is a laughingstock on offense. I'm sick and tired of watching an undrafted RB run all over the Packers in both the regular season and the NFC Championship game.....but when we play them, we can barely rush for a first down. THE PACKERS ARE NOT THAT F*CKING GOOD!!!

The problem is our offensive line. Who cares that Pace drafted more offensive lineman than Angelo? If anything, that should tell you how much worse he is at evaluating talent. You can't wait until the later rounds to fix your problems at a position. You have to do that early and often, which is why I'm pissed that Pace keeps trading early draft picks for players who may never do anything....due to the result of him constantly ignoring the glaring weakness of our offense, which is the OLine.
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Re: Rd5, P173: WR Darnell Mooney, Tulane

Tue Apr 28, 2020 6:14 pm

makaur wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 4:49 pm
Yogi - You're comparing apples to oranges so I'm going to stop you right there. Pace is not Angelo.
No he wasn't. They're both lemons.
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Re: Rd5, P173: WR Darnell Mooney, Tulane

Tue Apr 28, 2020 6:51 pm

Middleguard wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 6:14 pm
makaur wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 4:49 pm
Yogi - You're comparing apples to oranges so I'm going to stop you right there. Pace is not Angelo.
No he wasn't. They're both lemons.
True...but one got us to a Super Bowl with 3 division titles (he gets credit only for 2005, 2006, and 2010 but not for 2001).

The other one is still pending but based on what I've seen, I'm pretty sure things will stop at 1 division title and zero playoff wins.
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Re: Rd5, P173: WR Darnell Mooney, Tulane

Tue Apr 28, 2020 7:53 pm

makaur wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 4:49 pm
Yogi-

You're comparing apples to oranges so I'm going to stop you right there. Pace is not Angelo...and the lineman we were all "clamoring" for are not around anymore. I'm talking about where we are currently.

Read the part above where I said that had Pace traded Leno for Trent Williams in a player for player swap (no draft picks) and then had the exact same draft (including the Ifedi signing in FA), then I'd stop complaining. Would this magically make our offense top ten? No, but it would be an improvement. It also sends a message that the team is not going to put up with any sh*t or your @ss will get shipped elsewhere or cut.

When the season ended, the first thing that needed to happen was to cut that worthless pile of garbage Kyle Long. Obviously he read my mind and decided to do that on his own, which I am thankful for. Geez, when the Bears were out here last fall to play the Redskins, I swear I could smell Long's vagina from the stands. I knew it was only a matter of time before he wussed out and faked another injury to get paid for doing nothing for an entire season.

There is no worse of a message you can send your team than to be cool with the status quo. You have to be a mental midget to have watched our offensive line last year and think everything will be fine if we just get a new OL coach. That mentality has gotten us to where we are, which is a laughingstock on offense. I'm sick and tired of watching an undrafted RB run all over the Packers in both the regular season and the NFC Championship game.....but when we play them, we can barely rush for a first down. THE PACKERS ARE NOT THAT F*CKING GOOD!!!

The problem is our offensive line. Who cares that Pace drafted more offensive lineman than Angelo? If anything, that should tell you how much worse he is at evaluating talent. You can't wait until the later rounds to fix your problems at a position. You have to do that early and often, which is why I'm pissed that Pace keeps trading early draft picks for players who may never do anything....due to the result of him constantly ignoring the glaring weakness of our offense, which is the OLine.
What I was comparing was this desire to find an offensive line across different eras and what those ramifications might be--if you don't remember your history you're doomed to repeat it. I was where you are only with respect to Angelo, and with Angelo there was much more reason to lament the refusal to address the OL. Pace has shown a willingness to address it.

But apparently, you're all upset simply because Pace didn't make the Williams trade.
There are several reasons why that might be:

First, let's start with money. Williams would immediately cost 2 million more this year than Leno would. Can we afford it? And don't forget that Williams is in the last year of his deal. We don't know if he'll demand he be renegotiated this year or what his price tag will be next.

Second, Williams is more than a bit of head case. He held out all last year. He nixed a trade to go Minnesota. Hell, he's going to a team with Richard Sherman who he once fought with. Do we even know how good he is after being out of the league for a year. Incidentally, he's already 31. How much longer does he have?

Third, do we even know that Washington would accept a Leno/Williams trade? Maybe they wanted the picks? Do we know that Williams would accept being in Chicago. He did go to San Francisco to be with his old coach.

