Before Nagy, Jordan Howard WAS the offense. Now the Bears actually have more than just Jordan Howard.
We can't have our cake and have Howard run for 115 yards a game too.
So what's wrong and how do we fix the running game?
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Definitely. But it would be nice to see a little more consistent running game to burn clock with big leads.wab wrote:Before Nagy, Jordan Howard WAS the offense. Now the Bears actually have more than just Jordan Howard.
We can't have our cake and have Howard run for 115 yards a game too.
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1000% agree with this. But really he went from 18 apg last year to 16 earlier this year to around 14-15 as of now. So it's not like he shouldn't have better rushing yards then he actually does.wab wrote:Before Nagy, Jordan Howard WAS the offense. Now the Bears actually have more than just Jordan Howard.
We can't have our cake and have Howard run for 115 yards a game too.
All the same, I'll take the the 10ppg increase over the last few years where they struggled to score 20.
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OK. But I don't think it's too much to ask to have our cake and have Howard run for 4+ per carry for 15 touches a game.wab wrote:Before Nagy, Jordan Howard WAS the offense. Now the Bears actually have more than just Jordan Howard.
We can't have our cake and have Howard run for 115 yards a game too.
Mikefive's theory: The only time you KNOW that a sports team player, coach or management member is being 100% honest is when they're NOT reciting "the company line".
Go back to leather helmets, NFL.
Go back to leather helmets, NFL.
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What are you supposed to do when you have cake? Look at it? No offense to anyone, but always hated that saying.
I use, you can't have cake and ice cream too. Makes more sense to me.
I use, you can't have cake and ice cream too. Makes more sense to me.
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if you go by the saying, yes .... when you have it, you are looking at itOtis Day wrote:What are you supposed to do when you have cake? Look at it?
when you eat it, then there is no more cake unless you're counting stomach contents ... once eaten, you no longer have it
agreed ... my guess is it originated somewhere in England at a time long ago when they still thought wearing powdered wigs was a key fashion accessory ... and probably was uttered by a member of their inbred royaltyOtis Day wrote:No offense to anyone, but always hated that saying.
oh yeah? well what about ice cream cake?Otis Day wrote:I use, you can't have cake and ice cream too. Makes more sense to me.
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To me, I greatly value the ability to run the ball when you want to (i.e. bleed clock, etc). Our RBs are averaging 3.6 yards per carry... that's terrible. Jordan Howard himself is at 3.3. It's a huge concern in my book.Funkster wrote:Question: What’s wrong with the running game? Answer: Jordan Howard isn’t rushing for 100 yards per game.
That doesn’t mean the teams isn’t getting the job done, it’s now by committee. The bears are averaging 115 yards per game and have 10 rushing TD’s. As long as the team is moving the changes, controlling the TOP and scoring 29 PPG. Is there really a problem?
I’m a huge Howard fan, he’s my favorite offensive player but unfortunately I don’t see Nagy valuing his skill set. I don’t see him as a long term bear and that makes me sad.
It's more than possible to be an elite scoring offense and have your feature back average 4.0 YPC.
In this same offense, Kareem Hunt is averaging 4.6 yards per carry.
Here's the rest of the top 5 scoring offenses in the NFL:
Alvin Kamara is at 4.7
Mark Ingram is at 4.9
Todd Gurley is at 5.0.
Marlon Mack is at 5.1
Jordan Howard is at 3.3
One of these things is not like the others, bros
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G08 wrote:To me, I greatly value the ability to run the ball when you want to (i.e. bleed clock, etc). Our RBs are averaging 3.6 yards per carry... that's terrible. Jordan Howard himself is at 3.3. It's a huge concern in my book.Funkster wrote:Question: What’s wrong with the running game? Answer: Jordan Howard isn’t rushing for 100 yards per game.
That doesn’t mean the teams isn’t getting the job done, it’s now by committee. The bears are averaging 115 yards per game and have 10 rushing TD’s. As long as the team is moving the changes, controlling the TOP and scoring 29 PPG. Is there really a problem?
I’m a huge Howard fan, he’s my favorite offensive player but unfortunately I don’t see Nagy valuing his skill set. I don’t see him as a long term bear and that makes me sad.
