Excited Delirium Over Fields

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IE
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RichH55 wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 4:02 pm
IE wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 3:43 pm

Because the assumption that he can't learn enough during the learning time he has now, will benefit from watching someone else learn by doing but HE can't learn by doing ... is a pretty bad one.

And the swimming analogy is really even worse.
Why wouldn't he know the playbook better in Week 6 than Week 1? Just curious - It's just more time to get ready

Why wouldn't getting some time to observe the actual nuts and bolts of everything in real games help?

He can learn by doing - and will learn by doing (at some point) - but the larger his base knowledge before that - the better IMHO.

It's going to be a bit of a whirlwind for ANY rookie - going from late April draft to playing - Everything is new - Everything (*). Entry into the facilities, housing market, etc. etc. Great and Small - but it all adds up

(*) Some of this might have been an advantage for Trevor Lawrence since he has basically known that he was going to Jacksonville since what? January ? You can do things like - get your housing set up earlier, etc - If Jacksonville didnt get him a playbook the day after Urban was hired , then they don't know what they are doing IMHO
These are all ridiculous and arbitrary arguments about degrees of learning and timeframes... SO many sketch assumptions on top of assumptions. And the housing thing is just... weird. Just give it up - everything you're saying is based on fear and "what if". You are simply afraid. Or just counter-arguing to be counter-arguing... which would be stupid.

Is Justin Fields smart enough and experienced enough from the high level he's already played and different offenses he's played in to absorb a significant portion of the playbook and be ready to play in September? Maybe. Probably. Will he be better than Dalton at that? Maybe. Is he mentally equipped for the challenge? Seemingly. Would/could he potentially bring more to the table than Dalton in terms of what he can do and succeed at even IF he only absorbed 80% of what Dalton has? Maybe - but you'd never admit it. It is interesting how focused you are on all the Fields "may not be able to do" versus what he almost certainly can do. Again - it is either fear or just being difficult and unpleasant.

Your opinion is never humble.
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Yogi da Bear wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 4:09 pm
dplank wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 8:17 am This is truly awful. There is absolutely, positively, beyond any shadow of a doubt NO FRIGGIN WAY that franchise would knowingly put their franchise rookie QB's development at risk just to draw some extra fans in the first few weeks of the season. NO. WAY. This is one of those "you've only thought a half inch deep" theories, if you just take a minute to think a tiny bit deeper you'll see how absolutely wrong this is. Did they bring in Tebow for fans? Yes. Would they knowingly risk the future of their franchise for more early season ticket sales? Of course not. They just proved this when they purposely tanked an entire season last year to get him, why would they turn around and risk his (according to your theory) health and impede his development as a player just for a few weeks to start the season when they could ease him in to the lineup as you are suggesting with Fields?
And yet this is EXACTLY what the Texans under Dom Capers did with David Carr in his rookie season. Even worse, it was the Texans inaugural season so he was playing behind a patchwork line that included two rookies and three castoffs from other teams that those other teams didn't protect in the expansion draft. It also included a rookie RB, FB, WR, and TE all starting. The only veteran skill position player they started was Corey Bradford, a fifth rounder claimed from the Packers. They had veteran QBs Tony Banks and Michael Quinn on their roster so they could have gone in another direction. Instead they started Carr and although they beat Dallas opening day, Carr was sacked six times that game and forced to run another four times and threw for only 145 yards. For the season he was sacked 76 times! An NFL record. He also has the record for the third most sacks in a season with 68.

So don't tell me that there's absolutely no friggin' way that a team would put their #1 pick QB at risk by starting him opening day, when it has ACTUALLY happened.
Again you misunderstood my point. I’m not saying that didn’t happen to Carr, I’m saying there’s no way that Capers thought “Well fuck it, we might ruin the kid but we needs butts in the stands”. That’s ludicrous. The more obvious answer is he thought he’d learn better by playing and didn’t think he’d get destroyed out there - or of course he wouldn’t have done it. The fact that he was wrong doesn’t refute this specific point one bit. Are you able to follow the logic tree here?
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Yogi da Bear wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 4:10 pm
IE wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 3:43 pm

Because the assumption that he can't learn enough during the learning time he has now, will benefit from watching someone else learn by doing but HE can't learn by doing ... is a pretty bad one.