Finally, the offensive line problems were NOT Charles Leno. He didn't have as good a year as he had in the past, but part of that could be because he just got married and was adapting to that life. Leno isn't a bad LT. Two year ago, he made the Pro Bowl. Personally, I'd rather Leno if Williams is going to be the head case he's been for the past two years.

You say that we haven't addressed the OL this offseason, that we're sticking with the status quo. Not true. We brought in four new offensive linemen: two veterans who would have started and two rookies (and another exciting UDFA). He brought in a whole new offensive line staff. All of these guys are quick and athletic and seem to fit our scheme more than what we had. I'm not sure what we have with all of this, but it's certainly not the status quo that we had. Why don't we wait and see what the results before we burn the place down. I'm excited with Ifredi, a former first round pick, and I loved Spriggs when he was coming out. I didn't know his two seventh rounders or the UDFA he brought in, but their tape is pretty exciting. Let's see what happens before you jump off the ledge. lol

Oh, and I'm really excited about Mooney. We needed somebody to take the top off defenses.
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Re: Rd5, P173: WR Darnell Mooney, Tulane

Tue Apr 28, 2020 10:01 pm

Yogi da Bear wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 7:53 pm
Pace has shown a willingness to address it.
Poorly.

But again, I'm not going to get into Jerry Angelo. He's been gone for what, almost a decade now? Again...apples vs. oranges.

Yogi da Bear wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 7:53 pm
But apparently, you're all upset simply because Pace didn't make the Williams trade.
The only thing I have said that I'm upset about is Pace not addressing the OL until the 7th round. A speedy receiver like Mooney is very nice, but I remember all of the circle jerking going on here when we drafted Anthony Miller two years ago. I haven't given up on him yet, but I highly doubt he's going to do any better with the same OL. Mooney won't be any different.

I remember the Vikings drafting some kid out of South Carolina back in like 2003 or 2004 who ran a sub 4.3 forty yard dash. He never did anything in the NFL for two reasons....his hands were too small (couldn't catch) and Minnesota's OL sucked balls. I also remember the Raiders having the fastest team in all of football for like 5 years straight during the end of the Al Davis era. How many Super Bowls did we see those teams win in that time?

So what exactly were you implying about not knowing history?

Yogi da Bear wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 7:53 pm
There are several reasons why that might be:

First, let's start with money. Williams would immediately cost 2 million more this year than Leno would. Can we afford it? And don't forget that Williams is in the last year of his deal. We don't know if he'll demand he be renegotiated this year or what his price tag will be next.
The answer is yes.

Last report I read said the Bears have $10 million in cap space, which is basically irrelevant when you factor in other creative things you can do with the cap. They could have given him a 2 year extension and reworked some of the money into a bonus that you can write off later, effectively making it a one year deal and force him to earn the remaining time. Then there are other dead weight players you can cut to make room. As the cap grows, it is becoming less and less a concern the further we get from its inception.

Yogi da Bear wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 7:53 pm
Second, Williams is more than a bit of head case. He held out all last year. He nixed a trade to go Minnesota. Hell, he's going to a team with Richard Sherman who he once fought with. Do we even know how good he is after being out of the league for a year. Incidentally, he's already 31. How much longer does he have?
I live in the Washington DC area. I have for over 20 years now. I literally quit reading that quote above after "head case" comment due to the fact that he played for the Redskins, whom I refer to as the "Foreskins." They are undoubtedly the worst run organization, probably in all of professional sports (and I'm including foreign sports leagues). So forgive me if you made a point after the "head case" part. I seem to remember Mack was a head case with the Raiders. I wonder where he is these days?

Yogi da Bear wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 7:53 pm
Third, do we even know that Washington would accept a Leno/Williams trade? Maybe they wanted the picks? Do we know that Williams would accept being in Chicago. He did go to San Francisco to be with his old coach.
Fair point...the coach part...but I do know the Foreskins wanted him gone. The question isn't would Washington want Leno, the question is would Williams want Chicago? The chance to practice against Mack would be a good reason, but now he gets Bosa instead. I'm sure SF would have won had it been one or the other based on the coach part, but if you don't even try how do you know?