It's more than possible to be an elite scoring offense and have your feature back average 4.0 YPC.
In this same offense, Kareem Hunt is averaging 4.6 yards per carry.
Here's the rest of the top 5 scoring offenses in the NFL:
Alvin Kamara is at 4.7
Mark Ingram is at 4.9
Todd Gurley is at 5.0.
Marlon Mack is at 5.1
Jordan Howard is at 3.3
One of these things is not like the others, bros
valid observations and taken by themselves paint a potentially troubling picture
but
perhaps this is simply by design? maybe the offense is geared so that it can be successful with the running game as an afterthought?
that sucks for Howard, because I think in a more conventional scheme he would likely be one of the top RB's in the league
Nagy is not big on being conventional ... but he does seem to be big on success ... and it is obvious the entire team is buying into what he is selling them ... and success is the result
all that said, I am guessing Nagy is also smart enough to have his cold weather package at the ready ... something with perhaps a bit more of a brute force in your face style rather than the finesse currently in vogue
bottom line is, I'm not worried ... I am happy to simply sit back and enjoy a level of comfortable success I have rarely known as a Bears fan, confident that the details required to continue it will get their due attention
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I think regardless of offensive scheme or however many points are being put up, you need to be able to run the ball, so I don't think this is by design. Truthfully, any time Nagy is asked about the run game in his pressers you can hear the sigh and frustration in his voice.
I'll say this... if we can figure out how to get Jordan Howard going, our offense is going to become THAT much more explosive. We are doing all this without the threat of the play action... imagine what Cohen/Gabriel etc can do with 8 men in the box trying to stop our run game.
I'll say this... if we can figure out how to get Jordan Howard going, our offense is going to become THAT much more explosive. We are doing all this without the threat of the play action... imagine what Cohen/Gabriel etc can do with 8 men in the box trying to stop our run game.
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Save for the Bears last game... The Bears have been toward the tops in the league in time of possession.
It's not tradional or what we're used to, but but Nagy has taken the teams current weakness & made it all work out nicely.
It's not tradional or what we're used to, but but Nagy has taken the teams current weakness & made it all work out nicely.
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For sure, and that's a huge testament to him as a play-caller. My worry is what if we have a playoff home game and it's a blizzard? We can't be running all these motions and complex routes to rely on our offense.Pagan wrote:Save for the Bears last game... The Bears have been toward the tops in the league in time of possession.
It's not tradional or what we're used to, but but Nagy has taken the teams current weakness & made it all work out nicely.
Not trying to be negative, but I just think if we had a run game our offense would be almost unstoppable.
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I don't disagree with anything you typed. Just asking a couple questions. Keep in mind I really like Jordan Howard.G08 wrote:For sure, and that's a huge testament to him as a play-caller. My worry is what if we have a playoff home game and it's a blizzard? We can't be running all these motions and complex routes to rely on our offense.Pagan wrote:Save for the Bears last game... The Bears have been toward the tops in the league in time of possession.
It's not tradional or what we're used to, but but Nagy has taken the teams current weakness & made it all work out nicely.
Not trying to be negative, but I just think if we had a run game our offense would be almost unstoppable.
What's more disruptive? Changing the blocking scheme and potentially personnel to get Howard more productive? Or trading Howard and drafting / signing / trading for an RB that's a more natural fit?
I say we either trade Howard or let him leave during FA and get a replacement.
wab mentioned Duke Johnson and a guy like that is perfect for this offense.
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Once there was smoke out there that Jordan Howard wasn't a fit for this offense, I was of the opinion the writing was on the wall. I think we'll keep him around for depth, but I'm anticipating that we will look for a RB either in FA or the draft.The Marshall Plan wrote:I don't disagree with anything you typed. Just asking a couple questions. Keep in mind I really like Jordan Howard.G08 wrote:For sure, and that's a huge testament to him as a play-caller. My worry is what if we have a playoff home game and it's a blizzard? We can't be running all these motions and complex routes to rely on our offense.Pagan wrote:Save for the Bears last game... The Bears have been toward the tops in the league in time of possession.
