Rd7 P226: OL Arlington Hambright, Colorado

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Z Bear
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Re: Rd7 P226: OL Arlington Hambright, Colorado

Sun Apr 26, 2020 3:37 pm

So now there is someone besides Leno that can play LT. Sounds like this guy is good with speed but gets bull rushed.
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Re: Rd7 P226: OL Arlington Hambright, Colorado

Sun Apr 26, 2020 4:17 pm

AZ_Bearfan wrote:
Sun Apr 26, 2020 3:18 pm
Haha.... like he always has some Grey Poupon on him.
I assume it's an oversight that they didn't list his full name, Arlington Hambright VIII.
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Re: Rd7 P226: OL Arlington Hambright, Colorado

Mon Apr 27, 2020 7:35 am

To be honest I know nothing about either of our 7th round Oline picks. The line is a need, so I guess I am glad we took a pair of guys, but a little bummed that they were only in the 7th, and I hope one of them won't become a JAG.
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Yogi da Bear
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Re: Rd7 P226: OL Arlington Hambright, Colorado

Tue Apr 28, 2020 10:15 pm

dplank wrote:
Sun Apr 26, 2020 1:41 pm
thunderspirit wrote:
Sun Apr 26, 2020 1:10 pm
Two 2nd round picks who have panned out and a 3rd who has not seems like a substantial investment to me.

But YMMV.
Look at the last two super bowl teams and what they invest in theirs. Multiple first rounders on both of those rosters, high ones. Oh, and no surprise they were smart enough to nab Williams as well.

So call it what you want, but comparatively we don’t invest as much and it’s not close.
I didn't think that was true, so I decided to check on it. Offensive linemen drafted since 2015 when Pace took over the Bears:

Chiefs: 1 C(2019 7th); 2 OGs (2016 4th, 2015 2nd); 1 OT(2020 3rd). Total = 4.

Niners: O C; 3 OGs (2016 1st--now with Detroit, 2015 6th, 2015 7th); 5 OTS (2020 5th, 2019 6th, 2018 1st, 2015 5th and 5th). Total=8

Bears: 2 Cs(2018 2nd, 2015 3rd), 4 OGs(2020 7th, 2017 5th, 2016 2nd, 2015 6th); 1 OT (2020 7th). Total = 7.

So obviously the draft capital spent isn't as disparate as you suggest DP. In fact, the Chiefs only have drafted 4 OL (1 2nd and 1 3rd), while Pace has drafted 7 (2 2nds and a third). The Chiefs do have Fisher who they drafted #1 overall, but that was before Pace ever got here and was the same year we drafted Long in the first.

The Niners have drafted one more OL and they do have 2 first rounders, but only one of those is still on the team. After those two first, the rest of their OL draft picks are fifths and below. The Bears have 2 2nds and a third during that time.

And all of this was done without two first round picks for Mack. No I don't think the Bears are out of whack along the OL with what the Chiefs and Niners have done in the draft.
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Re: Rd7 P226: OL Arlington Hambright, Colorado

Wed Apr 29, 2020 7:44 am

Bud, I hope you don't do surveys or analytics for a living. Investing in the position means a lot of things like a) how many people you draft b) how high of draft selections you use c) how much you spend in free agency d) and is all relative to current performance - meaning, if you already have a stalwart OL you probably don't need to do much more than keep/resign them regardless of how you got them to begin with. So if you got lucky and a lower end pick pans out, you don't have to actively pursue replacements there.

You're post misses a majority of this and tries to throw draft numbers to obfuscate a much simpler problem. We don't take OL when we get high first round picks (Pace has gone WR, OLB, QB, ILB with is 4 top 10's) and we don't sign top shelf OL free agents and we spend near the bottom on the NFL of our cap % on the position. And our OL routinely, year in and year out, ranks in the bottom half, if not bottom third, of the NFL. These things are simple, verifiable facts. And outweigh your counter by a margin.

Oh, and regarding the niners...yea, they have 2 first rounders (kinda the point) and yes, they lost one of them....but they replaced him with another Top 10 first rounder!!!!

Bears fans complain that this is where QB's go to die, and this is where WR's go to die...coincidence? Nope. SF is the perfect example, they focus on OL and what happens....mediocre players like Mostert play great. Or Garrapollo. Or their WR corps, who I can't even name but they sure do perform! It's all about the lines in football, on both sides of the ball. Pace has been outstanding on the defensive side of the ball, but has sacrificed the other side in the process.
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Re: Rd7 P226: OL Arlington Hambright, Colorado

Wed Apr 29, 2020 9:39 am

Trent Williams cost a 3rd and 5th - Noting he was a Top Ten pick for a different team is not so helpful.