Yogi da Bear wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 7:53 pm
Finally, the offensive line problems were NOT Charles Leno. He didn't have as good a year as he had in the past, but part of that could be because he just got married and was adapting to that life. Leno isn't a bad LT. Two year ago, he made the Pro Bowl. Personally, I'd rather Leno if Williams is going to be the head case he's been for the past two years.
So he didn't have a good year....and then you make an excuse for it. Is the honeymoon over? Is he growing a vagina like Kyle Long? I never said the OLine problems were all on Leno. I simply made a case that Pace could have improved the quality of the LT position and if you combine that with Ifedi and the draft, at worst you have created competition for the remaining spots.

...and before you ask, the answer is yes. I would take Williams over Leno.

Yogi da Bear wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 7:53 pm
You say that we haven't addressed the OL this offseason, that we're sticking with the status quo. Not true. We brought in four new offensive linemen: two veterans who would have started and two rookies (and another exciting UDFA). He brought in a whole new offensive line staff. All of these guys are quick and athletic and seem to fit our scheme more than what we had. I'm not sure what we have with all of this, but it's certainly not the status quo that we had. Why don't we wait and see what the results before we burn the place down. I'm excited with Ifredi, a former first round pick, and I loved Spriggs when he was coming out. I didn't know his two seventh rounders or the UDFA he brought in, but their tape is pretty exciting. Let's see what happens before you jump off the ledge. lol
I'm more excited about the Dieter kid from Yale than the two who were drafted. The two 7th rounders may not make the team (practice squad most likely).

The status quo...Ifedi was brought in to replace a worthless pile a filth and garbage, piece of sh*t p*ssy, waste of space and money. Aside from that, what changes were made to the remaining starters???

Nothing.

Same players, different coach. The whole "the new guy fits the scheme better" is an old and tired phrase. Why hire Harry Hiestand if he didn't fit the scheme? Why not hire Juan Castillo from the get go? Again, I'm highly skeptical of a new coach coming in and making bad players good all of a sudden. He doesn't have a magic wand and he's not going to be telling them anything any differently. OL is about attitude more than anything and what I've seen out of this OL the past few seasons is enough to make me want to puke coat hangars.

Again, you have to send a message. Move some players in and out and if that doesn't change their attitude, ship them the F out of town. OL is the most important position group on offense....because without an OL, you don't have an offense. THAT, is why you focus on OL early in the draft, not later.

Yogi da Bear wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 7:53 pm
Oh, and I'm really excited about Mooney. We needed somebody to take the top off defenses.
With no OL, you're going to have to wait on that one there...
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Re: Rd5, P173: WR Darnell Mooney, Tulane

Wed Apr 29, 2020 6:57 am

makaur wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 10:01 pm
Yogi da Bear wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 7:53 pm
Pace has shown a willingness to address it.
Poorly.

But again, I'm not going to get into Jerry Angelo. He's been gone for what, almost a decade now? Again...apples vs. oranges.

Yogi da Bear wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 7:53 pm
But apparently, you're all upset simply because Pace didn't make the Williams trade.
The only thing I have said that I'm upset about is Pace not addressing the OL until the 7th round. A speedy receiver like Mooney is very nice, but I remember all of the circle jerking going on here when we drafted Anthony Miller two years ago. I haven't given up on him yet, but I highly doubt he's going to do any better with the same OL. Mooney won't be any different.

I remember the Vikings drafting some kid out of South Carolina back in like 2003 or 2004 who ran a sub 4.3 forty yard dash. He never did anything in the NFL for two reasons....his hands were too small (couldn't catch) and Minnesota's OL sucked balls. I also remember the Raiders having the fastest team in all of football for like 5 years straight during the end of the Al Davis era. How many Super Bowls did we see those teams win in that time?
:rofl: "I wont talk about Pace vs Angelo because it's apples to oranges and over a decade ago! But then i'll go and compare the current Bears to teams from two decades ago! Since it's the points I want to make, it's apples vs apples! or is it oranges vs oranges?"

That's some good stuff right there thank you!
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Re: Rd5, P173: WR Darnell Mooney, Tulane

Wed Apr 29, 2020 11:46 am

makaur wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 10:01 pm
Yogi da Bear wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 7:53 pm
Pace has shown a willingness to address it.
Poorly.
Well, he's drafted two second rounders who currently start for us.
Yogi da Bear wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 7:53 pm
But apparently, you're all upset simply because Pace didn't make the Williams trade.
So what exactly were you implying about not knowing history?
I'm not implying anything. I'm stating straight out. When you blindly reach for need, you're going to get burned, regardless of the position you're reaching for. It's happened with us with offensive linemen with Gabe Carimi, Chrissie Williams, and Stan Thomas. If you don't recognize this simple fact, then you either don't know history or you're forgetting it.