It's not tradional or what we're used to, but but Nagy has taken the teams current weakness & made it all work out nicely.
Not trying to be negative, but I just think if we had a run game our offense would be almost unstoppable.
What's more disruptive? Changing the blocking scheme and potentially personnel to get Howard more productive? Or trading Howard and drafting / signing / trading for an RB that's a more natural fit?
I say we either trade Howard or let him leave during FA and get a replacement.
wab mentioned Duke Johnson and a guy like that is perfect for this offense.
If he asked us to release him, and we did it out of decency, he'd cost us something like 63K
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I’d say there is a 0.0% chance we release him. At a minimum we can get a mid round pick out of him.G08 wrote:Once there was smoke out there that Jordan Howard wasn't a fit for this offense, I was of the opinion the writing was on the wall. I think we'll keep him around for depth, but I'm anticipating that we will look for a RB either in FA or the draft.The Marshall Plan wrote:I don't disagree with anything you typed. Just asking a couple questions. Keep in mind I really like Jordan Howard.G08 wrote:For sure, and that's a huge testament to him as a play-caller. My worry is what if we have a playoff home game and it's a blizzard? We can't be running all these motions and complex routes to rely on our offense.Pagan wrote:Save for the Bears last game... The Bears have been toward the tops in the league in time of possession.
It's not tradional or what we're used to, but but Nagy has taken the teams current weakness & made it all work out nicely.
Not trying to be negative, but I just think if we had a run game our offense would be almost unstoppable.
What's more disruptive? Changing the blocking scheme and potentially personnel to get Howard more productive? Or trading Howard and drafting / signing / trading for an RB that's a more natural fit?
I say we either trade Howard or let him leave during FA and get a replacement.
wab mentioned Duke Johnson and a guy like that is perfect for this offense.
If he asked us to release him, and we did it out of decency, he'd cost us something like 63K
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At the very least, Howard is saying all of the right things. And it's true. He ran out on the field for the Jackson TD celebration. Maybe the "disgruntled Jordan Howard" is a media creation?
What the old saying about winning...?
Howard - "We're winning, I'm happy."
What the old saying about winning...?
Howard - "We're winning, I'm happy."
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You're not being negative, you're just being correct.G08 wrote:For sure, and that's a huge testament to him as a play-caller. My worry is what if we have a playoff home game and it's a blizzard? We can't be running all these motions and complex routes to rely on our offense.Pagan wrote:Save for the Bears last game... The Bears have been toward the tops in the league in time of possession.
It's not tradional or what we're used to, but but Nagy has taken the teams current weakness & made it all work out nicely.
Not trying to be negative, but I just think if we had a run game our offense would be almost unstoppable.
If they had a more successful run game, it would be easier on Trubisky. If we had 2017's run production from Howard, then we are facing heavier fronts, a slightly lower percentage of nickel defenders (both leading to bigger windows and better potential mismatches) OR gnashing them and setting up Trubisky with a lot more 3rd and 1 or 3rd and 2 situations. That makes the playcalling much easier for Nagy as well. These situations being better also means Trubisky is scrambling less - IE being put in danger of a Smith-like cheapshot again.
Nagy has schemed REALLY well overall after a rough start to the season, but we also can't forget we have the best and most productive defense in the NFL as a crutch too. Offensive alone we are not a top 5 offense IMO, largely because our running game is barely mediocre. I'm not sure why Nagy or HH isn't utilizing more zone looks, you do not need to be exclusive with them. We don't have the same horsepower in the OL as we did when we had Kreutz and Co., but overall we are far more athletic now than we were then. Using Leno as an example, he has improved dramatically, but he isn't folding any DL or pushing them 5 yards deep. But he is mobile enough to stick to almost any DE for a few seconds to potentially open a lane or quick enough to crash down and hit a DT before he can burst through the gap. Why try to force a scheme that doesn't fit? The run game scheme preference doesn't have to cause issues with the passing game, if anything having a solid zone stretch play to rely on only increase RPO and playaction off that play.