I somehow doubt we get that kind of benefit of the doubt for brining in B. Mingo

Both of you and Yogi have some solid points - but both are going overboard in what they mean. IMHO


I think DPlank's point is most correct about Right Guard - It was very clear this offseason (very arguably last off season too) that we had a need there

I'm not sure how smart it actually would have been to sign a FA this year - Guard FA can be good (Good Guards often DO make FA unlike even decent OT) but they are pretty costly (I don't think anyone wants the guy the Lions are paying like 10 million to at that price)

Guard is also probably the easiest position to find out there too - so how much resources there becomes a team building question generally

Dplank - question - odds that Bars can come in and be an average to above average Guard this Year? I don't think its all that crazy
I think the Bears had a solid line when Long was good (Granted its been two- three years on that?) and Leno was good (which was true until this last season) - they have yet to really replace Long and Leno going from a top 10-13 LT to a much lesser player last year was - quite frankly - odd
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Re: Rd7 P226: OL Arlington Hambright, Colorado

Wed Apr 29, 2020 10:04 am

Fair post but the Mingo point is pretty bad. The difference there being the fact that Trent Williams might make the HOF (at a minimum is one of the best LT's in the game over the last decade-ish) and Mingo is a total bust who might be bagging groceries soon. The point re: investment is that the 49ers spend high picks on their OL, and even still when they saw a chance to grab a top flight LT they took it. We simply do not approach OL that way. Rather, by comparative example, we spend high on our LB corps (FA Mack, FA Trevathan, Resign Trevathan, high 1st rounder Roquan), and even still when we saw a chance to grab a top flight pass rusher we took it. Our focus is elsewhere, it's not debatable IMO.

Leno was a 7th rounder who we got lucky on. Massie was a "middling" FA signing. Coward, UDFA starter, probably replaced by another teams cast off. We spent 2nds on Daniels and Whitehair, and that's good, so we don't flagrantly ignore the position, but we don't value it like some other teams do. There's a reason why our OL is rarely any good, I'm talking over 30 YEARS of watching...here and there we have good ones, but generally speaking, we're bottom third. And that's why our skill players rarely seem to pan out.

Drafting two 7th rounders and signing two cast offs from other teams just isn't the approach I wanted to take to our OL this offseason.
Last edited by dplank on Wed Apr 29, 2020 10:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Rd7 P226: OL Arlington Hambright, Colorado

Wed Apr 29, 2020 10:10 am

Sorry forgot to answer your Bars question. IMO it's a long shot. He wasn't drafted for a reason, and he didn't crack our lineup last year despite horrible play from Long and Coward. Even when Coward went down we turned to Larson. Massie went down and we turned to Lucas. I guess we see something in him or we would have let him go to the Pats, but I still think it's a long shot especially this year - my pure guess is he needed more than 1 year to get his strength up to hold up against the big boys.

I don't think it's crazy or anything, I just wouldn't pin any hopes on it.
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RichH55
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Re: Rd7 P226: OL Arlington Hambright, Colorado

Wed Apr 29, 2020 11:05 am

Still the cost on Trent was not a Top Ten pick - it was a 5th and future 3rd (i.e. a 4th) - I loved that for the 49ers too - but saying they invested as if he were a Top Ten pick - or sprinkling in the Top Ten pick in any manner - It's not really a fair point in terms of value. (Doesn't matter - Doesn't matter that

Lets also see where Trent is - He just skipped a year and is in his 30s - I still think it's a great move for them


49ers had 2 First Round Picks - Skipped OL on both (even traded down from #13 where One of the best OT prospects was sitting there after a small Fall)

5th and future 3rd are NOT High Picks (3rd could hurt obviously - but that is counted as a 4th Rounder for Trade Value Chart - Resources)


Massie got a pretty big FA contract (especially the 1st Deal) - that doesn't actually support your "resources" position - That's more about what you think Massie the player IMHO

Leno being a 7th hasn't mattered for awhile either - Until last season he was a pretty proven commodity (again - really weird that he was bad last year - Injured? That would make sense that happens - But just kind of losing his Fastball at 27-28? Weird). They obviously did get Lucky on him - and were smart on the contract extension (seemingly) getting it done early and below market

Having a guy coming off 4 years of Good Football - at 27-28 Years old signed long Term - Feels like that was having something committed to the position. - Again- So Odd his last year - Maybe the oddest thing of all of Bears Football last year IMHO

Though if he plays like he did last year then it doesn't matter how smart or lucky it seemed in the past - And they did pass on guys Like Josh Jones this year

But right now our biggest hole is Right Guard - One of the easier spots to fill in Football.