Yogi da Bear wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 7:53 pm
There are several reasons why that might be:

First, let's start with money. Williams would immediately cost 2 million more this year than Leno would. Can we afford it? And don't forget that Williams is in the last year of his deal. We don't know if he'll demand he be renegotiated this year or what his price tag will be next.
The answer is yes.

Last report I read said the Bears have $10 million in cap space, which is basically irrelevant when you factor in other creative things you can do with the cap. They could have given him a 2 year extension and reworked some of the money into a bonus that you can write off later, effectively making it a one year deal and force him to earn the remaining time. Then there are other dead weight players you can cut to make room. As the cap grows, it is becoming less and less a concern the further we get from its inception.
I'll give you the 10 mill (OTC has it at 9.3), but let's go with the 10 mill. Williams makes 2 mill more than Leno and then Leno has the 7.4 dead cap hit. Already you're at 9.4 mill and you still have a 5 mill rookie pool you have to come up plus operating cap space during the year. Not as easy as you make it out.

And even still, for any renegotiating, Williams would have to be WILLING to do it. We aren't sure right now if he's not demanding a whole new contract or what he's going to be demanding next year.

Yogi da Bear wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 7:53 pm
Second, Williams is more than a bit of head case. He held out all last year. He nixed a trade to go Minnesota. Hell, he's going to a team with Richard Sherman who he once fought with. Do we even know how good he is after being out of the league for a year. Incidentally, he's already 31. How much longer does he have?
I live in the Washington DC area. I have for over 20 years now. I literally quit reading that quote above after "head case" comment due to the fact that he played for the Redskins, whom I refer to as the "Foreskins." They are undoubtedly the worst run organization, probably in all of professional sports (and I'm including foreign sports leagues). So forgive me if you made a point after the "head case" part. I seem to remember Mack was a head case with the Raiders. I wonder where he is these days?
Dude, the guy walked away from nearly 13 million dollars by holding out for an entire season. Anybody who does that, is a de facto nut job in my book. I don't care what team he plays for. And that's not even including negotiating with Minnesota and then saying, "oh, I don't want to play there...."

And with him being out of football for a year, do we even know how good he is now? The Rams were interested in him, but they wanted to convert him to guard.

Nope, I DON'T WANT HIM. Too much head case and questionability coming back.

Yogi da Bear wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 7:53 pm
Third, do we even know that Washington would accept a Leno/Williams trade? Maybe they wanted the picks? Do we know that Williams would accept being in Chicago. He did go to San Francisco to be with his old coach.
Fair point...the coach part...but I do know the Foreskins wanted him gone. The question isn't would Washington want Leno, the question is would Williams want Chicago? The chance to practice against Mack would be a good reason, but now he gets Bosa instead. I'm sure SF would have won had it been one or the other based on the coach part, but if you don't even try how do you know?
Didn't want to go to Minnesota. Does he even know Mack? Incidentally, if we were in this, how much would the price drive up?

Yogi da Bear wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 7:53 pm
Finally, the offensive line problems were NOT Charles Leno. He didn't have as good a year as he had in the past, but part of that could be because he just got married and was adapting to that life. Leno isn't a bad LT. Two year ago, he made the Pro Bowl. Personally, I'd rather Leno if Williams is going to be the head case he's been for the past two years.
So he didn't have a good year....and then you make an excuse for it. Is the honeymoon over? Is he growing a vagina like Kyle Long? I never said the OLine problems were all on Leno. I simply made a case that Pace could have improved the quality of the LT position and if you combine that with Ifedi and the draft, at worst you have created competition for the remaining spots.

...and before you ask, the answer is yes. I would take Williams over Leno.
Leno wasn't at the Pro Bowl level he was the year before, but he played decently. He was probably the second best lineman on the team. With Williams having sat, and what he's going to demand in money, and the likelihood that other crap will go down with him (watch him punch Richard Sherman again lol), I'm very okay with Leno over him.