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You don't have to be exclusive with the zone looks, true, but the 'bang for your buck' is much greater when you are. The key with zone blocking is that you make everything look the same to the defense whether it's a run or pass. Watch the Rams on offense, it's fucking beautiful. Ditto the old-school (ugh, I have to call the 90's Broncos old school now) Broncos with Elway and Davis.Sugashane wrote:I'm not sure why Nagy or HH isn't utilizing more zone looks, you do not need to be exclusive with them.
There has to be a reason why Nagy and Heistand want to stick with this scheme. It's a different approach and technique for the players. I don't know enough about OL play/blocking scheme continuity and it's fit in an offense's run and pass, especially when considering tipping off plays pre-snap.Sugashane wrote: We don't have the same horsepower in the OL as we did when we had Kreutz and Co., but overall we are far more athletic now than we were then. Using Leno as an example, he has improved dramatically, but he isn't folding any DL or pushing them 5 yards deep. But he is mobile enough to stick to almost any DE for a few seconds to potentially open a lane or quick enough to crash down and hit a DT before he can burst through the gap. Why try to force a scheme that doesn't fit? The run game scheme preference doesn't have to cause issues with the passing game, if anything having a solid zone stretch play to rely on only increase RPO and playaction off that play.
Nagy said he's going to use our mini-bye to find ways to make the run game work. I hope he's right!
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I don't think Howard is struggling with the blocking scheme. I think he's struggling with the RPO part. He just doesn't seem comfortable with it, so he's hesitating, and that's why the lanes are closing in.G08 wrote:You don't have to be exclusive with the zone looks, true, but the 'bang for your buck' is much greater when you are. The key with zone blocking is that you make everything look the same to the defense whether it's a run or pass. Watch the Rams on offense, it's fucking beautiful. Ditto the old-school (ugh, I have to call the 90's Broncos old school now) Broncos with Elway and Davis.Sugashane wrote:I'm not sure why Nagy or HH isn't utilizing more zone looks, you do not need to be exclusive with them.
There has to be a reason why Nagy and Heistand want to stick with this scheme. It's a different approach and technique for the players. I don't know enough about OL play/blocking scheme continuity and it's fit in an offense's run and pass, especially when considering tipping off plays pre-snap.Sugashane wrote: We don't have the same horsepower in the OL as we did when we had Kreutz and Co., but overall we are far more athletic now than we were then. Using Leno as an example, he has improved dramatically, but he isn't folding any DL or pushing them 5 yards deep. But he is mobile enough to stick to almost any DE for a few seconds to potentially open a lane or quick enough to crash down and hit a DT before he can burst through the gap. Why try to force a scheme that doesn't fit? The run game scheme preference doesn't have to cause issues with the passing game, if anything having a solid zone stretch play to rely on only increase RPO and playaction off that play.
Nagy said he's going to use our mini-bye to find ways to make the run game work. I hope he's right!
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He's struggled on straight handoffs too though. The holes he sees either aren't there or they close up extremely quickly. I personally hate that we are sacrificing his -- what I consider to be elite -- vision in a zone blocking scheme. Maybe we'll clean it up, I'll definitely be keeping more of an eye on it moving forward.wab wrote:I don't think Howard is struggling with the blocking scheme. I think he's struggling with the RPO part. He just doesn't seem comfortable with it, so he's hesitating, and that's why the lanes are closing in.G08 wrote:You don't have to be exclusive with the zone looks, true, but the 'bang for your buck' is much greater when you are. The key with zone blocking is that you make everything look the same to the defense whether it's a run or pass. Watch the Rams on offense, it's fucking beautiful. Ditto the old-school (ugh, I have to call the 90's Broncos old school now) Broncos with Elway and Davis.Sugashane wrote:I'm not sure why Nagy or HH isn't utilizing more zone looks, you do not need to be exclusive with them.