It would not surprise me if one of Bars or the Seahawks cast off (They drafted that kid to be a Tackle and really tried him there a few times - He just is NOT a good Tackle - But Not Good Tackles becomes Good Guards all the time)

Or even one of the 7ths - it would not shock me
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Re: Rd7 P226: OL Arlington Hambright, Colorado

Wed Apr 29, 2020 11:13 am

Dplank - from a resources and move stand point

Would you have been happy with either
Glasnow - 4 years 44 Million
or
Lions Viatai for 5 years 50 Million?

I know I wouldn't have been
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Re: Rd7 P226: OL Arlington Hambright, Colorado

Wed Apr 29, 2020 11:44 am

I'm not sure how else I can explain it Rich, but I'm zigging and your zagging here. You aren't getting the gist of my point, the cost of Trent isn't the point and it's not a narrowly times thought (meaning, look at 20 year trends not 2 year trends). Maybe this will help. My definition of INVESTMENT in this context is: Any use of the available finite resources available to a GM to add players to your team. These resources include, but are not limited to: draft capital (where higher picks mean higher investment), FA spending (where more money spent means a higher investment), resignings (same as previous), practice squad slots/roster slots (much smaller in scale to the others, but included nonetheless), coaching hires, etc. It's a term that encompasses a lot of various activity.

So spending a Top 10 pick in the first round is a MASSIVE investment, spending a 2nd round pick is a fairly significant investment but significantly less than that Top 10 pick would be (for scale of the difference, look at the draft value chart); spending a late round pick or UDFA is a very minor investment. Signing a top tier FA is a massive investment. Signing a middle tier FA is fairly significant but much less than a top flight player, and so on.

The Bears almost never step up into the massive investment zone at this position. The last time I can recall was signing John Tait to a big deal years ago. Top of mind there so maybe I'm missing something. When we get top 10 draft picks, we go for flashier position players and never seem to go the OL route (middle to late first is about the most we seem willing to do). Again, just going top of mind here, but trying to remember top 10 picks over the last 20 years or so....Enis, Urlacher, David Terrell, Benson, McNown, Trubisky, Roquan, Floyd, Kevin White. Probably missing some. When we take OL in the first, we go mid-later round and our eval is usually wrong (are we spending as much time scouting OL prospects if we don't value them like other teams do?). And then when FA comes around, we're never in the bidding for the big OL free agents, we focus on the next tier down for some reason and let others spend there. But here's the tell...we aren't as picky buyers when shopping for defensive players. We don't mind spending Top 10 picks on linebackers, and we don't mind spending big in FA for linebackers. So looking at it like investing, we seem to try and volume spend at lower tiers hoping something pans out vs spending big for more sure things. I am not an investor so this is probably a horrible analogy, but not sure how else to explain it. It's so clearly true I'm having a hard time understanding why there's even discussion around it. The Bears don't value the OL as much as they do defensive players or skill players on offense like RB/WR. They just don't.

So when I whine about this year, I'm whining about a continuation of the trend of the last 20-30 years. Mack is signed to the biggest contract for a defensive player ever (for a moment at least), Danny T is one of our big spends this offseason, and even with that sunk cost in place and an embarrassment of riches already (we previously spent a Top10 on Roquan), we went ahead and spent the majority of our available cap space on ANOTHER OLB! All while have a GAPING hole at RG and substandard play/talent at both T positions AND a HOF talent sitting there begging to be traded for. Then we top that off by using what small draft investment capital we had this year by ignoring the position AGAIN. It's an extension of the last couple decades, not to be refuted by small short span counter examples. I hope this makes sense, I'm done explaining it so if you still don't get it I give up. No worries.

When you look at other franchises over this same long arc view (20-30 years), certain ones stand out that simply value OL more. This is a high level thought, long arc view so don't come back with this draft or this FA class or whatever, take a 30 year view here...and you see franchises like: Pittsburgh, Baltimore, San Francisco, Dallas....these teams routinely focus on their front lines and the payoff is clear - CONSISTENCY. OF course they have ups and downs, but they are far more consistent franchise than ours.