And the swimming analogy is really even worse.
Except that BOTH Darnold and Mahomes have said otherwise, and I've already quoted them both in this thread as to that fact.
Yep - and it's kind of common sense too

Does anyone think that Fields won't know the Playbook better in Week 8 than Week 1 - especially if he's also not working on that weeks install as the #1 (on Reps - well I think he should actually take way, way more than a #2 even if on the bench)


And if it helps just sub "Rookie" for Fields - its more or less true across the board.
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JACKSONVILLE, Fla. -- Jacksonville Jaguars quarterback Trevor Lawrence sat out several drills during Tuesday's organized team activity with some left hamstring tightness, but the issue isn't considered serious.

Coach Urban Meyer said Lawrence should be fine for Thursday's OTA. The Jaguars are off on Wednesday. They have their mandatory three-day minicamp next week.

Lawrence did not participate in red zone or two-minute drills but did participate in several snaps during 7-on-7s and threw two pick-sixes. Those were part of a four-interception day by the defense, though not all came against Lawrence.
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dplank wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 5:18 pm
Yogi da Bear wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 4:09 pm

And yet this is EXACTLY what the Texans under Dom Capers did with David Carr in his rookie season. Even worse, it was the Texans inaugural season so he was playing behind a patchwork line that included two rookies and three castoffs from other teams that those other teams didn't protect in the expansion draft. It also included a rookie RB, FB, WR, and TE all starting. The only veteran skill position player they started was Corey Bradford, a fifth rounder claimed from the Packers. They had veteran QBs Tony Banks and Michael Quinn on their roster so they could have gone in another direction. Instead they started Carr and although they beat Dallas opening day, Carr was sacked six times that game and forced to run another four times and threw for only 145 yards. For the season he was sacked 76 times! An NFL record. He also has the record for the third most sacks in a season with 68.

So don't tell me that there's absolutely no friggin' way that a team would put their #1 pick QB at risk by starting him opening day, when it has ACTUALLY happened.
Again you misunderstood my point. I’m not saying that didn’t happen to Carr, I’m saying there’s no way that Capers thought “Well fuck it, we might ruin the kid but we needs butts in the stands”. That’s ludicrous. The more obvious answer is he thought he’d learn better by playing and didn’t think he’d get destroyed out there - or of course he wouldn’t have done it. The fact that he was wrong doesn’t refute this specific point one bit. Are you able to follow the logic tree here?
And my point is that they probably didn't even think about it. They just thought we need to make an impression for our fan base. Capers probably knew there was a risk with Carr with six other rookies starting and four castoffs. But they were playing Dallas, and he really wanted to win. They did, and they won three other games that year, but at what cost? If Meyer is willing to bring Tebow back for the fans, I'm sure he's willing to start Lawrence. Probably isn't even thinking about any possible risk to him, and they are NOT playing the number one defense in the league at their place. He might have second thoughts if they were.
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AZ_Bearfan wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 10:51 pm
Queue a five paragraph article from Sports MOCKERY analyzing Fields' ability to take a snap to the nth degree and ripping him a new asshole for it.
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AZ_Bearfan wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 10:51 pm
Think Trey Lance is demonstrating that kind of leadership at this point? All rookies are not the same. Hasty generalization and appeals to common sense are fallacious arguments.
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Trey Lance was the biggest blunder of the draft. Can't believe the Niners gave up three first rounders for him. I would have NOT been at all happy if we had traded up to #11 for Lance. The guy has almost no experience, and what he does have, he had in basically a high school offense. I can't wait to see that QB run up the middle in the NFL.

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Totally agreed, Yogi. I really like the kid and hope he works out OK for his sake. Last year when the Bears were in the range of picking between 10-15 I thought he'd be a really good pick. Of course at that time the assumption was Fields would be going to the Jags, with the Jets picking Lawrence first. Poor Jets I think winning really hurt them too. I see Wilson as being the other huge potential bust because he's played nobody. You think Fields or Lawrence would have lost to Coastal Carolina? Um... no.
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IE wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 6:53 am
AZ_Bearfan wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 10:51 pm
Think Trey Lance is demonstrating that kind of leadership at this point? All rookies are not the same. Hasty generalization and appeals to common sense are fallacious arguments.
Why did Trey drop 3 snaps yesterday or something?

What else you going on besides common sense and hasty generalization - You been privy to Fields in the Meeting Rooms or Practices?!?!?