Yogi da Bear wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 7:53 pm
You say that we haven't addressed the OL this offseason, that we're sticking with the status quo. Not true. We brought in four new offensive linemen: two veterans who would have started and two rookies (and another exciting UDFA). He brought in a whole new offensive line staff. All of these guys are quick and athletic and seem to fit our scheme more than what we had. I'm not sure what we have with all of this, but it's certainly not the status quo that we had. Why don't we wait and see what the results before we burn the place down. I'm excited with Ifredi, a former first round pick, and I loved Spriggs when he was coming out. I didn't know his two seventh rounders or the UDFA he brought in, but their tape is pretty exciting. Let's see what happens before you jump off the ledge. lol
I'm more excited about the Dieter kid from Yale than the two who were drafted. The two 7th rounders may not make the team (practice squad most likely).

The status quo...Ifedi was brought in to replace a worthless pile a filth and garbage, piece of sh*t p*ssy, waste of space and money. Aside from that, what changes were made to the remaining starters???

Nothing.
Again, don't know that. Don't know that Spriggs and Ifedi don't take over the right side of the line. Ifedi's a former first round pick while Spriggs is a former second rounder. They're both heading into their fifth year and they both have started at BOTH RG and RT. And they're both much more quicker, more athletic, and mobile that EITHER Coward or Massie. Them, not Charles Leno, were the weak links along our OL last year.

Whatever the case, I do know that I'd much rather have Spriggs as a swing tackle than Lucas, and I'd much rather have the young depth that we've brought in than the Ted Larsens of the past.
Same players, different coach. The whole "the new guy fits the scheme better" is an old and tired phrase. Why hire Harry Hiestand if he didn't fit the scheme? Why not hire Juan Castillo from the get go? Again, I'm highly skeptical of a new coach coming in and making bad players good all of a sudden. He doesn't have a magic wand and he's not going to be telling them anything any differently. OL is about attitude more than anything and what I've seen out of this OL the past few seasons is enough to make me want to puke coat hangars.

Again, you have to send a message. Move some players in and out and if that doesn't change their attitude, ship them the F out of town. OL is the most important position group on offense....because without an OL, you don't have an offense. THAT, is why you focus on OL early in the draft, not later.
I'm not trying to glorify Pace or blindly defend him. He's made his mistakes. His two biggest mistakes were not getting a viable backup for Long, given his injury history, and extending Massie with that stupid contract. Personally, I think that's why Hiestandt's gone. He likes the more powerful linemen. I think he convinced the team to extend Massie. But whatever the case, it's still on Pace's shoulders.

But now they've brought in quicker offensive linemen that are more suited to running Nagy's system. That's why the switch to Castillo.

I also think Pace failed in bringing in some competent TE help for continuously injured Shaheen and Burton. We now have an F TE who's proven he can stay healthy and a U TE in Kmet who can actually block.

As to Mooney, I love the pick. In fact, it was my favorite of the draft for the Bears. Not only can he take the top of the defense, he can take the bottom out too. He can take a WR screen or a shallow cross and take it the distance.

So tell me, aside from the Williams trade, what would you have done? Who would you have picked and when? Let's see this fifth round offensive linemen that you would have taken rather than Mooney who would have cured all our OL woes. Or second round lineman for that matter? And as an aside, did you like the Mack trade?
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Re: Rd5, P173: WR Darnell Mooney, Tulane

Wed Apr 29, 2020 11:53 am

dplank wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 1:58 pm

We rank 25th in the NFL in OL spending. We don't value it, plain and simple.
It is hard to argue against the numbers - so I won't. I'll just point out that in context, Pace *thought* he had addressed the OTs very fortunately (I'm sure he thought wisely) so they could put the resources elsewhere. I guess he could have paid for the FA OT and not the FA OLB/DE. So that does show a value judgement. I just think if we look at decisions and opportunities across time, we see he did think he addressed the OL properly, is doing what he can now, and will address it appropriately in the near future.
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Re: Rd5, P173: WR Darnell Mooney, Tulane

Wed Apr 29, 2020 12:09 pm

IE wrote:
Wed Apr 29, 2020 11:53 am
dplank wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 1:58 pm