Actually..edit...maybe this is an easier way of putting it. I understand you can't invest equally everywhere and I don't mind having a defensive focus. But just looking at offense, I'd rather have an offense that has 1st and 2nd rounders on the OL, with a bunch of 4th and 5th rounders at RB/WR/TE than have an offense that has 4th and 5th rounders on the OL with 1st and 2nd rounders at the skill positions.
Last edited by dplank on Wed Apr 29, 2020 11:57 am, edited 2 times in total.
Chuck Pagano's defensive rankings in 6 years with Indy: 26th, 20th, 11th, 26th, 30th, and 30th.
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Re: Rd7 P226: OL Arlington Hambright, Colorado

Wed Apr 29, 2020 11:47 am

Regarding your specific question that came while typing this....no, not those two specific guys, but hopefully if you read my last post you better understand my point that it's a big picture thing, not a specific thing this year or whatever. I would have been thrilled however to spend 12.5M for Trent Williams though...thrilled. I like Vitai but thought he was overpaid. I agree G is easier found than T and is less costly, I want to spend at the premium position of LT and get that right, and don't give a crap if Leno becomes an overpriced swing tackle for a year (which seems to be the prevailing counter to it).
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Re: Rd7 P226: OL Arlington Hambright, Colorado

Wed Apr 29, 2020 12:08 pm

dplank wrote:
Sun Apr 26, 2020 1:41 pm
thunderspirit wrote:
Sun Apr 26, 2020 1:10 pm
Two 2nd round picks who have panned out and a 3rd who has not seems like a substantial investment to me.

But YMMV.
Look at the last two super bowl teams and what they invest in theirs. Multiple first rounders on both of those rosters, high ones. Oh, and no surprise they were smart enough to nab Williams as well.

So call it what you want, but comparatively we don’t invest as much and it’s not close.
You are kind of wrong though.

I think you will be surprised that the Bears invest in the OL just as much as other teams.

Here’s the projected starting lineup for the Bears:
Charles Leno Jr – 7th round, 246 overall
James Daniels – 2nd round, 39 overall
Cody Whitehair – 2nd round, 56 overall
Germain Ifedi – 1st round, 31 overall (Seahawks)
Bobby Massie – 4th round, 112 overall (Cardinals)

Here’s the starting offensive lines for the last 8 super bowl teams.

2019:
Chiefs:
Eric Fisher – 1st round, 1 overall
Andrew Wylie – UDFA (Colts)
Austin Reiter – 7th round, 222 overall (Redskins)
Laurent Duvernay-Tardif – 6th round, 200 overall
Mitchell Schwartz – 2nd round, 37th overall (Browns)

49ers:
Joe Staley – 1st round, 28 overall
Mike Person – 7th round, 239 overall
Ben Garland – UDFA
Laken Tomlinson – 1st round, 28 overall (Lions)
Mike McGlinchey – 1st round, 9 overall

2018:
Patriots
Trent Brown – 7th round, 244 overall (49ers)
Joe Thuney – 3rd round, 78 overall
Ted Karras – 6th round, 221 overall
Shaq Mason – 4th round, 221 overall
Marcus Cannon – 5th round, 138 overall

Rams:
Andrew Withworth – 2nd round, 55 overall (Bengals)
Rodger Saffold – 2nd round, 33 overall
John Sullivan – 6th round, 187 overall (Vikings)
Austin Blythe – 7th round, 248 overall (Colts)
Rob Havenstein – 2nd round, 57 overall

2017:
Eagles:
Halapoulivaati Vaitai – 5th round, 164 overall
Stefen Wisniewski – 2nd round, 48 overall (Raiders)
Jason Kelce – 6th round, 191 overall
Brandon Brooks – 3rd round, 76 overall (Texans)
Lane Johnson – 1st round, 4 overall

Patriots:
Nate Solder – 1st round, 17 overall
Joe Thuney – 3rd round, 78 overall
David Andrews – UDFA
Shaq Mason – 4th round, 221 overall
Cameron Fleming – 4th round 140 overall

2016:
Falcons:
Jake Matthews – 1st round 6 overall
Andy Levitre – 2nd round, 51 overall (Bills)
Ben Garland – UDFA (Broncos)
Chris Chester – 2nd round, 56 overall (Ravens)
Ryan Schraeder - UDFA

Patriots:
LaAdrian Waddle – UDFA (Lions)
Joe Thuney – 3rd round, 78 overall
David Andrews – UDFA
Shaq Mason – 4th round, 221 overall
Marcus Cannon – 5th round, 138 overall

There isn’t a single super bowl team on this list that has drafted every starter on the OL.
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Re: Rd7 P226: OL Arlington Hambright, Colorado

Wed Apr 29, 2020 12:53 pm

SMH...I give up, nuance is lost here. Never said we had to draft every starter, no idea where that came from. Most of these teams has a stud on their line somewhere, we don't. And misses the top level point that I've tried explaining ad nauseum regarding the historical trend of our focus on the position.