If so - would love to hear that
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1: Fields got signed



2: Fields had his own issues working under center

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UOK wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 10:04 am 1: Fields got signed

Hell yeah! Not that it was ever in doubt, but feels good!!
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UOK wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 10:04 am 1: Fields got signed

For reference, Mekhi Becton was the 11th overall pick in 2020 and received:

4 years/$18.446 million. Signing bonus was $10,975,308.


For what we hope to be a franchise QB, this is SWEET
Last edited by G08 on Thu Jun 10, 2021 10:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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This has Flynn/Wilson written all over it, doesn't it?
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RichH55 wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:46 am What else you going on besides common sense and hasty generalization - You been privy to Fields in the Meeting Rooms or Practices?!?!?

If so - would love to hear that
This is one of the funniest posts I've seen in a long time - an actual argument FOR being illogical, given a lack of evidence. ROFL!

:shocked: :roll: :lol:
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Except Flynn was signed for a multiple year deal. The Rifle is only under contract for this year.

The real 3rd wheel here is Nick Foles - who apparently turned down* a trade back to Philadelphia. Would love to ship him off to the J-E-T-S, but no idea if he'd be willing to accept that.

* apparently there was a threat he wouldn't report and Philly said thanks, but no thanks.
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Fields is now signed per reports, a little over $18M fully guaranteed.
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Yogi da Bear wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 8:40 am Trey Lance was the biggest blunder of the draft. Can't believe the Niners gave up three first rounders for him. I would have NOT been at all happy if we had traded up to #11 for Lance. The guy has almost no experience, and what he does have, he had in basically a high school offense. I can't wait to see that QB run up the middle in the NFL.

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I was thinking Pitts was the worst pick for the high firsts, but I totally forgot about the Lance trade. At least Atlanta held onto their picks.
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The Marshall Plan wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:02 pm
Yogi da Bear wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 8:40 am Trey Lance was the biggest blunder of the draft. Can't believe the Niners gave up three first rounders for him. I would have NOT been at all happy if we had traded up to #11 for Lance. The guy has almost no experience, and what he does have, he had in basically a high school offense. I can't wait to see that QB run up the middle in the NFL.

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I was thinking Pitts was the worst pick for the high firsts, but I totally forgot about the Lance trade. At least Atlanta held onto their picks.
Any chance - at all - this might just be jumping the gun - just a touch?

Maybe?
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Additionally North Dakota actually runs a decent Pro-Style friendly offense

The lack of experience? Especially since they had one game this year? That's a fair critique

The rest not so much - especially the treating it as a done deal
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I think the challenge the 9ers have with Trey Lance is if they don't play him this year, he will have played in 1 football game since 2019.

Jimmy G's leash is even shorter than The Rifle's .... and his cap hit is $26.3MM this year.
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RichH55 wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 3:14 pm
The Marshall Plan wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:02 pm

I was thinking Pitts was the worst pick for the high firsts, but I totally forgot about the Lance trade. At least Atlanta held onto their picks.
Any chance - at all - this might just be jumping the gun - just a touch?

Maybe?
Who would Lance have to perform as to be worth 3 firsts? Watson? Mahomes?

Are you saying he's going to be at that level?
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The Marshall Plan wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 5:45 pm
RichH55 wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 3:14 pm

Any chance - at all - this might just be jumping the gun - just a touch?

Maybe?
Who would Lance have to perform as to be worth 3 firsts? Watson? Mahomes?

Are you saying he's going to be at that level?

Well I guess my main point is that maybe Day 2 of OTAs might be too early to tell anything?

But wouldn't that have been true if they picked Fields too? Since everyone has Fields as a no doubt HOFer seemingly - probably smarter!

Do you want to fold it into the entirety of the 49ers game plan - Ok. They did last year have an additional 1st Round pick (though nothing in Rounds 2/3 from what I see)

Short and sweet answer - Any QB they drafted there after the trade up needs to be quite good to justify the pick and trade up

Maholmes level though? Of course not. He has a chance to be the greatest of all time. If Trey Lance is somehow the 10th best QB ever - he probably falls short of Maholmes


In looking over the 49ers roster - It's pretty good. That Trey Sermon pick was an absolute steal. OL is good, maybe the best TE in the game? Aiyuk needs to show more but I like Deebo - Pro Bowl FB too

Defense has potentially monster DL - I could see corner being an issue especially if Verrett doesnt stay healthy

Might be able to recoup a draft pick for Jimmy G - which I think probably plays into this mindset

Team starts to get expensive after the 2022 season - thats when they have decisions to make - having a guy on a Rookie Contract would considerably help that


But yes - any time you draft a QB Top 15 its a big thing for the team and a Trade Up only makes its a tougher proposition
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This from WCG mimics my take on Fields timetable/criteria for starting. I realize this writer has no more cred than any of us on this board, but think he articulates it well.
I would absolutely be comfortable with the Bears starting Fields ….. purely hinged to one simple thing — Does Fields look ready?