We rank 25th in the NFL in OL spending. We don't value it, plain and simple.
It is hard to argue against the numbers - so I won't. I'll just point out that in context, Pace *thought* he had addressed the OTs very fortunately (I'm sure he thought wisely) so they could put the resources elsewhere. I guess he could have paid for the FA OT and not the FA OLB/DE. So that does show a value judgement. I just think if we look at decisions and opportunities across time, we see he did think he addressed the OL properly, is doing what he can now, and will address it appropriately in the near future.
Fair take IE...very fair. And ultimately, despite rambling on infinitum about this, all I'm really asking for from our franchise is to move the needle slightly more in the OL direction as far as where we invest our resources. That's all, it's less about individual moves and more about the overall top view. I'm very much a "build the lines" guy.
Chuck Pagano's defensive rankings in 6 years with Indy: 26th, 20th, 11th, 26th, 30th, and 30th.
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Re: Rd5, P173: WR Darnell Mooney, Tulane

Wed Apr 29, 2020 12:16 pm

Can every draft pick thread NOT turn into a bitchfest about the OL?
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Re: Rd5, P173: WR Darnell Mooney, Tulane

Wed Apr 29, 2020 1:47 pm

"Daniels is the 32nd paid LG, Ifedi will be the 33rd paid RG, and Whitehair is the 9th paid Center. We are NOT investing here."

Daniels was a 2nd Round pick! Whitehair too (with a good sized extension) - What on EARTH are you talking about here

Investment in the OL absolutely CANNOT be only Cap Hits - that's INSANE

BY that Logic Bobby Massie is more of an investment in the Offensive Line than if you Spent THREE 2nd Round picks on the OL

I.E. It's bad logic
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Re: Rd5, P173: WR Darnell Mooney, Tulane

Wed Apr 29, 2020 2:18 pm

Dplank - Curious on your take re: Leno (Not as to him v. Trent)

Why do you think Leno's play fell off so badly last year ? (I have posted several times just how absolutely odd it seemed)

And what would you think the odds of a bounce back season for Leno are?
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Re: Rd5, P173: WR Darnell Mooney, Tulane

Wed Apr 29, 2020 2:32 pm

RichH55 wrote:
Wed Apr 29, 2020 2:18 pm
Dplank - Curious on your take re: Leno (Not as to him v. Trent)

Why do you think Leno's play fell off so badly last year ? (I have posted several times just how absolutely odd it seemed)

And what would you think the odds of a bounce back season for Leno are?
I know this question wasn't directed at me, but I believe it was reported that some of the techniques HH had been teaching were ones that the NFL began to crack down on. Specifically the subtle sliding of the hand/forearm up to the neck/chin forcing the defenders head upwards to where the he couldn't see where he was going. This wasn't considered "hands to the face" in the past because it never really looked intentional.

Leno's success always revolved around his ability to use his long arms and quick feet to route the defender around the back of the QB. This exposed him and his technique.

It was also HH who pounded the table for Daniels moving to center (most of us thought he was right) but as weird as it sounds...he wasn't loud enough to where the OL could hear the calls and Coward was royally f'ing everything up because of it.

Over the last 6 games or so when Whitehair/Daniels settled back into their old spots and Leno adjusted his technique, they started jelling again. Coward was still blocking the wrong guys and pulling when he wasn't supposed to and pass blocking when he was supposed to run block... so that didn't help.

Do I think they will rebound - yes. They need help schematically from Nagy and Castillo though.

I also think it's time for them to consider the future at OT and RG. But would rookies at those positions really help a team who needs to win now? Probably not.
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Re: Rd5, P173: WR Darnell Mooney, Tulane

Wed Apr 29, 2020 3:01 pm

Thanks WAB
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Re: Rd5, P173: WR Darnell Mooney, Tulane

Wed Apr 29, 2020 3:05 pm

dplank wrote:
Wed Apr 29, 2020 12:09 pm
IE wrote:
Wed Apr 29, 2020 11:53 am


It is hard to argue against the numbers - so I won't. I'll just point out that in context, Pace *thought* he had addressed the OTs very fortunately (I'm sure he thought wisely) so they could put the resources elsewhere. I guess he could have paid for the FA OT and not the FA OLB/DE. So that does show a value judgement. I just think if we look at decisions and opportunities across time, we see he did think he addressed the OL properly, is doing what he can now, and will address it appropriately in the near future.
Fair take IE...very fair. And ultimately, despite rambling on infinitum about this, all I'm really asking for from our franchise is to move the needle slightly more in the OL direction as far as where we invest our resources. That's all, it's less about individual moves and more about the overall top view. I'm very much a "build the lines" guy.
I absolutely agree with this. Pace has shown a willingness to address the OL in the draft. In his first four drafts, he drafted an OL in the third and seventh in his first, in the second in his second, a fifth in his third, and a second in his fourth. That's a lot of draft capital to spend.