I'm not a great writer so I must not be articulating my point very well. It's massively obvious and not some super insightful thought, it's a well known thing that the Bears value defense over offense, and skill positions over OL. But I can't keep trying to convince folks that 2+3=5, at some point I'm just going with the "it just does" answer. And I'm already tired of hearing myself talk about it lol...like, the Ifedi point...utterly meaningless NOW where he was drafted! When WE decided to take him, we knew he was a low cost cast off! How is that not obvious? It's like claiming we invested a 2nd rounder in Spriggs...we didn't, GB did, what we did was took a low risk flyer on a guy that looked like garbage from another team.

Maybe the light will come on if you look through the OL rankings on Football Outsiders year by year. They go back to 1996. I'll try and summarize the data but i've spent more time here than I should already lol....
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wab
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Re: Rd7 P226: OL Arlington Hambright, Colorado

Wed Apr 29, 2020 1:15 pm

I mean the last two super bowl teams did not have multiple high first round picks starting on the OL. There were two top 10 picks among them.

I'm wondering if you even know the argument you are trying to make, other than "I hate the Bears OL, they don't draft enough players in the first round, and they didn't trade for Williams...so I'm mad about it".

The cold hard fact is that the Bears OL is what it is for 2020. And after bringing in a starting RG in free agency, the best we could have hoped for is a future OT or OG to be drafted relatively high.

The Bears OL in 2021 will look drastically different.
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Yogi da Bear
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Re: Rd7 P226: OL Arlington Hambright, Colorado

Wed Apr 29, 2020 1:23 pm

DP, this is what you said:
dplank wrote:
Sun Apr 26, 2020 1:41 pm
Look at the last two super bowl teams and what they invest in theirs. Multiple first rounders on both of those rosters, high ones. Oh, and no surprise they were smart enough to nab Williams as well.

So call it what you want, but comparatively we don’t invest as much and it’s not close.
To me, that made it seem like you were saying offensive linemen that they drafted. I didn't think that was right so I checked it. But now you want to include that for all players, however acquired, along the OL. Okay, let's do that:

Chiefs: 1 1st, 1 2nd, 1 6th, 1 7th, 1 udfa.

Niners: 3 1sts, 1 2nd, 1 UDFA

Bears: 1 1st, 2 2nds, 1 7th, and 1 4th (1 2nd if Spriggs wins the starting job).

So with respect to the Niners you'd be right. Not so much with respect to the Chiefs.

Now let's look at money allocated.

Chiefs: 39.2 million. I think a lot of this might be due to Fisher being the first pick in the draft.

Niners: 17.9 million. I don't think this is right. I don't think it includes Williams contract which would bring it to 30.4.

Bears: 25.5 million.

These more exhibit your point, but the surprisingly, the difference between the Niners and the Bears is far less than you would think with three first round picks.

So your initial statement with respect to the Chiefs is patently false. Pretty much true with respect to the Niners. As to assets allocated, you have a stronger case for both, but with respect to the Niners, the difference is a lot smaller than you'd think.
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Re: Rd7 P226: OL Arlington Hambright, Colorado

Wed Apr 29, 2020 1:56 pm

Looking at this over 20 years is weird too

I mean I get it from the point of a venting fan - certainly

But how much the 20 years time table matters to THIS team and THIS Regime? Marc Columbo doesn't really matter to this conversation
RichH55
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Re: Rd7 P226: OL Arlington Hambright, Colorado

Wed Apr 29, 2020 2:00 pm

The point is ultimately "You would like a better OL" (Fair point)

The rest of it is kind of not hitting its mark as a diagnostic tool
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Re: Rd7 P226: OL Arlington Hambright, Colorado

Wed Apr 29, 2020 2:05 pm

dplank wrote:
Wed Apr 29, 2020 11:47 am
Regarding your specific question that came while typing this....no, not those two specific guys, but hopefully if you read my last post you better understand my point that it's a big picture thing, not a specific thing this year or whatever. I would have been thrilled however to spend 12.5M for Trent Williams though...thrilled. I like Vitai but thought he was overpaid. I agree G is easier found than T and is less costly, I want to spend at the premium position of LT and get that right, and don't give a crap if Leno becomes an overpriced swing tackle for a year (which seems to be the prevailing counter to it).