There has to be a reason why Nagy and Heistand want to stick with this scheme. It's a different approach and technique for the players. I don't know enough about OL play/blocking scheme continuity and it's fit in an offense's run and pass, especially when considering tipping off plays pre-snap.Sugashane wrote: We don't have the same horsepower in the OL as we did when we had Kreutz and Co., but overall we are far more athletic now than we were then. Using Leno as an example, he has improved dramatically, but he isn't folding any DL or pushing them 5 yards deep. But he is mobile enough to stick to almost any DE for a few seconds to potentially open a lane or quick enough to crash down and hit a DT before he can burst through the gap. Why try to force a scheme that doesn't fit? The run game scheme preference doesn't have to cause issues with the passing game, if anything having a solid zone stretch play to rely on only increase RPO and playaction off that play.
Nagy said he's going to use our mini-bye to find ways to make the run game work. I hope he's right!
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Three factors stand out to me as the biggest culprits for the #Bears’ run-game struggles. Two can’t be fixed this year — but does it really matter? Film Study:
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Three factors stand out to me as the biggest culprits for the #Bears’ run-game struggles. Two can’t be fixed this year — but does it really matter? Film Study:
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WHAT ARE THE FACTORS?G08 wrote:dan durkin
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Three factors stand out to me as the biggest culprits for the #Bears’ run-game struggles. Two can’t be fixed this year — but does it really matter? Film Study:
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I agree, personally I said a while before when it came out we were moving to a power scheme that I didn't care for our fit for it. Outside of Long and Whitehair I didn't think one person really could have benefited from the switch, and really I think they were better in that system too. I just assumed HH is not going to scrap it as that is his niche, so I'd take some more zone reads over none.G08 wrote:You don't have to be exclusive with the zone looks, true, but the 'bang for your buck' is much greater when you are. The key with zone blocking is that you make everything look the same to the defense whether it's a run or pass. Watch the Rams on offense, it's fucking beautiful. Ditto the old-school (ugh, I have to call the 90's Broncos old school now) Broncos with Elway and Davis.Sugashane wrote:I'm not sure why Nagy or HH isn't utilizing more zone looks, you do not need to be exclusive with them.
There has to be a reason why Nagy and Heistand want to stick with this scheme. It's a different approach and technique for the players. I don't know enough about OL play/blocking scheme continuity and it's fit in an offense's run and pass, especially when considering tipping off plays pre-snap.Sugashane wrote: We don't have the same horsepower in the OL as we did when we had Kreutz and Co., but overall we are far more athletic now than we were then. Using Leno as an example, he has improved dramatically, but he isn't folding any DL or pushing them 5 yards deep. But he is mobile enough to stick to almost any DE for a few seconds to potentially open a lane or quick enough to crash down and hit a DT before he can burst through the gap. Why try to force a scheme that doesn't fit? The run game scheme preference doesn't have to cause issues with the passing game, if anything having a solid zone stretch play to rely on only increase RPO and playaction off that play.
Nagy said he's going to use our mini-bye to find ways to make the run game work. I hope he's right!
Same here, I am looking at it in a very current mindset. They may have long-term objectives that this scheme fits, or might have several prospects in FA and the draft (in the middle rounds) that they think will thrive in a power scheme. I can't speak for them, but I can say so far that the change has been unerwhelming. The passblocking for several guys looks better though, HH clearly has been helping in that regard. Leno has improved much more than I expected, Whitehair seems to have bounced back from a rough sophmore year, Long looked much better (though that may have been due to finally being healthy), Massie looked like he could hold his own in more than a quick WC passing attack for once, etc. I hope Coward is making big strides as well.
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I believe many of the points here are very close or right on the money.
I still feel like it ultimately boils down to 2 factors:
1) The running game may suffer for the betterment of the passing games success (& the health/ development of the franchise QB
2) The ypc may not come till late season or even next year... but creating short passing & QB runs are just as effective in running the clock.
I still feel like it ultimately boils down to 2 factors:
1) The running game may suffer for the betterment of the passing games success (& the health/ development of the franchise QB
2) The ypc may not come till late season or even next year... but creating short passing & QB runs are just as effective in running the clock.
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I have one hell of a man crush on Jordan Howard.
This is not the team for him and I hope we trade him to a team that will use him( as long as it out of the NFC).
There is no fixing the run game. Nagy has shown he prefers to pass so we need to learn to deal with it. No matter how much he says he likes to run.
Trade Howard to allow him to be the player he should be. Love the guy but he does not fit Nagy's idea for an offense.