That’s something I’ve talked about quite a bit since he was drafted. In 2017, most (including myself) were more focused on Mitchell Trubisky looking better than Mike Glennon, rather than actually looking ready to start an NFL regular season game. In reviewing my overall evaluation of Trubisky and what went wrong, that stands at the top of the list.

Fields doesn’t need to just be better than Andy Dalton, he needs to look like he’s an NFL quarterback. Obviously all rookies will struggle in certain areas, but for me to feel comfortable with Fields starting, I want to see most of what I saw from him at Ohio State. A strong presence on the field, command of the huddle (this will be new for him), making the proper reads and him understanding (to a certain degree) what defenses are throwing at him top the list for me. The latter is something that Trubisky still struggles with and speaks to a lack of mental development.

All in all, I believe the Bears got the full package with Fields. He’s a strong-armed, athletic quarterback that is extremely focused and very smart. I personally believe he’ll be ready Week 1 (although I don’t believe he’ll start Week 1), but he still needs to pass the eye test. The offensive line will play a part in that, but the mental development is my biggest key in comfort with Fields.
I think this is correct. My Dalton barometer is simply a way of seeing if he’s mentally ready or not, because I like Dalton and think that sets a pretty high bar for Fields to pass MENTALLY.
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RichH55 wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 6:44 pm
The Marshall Plan wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 5:45 pm

Who would Lance have to perform as to be worth 3 firsts? Watson? Mahomes?

Are you saying he's going to be at that level?

Well I guess my main point is that maybe Day 2 of OTAs might be too early to tell anything?

But wouldn't that have been true if they picked Fields too? Since everyone has Fields as a no doubt HOFer seemingly - probably smarter!

Do you want to fold it into the entirety of the 49ers game plan - Ok. They did last year have an additional 1st Round pick (though nothing in Rounds 2/3 from what I see)

Short and sweet answer - Any QB they drafted there after the trade up needs to be quite good to justify the pick and trade up

Maholmes level though? Of course not. He has a chance to be the greatest of all time. If Trey Lance is somehow the 10th best QB ever - he probably falls short of Maholmes


In looking over the 49ers roster - It's pretty good. That Trey Sermon pick was an absolute steal. OL is good, maybe the best TE in the game? Aiyuk needs to show more but I like Deebo - Pro Bowl FB too

Defense has potentially monster DL - I could see corner being an issue especially if Verrett doesnt stay healthy

Might be able to recoup a draft pick for Jimmy G - which I think probably plays into this mindset

Team starts to get expensive after the 2022 season - thats when they have decisions to make - having a guy on a Rookie Contract would considerably help that


But yes - any time you draft a QB Top 15 its a big thing for the team and a Trade Up only makes its a tougher proposition

Yeah, the 49'ers needed to draft a QB because Jimmy G is not the answer.

The problem is that they potentially massively overpaid and fucked their draft for almost half a decade.

Hindsight is 20/20, but the offset to that is they get paid millions of dollars per year to know shit like this and they blew it.

Who got the better deal?

The 49'ers moving up from 12 to 3 at a cost of 3 first round picks to take Trey Lance.

OR

The Bears moving up from 21 to 11 at a cost of 2 firsts, a fourth and a fifth to take Justin Fields.

If the 49'ers didn't panic and held fast like Pace did, they could've moved up to 11 from 12 at a significantly lower price and gotten, in my opinion, a much better QB.

Pace had DIAMOND HANDS and didn't panic. He played that draft like a harp.
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Plank - you were Olineman, right? In your experience, how can the quarterback impact the play of the Oline? Of course anyone else with significant Oline experience can chime in too (I don't think that includes high school....lol).

Getting right to the point, I've said a few times that I believe the Oline could actually perform better when Fields gets in the game. The thinking is his athleticism will buy them *just a little* more time protecting him, and his arm and legs will help keep the D more honest, and then on top of that the simple emotional rush and excitement over "getting on with the future - an expected bright future" could have a real impact on their intensity, focus, and such.