This is very fair. - I forgot to add Ereck Flowers (another contract I dont like)

Leno returning to form isn't a crazy idea though I'd note

Ironically I would have taken Josh Jones - so we probably are closer on this that one would think
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Re: Rd7 P226: OL Arlington Hambright, Colorado

Wed Apr 29, 2020 2:17 pm

You just can't look at what the Bears have done on the OL in a vacuum.

Looking at the OL since Pace showed up tells a complete story
2015: The main need was at center - and the Bears draft Grasu in R3. He got hurt and didn't really pan out. Leno filled in for an injured Bushrod and looked like a 7th round steal. Slausen was a solid guard. Ducasse was "ok". Long was coming off of a pro bowl year and made the long awaited move to OT.

2016: Leno continued to play pretty well. The Bears drafted Whitehair in R2. Pace brought in Josh Sitton in favor of Slausen. Long moved back to guard after making the pro bowl as a RT. Massie was signed. Leno gets an extension in the offseason.

2017: For the first time in like a decade the Bears returned all 5 starters. They were considered one of the better OL's in the NFL. It fell apart a bit when Long got hurt and Grasu/Compton/Sowell were kind of a revolving door at RG. There was no reason to believe Long wouldn't come back just fine. The core of the OL was in their prime.

2018: Nagy comes in and the Bears draft Daniels in R2 to replace Sitton. Long gets hurt again in a fluke, and you could argue that the Bears should have started to get concerned about finding a replacement eventually - however they had just given him a bunch of money. Leno, Daniels, and Whitehair all make the pro bowl. Massie gets an extension and remains reasonably solid and is still only 29.

2019: Wheels fall off as both OT's under perform, Whitehair and Daniels switch spots to disastrous results, and Long gets hurt yet again. Lucas has to play 8 games, Coward is forced to play before he is ready, Larson has to play 2 games. We all know what happened.

Now is about the time that the Bears should realistically start looking at replacements for Leno and Massie...specifically Massie, and a long term solution at RG. Was this the draft to do it? Maybe. But they didn't. Was trading for Williams an option? The Bears didn't think so. The Bears seem to think that the OTs had a down year and that a change in coaching/scheme, a starting level RG, and leaving Whitehair/Daniels alone, is enough to bring the OL back to a decent level. I guess we will see if it works.

When you look at it in its totality, it's not hard to understand the thought process that has gone into the OL.
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Re: Rd7 P226: OL Arlington Hambright, Colorado

Wed Apr 29, 2020 2:20 pm

dplank, no one is saying your wrong to want a better OL. The problem is, at least imo, your letting your dislike of the OL the Bears have cloud your judgement on if the Bears have put resources into it or not. And since they haven't made the moves you want, it is coming across as since they didn't do it this way the Bears are wrong. I don't know if thats your intention or not but its coming across that way.

Daniels and Whitehair are both second rounders who have graded out well at LG and C. I believe they both graded out well at those positions again when they switched back.

Kyle Long was a well paid guard who unfortunately injuries ended his career. Before that he was a Pro Bowler. Pace bet on him returning to form and lost. It happens. And he was a former 1st round pick.

Leno had a bad year, no one is arguing that. However before that he was an above average LT and those are not easy to find. He will never be a great LT but he was more than adequate previous seasons. Just because he was a 7th rounder doesn't change the fact that he played well as an NFL player. I remember one year where it was posted he graded out as like the 2nd best in the NFL. Also, and I think this was before you joined here, but wab HATES Leno. To the point and some members of the board bought him a Leno shirt as a joke because Leno had been playing so well before last season.

Massie I personally have always wanted to upgrade but hes not a terrible tackle. If the guard play is good or better Massie is serviceable. If it's not then he's not good enough to make up for it.