This is not the team for him and I hope we trade him to a team that will use him( as long as it out of the NFC).
There is no fixing the run game. Nagy has shown he prefers to pass so we need to learn to deal with it. No matter how much he says he likes to run.
Trade Howard to allow him to be the player he should be. Love the guy but he does not fit Nagy's idea for an offense.
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I agree with everything except saying that "no matter how much he says... he doesn't like to call run plays.."EricTighe wrote:I have one hell of a man crush on Jordan Howard.
This is not the team for him and I hope we trade him to a team that will use him( as long as it out of the NFC).
There is no fixing the run game. Nagy has shown he prefers to pass so we need to learn to deal with it. No matter how much he says he likes to run.
Trade Howard to allow him to be the player he should be. Love the guy but he does not fit Nagy's idea for an offense.
Nagy, who comes from the KC coaching line/system shows a very successful rushing game in this same system the past few years, at the least.
I'd say 1,400~1,900 yards & 12~15 TDs is loving them some run plays.
Let's keep in mind that this is still the very 1st year of this system & Nagy has been very forthright the entire way about where this team is vs where it will be in 3~5 years.
Again.. LOVE me some J. Howard also!
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For me it’s not that he doesn’t like calling run plays, it’s just that I simply feel he believes in the passing plays so much. He loves gaining huge chunks of yards quickly,
He quite obviously puts a lot of time, effort, care, love into play design and designing his play sheet. So much so that he is like that small child in the sweet shop who can’t wait to open the candy wrapper before he has even bought the candy.
You have to sell the run to open space up over the top In my book.
He quite obviously puts a lot of time, effort, care, love into play design and designing his play sheet. So much so that he is like that small child in the sweet shop who can’t wait to open the candy wrapper before he has even bought the candy.
You have to sell the run to open space up over the top In my book.
Have a great day
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I hear you.. that has def been the NFL standard on offense since, well.. the inception of offense.Bearfanuk wrote:For me it’s not that he doesn’t like calling run plays, it’s just that I simply feel he believes in the passing plays so much. He loves gaining huge chunks of yards quickly,
He quite obviously puts a lot of time, effort, care, love into play design and designing his play sheet. So much so that he is like that small child in the sweet shop who can’t wait to open the candy wrapper before he has even bought the candy.
You have to sell the run to open space up over the top In my book.
Football offenses have absolutely evolved though & I'm happy to say that the Bears are now ACTUALLY 1 of the few teams leading the way.
Tailor creating an offense scheme based on single opponent match ups & doing the opposite of what your opponent expects.
This will often mean.. NOT using the run to set up the pass.
Not what we're used to, but it IS working. It's just not yet firing on all cylinders just yet.
My hope is that the running game clicks (very very soon) WITH Jordan Howard & BEFORE the Bears get to the post season.
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I find it interesting that this was a post in response to Nagy's play calling during the playoffs last year. Maybe we should have seen this coming??
RustyTrubisky wrote:maybe nagy shouldnt have abandoned the run?MoFugger wrote:Sure, but how many offensive plays did they run in the second half? Like 7?RustyTrubisky wrote:IotaNet wrote:Not particularly impressive. No Kelcie = no production.Adipost wrote:It’s gonna be interesting to watch how Nagy’s offense does today.
yeahhhh, that took the shine off alittle bit.
you still have tyreek hill and kareem hunt, and alex smith is still having a career season and you lay an egg in the second half?
there were a few drops but, man i dunno.
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He defintely wants chunk/explosive plays. And Howard hasn't given him a reason to believe he can give him that consistantly througout the season.Bearfanuk wrote:For me it’s not that he doesn’t like calling run plays, it’s just that I simply feel he believes in the passing plays so much. He loves gaining huge chunks of yards quickly,
He quite obviously puts a lot of time, effort, care, love into play design and designing his play sheet. So much so that he is like that small child in the sweet shop who can’t wait to open the candy wrapper before he has even bought the candy.
You have to sell the run to open space up over the top In my book.
I cannot imagine how he doesn't look to find a RB either in the draft or in FA that can do what he's looking for.