It wasn't until we spent the money on and lost the draft picks for Mack that he got away from the OL. That move took up a lot of draft capital and cap space as well. I'm very much an OL guy, but I can't complain with Pace's approach. Remember our defense under Emery--EMBEARASSING! We now have a top flight defense. Once the dust settles from the Mack deal, I think we'll start seeing OL picks early again. In the meantime, I really can't complain about the OL he got in this year's draft or after or what he did in free agency. I really like all the guys he got this offseason. Not sure how they'll pan out, but they all look athletic and very nasty.
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Re: Rd5, P173: WR Darnell Mooney, Tulane

Thu Apr 30, 2020 9:56 am

wab wrote:
Wed Apr 29, 2020 12:16 pm
Can every draft pick thread NOT turn into a bitchfest about the OL?
This is a great discussion. But there are better places for it than the Darnell Mooney thread.
Mikefive's theory: The only time you KNOW that a sports team player, coach or management member is being 100% honest is when they're NOT reciting "the company line".

Go back to leather helmets, NFL.
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Re: Rd5, P173: WR Darnell Mooney, Tulane

Thu Apr 30, 2020 3:47 pm

HurricaneBear wrote:
Wed Apr 29, 2020 6:57 am
:rofl: "I wont talk about Pace vs Angelo because it's apples to oranges and over a decade ago! But then i'll go and compare the current Bears to teams from two decades ago! Since it's the points I want to make, it's apples vs apples! or is it oranges vs oranges?"

That's some good stuff right there thank you!
You're not the brightest bulb are you?

The concept of a fast guy with small hands on a team with no OL perfectly applies to the discussion. The knock on Mooney? Small hands.....and we have no OL.

Nice try though.
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Re: Rd5, P173: WR Darnell Mooney, Tulane

Thu Apr 30, 2020 4:50 pm

Yogi da Bear wrote:
Wed Apr 29, 2020 11:46 am
makaur wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 10:01 pm

Poorly.
Well, he's drafted two second rounders who currently start for us.
....and I'm not impressed with either of them, especially when quite a few winnable games last year were lost for the very reason that neither of them could block worth a damn.

Yogi da Bear wrote:
Wed Apr 29, 2020 11:46 am
makaur wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 10:01 pm
So what exactly were you implying about not knowing history?
I'm not implying anything. I'm stating straight out. When you blindly reach for need, you're going to get burned, regardless of the position you're reaching for. It's happened with us with offensive linemen with Gabe Carimi, Chrissie Williams, and Stan Thomas. If you don't recognize this simple fact, then you either don't know history or you're forgetting it.
Yawn. I've been a Bears fan for nearly 40 years now. Sure I don't remember 1980 all that well, but I remember the team didn't start winning until a f*cking offensive line was built to help Walter Payton.

Whether you've been a fan longer or shorter is irrelevant. I played the game through college and if I can point to one thing that's true about football regardless of the time, it's that if you don't have an offensive line, then you don't have an offense. Games are won and lost in the trenches. That was true then and it's especially true now.

I don't give a F about Stan Thomas or Gabe Carimi or Jay Hilgenberg or whoever the starting RT was in 1954. I care about this team....this offensive line....and trust me, they suck.


Yogi da Bear wrote:
Wed Apr 29, 2020 11:46 am
makaur wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 10:01 pm
The answer is yes.

Last report I read said the Bears have $10 million in cap space, which is basically irrelevant when you factor in other creative things you can do with the cap. They could have given him a 2 year extension and reworked some of the money into a bonus that you can write off later, effectively making it a one year deal and force him to earn the remaining time. Then there are other dead weight players you can cut to make room. As the cap grows, it is becoming less and less a concern the further we get from its inception.
I'll give you the 10 mill (OTC has it at 9.3), but let's go with the 10 mill. Williams makes 2 mill more than Leno and then Leno has the 7.4 dead cap hit. Already you're at 9.4 mill and you still have a 5 mill rookie pool you have to come up plus operating cap space during the year. Not as easy as you make it out.