Basically, they have invested in the Oline. The players not being ones you like or moves you would have made doesn't change the fact that they have made efforts. Some have worked, some havent. I also think it was Pace that grabbed Sitton, a well respected guard before we drafted Daniels. Another example of them investing in OL. They've brought in former high draft picks hoping that scheme/coaching can bring out what the teams that drafted them failed to do. That is not a poor strategy even if you don't agree with it. And theres a pipeline of younger, albeit lower draft pick/UDFA's trying to find spots too. Sometimes those work, sometimes they don't.
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wab
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Re: Rd7 P226: OL Arlington Hambright, Colorado

Wed Apr 29, 2020 2:22 pm

It's true. I really do hate Leno.
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Yogi da Bear
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Re: Rd7 P226: OL Arlington Hambright, Colorado

Wed Apr 29, 2020 3:44 pm

Wab, that was an excellent delineation of our offensive line history under Pace. I had forgotten about Sitton, but that move at LG vividly illustrates Pace's GM philosophy. We brought in Fox and Pace got Sitton for him. Fox loved the power run game, and Sitton is the consummate mauler type. When Nagy came in, he dumped Sitton for the more athletic Whitehair.

And this is where I think things went off the rails. Massie is a Fox type tackle. He's a slow, plodding mauler. He's not athletic at all. Yeah, he improved greatly in 2018, but he was still not a good fit for Nagy's vision. Nagy needs athletic type OL rather than bruisers. I think that Hiestandt stuck his neck out for Massie and we resigned him to that ridiculous 30 mill contract. I do believe that's why HH is no longer there.
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Re: Rd7 P226: OL Arlington Hambright, Colorado

Wed Apr 29, 2020 4:37 pm

wab wrote:
Wed Apr 29, 2020 2:22 pm
It's true. I really do hate Leno.
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Chuck Pagano's defensive rankings in 6 years with Indy: 26th, 20th, 11th, 26th, 30th, and 30th.
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Mikefive
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Re: Rd7 P226: OL Arlington Hambright, Colorado

Thu Apr 30, 2020 10:06 am

wab wrote:
Wed Apr 29, 2020 2:17 pm
You just can't look at what the Bears have done on the OL in a vacuum.

Looking at the OL since Pace showed up tells a complete story
2015: The main need was at center - and the Bears draft Grasu in R3. He got hurt and didn't really pan out. Leno filled in for an injured Bushrod and looked like a 7th round steal. Slausen was a solid guard. Ducasse was "ok". Long was coming off of a pro bowl year and made the long awaited move to OT.

2016: Leno continued to play pretty well. The Bears drafted Whitehair in R2. Pace brought in Josh Sitton in favor of Slausen. Long moved back to guard after making the pro bowl as a RT. Massie was signed. Leno gets an extension in the offseason.

2017: For the first time in like a decade the Bears returned all 5 starters. They were considered one of the better OL's in the NFL. It fell apart a bit when Long got hurt and Grasu/Compton/Sowell were kind of a revolving door at RG. There was no reason to believe Long wouldn't come back just fine. The core of the OL was in their prime.

2018: Nagy comes in and the Bears draft Daniels in R2 to replace Sitton. Long gets hurt again in a fluke, and you could argue that the Bears should have started to get concerned about finding a replacement eventually - however they had just given him a bunch of money. Leno, Daniels, and Whitehair all make the pro bowl. Massie gets an extension and remains reasonably solid and is still only 29.

2019: Wheels fall off as both OT's under perform, Whitehair and Daniels switch spots to disastrous results, and Long gets hurt yet again. Lucas has to play 8 games, Coward is forced to play before he is ready, Larson has to play 2 games. We all know what happened.

Now is about the time that the Bears should realistically start looking at replacements for Leno and Massie...specifically Massie, and a long term solution at RG. Was this the draft to do it? Maybe. But they didn't. Was trading for Williams an option? The Bears didn't think so. The Bears seem to think that the OTs had a down year and that a change in coaching/scheme, a starting level RG, and leaving Whitehair/Daniels alone, is enough to bring the OL back to a decent level. I guess we will see if it works.

When you look at it in its totality, it's not hard to understand the thought process that has gone into the OL.
That's an excellent historical outlay. :thumbsup: I wouldn't have been able to do that without help. I bet you're significantly younger than I am. Or you have better past information resources? Like this message board? lol
Mikefive's theory: The only time you KNOW that a sports team player, coach or management member is being 100% honest is when they're NOT reciting "the company line".

Go back to leather helmets, NFL.
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Re: Rd7 P226: OL Arlington Hambright, Colorado

Thu Apr 30, 2020 10:36 am

It's a good history, but I do think you kind of need to treat the OL with the expectation that the "wheels will come off" . It's true really of every spot, but I think particularly with OL where there's 5 spots to fill every year. Anticipate future needs and keep that pipeline ready.