Am I wrong? The reason I'm asking is because several have mentioned "Oline showing readiness" as an entrance criteria for Fields, and I see it as potentially a bit the opposite.
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For me it's simple:
Fields has shown that he can make all the throws with accuracy, and has shown that he can play at a high level in high stress situations against elite competition.
If he feels comfortable with the playbook, AND the coaches feel comfortable with him running the offense, then he should start because Dalton has been garbage for the last 3 years.
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IE wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 6:58 am Plank - you were Olineman, right? In your experience, how can the quarterback impact the play of the Oline? Of course anyone else with significant Oline experience can chime in too (I don't think that includes high school....lol).

Getting right to the point, I've said a few times that I believe the Oline could actually perform better when Fields gets in the game. The thinking is his athleticism will buy them *just a little* more time protecting him, and his arm and legs will help keep the D more honest, and then on top of that the simple emotional rush and excitement over "getting on with the future - an expected bright future" could have a real impact on their intensity, focus, and such.

Am I wrong? The reason I'm asking is because several have mentioned "Oline showing readiness" as an entrance criteria for Fields, and I see it as potentially a bit the opposite.
As an O lineman I can say the the QB can do a lot to hurt or help the O line
-he can use a different cadence and not tell the O line beforehand (not go on a different hut, but vary the way he says hut, like a hard count)
-he can roll into a blocked D lineman and get sacked because he was stupid
-he can call the wrong protection at the line and make the O line look bad
-he can fail to recognize that D lineman X is eating O lineman Y's lunch and not adjust by stepping up away from pressure or trying to get rid of the ball on time/early
-This one is hard because its the O line's job to block. But when there is a simple overmatch, the QB should adjust where he sets up and realize that there is a violent expiration time on every play.
-He can simply hold the ball too long. I touched on this above, but blocking is like covering for DB's. Given enough time, Coverage and blocking will break down.
-On running plays, he can simply pick the wrong hole. Defenses will stack at certain points, and the QB needs to recognize that and adjust the run to the right spot.
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Atkins&Rebel wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:22 am
IE wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 6:58 am Plank - you were Olineman, right? In your experience, how can the quarterback impact the play of the Oline? Of course anyone else with significant Oline experience can chime in too (I don't think that includes high school....lol).

Getting right to the point, I've said a few times that I believe the Oline could actually perform better when Fields gets in the game. The thinking is his athleticism will buy them *just a little* more time protecting him, and his arm and legs will help keep the D more honest, and then on top of that the simple emotional rush and excitement over "getting on with the future - an expected bright future" could have a real impact on their intensity, focus, and such.

Am I wrong? The reason I'm asking is because several have mentioned "Oline showing readiness" as an entrance criteria for Fields, and I see it as potentially a bit the opposite.
As an O lineman I can say the the QB can do a lot to hurt or help the O line
-he can use a different cadence and not tell the O line beforehand (not go on a different hut, but vary the way he says hut, like a hard count)
-he can roll into a blocked D lineman and get sacked because he was stupid
-he can call the wrong protection at the line and make the O line look bad
-he can fail to recognize that D lineman X is eating O lineman Y's lunch and not adjust by stepping up away from pressure or trying to get rid of the ball on time/early
-This one is hard because its the O line's job to block. But when there is a simple overmatch, the QB should adjust where he sets up and realize that there is a violent expiration time on every play.
-He can simply hold the ball too long. I touched on this above, but blocking is like covering for DB's. Given enough time, Coverage and blocking will break down.
-On running plays, he can simply pick the wrong hole. Defenses will stack at certain points, and the QB needs to recognize that and adjust the run to the right spot.
Yep - understand all the ways that a QB can potentially undermine the Oline (or the offense's success). To me, that comes down to "readiness"... those are the things that can't surface too much or everyone looks bad.

I'm looking for a different angle, and to clarify what I was meaning I'll say "a change in quarterback" - can a change in quarterback actually inspire or enable an Oline to play BETTER? Let's say all the things you mentioned are pretty much equal - no "operational mistakes" differences, and the major difference being the guy that is coming in may be able to give them an extra half second and complete more difficult throws and also be more of an athletic threat that does keep the D more on their heels. Could an Oline legitimately play better because of that, and could believing in a potential higher level of success inspire them to play better/harder? They're human and like all humans are going to be more excited if they have the prospect of being more successful. No?

If I'
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