And even still, for any renegotiating, Williams would have to be WILLING to do it. We aren't sure right now if he's not demanding a whole new contract or what he's going to be demanding next year.
....and once again, there are creative things you can do with the cap to move money to later years, dump current players (which I'm sure they'll do) to free up space, or rework the deal so that the current year hit is next to nothing but is backloaded so you can cut or trade him after a year, basically making it a one year deal.

I'll keep repeating this over and over if I have to.

Yogi da Bear wrote:
Wed Apr 29, 2020 11:46 am
makaur wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 10:01 pm
I live in the Washington DC area. I have for over 20 years now. I literally quit reading that quote above after "head case" comment due to the fact that he played for the Redskins, whom I refer to as the "Foreskins." They are undoubtedly the worst run organization, probably in all of professional sports (and I'm including foreign sports leagues). So forgive me if you made a point after the "head case" part. I seem to remember Mack was a head case with the Raiders. I wonder where he is these days?
Dude, the guy walked away from nearly 13 million dollars by holding out for an entire season. Anybody who does that, is a de facto nut job in my book. I don't care what team he plays for. And that's not even including negotiating with Minnesota and then saying, "oh, I don't want to play there...."

And with him being out of football for a year, do we even know how good he is now? The Rams were interested in him, but they wanted to convert him to guard.

Nope, I DON'T WANT HIM. Too much head case and questionability coming back.
If you want to have a debate about Williams, I have no problem explaining to you why he's a far better player. Yes, even after holding out for a year.

I was simply making an EXAMPLE of what Pace COULD have done. I never said he SHOULD HAVE done that.

......and I believe folks were saying Khalil Mack was a head case before we traded for him. Are you upset that we have that head case on the team???

Yogi da Bear wrote:
Wed Apr 29, 2020 11:46 am
makaur wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 10:01 pm
Fair point...the coach part...but I do know the Foreskins wanted him gone. The question isn't would Washington want Leno, the question is would Williams want Chicago? The chance to practice against Mack would be a good reason, but now he gets Bosa instead. I'm sure SF would have won had it been one or the other based on the coach part, but if you don't even try how do you know?
Didn't want to go to Minnesota. Does he even know Mack? Incidentally, if we were in this, how much would the price drive up?
I honestly do not give a flying F what the price would have been but I said in my original post, and I'll make the letters big so that you see it this time....

A PLAYER FOR PLAYER SWAP!!! That means no draft picks and no new contract negotiations as a condition of the trade. Got it?

....and who the F does NOT know Khalil Mack????????

Yogi da Bear wrote:
Wed Apr 29, 2020 11:46 am
Leno wasn't at the Pro Bowl level he was the year before, but he played decently. He was probably the second best lineman on the team. With Williams having sat, and what he's going to demand in money, and the likelihood that other crap will go down with him (watch him punch Richard Sherman again lol), I'm very okay with Leno over him.
Agree to disagree.

A) I never said Leno should be traded for Williams or anyone else. I simply made a point that had Pace traded for him, in addition to the other moves he's made this offseason, then I'd be happy thinking that he's addressing the team's glaring weakness. Instead, I'm getting the impression that he actually thinks the OL is a strength.

Having watched the offense the past two seasons, there is no way in heck anyone with half a football brain would think the OL is solid. I'm not impressed with any of them. The best OL move that was made this offseason is the one that Pace did not make. It was when Kyle "I have a vagina" Long decided to retire. Now if I find out that Pace approached him with some kind of blackmail, and said if he didn't retire that Pace would release the information and Long being the pussy he is, obliged him....then I would respect Pace. However, I doubt that happened...because I don't think Pace has the set of balls that it would require.

Even in 2018, with wins piling on top of wins, I thought the OL was a problem. A kicker, who did suck, got the blame for the playoff loss when if you watch game film, we couldn't run the ball nor did Trubisky have time to set his feet. That's on the OL, and nothing has been done about it since.


B) Saying someone who is the second best at a position group that is awful is kind of like saying, "Hey, that fart smelled a lot better than the first one!"


C) I really don't take much out of someone playing in one Pro-Bowl. I'm sure Leno had a great season and all, but you have to remember who we played....if memory serves, we were playing a last place schedule. This past season, we played a 1st place schedule. See the difference? We need a LT who can play against the best of the best and come out the victor. We will see how he does this season against a 3rd place schedule. If there is a season...

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