If I recall NO was a team that always sunk their attention to the interior OL. That seems to be Paces M.O. so far. Not sure thats intentional or not, but I wouldn't be surprised.
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wab
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Re: Rd7 P226: OL Arlington Hambright, Colorado

Thu Apr 30, 2020 12:48 pm

Mikefive wrote:
Thu Apr 30, 2020 10:06 am
wab wrote:
Wed Apr 29, 2020 2:17 pm
You just can't look at what the Bears have done on the OL in a vacuum.

Looking at the OL since Pace showed up tells a complete story
2015: The main need was at center - and the Bears draft Grasu in R3. He got hurt and didn't really pan out. Leno filled in for an injured Bushrod and looked like a 7th round steal. Slausen was a solid guard. Ducasse was "ok". Long was coming off of a pro bowl year and made the long awaited move to OT.

2016: Leno continued to play pretty well. The Bears drafted Whitehair in R2. Pace brought in Josh Sitton in favor of Slausen. Long moved back to guard after making the pro bowl as a RT. Massie was signed. Leno gets an extension in the offseason.

2017: For the first time in like a decade the Bears returned all 5 starters. They were considered one of the better OL's in the NFL. It fell apart a bit when Long got hurt and Grasu/Compton/Sowell were kind of a revolving door at RG. There was no reason to believe Long wouldn't come back just fine. The core of the OL was in their prime.

2018: Nagy comes in and the Bears draft Daniels in R2 to replace Sitton. Long gets hurt again in a fluke, and you could argue that the Bears should have started to get concerned about finding a replacement eventually - however they had just given him a bunch of money. Leno, Daniels, and Whitehair all make the pro bowl. Massie gets an extension and remains reasonably solid and is still only 29.

2019: Wheels fall off as both OT's under perform, Whitehair and Daniels switch spots to disastrous results, and Long gets hurt yet again. Lucas has to play 8 games, Coward is forced to play before he is ready, Larson has to play 2 games. We all know what happened.

Now is about the time that the Bears should realistically start looking at replacements for Leno and Massie...specifically Massie, and a long term solution at RG. Was this the draft to do it? Maybe. But they didn't. Was trading for Williams an option? The Bears didn't think so. The Bears seem to think that the OTs had a down year and that a change in coaching/scheme, a starting level RG, and leaving Whitehair/Daniels alone, is enough to bring the OL back to a decent level. I guess we will see if it works.

When you look at it in its totality, it's not hard to understand the thought process that has gone into the OL.
That's an excellent historical outlay. :thumbsup: I wouldn't have been able to do that without help. I bet you're significantly younger than I am. Or you have better past information resources? Like this message board? lol
I happen to spend an unhealthy amount of time on the makeup of the Bears roster each season, so I remember weird shit. Ask G08.
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wab
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Re: Rd7 P226: OL Arlington Hambright, Colorado

Thu Apr 30, 2020 12:51 pm

The Cooler King wrote:
Thu Apr 30, 2020 10:36 am
It's a good history, but I do think you kind of need to treat the OL with the expectation that the "wheels will come off" . It's true really of every spot, but I think particularly with OL where there's 5 spots to fill every year. Anticipate future needs and keep that pipeline ready.

If I recall NO was a team that always sunk their attention to the interior OL. That seems to be Paces M.O. so far. Not sure thats intentional or not, but I wouldn't be surprised.
I do agree that they should have had a more complete plan at RG going into last season. Putting that much faith into Long's health was a risk. One that bit them in the ass real hard.
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Re: Rd7 P226: OL Arlington Hambright, Colorado

Thu Apr 30, 2020 1:19 pm

The Cooler King wrote:
Thu Apr 30, 2020 10:36 am
If I recall NO was a team that always sunk their attention to the interior OL. That seems to be Paces M.O. so far. Not sure thats intentional or not, but I wouldn't be surprised.
This is absolutely true; there were several articles when Pace joined that he built the O line from the inside out. The thinking was that Brees was short and got the ball out quickly, so the play of the C and the Gs was more important than the play of the tackles.
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Re: Rd7 P226: OL Arlington Hambright, Colorado

Sun May 03, 2020 7:51 pm

They keep saying that on Pace/New Orleans

But they seem to spend good Tackle money and picks down that way too

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